Thoughts on the Vahi...

[LockmanCapulet]

The Kanohi Vahi is supposed to be one of the most powerful masks in the universe, right? It contains massive ammaunts of Time energy which, if released, would destroy the entire universe (presumably). A lot of beings want to get their paws on it.

 

But it seems that it's actually rather limited; one can only use it to speed up or slow down time around a target. While this could prove rather useful, the amount of concentration needed to use it almost renders it not worth using (as it seems to me). What do you think about this?

[Vote Saxon]

I think the speeding up/slowing down of time power is just a small fraction of the Vahi's true potential. The problem is just that it's power is so great that noone is able to use it fully. Look at the Ignika: Its powers were only used by the mask itself and Mata Nui. With the Vahi I suppose it's the same

[Chro]

I think the speeding up/slowing down of time power is just a small fraction of the Vahi's true potential. The problem is just that it's power is so great that noone is able to use it fully. Look at the Ignika: Its powers were only used by the mask itself and Mata Nui. With the Vahi I suppose it's the same

Yep, I think that's it. I suspect it could be used to do something as extreme as, say, sending an object if person backward or forward through time.

[Taipu1]

I think it's been stated it can't do time travel of any kind, whether its an object or a user. This seems contradictory to me, if you sped up time quick enough, you'd effectively travel forward in time, and if you slowed it down so much it starts going backwards, thats time travel backwards. I like to think that in the hands of someone capable of controlling it (Artakha maybe), it would be able to do those things.

[Dralcax]

I always thought it was because of the sheer difficulty of controlling time. Let’s compare it to damming a river. A dam can only redirect or slow a river, it cannot reverse the flow. However, a dam must be very strong in order to stand against the river, a few wooden planks probably would not suffice. The same thing goes for the Vahi. Controlling time is extremely difficult, so something as simple as speeding up or slowing it down requires tremendous energy. And if that time energy is released through destroying the mask, it gives the effect of crumpling a piece of paper as opposed to folding it normally, and the timeline goes screwy.

[LockmanCapulet]

That makes sense. So the problem itself arises from the difficulty of use. I wonder if someone like Voporak, who has a deep innate connection with time, could use it to its full potential.

[CeeCee]

I think it's been stated it can't do time travel of any kind, whether its an object or a user. This seems contradictory to me, if you sped up time quick enough, you'd effectively travel forward in time, and if you slowed it down so much it starts going backwards, thats time travel backwards. I like to think that in the hands of someone capable of controlling it (Artakha maybe), it would be able to do those things.

although if you made time go really fast you still age, no?

[Taipu1]

I always thought it was because of the sheer difficulty of controlling time. Let’s compare it to damming a river. A dam can only redirect or slow a river, it cannot reverse the flow. However, a dam must be very strong in order to stand against the river, a few wooden planks probably would not suffice. The same thing goes for the Vahi. Controlling time is extremely difficult, so something as simple as speeding up or slowing it down requires tremendous energy. And if that time energy is released through destroying the mask, it gives the effect of crumpling a piece of paper as opposed to folding it normally, and the timeline goes screwy.

 

That wouldn't necessarily have to be true for Bionicle. In reality, its impossible to actually change time at all, apart from complicated stuff to do with relativity. You can also not travel through dimensional gateways, or fly totally unsupported. If the Olmak and Kadin are masks that work with little difficulty in the MU, I don't see why the Vahi wouldn't.

[bonesiii]

But it seems that it's actually rather limited; one can only use it to speed up or slow down time around a target. While this could prove rather useful, the amount of concentration needed to use it almost renders it not worth using (as it seems to me). What do you think about this?

Well this is fun to talk about, but keep in mind a few things here:

 

1) The 2003 story made it clear what its worth is; a measure of last resort. It's kinda like a nuke.

 

2) Technically whether it is useful or not to actual characters in the plot is irrelevant to whether it can or will exist as a mask. (Although Makuta is the one that commissioned it and he had a use in mind that apparently he knew enough about from TK via Mutran that he believed it would be useful to him.) Time is labelled a Legendary power because it's a fundamental part of the physics of the Matoran Universe. This was true long before the Disk of Time or the Vahi were made. So if you make a mask that controls Time in the full elemental power sense, then you get a Legendary Mask whether you want one or not, and you're stuck with the limits -- and if those limits are too much to make it useful, too bad.

 

 

That makes sense. So the problem itself arises from the difficulty of use. I wonder if someone like Voporak, who has a deep innate connection with time, could use it to its full potential.

Well, Greg has said that there's an absolute rule in Bionicle's canon storytelling that there's no time travel of the sort that could change the past. (Bitil's mask did use time travel but not like that.) So even if it's possible, apparently Greg would not use it, and it's more likely IMO that he'd just say it's not possible for Voporak.

[Dralcax]

 

I always thought it was because of the sheer difficulty of controlling time. Let’s compare it to damming a river. A dam can only redirect or slow a river, it cannot reverse the flow. However, a dam must be very strong in order to stand against the river, a few wooden planks probably would not suffice. The same thing goes for the Vahi. Controlling time is extremely difficult, so something as simple as speeding up or slowing it down requires tremendous energy. And if that time energy is released through destroying the mask, it gives the effect of crumpling a piece of paper as opposed to folding it normally, and the timeline goes screwy.

 

That wouldn't necessarily have to be true for Bionicle. In reality, its impossible to actually change time at all, apart from complicated stuff to do with relativity. You can also not travel through dimensional gateways, or fly totally unsupported. If the Olmak and Kadin are masks that work with little difficulty in the MU, I don't see why the Vahi wouldn't.

 

The Kadin probably allows the user to apply forces on the air from different parts of their body, the propulsion resulting in flight. Relatively simple. The Olmak just opens a shortcut in space. It requires more energy, but once the physics are understood, it's very simple and efficient, the only real difficulty is preventing a huge gust of air tearing up the ground if two portals are opened at different elevations, but an "airlock" in a pocket dimension could fix that. However, time is more complex, and screwing with it too much could break reality itself, so numerous safeguards are needed to support the timeline while one messes around with it. It's comparable to a game of Jenga, messing around too much compromises the stability of the whole thing, so safeguards are necessary to stop an uncontrollable domino effect from destroying everything.

[LockmanCapulet]

 

I always thought it was because of the sheer difficulty of controlling time. Let’s compare it to damming a river. A dam can only redirect or slow a river, it cannot reverse the flow. However, a dam must be very strong in order to stand against the river, a few wooden planks probably would not suffice. The same thing goes for the Vahi. Controlling time is extremely difficult, so something as simple as speeding up or slowing it down requires tremendous energy. And if that time energy is released through destroying the mask, it gives the effect of crumpling a piece of paper as opposed to folding it normally, and the timeline goes screwy.

 

That wouldn't necessarily have to be true for Bionicle. In reality, its impossible to actually change time at all, apart from complicated stuff to do with relativity. You can also not travel through dimensional gateways, or fly totally unsupported. If the Olmak and Kadin are masks that work with little difficulty in the MU, I don't see why the Vahi wouldn't.

 

 

The thing is, Time is hard to control because it, along with Life and Creation, is a fundamental force of the universe.

[The Iron Toa]

Would it break the no-time travel rule to have it be able to reverse time for a certain area or object? I mean, make the target revert to how it was in the past?

[The Legendary TNT]

"

Would it break the no-time travel rule to have it be able to reverse time for a certain area or object? I mean, make the target revert to how it was in the past?

"

The Mask of Youth? No wonder so many people want the Vahi.

[bonesiii]

Would it break the no-time travel rule to have it be able to reverse time for a certain area or object? I mean, make the target revert to how it was in the past?

Having it become more like it was in the past is not the same thing as time travel; the Kiril will do that without involving time powers for example. If you mean literally bring forward an object from the past, that's basically what Bitil's mask does, but only for the user. An object-only version might be possible, but likely it would have to go back at some point and would thus carry the same rules as his mask.

[The Iron Toa]

I hope it does have more uses than just slowing and speeding up time. The Kanohi Ignika could do pretty much anything to a living being, so the other Legendary Masks should have the potential to be as versatile with their respective powers.

[bonesiii]

Yes, just to be clear, Greg confirmed it's fully capable (the mask) of time travel. But no known user is capable of using that part of it.

 

However, Greg has apparently confirmed that Vakama's description in Time Trap to Makuta of what would happen if he smashed it was accurate, and that included random time travel abilities. So there is that way that time travel could technically be enabled by anyone who had it. (At far greater cost, likely deadly cost for nearly everyone, though, so it's more of a technicality than anything practical.)

[Great Being Velika]

Like with the Ignika, nobody could use its real power, so what Vakama and Tahu did with it was probably just a small fraction of what it could actually do.

[The Iron Toa]

Good point. The Ignika is alive, so it can use itself or assist its wearer. The other legendary masks might be as versatile, but no one is able to use them to their full potentials.

[Great Being Velika]

Good point. The Ignika is alive, so it can use itself or assist its wearer. The other legendary masks might be as versatile, but no one is able to use them to their full potentials.

The Vahi seems to be "nicer" than the Ignika, because, apart from the Time Trap, it let a being touch it without doing anything.

Edited January 5, 2013 by Great being Velika

[Chro]

Good point. The Ignika is alive, so it can use itself or assist its wearer. The other legendary masks might be as versatile, but no one is able to use them to their full potentials.

The Vahi seems to be "nicer" than the Ignika, because, apart from the Time Trap, it let a being touch it without doing anything.

That's because it doesn't have a consciousness. The Ignika only reacted to its wearers because since it controls Life, it is alive; the Vahi and Mask of Creation are not alive. Edited January 6, 2013 by Chro

[Voxumo]

The Kanohi Vahi is supposed to be one of the most powerful masks in the universe, right? It contains massive ammaunts of Time energy which, if released, would destroy the entire universe (presumably). A lot of beings want to get their paws on it.

 

But it seems that it's actually rather limited; one can only use it to speed up or slow down time around a target. While this could prove rather useful, the amount of concentration needed to use it almost renders it not worth using (as it seems to me). What do you think about this?

 

i just want to clarify one thing it would only destroy the matoran universe if the mask it self were to be destroyed. everything out side of the MU robot would be safe. i just had to put this since i remember there being a big woha over this and greg had to clarify this.

 

 

 

I think it's been stated it can't do time travel of any kind, whether its an object or a user. This seems contradictory to me, if you sped up time quick enough, you'd effectively travel forward in time, and if you slowed it down so much it starts going backwards, thats time travel backwards. I like to think that in the hands of someone capable of controlling it (Artakha maybe), it would be able to do those things.

although if you made time go really fast you still age, no?

 

i wonder if there is a way someone could if having enough control over the mask if they could use the power to slow time around them but also speed time around everywhere else thus creating a field persay that would counteract the aging effect to the speeding, just a thought.

Edited January 6, 2013 by Soldier 1st class Voxumo

[The Iron Toa]

Well, reverting everything so it was as it was in the past isn't exactly the same as traveling to the past, is it? There wouldn't be any already-experienced future to return to (unless absolutely nothing changed the next time around) because it would the present that changes.

[LockmanCapulet]

i just want to clarify one thing it would only destroy the matoran universe if the mask it self were to be destroyed. everything out side of the MU robot would be safe. i just had to put this since i remember there being a big woha over this and greg had to clarify this.

 

People seem to be making this sort of argument all across the board. There's the question of whether the Vahi works/affects outside the MU, whether the Ignika works/affects outside the MU, whether the Red Star can grab beings from the MU if they're outside of it, etc. I don't see why any of those things would not work outside the MU. But we could always ask Greg.

[Makuta of Time]

This seems like the second mask that can destroy the universe. Besides the Ignika.

[Voxumo]

i just want to clarify one thing it would only destroy the matoran universe if the mask it self were to be destroyed. everything out side of the MU robot would be safe. i just had to put this since i remember there being a big woha over this and greg had to clarify this.

 

People seem to be making this sort of argument all across the board. There's the question of whether the Vahi works/affects outside the MU, whether the Ignika works/affects outside the MU, whether the Red Star can grab beings from the MU if they're outside of it, etc. I don't see why any of those things would not work outside the MU. But we could always ask Greg.

my statement was not meaning that it would not work outside the mu just that if it were to go haywireit would not be as distastrous as if it were inside the mu

[bonesiii]

This seems like the second mask that can destroy the universe. Besides the Ignika.

They are two of three Legendary powers; not a coincidence. The other is Artakha's Mask of Creation. (Not sure if we should consider it confirmed totally that it would too, but yeah.)

 

And BTW, it's hardly the second. This was established in main story in 2003, three years before the Ignika's existence was even revealed. It's the first.

 

i just want to clarify one thing it would only destroy the matoran universe if the mask it self were to be destroyed. everything out side of the MU robot would be safe. i just had to put this since i remember there being a big woha over this and greg had to clarify this.

 

People seem to be making this sort of argument all across the board. There's the question of whether the Vahi works/affects outside the MU, whether the Ignika works/affects outside the MU, whether the Red Star can grab beings from the MU if they're outside of it, etc. I don't see why any of those things would not work outside the MU. But we could always ask Greg.

my statement was not meaning that it would not work outside the mu just that if it were to go haywireit would not be as distastrous as if it were inside the mu

Just to be clear, Greg already told us the Vahi's destruction only destroys time in the Matoran Universe, not everywhere. Also, "destroy" is really a figure of speech in this case that really isn't accurate. It's more like, unleash time to go crazy within the MU (that is, the world made of protodermis like the mask). He confirmed that Vakama's description of it in Time Trap is accurate, apparently, and that did not simply freeze time everywhere. Rather, it would destroy the organized, linear nature of time.

 

You're correct that these things can "work" outside the MU, but only in normal operation. Destroying them isn't "working", it's the opposite.

Edited January 7, 2013 by bonesiii

[Roki]

This seems like the second mask that can destroy the universe. Besides the Ignika.

They are two of three Legendary powers; not a coincidence. The other is Artakha's Mask of Creation. (Not sure if we should consider it confirmed totally that it would too, but yeah.)

 

And BTW, it's hardly the second. This was established in main story in 2003, three years before the Ignika's existence was even revealed. It's the first.

 

i just want to clarify one thing it would only destroy the matoran universe if the mask it self were to be destroyed. everything out side of the MU robot would be safe. i just had to put this since i remember there being a big woha over this and greg had to clarify this.

 

People seem to be making this sort of argument all across the board. There's the question of whether the Vahi works/affects outside the MU, whether the Ignika works/affects outside the MU, whether the Red Star can grab beings from the MU if they're outside of it, etc. I don't see why any of those things would not work outside the MU. But we could always ask Greg.

my statement was not meaning that it would not work outside the mu just that if it were to go haywireit would not be as distastrous as if it were inside the mu

Just to be clear, Greg already told us the Vahi's destruction only destroys time in the Matoran Universe, not everywhere. Also, "destroy" is really a figure of speech in this case that really isn't accurate. It's more like, unleash time to go crazy within the MU (that is, the world made of protodermis like the mask). He confirmed that Vakama's description of it in Time Trap is accurate, apparently, and that did not simply freeze time everywhere. Rather, it would destroy the organized, linear nature of time.

 

You're correct that these things can "work" outside the MU, but only in normal operation. Destroying them isn't "working", it's the opposite.

 

 

This makes me wonder about just how much Teridax knew of the Mask of time in relation to it's role in the MU. It's possible that it's destructive effects on the matoran universe adds another more valid reason for his desperate want of the mask for it's role in his overall plan and makes more sense than just the whole "Want to make time go faster/ slower to make conquering easier" idea. If anyone else inside Teridax had the mask and could destroy it when he took over. It's basically an instant lose for him.

-Roki

Edited January 7, 2013 by Roki

[Katuko]

I hope it does have more uses than just slowing and speeding up time. The Kanohi Ignika could do pretty much anything to a living being, so the other Legendary Masks should have the potential to be as versatile with their respective powers.

Being able to slow/speed up so much that the world stands still around you is a tremendously useful power, though. While a Mask of Speed and/or Quick-Travel could let you move faster than any other being, the Mask of Time would allow you to spend a lot more time thinking about your next action. While even full Vahi control will not let you time travel (only "fast forward"), the ability to take a time-out can be crucial. Imagine a fight (like we so often do here ) where instead of just teleporting behind your opponent for a stab, you can freeze time and walk casually around, examining his armor for every minute defect that might give you an advantage, then spend even more time wedging your knife into exactly the right spot. Compared to a teleport, where reflexes can still screw you over, there is no reflex fast enough when time has stopped for as long as you want it.Freeze time. Glue a Visorak to their back. Walk away and unfreeze time.Can't do that with a Kualsi.

i just want to clarify one thing it would only destroy the matoran universe if the mask it self were to be destroyed. everything out side of the MU robot would be safe. i just had to put this since i remember there being a big woha over this and greg had to clarify this.

I believe this is because the extreme amount of time energy being released would affect the robot's systems in a decidedly bad way, and likely be contained and fluctuate through it forever after. Outside the robot, however, there is infinite space for it to disperse into, which might still cause some weird time distortion here and there but not screw everything up forever.

[Dual Cee]

Just to tell, when Mata Nui "allied" (I mean after the battle giving Spherus Magna life) with mr. Ignika it was able to do some very awesome things so the only thing we have to do is let the Insane GB come near the Vahi, giving it a mind and then get it allied with you using a Selutu showing you're defending a good case

Edited January 7, 2013 by Dual Matrix

[Chro]

Just to tell, when Mata Nui "allied" (I mean after the battle giving Spherus Magna life) with mr. Ignika it was able to do some very awesome things so the only thing we have to do is let the Insane GB come near the Vahi, giving it a mind and then get it allied with you using a Selutu showing you're defending a good case

Very interesting idea, actually. Give the mask a life. Then you could, at the very least, learn the extent of its abilities (assuming it knew them).

Come to think of it, that could be useful for a lot of things, although Kanohi or weapons could be important uses.

Too bad the GB is locked up, I'd love to have seen him use his power. (Perhaps if the serials continue some day.)

[Dual Cee]

You actually saw the result and you can keep that guy locked up,altough I dont want him to, lewa was able to walk outside so entering and reaching him won't be a problem.

[Chro]

I know. What I meant was seeing it happening, as opposed to seeing the results, haha.

[The Great Spirit DM]

Good point. The Ignika is alive, so it can use itself or assist its wearer. The other legendary masks might be as versatile, but no one is able to use them to their full potentials.

The Vahi seems to be "nicer" than the Ignika, because, apart from the Time Trap, it let a being touch it without doing anything.

That's because it doesn't have a consciousness. The Ignika only reacted to its wearers because since it controls Life, it is alive; the Vahi and Mask of Creation are not alive.

What if the Vahi is alive? That would explain how Vakama used it before he used his Huna, eh?

 

Perhaps if time travel works like the ignika (give life to do it) perhaps another energy source could be used instead (like Back to the Future I) to allow the user to survive the time travel.

 

As for traveling into the future, a Toa can slow time without affecting certain targets (Tahu slowed time, but not for the Toa Nuva), so maybe he can speed it up incredibly without affecting himself? No Toa has managed to reverse time, only slow/stop it. Perhaps a greater being (like a makuta or Artaka) could manage time travel without the potential take-your-life-in-the-process cost, but then we have the 'destroy the universe' effect to deal with.

 

 

All in all, I doubt Greg wants to bother with it.

 

EDIT: Idea:

 

What if the MU has an internal machine that regulates time? The Vahi's destruction could hamper the machinery in some way that would cause a massive failure in the flow of time that could allow a convoluted time travel-- like in Time Bandits, only on a large scale with no map. This machinery could explain why MU inhabitants live so long, and how Vakama received telepathic communication from the future.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Nujanii: Kanohi Master

[LockmanCapulet]

EDIT: Idea:

 

What if the MU has an internal machine that regulates time? The Vahi's destruction could hamper the machinery in some way that would cause a massive failure in the flow of time that could allow a convoluted time travel-- like in Time Bandits, only on a large scale with no map. This machinery could explain why MU inhabitants live so long, and how Vakama received telepathic communication from the future.

 

That makes a lot of sense! In fact, a similar explanation could explain a lot of currently unknown factors...

[Master Inika]

I recall reading in the OGD that the Vahi can't reverse the flow of time, only made it go quicker or slower - but it would still be going forward at some rate.

[Katuko]

What if the Vahi is alive? That would explain how Vakama used it before he used his Huna, eh?

It seemed to me that he could use because he knew its power. Masks are triggered by mental command, so he couldn't trigger the Huna because he had no idea what power his mask even had. The Vahi, however, was made to be a mask of time by his own hands, so he knew that he could somehow control time with it. Yet, he could not keep that control for more than a few seconds.

Perhaps if time travel works like the ignika (give life to do it) perhaps another energy source could be used instead (like Back to the Future I) to allow the user to survive the time travel.

The energy of the mask of time most likely has nothing to do with life energy.

As for traveling into the future, a Toa can slow time without affecting certain targets (Tahu slowed time, but not for the Toa Nuva), so maybe he can speed it up incredibly without affecting himself? No Toa has managed to reverse time, only slow/stop it. Perhaps a greater being (like a makuta or Artaka) could manage time travel without the potential take-your-life-in-the-process cost, but then we have the 'destroy the universe' effect to deal with.

Greg has 100% concluded that time travel is not possible. You can simply not go back in time. You can probably speed things up to "time travel" forwards, but it's a one-way trip.

What if the MU has an internal machine that regulates time? The Vahi's destruction could hamper the machinery in some way that would cause a massive failure in the flow of time that could allow a convoluted time travel-- like in Time Bandits, only on a large scale with no map. This machinery could explain why MU inhabitants live so long, and how Vakama received telepathic communication from the future.

The communication from the future I can't explain, but the MU inhabitants will live just as long outside the MU as inside. It's their bio-mechanical nature that lengthens their lifespan, not a time dilation field or anything. There is no point in having time regulation machinery, even, because why would internally slowing or speeding up machinery meant to work in real-time be a good thing? Slowing the internals down means that the robot at large gets slower, while speeding it up then requires more durable machinery.

[Chro]

Perhaps if time travel works like the ignika (give life to do it) perhaps another energy source could be used instead (like Back to the Future I) to allow the user to survive the time travel.

The energy of the mask of time most likely has nothing to do with life energy.

I think he meant that the Vahi is hard to use because, just like the Ignika uses up Life energy from the wearer, perhaps the Vahi expends Time energy from the wearer in some way. Not sure how that'd work, though.

 

There is no point in having time regulation machinery, even ...

Can you say "failsafe"?

[Dual Cee]

What if the Vahi is alive? That would explain how Vakama used it before he used his Huna, eh?

 

It seemed to me that he could use because he knew its power. Masks are triggered by mental command, so he couldn't trigger the Huna because he had no idea what power his mask even had. The Vahi, however, was made to be a mask of time by his own hands, so he knew that he could somehow control time with it. Yet, he could not keep that control for more than a few seconds.

 

Thought about this too but knowing Vakama was a famous mask maker I would suspect he knew the powers of the Huna

[Katuko]

Thought about this too but knowing Vakama was a famous mask maker I would suspect he knew the powers of the Huna

Considering that he wore a powerless mask as a Matoran and that he never took his Kanohi off to even check its shape, he might (correctly) have assumed that the shape of his Matoran Kanohi very well had nothing to do with what power he had ended up with. Seeing as no known Metru Toa wore a Huna at that time and that Matoran can only really know the power of masks they make themselves, it's not a stretch to assume that Vakama had no idea what powers his fellow Toa would have.

[Dual Cee]

Well Vakama was clearly known to the crafting of great masks, also wasn't there an unspoken rule in maskmaking to make all masks with the same power in the same shape?.

 

Also if I was the best mask maker in the world, I would've made my own mask and so know it's possible powers.