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Improvised Mask Powers

Masks Kanohi Mask Powers Toa

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#1 Offline Darcsyde

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 10:41 AM

[color=#0000ff;][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]So, I've been pondering this for a while. In one of the books, Pohatu (I believe) uses his mask of Speed to increase the motion of his molecules (atoms?) to a point where they're vibrating so rapidly that he can pass through solid objects. This made me wonder if the powers of the other Great Kanohi could be used in similar improvisational fashions. [/color][/font]

 

[color=#0000ff;][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]For example, could the Pakari (strength) be used to strengthen specific parts of the body, such as the legs for running? Or, could the Kaukau be utilized to breath in liquids other than water, or be used as a "gas mask" to filter the user's air intake. [/color][/font]

 

[color=#0000ff;][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Improvisation probably wouldn't work so well for all masks. Nokama's is a mask of translation, and you can't do much more on that level. [/color][/font]

 

[color=#0000ff;][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Just a thought.[/color][/font]


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#2 Offline delilah

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 11:24 AM

An interesting theory, but a quick check of BS01 reveals that this ability that Pohatu displayed is simply a property of the Kakama Nuva. Your average Kakama does not allow its user to vibrate their molecules.


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#3 Offline Darcsyde

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 01:41 PM

An interesting theory, but a quick check of BS01 reveals that this ability that Pohatu displayed is simply a property of the Kakama Nuva. Your average Kakama does not allow its user to vibrate their molecules.

 

[color=#0000ff;][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Ah, yes. I thought it was the Nuva.[/color][/font]


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#4 Offline Pikiru

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 02:24 PM

[color=#000080;]I never really thought about that, but I think you could be right that other masks could have side abilities.[/color] [color=#000080;]I know that the Kaukau Nuva can shut off a beings ability to breath air (making them drown on land), but I am not sure about the gas mask thing. [/color] [color=#000080;]Also in the books Pohatu (and gali) used the Kakama Nuva to vibrate the users atoms, not a regular Kakama (as mentioned above). [/color] [color=#000080;]So maybe improvision can only be done (or at least done better) with Nuva Kanohi, do to there higher power level and the ability to share the power with more than one person. [/color] [color=#000080;]If this is the case then I would think that the Pakari Nuva could strengthen certain muscles (like the legs) in the being who is wearing it (or other beings nearby), but I don't think that the regular Pakari could do that (though that is just my opinion).[/color]


Edited by Pikiru, Feb 11 2013 - 02:26 PM.

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#5 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 05:14 PM

Well, the Pakari can strengthen your legs. In BIONICLE: Chronicles 1, Kopaka finds his Pakari and does an extended jump to (try to) make it across lava.


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#6 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 08:03 PM

Well then, maybe a Pakari Nuva could do exactly what he said. 


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Posted Feb 11 2013 - 09:10 PM

Well, the Pakari can strengthen your legs. In BIONICLE: Chronicles 1, Kopaka finds his Pakari and does an extended jump to (try to) make it across lava.

:o Kopaka! Hahaha, well i never really read the Bionicle Chronicles, might have to get the books in the future to read about this :)


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 17 2013 - 09:57 AM.
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#8 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 10:00 AM

The vibrational intangibility was not improvisation, it was a secondary part of the Nuva power which Pohatu had to sort of discover on his own through sensing what the mask could do and theorizing. And the presence of a secondary power like that is mostly unique to the Kakama Nuva, so no, another Toa will not be able to accomplish a comparably extremely different effect with their own masks.

There may be a few exceptions. The Great Mahiki for example adds the secondary power of shapeshifting.

 

As for improvising, though, within a much more narrow bounds of similarity, it can't be ruled out, but it may be impossible with most powers because the powers are often basically "switch on and aim" type powers. Elemental powers by contrast are highly nuanced in how you can control them, and can be thought of as basically synonymous with improvising.

 

For example, the Pakari is stated to make the user strong. There's nothing implying that they could focus this power on just specific parts of them. If they could define a zone for the power like that, it would beg the question of why they can't normally extend the power to other targets instead of just the user. However, perhaps the Pakari Nuva does give more nuanced control, since it can extend strength to others. :shrugs:

 

There also can be some in-between powers. Mahiki's normal power is a good example; the end product will need to be improvised in order to make any image at all, and therefore you have free reign to imagine whatever image you want to project. So that one goes way beyond just switch on and/or aim. And even in the aim category there is more control than the mere "switch on" powers like Pakari. Telekinesis for example gives you variable focus effectiveness, and you can move the object around where you want.

 

But then again, it may be only an assumption that any of these powers are literally "switch on" and don't give a gradient of options between nothing and fully on. It could be that the Pakari can let you become only partially stronger, but that users normally just amp it up to max every time since that's more likely to be needed.

 

 

Re: Kaukau working in other liquids -- there's actually slight evidence for it since we already know it works in two different liquids, although those two are intentionally mimicking each other -- real water and protowater. IMO the power just takes oxygen that is absorbed into a liquid and pulls it inside the mask into air form. (Possibly also the other components of normal air if present, but just oxygen would do.) Therefore, as long as the liquid wasn't inherently harmful to the user, and contained dissolved oxygen like water does, it should work. However, the range of liquids that you're likely to run into with those properties is probably very small. :P

 

To sort out poisonous gas? Maybe. The question would have to be if it works on any "fluid" (which can be defined as including gasses, referring to their non-solid state) or only liquids.

 

One answer to this would rule out working in other liquids -- if it works only by a limited Water elemental power that is telekinetically holding the water outside the mouth, plus a bit of limited Air control to move the air in. If that was the case it could not work in any other fluid, whether liquid or gas.

 

If it works like a forcefield that pushes out any non-Air, though, then logically it should work in any fluid with dissolved oxygen inside it and that's likely to include virtually all poisonous gasses. (Assuming the gas isn't poisonous to their other biological components or highly acidic.) I don't know of any way to get an exact answer, other than Greg, though. If you're curious enough you could try searching the old S&T to see if he ever answered this. He may have; it seems slightly familiar.

 

Rau -- Actually there may be room for some improvising in a few situations. Say you're talking to an enemy who has demanded you translate something or die. They'd have no way of verifying what you say, so you could read what it says, deduce why they want this info, and imagine a cover story to speak instead. And the Great version opens up the possibility of talking to a wide variety of Rahi; it would be up to you to think of this, choose which Rahi (if multiple types available) and then what to say, how to convince them to help if necessary, etc. If you're skilled you could potentially enlist a vast army of trained creatures to obey your every command, giving tons of room for improvisation.

 

Well, the Pakari can strengthen your legs. In BIONICLE: Chronicles 1, Kopaka finds his Pakari and does an extended jump to (try to) make it across lava.

Was it stated to be just his legs? Switching on the whole Pakari power would include the legs, so just from how you worded it here, that doesn't imply it was only the legs. It might be useful, though, if it allocates greater strength to the part you limit it to. I don't recall anything like that being stated but that's my mem...


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#9 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 10:50 AM

Re: Kaukau working in other liquids -- there's actually slight evidence for it since we already know it works in two different liquids, although those two are intentionally mimicking each other -- real water and protowater. IMO the power just takes oxygen that is absorbed into a liquid and pulls it inside the mask into air form. (Possibly also the other components of normal air if present, but just oxygen would do.)
A slight problem with that theory is the part where a (shared) Kaukau Nuva can be used to choke an enemy on dry land. It sounds like it actually alters the way your lungs work to accept only liquids, rather than blocking off water and filtering oxygen from it.

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#10 Online Zeene

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 03:44 PM

If one were to be able to nuance one's mask's powers to great extent, Telekinesis would arguably be the most powerful ability: since everything is constituted of extremely small particles, and interaction between those particles, it would grant you near-unlimited possibilities: ranging from simply tearing all the particles of your enemy apart, effectively reducing him/her to less-than-dust, to being able to bend the laws of physics themselves, all by just manipulating the tiniest of particles.


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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 07:35 PM

Re: Kaukau working in other liquids -- there's actually slight evidence for it since we already know it works in two different liquids, although those two are intentionally mimicking each other -- real water and protowater. IMO the power just takes oxygen that is absorbed into a liquid and pulls it inside the mask into air form. (Possibly also the other components of normal air if present, but just oxygen would do.)
A slight problem with that theory is the part where a (shared) Kaukau Nuva can be used to choke an enemy on dry land. It sounds like it actually alters the way your lungs work to accept only liquids, rather than blocking off water and filtering oxygen from it.

Fair enough.

 

If one were to be able to nuance one's mask's powers to great extent, Telekinesis would arguably be the most powerful ability: since everything is constituted of extremely small particles, and interaction between those particles, it would grant you near-unlimited possibilities: ranging from simply tearing all the particles of your enemy apart, effectively reducing him/her to less-than-dust, to being able to bend the laws of physics themselves, all by just manipulating the tiniest of particles.

Yeah, I've often thought that most powers, if not all, could be thought of as sub-powers of Telekinesis. I'm pretty sure that the mask power at least has a limit that you can only move large-scale things, not subatomic particles. But I wouldn't be surprised if some similar effects could be done by focusing on reactive substances or small parts of something.

 

One example that comes to mind is maybe you could (if you were a superexpert) reprogam a Vahki. Since they work by tiny clockwork mechanisms.


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#12 Offline TechnicRage

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Posted Feb 17 2013 - 09:15 PM

Whoa, getting to science-y for me. I'll just be walking away now...


Edited by TechnicRage, Feb 24 2013 - 09:43 PM.

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#13 Offline -Jaller-

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 02:01 AM

Whoa, getting to science-y for me. I'll just be walking away now...

Well said. This discusion is getting too science-y :dazed:


Edited by Jaller1234567890, Feb 18 2013 - 02:01 AM.

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#14 Offline Zeene

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 05:43 AM

Whoa, getting to science-y for me. I'll just be walking away now...

Well said. This discusion is getting too science-y :dazed:

 

One does not simply have enough science.

But yeah, you can have lotsa' fun using Telekinesis to manipulate, i.e., the Higgs Boson.


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#15 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 06:37 AM

Reminds of the time someone figured that True Creation, a Conjuration spell from Dungeons and Dragons, could logically be used to create antimatter, since the spell didn't specify any limits on the type of material once you reached the "True" moniker. As such, Wizard casting this spell with a lenient DM could create at least 4 cubic feet of antimatter, which by science terms translates to about 75 tons of TNT... which is more powerful than the strongest thermonuclear bomb we have detonated.The point here is that despite the mask description not saying so, I think it's rather clear that a Mask of Telekinesis can't micro-manage molecules; and likely not work as clockwork-control either. The times we have seen it in action, it has encompassed and lifted an entire object at once, and despite likely being able to grip only part of the object I can't see it having that level of finesse. The Mask of Mind Control seems more suited for that, actually, despite the Vahki being fully robotic.
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#16 Online Zeene

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 06:46 AM

Reminds of the time someone figured that True Creation, a Conjuration spell from Dungeons and Dragons, could logically be used to create antimatter, since the spell didn't specify any limits on the type of material once you reached the "True" moniker. As such, Wizard casting this spell with a lenient DM could create at least 4 cubic feet of antimatter, which by science terms translates to about 75 tons of TNT... which is more powerful than the strongest thermonuclear bomb we have detonated.The point here is that despite the mask description not saying so, I think it's rather clear that a Mask of Telekinesis can't micro-manage molecules; and likely not work as clockwork-control either. The times we have seen it in action, it has encompassed and lifted an entire object at once, and despite likely being able to grip only part of the object I can't see it having that level of finesse. The Mask of Mind Control seems more suited for that, actually, despite the Vahki being fully robotic.

 

 

Still, the idea that a Toa would, through some way, gain a more nuanced control over his/her mask's powers, remains an interesting one.

However, even is Bionicle were to come back, I do not see this happen to more than one Toa with a mask-power like this, or if there were to be multiple Toa that could do similar things, it would have to be less potent with their mask's power, to prevent extreme Godmodding.


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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 08:58 AM

Where did the discussion get "too sciencey"? :lookaround:

 

Anywho:

 

 

likely not work as clockwork-control either. The times we have seen it in action, it has encompassed and lifted an entire object at once, and despite likely being able to grip only part of the object I can't see it having that level of finesse.

Well, it should be able to lift a pebble, right? Or no? Where do we think the line is drawn? After all, a gear is an object.

 

If the reasoning is that a gear is too connected (via the axle, which may be valid), then where do we draw the line? Say you walk into a room, and there's a light switch on the wall, same size as standard in our world. Would that work, do we think? It's connected to the wall, which is connected to the ground, so you could make the argument that it's part of an object that is the whole planet (or giant robot).

 

On this subject, Onua was shown lifting several objects at once in the MNOG. What that means and whether that has canon value is debatable but figure I might as well bring it up for discussion. :)


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#18 Offline The Legendary TNT

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 09:58 AM

Ok, as far as Kopaka w/a Pakari in BIONICLE: Chronicles #1 goes, he is first seen using it to give him more strength to paddle on a quickly melting ice berg. "Jabbing his blade into the lava, Kopaka put all the strength of his new mask into his effort as he pushed away from the island" (Hapka 69). (Yeah, that's some MLA formatting to back myself up!  B-) ) This sentence shows him putting all of his strength into it, proving that you can focus the power.

 

Now for Pakari jumping. "'Now!' he shouted, leaping forward with all his might. The energy of the Pakari flowed through him, giving him extra strength" (Hapka 72). This doesn't exactly show him focusing his power into his legs (although he might have), but also remember when you jump, you aren't just using your legs. You also use abs, arms and other parts of the body to make you jump. What's to say it's any different in a Toa?


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#19 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 10:00 AM

Grabbing a light switch and flicking it moves essentially just a single object. The rest is done by electrons and stuff; particles that the mask wouldn't be able to grab directly. Lifting a larger object - such as a really big rock - might need more focus, and lifting multiple objects might be easy or hard depending on what you do with them. Onua lifted some medium-sized objects and flung them forward; a typical use of Telekinesis.Twisting multiple big and small gears into specific positions sounds a lot more complicated, at least when the mechanism is encased in a Vahki shell already. I mean... these are humanoid robots with A.I and special powers, and they run on clockwork? I can only imagine the complexity of their inner workings.
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#20 Online Zeene

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 10:11 AM

Twisting multiple big and small gears into specific positions sounds a lot more complicated, at least when the mechanism is encased in a Vahki shell already. I mean... these are humanoid robots with A.I and special powers, and they run on clockwork? I can only imagine the complexity of their inner workings.

 

Well, as you might know, something being considered a computer doesn't require all the things we usually associate with one: all you need is a processing unit, AKA something you can calculate with, and something to store those calculations on.

So it wouldn't really be that hard to make that out of clockwork, but if you wanted to create a complex AI and fully-functioning humanoid robot, you'd probably need to stuff at least an entire country full of clockwork.

 

It could just be very, very small clockwork, though.

Or, alternatively, the Vahki AI is not actually inside of them, and they merely act as a sort-of "receiver", and send their senses (sight, hearing, feel, etc.) to the "central" AI.


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#21 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 11:34 AM

Ok, as far as Kopaka w/a Pakari in BIONICLE: Chronicles #1 goes, he is first seen using it to give him more strength to paddle on a quickly melting ice berg. "Jabbing his blade into the lava, Kopaka put all the strength of his new mask into his effort as he pushed away from the island" (Hapka 69). (Yeah, that's some MLA formatting to back myself up!  B-) ) This sentence shows him putting all of his strength into it, proving that you can focus the power.

 

Now for Pakari jumping. "'Now!' he shouted, leaping forward with all his might. The energy of the Pakari flowed through him, giving him extra strength" (Hapka 72). This doesn't exactly show him focusing his power into his legs (although he might have), but also remember when you jump, you aren't just using your legs. You also use abs, arms and other parts of the body to make you jump. What's to say it's any different in a Toa?

I wouldn't say it proves it. That could just as easily mean that his whole body was strengthened, and what percentage of that was available to the muscles needed for the effort of rowing, he used (there would be a similar thing to jumping there; you would need to use upper body, and legs to stabilize yourself). Because it's a common English figure of speech to say that you "throw all your strength into it", which isn't meant literally. Evidence, though, I agree. :)

 

Of course, let's keep in mind this is Hapka's word choice anyways which is often not quite canon. :shrugs:

 

Grabbing a light switch and flicking it moves essentially just a single object.

 

I meant to imply this for the Vahki, sorry if that wasn't clear. This is why you'd have to be really knowledgeable about how it works, but theoretically there should be several key gears that switch on or off major functions, and turning just one of them could entirely alter the robot's behavior. Say a "chase target" gear; switch it to "let target go". Every other clockwork mechanism would use its own system to adapt to that.

 

So the only limitations I can think of are that the gear or whatever would be too small to focus on (I doubt it but this is valid), or that it would carry too much weight due to the accumulated effect of other gears being locked into place around it (doubt that too because then it would seem the Vahki wouldn't be able to function at all, and it can be used to lift at least a whole Toa, at least the Great version).

 

Unless I'm wrong and Vahki are designed to be highly redundant. I wouldn't think so though because there's only so much space available for clockwork mechanisms, especially to accomplish the advanced things Vahki do.

 

I wonder, though, if there's a limit of requiring line of sight on the object.

 

It could just be very, very small clockwork, though.

Or, alternatively, the Vahki AI is not actually inside of them, and they merely act as a sort-of "receiver", and send their senses (sight, hearing, feel, etc.) to the "central" AI.

Greg confirmed it's inside them. Remember the damaged ones in 2005 that went kill-happy? The hives do communicate with them in some limited ways, though, so there may be some additional processing that goes on outside them.

 

It really needn't be like a whole country's worth of gears. They have a pretty big head and body to fit as much as is needed in, and we have to keep in mind it can include parts that run protodermic powers to make up for whatever the gears couldn't do in that size. (Greg confirmed to me that such a thing was possible on Metru Nui, but he didn't confirm or deny whether it's the case for Vahki as far as I know.) That could be comparable to parts inside clocks like quartz crystals or the battery that go a bit beyond mere gears. IMO the gears are mainly for the equivalent of transmission shifting, in a much more complicated sense, for locomotion.

 

Anywho... other mask powers...

 

Of course, there's Conjuring. :P The ultimate in improvising, though it's not recommended except for experts. Actually, part of the reasoning that went into that may speak to how much nuance there could or couldn't be in other powers, since it is to have the ability to run other powers if you describe the limits clearly. The idea there was that Matoran language is code in all the powers. Greg seems to have given the nod to that idea because of that; that somehow the protodermis molecules actually run Matoran language code, and there'd only be so much space for it. (Whether my cyberclay theory or not.)

 

That extrapolates to the idea that you couldn't have much nuance to most powers because that would mean defining more complex codes. That would also help explain why the elemental powers are in a defined, limited list of just a few. IMO that's probably because a more complex coding for all the elemental powers is inside every protodermis molecule always, and is just unlocked by Toa, etc. So the actual code for the controlling power would also be concise. This would support the idea that all protodermic powers (discounting the built-in elemental code) have to be able to be described by a relatively short but clear Matoran statement.

 

So, if this reasoning is right, there isn't room for a nuanced addition to enable for example Telekinesis to control just parts of atoms or molecules (not that any of you thought so, just for the record :P).


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#22 Offline Zeene

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 12:02 PM

But, we know that there are several other dimensions capable of supporting similar objects and lifeforms as the one in the "main" universe, and that travel between those dimensions is entirely possible.

So, what if the protodermis containing the code defining a mask's powers was actually in another dimension, and the effects are then channeled into the wearer's one. This would essentially make a mask that's "bigger on the inside", if you get that, and therefore could contain more, and more complex, code, since the size of those two dimensions isn't related whatsoever: you would even be able to fit an entire Mata Nui-robot filled with code inside a single mask. (not likely, but possible)


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#23 Offline Katuko

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 02:23 PM

Yeah, I can maybe stretch myself to accept ridiculous levels of nanotechnology inside every single protodermis molecule, but using other dimensions to channel the effects into each and every power-using object? Sorry, no. Opens up an entirely new can of worms about how the power travels and how it even works in the dimension it is taken from, and I've always viewed these powers to be fairly simple, at their base.
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#24 Online bonesiii

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Posted Feb 18 2013 - 02:30 PM

But, we know that there are several other dimensions capable of supporting similar objects and lifeforms as the one in the "main" universe, and that travel between those dimensions is entirely possible.

So, what if the protodermis containing the code defining a mask's powers was actually in another dimension, and the effects are then channeled into the wearer's one. This would essentially make a mask that's "bigger on the inside", if you get that, and therefore could contain more, and more complex, code, since the size of those two dimensions isn't related whatsoever: you would even be able to fit an entire Mata Nui-robot filled with code inside a single mask. (not likely, but possible)

Methinks it's a bit much to go from "molecule" (confirmed) to perpetual pocket dimensional gates open in every molecule. :P

 

Protodermis obviously has the ability to make that power, but depending on it for its code is a whole 'nother matter. What if something interferes with dimensional gates? You could disable all protodermis with a simple interference field, and it would be irreparable too. I'd say it's too risky anyways, even if it were practical.

 

Our own cells have vast arrays of complexity. I don't see the need to invoke such a thing considering atoms are small enough to be combined in such complexity anyways. The reason I say it should be simpler rather than more complex is that makes the description of "molecule" a lot more believable.


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