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Kanohi Questions


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#1 Guest_PrometheusLKR_*

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Posted Feb 09 2013 - 07:47 PM

I had a few different questions, which happen to all be about Kanohi:

 

1) A friend and I were talking about the idea that Kanohi have truly "standard forms." I thought they did, because I said that when Matoran become Toa, their masks transform into the standard Great forms. He said that Kanohi forms are a social norm and your Kanohi transform into what you think they should look like. Who's right?

 

2) How did the Toa Metru not know what their Kanohi were? You would think either the carver would have told them, or Vakama could have identified them.

 

3) If Jala was wearing a Noble Hau, and Tahu was wearing a Great Hau, why did their masks look the same?


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#2 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Feb 09 2013 - 10:50 PM

1. Most Kanohi of a certain type look similar, correct, but they CAN be different. 

 

2. I think it was mainly for movie purposes. I mean, I'm sure they could have found out other ways, but they had to find out how to use them for themselves. 

 

3. I think it's just because the sets had the same mask. 


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#3 Offline northmarch

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Posted Feb 09 2013 - 10:57 PM

1 your right, they do have standard/defult forms.2. As far as I can tell, the 12 original Kanohi designs are the only ones common around Metru Nui ( Metru Matoran masks being shaped like great masks is artistic licence to make them more recognisable). Now, the Metru don't realy know anything about the Matoran to Toa process, at first I suppose they simply didn't know they were still wearing the same Kanohi. Besides, knowing what the mask is and using it are two entirely different things. So it doesn't realy matter if Vakama recognised them at first or not.3. You've got me on that one. Perhaps lihkan's mask was forged differently to most.

Edited by northmarch, Feb 09 2013 - 10:58 PM.

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#4 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Feb 10 2013 - 01:12 AM

1. Yes, there is a standard form

 

2. I asked the same question some time back. It appears that although Vakama, for example, knew well the different Kanohi shapes and names, he did notknow the powers they were associated with. You see, Vakama had never forged actual Great Kanohi before being given the task to forge the Kanohi Vahi, which made it that much more difficult for him (this has been confirmed by Greg). And there was no one to tell the Toa Metru the powers, since the only Turaga on the island... well... wasn't the Turaga.

 

3. Because they wanted to use a new mold for the Toa Lhikan set so it would sell better. Storyline-wise though, Lhikan had been wearing his Hau for so long that it had sort of shaped itself to suit his own face and features better. Remember, a Kanohi often has an imprint of its user for some time after it is taken off. When Lhikan died, the mask was taken off and it was off for a long time, long enough for the imprint to, at least partially, fade. When Jaller donned the mask, it shaped itself to suit Jaller, so it was different.

 

As for why Jaller's features shape the mask into a "standard" one and Lhikan had an exceptional shape... maybe Lhikan's features were just weird or something? :P 


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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 10 2013 - 08:37 AM

1) Actually as far as I've been able to find officially we don't know, and there's evidence both ways. For masks forged by maskmakers, we do know that there's standard forms, yet these standard forms are also social conventions. Maskmakes can and sometimes do deviate from the exact standard style, and masks of a completely different shape can be forged, as in the example of the Toa Hagah's masks. However, in my opinion past topics and answers given in S&T have far, far overestimated how often this maskmaker convention applies to the masks that people actually wear, for the simple reason that we only have confirmation that masks are forged from Kanoka in Metru Nui, and BS01 now states that Kanoka were only invented a few thousand years ago in story-present. Thus, for the vast majority of its history, Metru Nui and the wider MU all just had masks made by the machines that make new beings, and/or on Artakha, etc. In other words, prior to the invention of Kanoka, there probably were no maskmakers.

 

This results in the obvious conclusion that the standard shapes (of some masks) were probably chosen by the Great Beings when they invented Matoran, Toa, etc. in the early years. This is something we have usually overlooked (correct me if I'm missing something). So, the conventions of those ancient mask shapes were not chosen by mask forgers. (Though since Kanoka were invented, new mixed powers were made, thus new shapes had to be invented, and those were chosen by forgers alone.)

 

And then this gives us two possible answers to cases like Toa-izing.

 

First, if something like my old cyberclay theory is correct about the protodermis molecule, large amounts of data can be stored in its particles. So, all Kanohi particles could store a memory of the original GB-chosen standard shapes, so for those powers (which likely includes all 12 of the 2001 mask powers, including the Toa Metru's six), the transformation itself triggers those shapes. Evidence for this includes the fact that protodermis already stores data in how to run protodermic powers, masks can have imprints of "spirits" attached, etc.

 

Second, the "mental image" theory is correct. Evidence for this is that for the shape of the Toa themselves, Greg directly confirmed this is what determines their shape. IMO this one is more likely (not that I disagree with my cyberclay theory :P -- just no need for it to explain this part). Each of the six was probably aware of the standard Great and Noble shapes of the Matoran masks they had on -- and probably aware that the maskmakers who had made theirs had stylized them for Matoran.

 

A third possibility is that the GBs programmed a mental image of those shapes into all Matoran's minds, rather than protodermis particles (included in the standard knowledge download they get from the spawning machines, along with language, etc.). And in the case of new masks, they might learn them, or the particles might, or the machines might. :shrugs:

 

So basically, we don't know exactly which is the case (or I don't, as far as I recall :P -- but Greg might have answered it on the old forum).

 

2) The question really is why Vakama didn't know which shape went with which power (and whether he didn't; read on), since he was the one with a job like that. Nokama and Whenua also could have been knowledgeable about such things, being a teacher and an archivist. We wouldn't expect Onewa, Nuju, or Matau to know it.

 

Greg did give an official answer to this at one point, I believe, but I've lost track of exactly what it was. It's often discussed and there are a variety of theories about it. But I'm pretty sure the main answer is Toatapio's answer.

 

And Vakama might have known what the powers were, basically, if only because the names of each mask are words in the Matoran language that they all knew, which were the names of the powers. In that case, what northmarch said would be the basic answer. Knowing as "book knowledge" that "this shape goes for the power named this" isn't the same as knowing how to use that power, or knowing exactly what the nuances of it are. It appears you have to learn something like that to use masks, which is why in all other cases in the story there was something that provided that knowledge for Toa (the Nuva were formally trained, the Inika's organic masks informed them, and as Mahri the Ignika informed them).

 

3) Greg told us the "why", if not all of the "how", for Jaller's mask. He said that it turned back to the Great form (but chose the standard) in order to honor Lhikan for what he was in most of the time the Matoran knew him, as Toa Lhikan. This seems to be evidence for the mental image idea, that Jaller was more familiar with the standard (Tahu-style) Great form, or his particles were set to that shape.

 

As for the how, it appears that such a transformation can occur when a person is given a new mask, although it might only be due to its being a powered mask, or Lhikan's spirit still being attached, or something.

 

As far as I can tell, the 12 original Kanohi designs are the only ones common around Metru Nui ( Metru Matoran masks being shaped like great masks is artistic licence to make them more recognisable).

Common, perhaps, but we do know there were others, from Sayger's canon art (including some of the powers I got Greg to canonize), when some Matoran were shown when the five Toa Mahri were teleported back to Metru Nui at the end of 2007. Also, in the past three thousand years or thereabouts, the shapes of the new powers might have become more common there than elsewhere in the MU (though still rare overall) since Kanoka were invented there.


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#6 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Feb 10 2013 - 03:28 PM

Thus, for the vast majority of its history, Metru Nui and the wider MU all just had masks made by the machines that make new beings, and/or on Artakha, etc. In other words, prior to the invention of Kanoka, there probably were no maskmakers.

 

But what if someone lost his or her mask? And the Toa Hagah had new masks forged for them, didn't they, probably before Kanoka were invented?


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#7 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 10 2013 - 04:34 PM

Before Kanoka, they most likely poured the liquid protodermis directly into molds. This might not have the same accuracy as molding a pre-created metal disk does, but I don't see any reason why they would be unable to make proper masks.As for the Vakama issue, I have no idea what the creators were intending, but when I look at the scene in LoMN where he activates his Huna for the first time I can't help but notice that he poses before he does so. His surprise is more at "hey, that worked!" than "oh, it's invisibility!"
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#8 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 11:57 AM

Á few quotes from the Adventures books prove that the Toa Metru didn't know the powers of their masks. The first issue clearly describes Onewa and Whenua thinking about their mask powers and the fact that they have no idea what they were.

 

Also, Matau and Vakama were very surprised about Nokama being able to talk to Kikanalo, which also implies they never knew the power of the mask. Whenua and Nuju were puzzled why Turaga Lhikan made them carry rocks and walk around blindfolded in the prison cells. If they had known their mask powers, surely they would have made the connection there.

 

And about the creation of Kanohi, I'm pretty sure Greg confirmed it at some point that Kanohi were made by pouring liquid protodermis into moulds, as Katuko said, before the Kanoka. The Kanoka were just a more efficient way.


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#9 Guest_Takua the Chronicler7_*

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 03:27 PM

1. Yes they do.

 

2. They didn't know how to activate their mask powers, and probably didn't know their mask powers due to the fact that as Matoran, they couldn't activate the masks so they wouldn't truly know their true powers. For example, the Mahiki is the mask of illusion, and a Matoran could of thought that it only created illusions. But after Matau used it, he discovered that he could shapeshift.

 

3. The sets for Jaller as a Matoran and Tahu as a Toa Mata(original form) were released in 2001 and 2003. Lego/Greg didn't reveal Jaller's Hau to be Lhikan's Noble Hau until 2004.


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#10 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 03:48 PM

2. They didn't know how to activate their mask powers, and probably didn't know their mask powers due to the fact that as Matoran, they couldn't activate the masks so they wouldn't truly know their true powers. For example, the Mahiki is the mask of illusion, and a Matoran could of thought that it only created illusions. But after Matau used it, he discovered that he could shapeshift.
There's also the fact that their Matoran masks would have been molded into powerless versions, so even if the shape was the same when they transformed they couldn't take that as a definite clue. We also know that Great Masks look different from their Matoran versions (Matoran Vakama had a noble-styled Huna while a powered Great form might never have been seen in action by him on Metru Nui), so I guess his ignorance of the Great Huna's power could be excused that way.For a skilled mask-maker, molding a Kanohi is likely as easy as looking up the correct power mixture on a chart somewhere, then ordering it made. Mask-maker receives a custom Kanoka of Invisibility, and he then heats it so that he can bend the metal into shape. Vakama might indeed not remember every Kanoka mixture and every Kanohi form (we know there might be a ton of powers we simply haven't seen in story, each with regional varieties in shape), so his job is simply to skillfully form the metal as asked. Hence he had trouble with a Vahi, too: There was no known disk mixture that would ensure its power, and he likely made up the shape himself.

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#11 Guest_Takua the Chronicler7_*

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 04:22 PM

2. They didn't know how to activate their mask powers, and probably didn't know their mask powers due to the fact that as Matoran, they couldn't activate the masks so they wouldn't truly know their true powers. For example, the Mahiki is the mask of illusion, and a Matoran could of thought that it only created illusions. But after Matau used it, he discovered that he could shapeshift.
There's also the fact that their Matoran masks would have been molded into powerless versions, so even if the shape was the same when they transformed they couldn't take that as a definite clue. We also know that Great Masks look different from their Matoran versions (Matoran Vakama had a noble-styled Huna while a powered Great form might never have been seen in action by him on Metru Nui), so I guess his ignorance of the Great Huna's power could be excused that way.For a skilled mask-maker, molding a Kanohi is likely as easy as looking up the correct power mixture on a chart somewhere, then ordering it made. Mask-maker receives a custom Kanoka of Invisibility, and he then heats it so that he can bend the metal into shape. Vakama might indeed not remember every Kanoka mixture and every Kanohi form (we know there might be a ton of powers we simply haven't seen in story, each with regional varieties in shape), so his job is simply to skillfully form the metal as asked. Hence he had trouble with a Vahi, too: There was no known disk mixture that would ensure its power, and he likely made up the shape himself.

I see. I totally forgot about the Kanoka used in the process of mask making.


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#12 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 05:01 PM

Well, even before the Kanoka there would have been different Matoran at work with melting the protodermis used for masks. A painter doesn't care about how his paint is made so long as he receives the right type, after all. I can order a vat of "shielding"-proto for my Hau molds, but I won't necessarily know how to mix it myself.
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#13 Offline darkslizer

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Posted Feb 24 2013 - 08:16 AM

Well, all Kanohi CAN look different, when noticing Tahu and Lhikan's Toa masks. Which brings up the second question. The fact that they can look different, that would somewhat impair Vakama's ability to identify them. And third, I'm assuming it is just because of the sets having the same masks. However, that is the only Noble Hau we' ve seen, so maybe a "regular" Great Hau and a "regular" Noble Hau just look the same by default. Except yellow. I guess.

Edited by darkslizer, Feb 24 2013 - 08:16 AM.

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#14 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 09:35 AM

There is also the option that as a Matoran, they never knew what mask they were wearing, so when then became Toa, they still had know clue as what there mask powers were.  This could just be me, but I have never heard of any character using a mirror in the morning to see if their mask was on straight, it just always was. Except for Takua, but that one never fit him to begin with.

 

As for Jaller and Lhikan's mask, I just always say that Lhikan's version of the mask was the noble version.  Given the fact that mask change shape and size when fitted to a face properly, the mask ended up looking like it's great version, which wasn't all too different to begin off with.


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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 10:18 AM

There is also the option that as a Matoran, they never knew what mask they were wearing, so when then became Toa, they still had know clue as what there mask powers were.  This could just be me, but I have never heard of any character using a mirror in the morning to see if their mask was on straight, it just always was.

It would be pretty hard to live thousands of years and not know which shape your own mask was in. :P At least in Metru Nui we saw Vhisola's home with a picture of herself:

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Screen_1A.png

 

And think of all the reflective surfaces! Every glass window, every chute's sheath (albeit distorted, granted), the pools and canals in Ga-Metru, the glass exhibits of Onu-Metru, the metal everywhere, the ice and giant crystals of Ko-Metru, etc. Surely somewhere along the way they'd notice their mask shape. Also, a mirror would still make sense to clean their mask, etc.


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#16 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 02:34 PM

There is also the option that as a Matoran, they never knew what mask they were wearing, so when then became Toa, they still had know clue as what there mask powers were.  This could just be me, but I have never heard of any character using a mirror in the morning to see if their mask was on straight, it just always was.

It would be pretty hard to live thousands of years and not know which shape your own mask was in. :P At least in Metru Nui we saw Vhisola's home with a picture of herself:

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Screen_1A.png

 

And think of all the reflective surfaces! Every glass window, every chute's sheath (albeit distorted, granted), the pools and canals in Ga-Metru, the glass exhibits of Onu-Metru, the metal everywhere, the ice and giant crystals of Ko-Metru, etc. Surely somewhere along the way they'd notice their mask shape. Also, a mirror would still make sense to clean their mask, etc.

Well, I'm not sure if that picture is technically canon. In Mystery of Metru Nui, her "dwelling" was full of pictures of Nokama, not herself. Although, I do agree with you; not knowing your own mask shape is kind of like not knowing what your face looks like.


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#17 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 03:25 PM

1: Masks are similar to shirts, so to speak. there's a normal version, (like a T-shirt), but you can deviate from the norm to suit you, say, a shirt with long sleeves. so there are standard issue masks, but they can be shaped however the wearer likes.

 

2: the Metru didn't know what they're masks powers are because it takes some getting used to. imagine you just woke up one morning knowing you had super powers, but didn't know what they were. same thing with the Metru. Vakama probably couldn't identify masks. as for the carver telling them, that's like asking what a shirt's made of. it doesn't really matter, so long as you have one.

 

3: Their masks probably looked the same because Lhikan had worn his (which was given to jaller) since he had become a Toa, IE a REALLY long time ago. perhaps it left a permanent mark on it, so it looked great but didn't function like one. Tahu had a great mask, so it looks the same because they were/are both great.


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