Loophole: Communications

[sunflower]

Skrall approved.

[a goose]

A Vorox named Vorox? Well now you're just being silly

You calle- Oh, wait. Vorox. As opposed to Vorex. Nevermind. As you were.

Also, I would support a Skrall civil rights movement. As for a Kra-Toa movement... you can keep your eyes open.

 

Also, Skrall is approved. The new Skrall. Above my post. It's approved. Not the other Skralls. They're already approved. But this one isn't. Although at this point it technically is.

Well, my internet hates me today.

 

- Vorex

Edited January 7, 2013 by Simply Vorex

[sunflower]

Hm, this whole Skrall thing is starting to get interesting.

 

Who's for a Staff controled caravan to raid? Who knows, it might have some goodies inside. Just the sort of thing rebels enjoy getting.

[Blessed Blade]

I'd be up for it. =PVorex: Nicely done. =P

[Legolover-361]

Once again, you guys post too fast/much. =P

Be glad Loophole isn't a repeat of both Techna RPGs.

[Havelock Vetinari]

I'm up for a raid. Every revolution starts somewhere!

[a goose]

Alright, here's something I've been waiting to do for a while...

Black parts are not on the actual census file.

 

 

Name: Kernon

Gender: Male

Species: Toa (Light)

Kanohi: Mahiki (Actually an Avsa)

Appearance: Average height for a Toa. White and gold, with icy blue eyes and some gold on his white mask.

Powers: Light, the various draining powers of the Avsa

Weapons: A staff which he uses to direct his Elemental powers.

Abilities: Although he isn't particularly strong, Kernon is very good with his elemental powers, to the point where he can believably mimic the powers of a Mahiki. Also, he has had enough practice with his Avsa that he can drain from beings somewhat faster than most other Avsa users (of which there are few), although he avoids using the Avsa in public, as he has a reputation to keep up. He is also quite quick and agile.

Weaknesses: Not very physically strong.

Occupations: PR Advisor for the Mata Magna Council. Part of the Society for the Rights of Shadow Elementals.

Personality: Kernon is charming and intelligent, dedicating himself to helping others. He is always willing to go to the aid of someone in need. However, he is easily angered, losing control of himself in fits of rage at sometimes the smallest of things. He blames it on stress and the time he spent as a Shadow Matoran in Karda Nui.

History: Kernon lived in Karda Nui, and was turned into a Shadow Matoran by Makuta like the others. He came out if it with not fear, hatred, or greater respect of beings of Shadow, but believing that they are equal to all other beings. The way they were looked down on disgusted him, and he decided to help all of those who were considered worthless. He set up charities, he gave money to charities, he did everything he could. But the one thing he couldn't accomplish was freeing beings of Shadow from society's prejudice. However, soon enough he began to make plans to accomplish this...

On Mata Magna, he became the PR Advisor to the Council.

 

- Vorex

[Blessed Blade]

Once again, you guys post too fast/much. =P

Be glad Loophole isn't a repeat of both Techna RPGs.

 

You mean to say it isn't? =O=P Though really, it seems to be going fast. Just not the speed of sound like the last Techna's earlier days. =P

[Light]

Approved Vorex.

[Silvan Haven]

I would just like to point out that in Bionicle, shadow is evil, not neutral.

[Relapse]

Which technically makes him a villain.Boom.

[thelonewander]

A profile for approval

 

 

 

1. Name:Salamon
2. Gender:Male
3. Species:Toa of Plasma
4. Kanohi: Kanohi Matatu, Mask of Telekinesis
5. Appearance:Salamon stands at about 6 feet 5 inches, a fairly average height. He wears a Matatu, which is in the shape of a Kanohi Faxon. He is always in combat gear, with it matching his natural colors. His upper arms are a dark orange,while the bottom of his arms are white. His legs follow the same. His torso is white and orange mixed underneath, but the armor is black on the chest area.
6. Powers: Being a Toa of Plasma, he has control over plasma, normally channeling it into spheres and hurling them at enemies. Has control over telekinesis due to his mask.
7. Weapons: A normal sword, with a slightly curved hilt, to allow for a better draw and faster swing. Also has a pistol he uses to channel his elemental energy.These are his Toa tools
8. Abilities: Is very good with his sword, almost a master, and is a crack shot with his pistol. Knows the laws, being an ex-cop, and has the training of one, and knows how to get away with murder
9. Weaknesses: Tends to be over aggressive in combat, using more force then necessary, which tends to paint him in a bad light with others who have heard of him, like other police officers
10. Occupations: Works at the First Mata Manga bank as a part of the security detail. Unofficially, he works as a mercenary for the highest bidder. He won't do some jobs though if they go against his morals.
11. Personality: Fairly easy going, nice to people, and loyal to his friends. It does take a bit to anger Salamon, but once angered, he won't calm down quickly. When he's fighting, he will show no mercy.
12. History: Salamon was matoran on Metru-Nui, living with the Ta-Metru citizens. While he couldn't work a forge, he learned how to use a sword well, and became part of the Ta-Metru Guard. When the Mata-Nui robot crashed onto Bara-Manga, He found a toa stone. Using it, he became a toa not long after the city of Mata-Manga was established. Joining the police force quickly, he worked there for about 200 years. He was able to use his “questionable methods” for a while, but eventually the pulled him off for excessive aggressiveness. Now, he works at the main city bank as security. On the less legal side of things, he works a mercenary for hire. He still had morals though, and won't do some jobs, even if they pay a good bit of widgets

Edited January 7, 2013 by thelonewander

[Havelock Vetinari]

I would just like to point out that in Bionicle, shadow is evil, not neutral.

 

Actually, according to the wiki, it was considered a neutral force. Only after the Brotherhood started cackling with mad glee and rubbing their hands together did it acquire a negative stigma.

 

I've always found the notion that certain powers/abilities/whatevers in fiction are always evil silly anyhow. Is a pick axe evil? Is a gun? A sword? Of course not. How it is used is what matters.

Edited January 7, 2013 by Basilisk

[Light]

Approved lone.Shadow itself is a neutral force, but inner darkness is considered evil. Like the Makuta "purged their inner light".

Edited January 7, 2013 by Toa Kaithas

[Havelock Vetinari]

Ah. Western thought and your misconception that the absence of light represents something evil. Really, without darkness we'd all fry. The light isn't exactly a kind mistress.

 

....It occurs to me this might break the arguement clause. Uh. Shutting up now. Just seems like a rather arbitary limit on character development. Maybe I'm missing something.

 

Look! A Skrall!

Edited January 7, 2013 by Basilisk

[Krayzikk]

Actually, since LL approved my profile, and the explanation therein, it is Loophole canon that an absence of light merely means neutrality. An absence of moral pull.

[Relapse]

To clarify, argue all you want. Silly arguments, like whether or not "susceptible to stab wounds" should be put as a weakness is what gets me.

[Silvan Haven]

That seems a bit lopsided. I do know that BS01 says that beings are more likely to be pulled towards darkness then light.

[Krayzikk]

It's a well known fact that Kra-Toa lack any moral, light, if you will. But the assumption born of that is that they are automatically evil. As Tieran can attest, it is simply not the case. The moral light will overrule the moral darkness eight times out of ten. Most people naturally lean toward the right side of things. When that light is removed, the metaphorical scales are balanced. Not inherently good, not inherently evil. The reputation of Kra-Toa for being evil comes from two primary factors. The first is that most of them were created while the Brotherhood of Makuta was in its prime, intended to be soldiers. They learned how to be evil. The other factor, is the pragmatic attitude that comes with a neutral outlook on life.

 

 

This was the paragraph approved by LL, from one of my profiles.

[Light]

I just said it's "considered" evil. I never said I thought it was. And in the kind of place the island of Mata Nui was, light means warmth, fire, civilization. Of course, as Krayzikk said, this is Loophole, not the Bionicle canon.

[sunflower]

Moral shadow/darkness is different from the absence of light. In fact, there is actually a "shadow energy" in Bionicle that Makuta/Kra-Toa manipulate (seeing as they can't manipulate nothing). Just as Ko-Toa manipulate "cold energy". Because of the fact that all moral light has to be drained and replaced with moral shadow in order for a Kra-Toa/Matoran to be created, they're essentially programmed to be evil. I prefer to think of moral light/shadow to both a controler and indicator of their moral status.

 

Its actually quite simple, the more moral darkness one has, the "eviler" they are. The more moral light they have, the "gooder" they are. To be balanced, they have to have equal amounts of both moral shadow and light. Any more either which way, and they're already more inclined towards good or evil.

[Krayzikk]

But by that same logic, the presence of light overrules darkness, just like when heat is present cold isn't. So the removal of light would serve mostly to balance the scales, with a slight leaning toward evil.

 

Especially since Makuta in canon lack moral light, but they were not evil from the start. They changed later.

[Silvan Haven]

Makuta have been evil for as long as we know, its just that they got rid of the rest of their moral light on purpose.

[Havelock Vetinari]

That logic. It does not flow. If a being is good enough to have "moral light" in the first place, wouldn't that light prevent them from attempting the ultimate act of evil-removing the good in themselves?

 

Plus it would require the Great Beings to be so very dim. "Let's make our elite guard out of the very substance of evil! This will never backfire!"

Edited January 8, 2013 by Basilisk

[Krayzikk]

Which is exactly why moral darkness is not inherently evil. Leaning closer to it, sure. But not inherently evil. Makuta likely lacked some of the moral compunctions of the rest so they could do their job, thus the slightly less moral leaning.

 

Moral shadow only became stereotypically evil with the Brotherhood's defection. And subsequent Kra-Toa leaned to evil because of BoM teachings, rather than inherent lack of morality.

[Havelock Vetinari]

You speak sense. It's the only thing that let's the Great Beings come off as anything near intelligent.

[Silvan Haven]

It would prevent them from doing it if they had enough moral light. Obviously the Makuta did not.

 

The Great Beings were not expecting the inhabitants of the Matoran Universe to develop personalities in the first place. Guessing what is going to happen 50,000 years into the future is not exactly easy.

[Havelock Vetinari]

Expecting a race of beings that could build a giant robot bigger then a moon to know that there is substance of pure evil in the universe is also unreasonable I take it? Even if they used it to build a race?

 

Seriously. It doesn't add up.

[Krayzikk]

.............

 

There are some serious logical flaws there. I'll start with one of the more egregious.

 

So, you're saying the Matoran weren't built to be sapient in the first place? I doubt that. Seeing as the Makuta were explicitly stated as sapient pre-Shattering, that indicates the Matoran were as well. Which means that point falls flat on its face.

 

Second, that would be like me building a computer with an AI on the same level as a human, and then not building in any moral inhibitions, because "Oh, it won't betray me. Nothing will go wrong, ever." And if they came with some moral light, then they shouldn't have been able to break free and go complete inner darkness in the first place.

[Havelock Vetinari]

In short, there are two choices: "Shadow isn't evil. Inner Shadow is isn't evil."

 

Or

 

"The Great Beings were complete and utter fools despite designing a plethora of races and ecosystems. Oh. And a giant robot."

Edited January 8, 2013 by Basilisk

[25K Now!]

tl:dr

 

The Great Beings did it.

[Toa Levacius Zehvor]

Guys, guys. Guys. Guys. Guys. Guys, guys, guys. Listen. To. Me. I will clear all of your problems away with my wasted brain space.

 

The Makuta were not created by the Great Beings. They were created by Mata-Nui from the liquid pool of antidermis because he wanted to have more Rahi populate his body after observing them on other worlds. They were not created completely moral, and like all others had freedom of choice. Some good, some bad. In total, I believe there were exactly 100 of them. Thus, Brotherhood of Makuta. It is worth mentioning that the actual spirt/consciousness/whatever of Teridax, was going to be made into its own giant robot along with Mata-Nui. Perhaps all of that unknowing ambition and desire to be more than it was corrupted the antidermis pool, and in particular than 'portion' of it. We can't say one way or another.

 

Don't give me that "Mata-Nui wouldn't create evil" nonsense either, because he created the six Prime Species and entrusted the six leaders of them to rule the universe. We know them as the Barraki. Who seem to range in personality from neutral to evil, with none that are exactly morally good.

 

The Makuta began to die off over time, I would assume; not very many, though. After the Matoran Civil War, they changed from being scientists to protectors of the universe, and began to taste true power. They were already arrogant and egotistic by nature, and this just made it worse. When Teridax offered them promises of more power, they sided with him. A few didn't, and went with Miserix. They all died, and Miserix (who was not a nice and/or good person either, mind you) was imprisoned. So, now we've got only the most arrogant and corrupted beings.

 

So, through meditation and introspection, the Makuta began to embrace the darkness inside them and purged out any moral light. Now, we must make a note of this -

 

Moral Light =/= Light; Moral Shadow =/= Shadow. In fact, it would be easier to phrase it like this - good and evil, yin and yang. A little bit of both in everyone. Because light is generally associated with good, and shadow with monsters and things that lurk in the night and kill people, such things would be referred to as inner light and inner shadow. Not because of what they were, but because it's easier to phrase.

 

It is possible for a Toa of Shadow to not be evil - if they were created that way. The difficult that emerges is that the only two ways we've seen in canon to create them are with shadow leeches and the Avsa. What they do is drain the beings inner light out, replacing it with darkness.

The thing I can't explain is why that gives them shadow powers. I would theorize that the drain also damages their elemental connection, and it is replaced with something new. Something darker. Let's look at Takanuva for an example here - he had half of his moral light drained (or more; depends on how much he had in the first place, which was probably pretty high based on his actions). He lost half of his elemental light. Thus, it would seem that a persons natural moral nature is tied to their elemental nature; at least as far as Matoran Universe creatures go. Results may be very different with Spherus Magna natives.

 

The converse is that if you remove all moral darkness, it brings in moral light. Perhaps due to their unique nature, the Makuta of the Melding Alternate Universe took on the powers of light to represent the change. Perhaps whatever other forces are in the universe made it that way. Impossible to say exactly.

 

IN SUMMARY - Moral light and shadow are in everyone in Bionicle, and because Bionicle is not the real world it can work that way if it wants to because that's what Greg F said. Light and shadow powers aren't moral either way, but in the case of shadow, most who have them had to lose their moral light in the process, which means they're evil or at least have have a natural lean towards evil.

 

We already had this discussion in Breakdown!

 

-Toa Levacius Zehvor

[25K Now!]

^tl:dr

 

This is fiction.

[Krayzikk]

It's a well known fact that Kra-Toa lack any moral, light, if you will. But the assumption born of that is that they are automatically evil. As Tieran can attest, it is simply not the case. The moral light will overrule the moral darkness eight times out of ten. Most people naturally lean toward the right side of things. When that light is removed, the metaphorical scales are balanced. Not inherently good, not inherently evil. The reputation of Kra-Toa for being evil comes from two primary factors. The first is that most of them were created while the Brotherhood of Makuta was in its prime, intended to be soldiers. They learned how to be evil. The other factor, is the pragmatic attitude that comes with a neutral outlook on life.

 

 

This was the paragraph approved by LL, from one of my profiles.

 

Lev. This was LL approved, and thus, can be considered Loophole canon. Absence of moral light = Neutrality. Those without moral light have no specific inclination, though they will often lean more toward evil.

 

But in and of itself, no moral inclination, one way or another.

[Havelock Vetinari]

So, can we bring in the firing squads, execute the heretics and call this one wrapped up?

[Silvan Haven]

Thank you, Levacius for writing something so comprehensive.

 

Krayzikk, I have seen too many semi conflicting profiles to think that it became canon because of one paragraph in a single character's Bio. So why don't we wait for LL to come along and settle this?

[Krayzikk]

Except Silvan, I literally just went through all of the profiles, and there literally is no contradiction. Whira, a Kra-Toa, is specifically called "morally ambiguous". Vorex's Kra-Toa is morally ambiguous, both of them, actually. The only one that conforms to the standard of "Kra-Toa=Evil" is Wrathak. (Believe I spelled that right)

 

Also, after taking it up with LL, he has stated that draining of moral light messes up moral perception. And, his own words, "If Toa are morally gray, Kra-Toa are dark gray."

[Legolover-361]

Chillax, guys.

Makuta have been evil for as long as we know, its just that they got rid of the rest of their moral light on purpose.

Yet even after the Makuta purged themselves of the rest of their moral light, Makuta such as Krika existed, Makuta -- considered the evil masters of shadows -- who actually showed the qualities of pity and mercy. Certainly Makuta Teridax was twisted beyond belief, but not all Makuta were so devious.While beings of shadow do tend to be morally darker than their brighter peers, Toa of Shadow are not automatically evil. They're touchier, they're more morally ambiguous, but they aren't all villains.

[Silvan Haven]

I was talking about profiles in general.

 

 

If Toa are morally gray

--------------------------------------------

 

Ugh, is all I can say about that without starting another argument.

 

Edit: My main problem is the fact that all of a sudden Kra-Toa got nice and there is a distinct lack of those "Black" Shadow Toa.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Silvan Haven

[25K Now!]

Hey guys.

 

Shut up about morality and magic and elements.

 

I want to make a giant airship.