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Bionicle time

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#1 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 10:03 AM

Since Bionicle physics are not the same as ours, who's to say that their time is the same. On Spherus Magna, they have longer days because of the planet's size, and probably different years too. 

For all we know, time in the MU could be longer or shorter than ours. A minute in the Matoran universe could be 30 seconds in ours. So, what if 1,000 years in the MU only equates to 100 or so years in our universe. Or, what if 1,000 years in the MU equates to 2,000 years in our universe?

It's just a theory, but this could mean that some parts of the Bionicle storyline could be longer or shorter than we imagined, due to time differences between universes. 

Also, unless the MU time is based off SM time, how would the Matoran and other MUans have gotten used to living with longer days and years and whatnot? I feel like that would not be easy. 


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#2 Offline Captain Caboose

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 11:40 AM

I think it would be longer than ours, because in my story the Shattering occurred some where around 95 million years ago. 


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#3 Offline I Am A Walrus

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 11:52 AM

I always imagined that time in the Bionicle storyline was the same as in the real world, both in the MU and Spherus Magna. I kind of remember reading something (one of Greg's quote, I believe) that says that this is true, though I could still be wrong.


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#4 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 11:57 AM

Nope Bonesii once said that it was confirmed Sperus Magna Time is equal to MU days and is Time to Earth Time


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#5 Offline Chro

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 12:57 PM

[color=#808080;][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"]Too bad that's the case- it'd make a lot of sense for time to be off, in some way, IMO. Bio-years shorter than regular ones, probably. [/color][/font]
I think it would be longer than ours, because in my story the Shattering occurred some where around 95 million years ago. 
[color=#808080;][font="verdana, geneva, sans-serif;"]I don't think your own fiction is a good indicator of the canon time scale. :lol:[/color][/font]

Edited by Chro, Jan 27 2013 - 12:58 PM.

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#6 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 01:00 PM

Well it has been stated that there are 36 hours in the Matoran Universe so likely also on Spherus Magna.  The only problem though, is that we never established if they were full 60 minute hours that are the same length as hours, and thus a Bionicle day equals a day and a half of our time, or if they simply divided the day up into 36 hours rather than 24, but it is still the same length.


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#7 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 01:37 PM

Well it has been stated that there are 36 hours in the Matoran Universe so likely also on Spherus Magna.  The only problem though, is that we never established if they were full 60 minute hours that are the same length as hours, and thus a Bionicle day equals a day and a half of our time, or if they simply divided the day up into 36 hours rather than 24, but it is still the same length.

Well if it's the same length of time in a day, just different hour lengths, then an hour would be 40 minutes.

 

You know you love BIONICLE when you work the math to find out how long their hours might be (and you hate math).


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#8 Offline LordofBionicles

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Posted Jan 27 2013 - 02:05 PM

Well it has been stated that there are 36 hours in the Matoran Universe so likely also on Spherus Magna.  The only problem though, is that we never established if they were full 60 minute hours that are the same length as hours, and thus a Bionicle day equals a day and a half of our time, or if they simply divided the day up into 36 hours rather than 24, but it is still the same length.

That´s true, it was said that because the Sundail had 18 marks then SM and MU had 36 hours each day


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#9 Offline Captain Caboose

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Posted Jan 29 2013 - 10:21 PM

That's a long time. Sounds like Jupiter time.


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#10 Offline Chro

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Posted Jan 30 2013 - 07:02 AM

That's a long time. Sounds like Jupiter time.

[color=#808080;]Considering the size of Spherus Magna, yeah, that'd make sense.[/color]


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#11 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Jan 30 2013 - 01:32 PM

That's a long time. Sounds like Jupiter time.

[color=#808080;]Considering the size of Spherus Magna, yeah, that'd make sense.[/color]

Yeah that's what I would say but it's never been confirmed.

And by the way, Jupiter actually only has a day of about 10 hours and is the fastest rotating planet in the solar system, but I get what you're saying.


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#12 Offline Captain Caboose

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Posted Jan 30 2013 - 05:27 PM

 
That's a long time. Sounds like Jupiter time.

[color=#808080;]Considering the size of Spherus Magna, yeah, that'd make sense.[/color]

Yeah that's what I would say but it's never been confirmed.

And by the way, Jupiter actually only has a day of about 10 hours and is the fastest rotating planet in the solar system, but I get what you're saying.

 

Mercury is the fastest planet. It's over there by the sun. Jupiter is the big planet in the solar system.


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#13 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Jan 30 2013 - 05:39 PM

 

That's a long time. Sounds like Jupiter time.

Considering the size of Spherus Magna, yeah, that'd make sense.

Yeah that's what I would say but it's never been confirmed.And by the way, Jupiter actually only has a day of about 10 hours and is the fastest rotating planet in the solar system, but I get what you're saying.

 Mercury is the fastest planet. It's over there by the sun. Jupiter is the big planet in the solar system.

Mercury has the fastest orbit, but Jupiter has the fastest revolutions.Anyhow, here's something for consideration: relativity. Assuming Mata Nui was approaching the speed of light at any point (reasonable seeing as he visited several different solar systems), the MU'd have to have something to speed up its interior time if it ended up the same as SM time. In other words, a "day" really could have 36 hours from the perspective of the MU inhabitants, while an SM day might be the same time objectively (from outside the MU) but less subjectively (from within the MU).

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#14 Offline Captain Caboose

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Posted Jan 30 2013 - 08:53 PM

So what planet here would be like Spherus Magna? Jupiter fits it's size, but the time.


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#15 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Jan 31 2013 - 05:28 PM

 

 

 

That's a long time. Sounds like Jupiter time.

[color=#808080;]Considering the size of Spherus Magna, yeah, that'd make sense.[/color]

 

Yeah that's what I would say but it's never been confirmed.And by the way, Jupiter actually only has a day of about 10 hours and is the fastest rotating planet in the solar system, but I get what you're saying.

 

 Mercury is the fastest planet. It's over there by the sun. Jupiter is the big planet in the solar system.

 

Mercury has the fastest orbit, but Jupiter has the fastest revolutions.Anyhow, here's something for consideration: relativity. Assuming Mata Nui was approaching the speed of light at any point (reasonable seeing as he visited several different solar systems), the MU'd have to have something to speed up its interior time if it ended up the same as SM time. In other words, a "day" really could have 36 hours from the perspective of the MU inhabitants, while an SM day might be the same time objectively (from outside the MU) but less subjectively (from within the MU).

Okay just to clear up any confusion, planets orbit the sun by revolving around it, hence the revolution, which is the amount of time is takes to complete a circle around the sun, or a year.  A rotation is a planet spinning on its axis, in other words, a day.

 

Mercury might revolve around the sun the quickest out of all the planets, and thus have the shortest year and the fastest revolution, but Jupiter is spinning on its own axis the quickest, making it have the shortest day.  A planet being larger in size does not mean that is spins slower, because all planets do not rotate at the same speed as the earth.


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#16 Offline Zox Tomana

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Posted Feb 03 2013 - 02:06 PM

Well it has been stated that there are 36 hours in the Matoran Universe so likely also on Spherus Magna.  The only problem though, is that we never established if they were full 60 minute hours that are the same length as hours, and thus a Bionicle day equals a day and a half of our time, or if they simply divided the day up into 36 hours rather than 24, but it is still the same length.

That´s true, it was said that because the Sundail had 18 marks then SM and MU had 36 hours each day

-----------

Actually, no. We had a long discussion on the TP of the Sundial on BS01, and then someone asked Greg and it was denied that the sundial's markings had anything to do with the proper number of hours either in the MU or on SM. I haven't heard about that changing, and hearsay is not nearly as good as a link to the OGD. 

 

And as regards a question in the first post as to how the Matoran would get used to having super-long lifespans... It would simply be a fact of life for them. It isn't unusual for them, so what is there for them to remark about?


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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 04 2013 - 06:06 AM

Yall have mostly said what I would have said, but a few points to add:

 

A planetary body or moon will also change its spinning speed over time, generally slowing, due to tidal forces. Our moon may have once spun with respect to us but it eventually became tidally locked, and this works on a planet orbiting a star too. So, our days are gradually getting longer, without the planet changing in size at all (well... we bleed atmosphere and can take on mass due to meteor impacts, etc., but this has virtually nothing to do with the lengthening days).

 

 

 

And, whether time correlates to our time is actually, if I may throw a wrench in what I've said before, possibly open for consideration. What we know is that Greg has said that a Bionicle year equals an Earth year in length. Also, a Toa is roughly seven feet tall as compared to a human. This shows that if Earth was thrown into Bionicle, and/or a human, we know how they would compare to things/beings/time in Bionicle in those ways.

 

However, this is not necessarily the same thing as if we could open up a transubersuperdimensional portal or window and look through it from our real Earth in our own dimension to the "actual" Bionicle (within this fictional scenario) world. We have no confirmation that Earth exists in any dimension connectable to Bionicle, via Olmak for example, unlike other LEGO story universes in which there are fictional versions of Earth or something apparently just like it. And we know that within the actual Bionicle universe, Earth and humans don't exist.

 

This might seem contradictory, but basically I'm saying that both the rate of the flow of time, and the size relationships in space -- both being parts of the material-like "spacetime" substance -- might be different. While the "object's relationship with the timespace it inhabits" is the same as ours. It's a bit like, if you have a person walking forward, and another walking forward at the same rate with respect to his feet's contact with a surface, but the second is walking on the back of a flatbed truck that is going at highway speeds, you could say that both people are walking at the same speed. Yet from a more objective viewpoint one is going much faster.

 

However, I still say that if we could open up such a window, it's most logical that time is flowing at the same rate in the Bionicle world as ours, mainly just for the same reason Greg says the years have the same length as ours -- because it's a fictional universe created to be enjoyed by humans and relatable to by us. In other words, if someday in the distant future we manage to create an artificial "fictiverse", like a holodeck world from Star Trek, time's rate of passage would automatically be synced with ours for convenience.

 

The main reason I bring this up is that Greg -did- confirm that time could pass at different rates in different universes, within the array of Bionicle universes, since it moved faster in the Kingdom dimension than in the Core dimension. And we used that principle for the Expanded Multiverse as well. Still, he could simply say that a fictional version of our dimension would be synced only to the Core Dimension.


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#18 Offline darkslizer

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Posted Feb 22 2013 - 10:05 PM

Well, I'd just like to point out how all the Toa are several thousand years old, if memory serves. They probably are, and they act like young adults, leading us to conclude that 1000 years in MU time is about 10 years human time. Although, I haven't taken into account the Toa canister stuff, any loss of memory, or simply frozen for long periods of time (I'm of sure if that ever happened in the MU, however). So, in conclusion, 1000 years=10 years. Blaboosh.
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#19 Offline Kavu

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Posted Feb 22 2013 - 10:34 PM

Well, I'd just like to point out how all the Toa are several thousand years old, if memory serves. They probably are, and they act like young adults, leading us to conclude that 1000 years in MU time is about 10 years human time. Although, I haven't taken into account the Toa canister stuff, any loss of memory, or simply frozen for long periods of time (I'm of sure if that ever happened in the MU, however). So, in conclusion, 1000 years=10 years. Blaboosh.

I don't quite follow how we went from a Thousand years to Ten on the basis of the Toa's personalities. o_O


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#20 Offline Gengar

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Posted Feb 22 2013 - 10:57 PM

Well, I'd just like to point out how all the Toa are several thousand years old, if memory serves. They probably are, and they act like young adults, leading us to conclude that 1000 years in MU time is about 10 years human time. Although, I haven't taken into account the Toa canister stuff, any loss of memory, or simply frozen for long periods of time (I'm of sure if that ever happened in the MU, however). So, in conclusion, 1000 years=10 years. Blaboosh.
The Toa's personalities doesn't matter according to age, really. But based on your time theory, they would be 1000 years old Earth time because you said 1000 years= 10 years, but the Toa (Mata, I think that's who you're referring to) are approximately 100,000 years old in the storyline and naturally (since 10 goes into 1000 a hundred times so I'll have to divide by 100) in human years they are 100 years old.

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#21 Offline SilverCor

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Posted Feb 23 2013 - 01:39 AM

Well, I'd just like to point out how all the Toa are several thousand years old, if memory serves. They probably are, and they act like young adults, leading us to conclude that 1000 years in MU time is about 10 years human time. Although, I haven't taken into account the Toa canister stuff, any loss of memory, or simply frozen for long periods of time (I'm of sure if that ever happened in the MU, however). So, in conclusion, 1000 years=10 years. Blaboosh.
The Toa's personalities doesn't matter according to age, really. But based on your time theory, they would be 1000 years old Earth time because you said 1000 years= 10 years, but the Toa (Mata, I think that's who you're referring to) are approximately 100,000 years old in the storyline and naturally (since 10 goes into 1000 a hundred times so I'll have to divide by 100) in human years they are 100 years old.

 

I think it's safe to assume that time in the Bionicle universe passes at the same rate it does on Earth, at least in the CD. Everyone is just incredibly long-lived compared to us. Think of the elves from LOTR. They live for thousands of years, and to them, it's normal. Beings from the MU would probably look at us and think it weird that we have such short lives, ha ha. 


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#22 Offline Exitium

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Posted Feb 24 2013 - 11:03 PM

I'm inclined to agree with several people before me and say that time is probably the same in the Matoran Universe.  This is not simply because this is the simplest explanation (and we have no reason to believe otherwise) but because it isn't possible for time to flow at a different rate.  

 

Before you give me the Bionicle-physics-works-differently-than-our-physics cop out, consider the question of what it means for time to flow differently.  Can you define the "speed" or "rate" at which time flows without reference to time itself?  If you want to suggest that the temporal events happens at a different rate, is it time that is moving at a different "speed" or the objects moving through time?  What does it mean to suggest that thirty seconds in one universe is one minute in ours?  The notion that time flows differently has no meaning (unless you want to suggest it flows in reverse, which no one is suggesting).

 

The biggest evidence for the different flow of time is the long lifespan of the various inhabitants, but this suggests nothing about the nature of time.  In our world, flies live for a matter of weeks.  Trees can live for centuries.  Different species mature at different rates.  The fact that lifeforms have lengthy lifespans does not necessarily imply that the very nature of time in their universe is any different than in ours.


Edited by Exitium, Feb 24 2013 - 11:04 PM.

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#23 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 25 2013 - 12:20 AM

Exitium, time in our universe flows at different rates depending on your reference frame, in regards to velocity and gravity, so you are clearly wrong to say it's impossible for time to flow at different rates. As it actually turns out, it is impossible for it not to do so in our world. Fiction doesn't necessarily need to feature it, but given things like the Vahi it's a bit strange to see it suggested to not be possible in Bionicle considering it's been shown. :P

 

I strongly recommend reading up on both the general and special versions of Einstein's temporal relativity. There is experimental proof of it in both types.

 

What it means in practical terms is that all physical processes in the one reference frame move slower or faster as observed with the other frame (area), including atomic spin, etc. So clocks at higher altitudes tick faster than clocks in lower. It appears that you have missed the key point that we're talking about comparing the rates between two different reference frames or areas -- not just one. That's the answer to your question of whether you can define the rate of time with respect to time -- yes, you define the rate of one frame with respect to the rate of time in the other frame. That is, relative to that other frame; hence the name. :)

 

What it means in physics terms is that spacetime itself is something of a four-dimensional "material" called a "brane" (after the English "membrane") which can be bent, compressed, and stretched, as well as some more complicated quantum mechanics reasons I won't bore you with here. It is not meaningless at all. Our GPS satellites for example must factor for it or else they would slowly become more and more off and be unable to accurately tell you where you were, and atomic clocks at different altitudes can also measure it. 

 

Much in sci-fi is based on this including in Bionicle, especially the Vahi. There's no reason to disregard it for Bionicle consideration, considering the principle is canon in Bionicle. Greg also confirmed that different dimensions can flow at different average time rates as seen with The Kingdom dimension.

 

If you have trouble picturing it, it would be like watching time lapse video (for faster time) or slowed footage like the Matrix effects of "bullet time" (for slow). You can search for videos like these online to get a feel for it (though in real physics, extreme slowing would make the colors look redder and dimmer and speeding would make them bluer and brighter, but this is probably ignored in Bionicle physics).

 

 

I would not have thought of the long lifespans seeming that way, but you are correct that that has nothing to do with what we mean by faster or slower time. That's simply more time.


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 25 2013 - 12:29 AM.

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#24 Offline Exitium

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Posted Feb 25 2013 - 02:33 PM

I appreciate the lesson on relativity, bonesiii, although I am actually familiar with special and general relativity (and admittedly a bit rusty).  I don't deny that time dilation certainly exists in our universe and that from one reference frame time appears to be moving at a difference rate depending on your velocity (which leads to all sorts of interesting paradoxes, as I'm sure you are aware).  My problem with discussing the "speed" of time is that the rate of anything is defined as the amount of something that occurs per unit of time.  Therefore time moving at twice its normal "rate" is identical to everything in the universe moving at twice its normal speed in the same amount of time.  To discuss the "rate" of time has issues with self-reference and circular reasoning.  So to rephrase my earlier questions, how can we know whether time is truly moving "faster" or that everything in that universe is moving faster?  My answer is that the distinction between the two has no physical meaning.

 

We can use this same principle to address what's going on with the Vahi.  If we look at the classic scene where Vakama slows down time in the second movie to stop the shadow hand from killing him, giving Lhikan enough time to save his life, the natural instinct is to say that the Vahi slowed down time.  In response, I would pose the following question: Would the mask achieve the same effect if everything (every object, every atom, every physical process) in the Vahi's range of power moved at a slower speed than before?  In that case, we couldn't really tell the difference between time moving more slowly and everything moving more slowly through time.  From a philosophical perspective, that is why I say the question has no meaning.

 

Or we could avoid that entire line of discussion and say that the theory that time behaves differently in the Bionicle universe is likely false because of the principle of parsimony (Occam's razor) and a general lack of evidence.

 

(As an aside to bonesiii, I actually took a class in quantum mechanics and other modern physics during my senior year of high school in which my final project was a presentation on the theories of time.  As soon as I made that post last night and went to bed, I realized that I had forgotten to address relativity and that would blow major holes in my argument as originally presented, so that was an oops on my part.  So while I know that you were only trying to expand my intellectual horizons, keep in mind that just because someone doesn't offer particular knowledge in their post doesn't mean they need a full blown lecture on how it works :))


Edited by Exitium, Feb 25 2013 - 02:34 PM.

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#25 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 25 2013 - 05:35 PM

To discuss the "rate" of time has issues with self-reference and circular reasoning.

Again -- I just want to make sure there's no confusion -- this is exactly why we're talking about "relative" time -- the comparision between two different rates. This is what this topic is about, so the label of "rate of time" is appropriate here. He's asking about Bionicle's time compared to ours. :)

 

Time itself does not actually move from a purely objective (transtemporal) perspective, but the importance of "rate" remains nonetheless. I often describe time with the metaphor of an old-fashioned film reel. From a transtemporal perspective -- outside of time, or in this case a human looking at the reel -- you can see all the slides at once.

 

In this case, it would be like looking at two different reels and seeing that in one, the slides are compressed lengthwise. On the other, the slides seem stretched out. If you played the two side-by-side with the same equipment, you'd go through the shorter slides faster than the other. (Nevermind that this analogy kinds breaks down here because if you took it literally the compressed one wouldn't really play properly. :P) If the characters in one film could see the other film and comment on it they would say it is going slower or faster. That's because they're in a temporal perspective.

 

Yet from your transtemporal perspective (this is the part you are talking about) time really doesn't "move" really. That's true, but irrelevant to what we're talking about here. It doesn't change the fact that time in Bionicle could go faster or slower than "ours" (fictional version of ours) if it existed in relation to Bionicle's dimension.

 

 

So to rephrase my earlier questions, how can we know whether time is truly moving "faster" or that everything in that universe is moving faster?

This is an irrelevant semantics question, ultimately, since we simply define "time" in this context as "everything's overall rate". :) The point is that it's not the same as normal concepts of speed in which for example your atoms will still spin normally even though a car goes faster, etc. When we say that "time goes faster" we simply mean that absolutely everything in that area is affected.

 

If you're asking if we know whether time really is a "substance", that's beyond my pay grade. :P Although I've got (and have heard) a lot of theories on it that say yes and no, and the one I lean towards is both yes and no -- that the whole concept of a "thing" can be transcended when you get so basic as to consider spacetime and quantum mechanics, etc., yet the patterns of physics still exist regardless of what labels you put on them or how they are generated, so they're still real.

 

 

My answer is that the distinction between the two has no physical meaning.

This is true only for an observer in (and of) only his own reference frame. As soon as you can observe other reference frames (and really this is a gradient effect so there's no smooth boundaries of it; it fades and grows the faster/more-gravity you get), it has physical meaning. As seen in GPS, etc. It also causes redshifts in light which is important in a lot of ways, such as your weather forecaster relying on the Doppler effect that this causes to tell you whether it's going to rain or not, etc.

 

And anyways, what I'm trying to get across is that it is the view you're putting forward that really has no physical meaning of any importance, so it isn't of any help to dispute the use of the term. See below.

 

We can use this same principle to address what's going on with the Vahi.  If we look at the classic scene where Vakama slows down time in the second movie to stop the shadow hand from killing him, giving Lhikan enough time to save his life, the natural instinct is to say that the Vahi slowed down time.

No, it's canon fact. It made time in one area slower than the surrounding (observing) areas. Or, from Vakama's point of view, time outside him and the hand was moving faster. This had the important physical effect of giving Lhikan enough time to get up there as you say. So what would be the point in debating this? Can you imagine as Lhikan is dying, he says, "Vakama, remember, this is very important... you didn't really slow down time..."? :P Of course not. Because he did. To say otherwise has no practical value. (Nor backing in physics either.)

 

The point is, it isn't we fans making some sort of faulty assumption in saying the Mask of Time controls time. That is what the story team says it does (as the name implies ;)), and it's their universe, so it does, period.

 

In response, I would pose the following question: Would the mask achieve the same effect if everything (every object, every atom, every physical process) in the Vahi's range of power moved at a slower speed than before?

But you say that as if that isn't what it does. That's exactly what it does. That's "time." :)

 

We are made out of "everything", and parts of "everything" are all we have to measure anything. We have no means to directly measure spacetime other than parts of "everything." :P So no, we can't be sure our theories of spacetime are quite correct, but that basically becomes irrelevant, because any alternative has to be an untestable hypothesis (or as I call it, a "patch"; which is essentially what Occam's Razor seeks to cut away, the problem with it being that you could come up with a patch to make anything seem to fit anything). 

 

And since "time" is just an English word anyways, we're in charge of what we apply it to, and we apply it to the rate of motion of "everything". This is what it has always meant in English, long before Einstein; he didn't invent the idea.

 

Basically, you're inventing an idea, defining it in a way that makes it untestable, and asking if it might be real, knowing that we can't answer it -- what's the point? More importantly, why do this only for time? Why not ask whether Tahu is really a Toa, or a Matoran who experiences illusions that he's a Toa and so does everybody else, etc. Basically, why do people seek to come up with these pointless alternatives only when time and similar physics things are in view, yet normally we simply take for granted that what is canon is canon? I suggest that it is only because to you, time does not seem as easy to understand, just 'cuz you're not used to it.

 

When you do get used to it as I am, it is just as strange to suggest that the Mask of Time doesn't control time as it would be to suggest that Kopaka isn't really shooting beams of ice but is shooting a hologram that perfectly imitates ice in absolutely every way and never lets up.

 

Does this help? :)

 

 

keep in mind that just because someone doesn't offer particular knowledge in their post doesn't mean they need a full blown lecture on how it works

I had a feeling you understood more than you conveyed, but I've learned from experience that for the sake of others reading along who might not know all of what we physics geeks think of as basics, its best to introduce the basics in plain language each time they are discussed. :) And I'm still not sure you've quite caught that temporal relativity is the subject of this topic -- specifically, the relative rate of time in one frame compared to another. So for any posts to be on topic here they must discuss this. Your post appeared to miss that. (But ah well, it happens. :P)

 

To use another analogy, it's like size. We do not need to know how tall a Toa "really" is in order to know that a Toa is taller than a Matoran. Right? Similarly, two different dimensions (or areas) can have different rates of time. Simple.


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 25 2013 - 06:03 PM.

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