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Toa of Shadow and Kanohi


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16 replies to this topic

#1 Offline Your Evil Friend

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 06:04 AM

Could a Toa where the "evil Kanohi" and would there be anyway to use the powers for good?

And also, were there ever any Toa of Shadow and does their element mean they have to be evil?


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#2 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 07:30 AM

Yes, Toa could wear the "immoral" Kanohi. However, their moral state would not affect the mask's power in any way - the only difference between "immoral" Kanohi and other masks is that most Toa consider them off-limits. Remember that Matoro's Tryna from 2007 was considered immoral, too, and he used it just fine.It is possible for there to be Toa of Shadow, and there are currently a couple of Shadow Takanuva (whom Makuta Tridax took from alternate dimensions and subjected to Shadow Leeches) running around Spherus Magna. Since the only way to make a Toa of Shadow is to drain their inner light, Toa of Shadow would be necessarily inclined to behave much like the corrupted Av-Matoran did in 2008 - just with full Elemental Power over Shadow instead of weak shadow blasts. If you want to see some Shadow Toa in action, look at Reign of Shadows on the BS01 Wiki - it features several Shadow Takanuva near its climax, who (we can assume) give a good example of most Shadow Toa's behavior.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Feb 26 2013 - 07:39 AM.

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#3 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 07:33 AM

For the first question, Toa could use an immoral mask for good. Most uses of the mask are evil and immoral, so they don't.

 

To have a Toa of Shadow, all of their inner light needs to be drained. This process makes them evil, so all are evil. If Kra-Toa occurred naturally, then there is a chance they would be good.


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#4 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 08:25 AM

wear*, by the way. yes, Toa could wear immoral masks, but they don't because sometimes they're associated with Makuta, like Chirox'smask (forgot the name). at other times, they consider the mask's use immoral, like Matoro's Tryna. Toa wouldn't normally use that because they don't like re-animating the dead and disturbing the deceased. as for the second, yes, there were shadow toa, and they COULD be good, but they would have to only be half-drained to obtain shadow powers (like takanuva). in theory, you could drain most of a being's light and replace it with shadow leaving a bit of inner light left, so in theory the being would be good and have shadow powers.


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#5 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 10:24 AM

Some powers would be less likely to be able to have a good application too, including the Tryna (under normal circumstances). And I would bet that most Toa would dispute the meaning of "good" since they have a sort of all-or-nothing view of those powers themselves as evil; the Crast for example is "repelling nature", an act which the Toa feel is wrong or at least always disturbing. And Matoro was disturbed by the use of his mask.

 

So in the sense of the "greater good", yes, they would use them, but they might see it as somewhat of an ends-justifies-the-means kind of thing and so they still greatly prefer to avoid it unless they have no other choice. Their mindset about it isn't much like ours; we would have an easier time with powers like the Crast in seeing the power as neutral and just a tool, I think. Perhaps a side effect of their type of origins, being intended as "nanotech" (metaphorically speaking).

 

 

The only way we know of that a Toa could wield elemental Shadow for "good" (as in greater good) would be if they wore a Mask of Shadows and used its elemental power, or carried a tool that had that power. If they themselves become Shadow Toa they are forced to be evil.

 

Edit: Except Takanuva's partially-drained Twilight power counts, of course. But that wasn't full Shadow power.


Edited by bonesiii, Feb 26 2013 - 10:25 AM.

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#6 Offline The Great Being Velika

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 12:50 PM

As others have explained, the morality of the person does not affect his or her ability to use a Kanohi. 

 

The problem with Shadow Toa and Kra-matoran is that they're in a sense forced "converts". None of them were originally of the shadow element. Thus not only are they physically transformed but also morally, and there's literally nothing they can do about it. Every choice they make is deceit, murder and other horrible things. Radiak is a perfect example of this.


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#7 Offline Chro

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 01:08 PM

When the shadow Matoran were "cured", I know they kept the same physical appearance, but did they also retain their shadow powers, rather than reverting to their original light ones? Same thing could happen to a Toa, if it was the former.
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#8 Offline The Great Being Velika

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 01:15 PM

When the shadow Matoran were "cured", I know they kept the same physical appearance, but did they also retain their shadow powers, rather than reverting to their original light ones? Same thing could happen to a Toa, if it was the former.

What? I'm pretty sure they reverted back to full Av-Matoran after they were cured. Granted it took awhile for the physical part to revert, but they all were fully cured.


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#9 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 02:31 PM

Generally, masks worn my Makuta are immoral masks, and therefore "corrupt" masks, I guess. 

And there are Shadow Toa, but they're all Takanuvas from alternate universes that have had the light sucked out of them by shadow leeches.


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#10 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 02:56 PM

1. It's hard to use an immoral mask to do good. I mean hunger, corruption, silence, and shadow (just to name a few) can do good as far as I can throw the Earth.2. No, but Takanuva was once half light and half shadow. Ahkmou was going to be one but Lego scrapped that idea. Takanuva wasn't evil, but when he was corrupted he had some un-Toalike personalities.
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#11 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 03:51 PM

Toa can indeed use immoral Kanohi, they just don't want to for the same reason why Batman doesn't use guns.

 

Shadow Toa, well, the only way to become a Shadow Toa is to have your light drained, which turns you evil in the process. But I don't consider Shadow to be inherently evil, only something that evil beings use that good beings don't. So if there was a hypothetical Kra-Matoran that was created as a Kra-Matoran in the same way as normal Matoran and that Kra-matoran became a Kra-Toa, he might be good. But I highly doubt that will happen.


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#12 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 04:03 PM

I think the only reason that shadow is evil is because the Makuta became evil. And when they turned evil, everything and anything shadow was too. Plus, they are the ones who drain light from beings, possibly making them evil in the process.


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#13 Offline Chro

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 04:27 PM

When the shadow Matoran were "cured", I know they kept the same physical appearance, but did they also retain their shadow powers, rather than reverting to their original light ones? Same thing could happen to a Toa, if it was the former.

What? I'm pretty sure they reverted back to full Av-Matoran after they were cured. Granted it took awhile for the physical part to revert, but they all were fully cured.
What, really? Huh, didn't know that. :/

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#14 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 05:23 PM

When the shadow Matoran were "cured", I know they kept the same physical appearance, but did they also retain their shadow powers, rather than reverting to their original light ones? Same thing could happen to a Toa, if it was the former.

What? I'm pretty sure they reverted back to full Av-Matoran after they were cured. Granted it took awhile for the physical part to revert, but they all were fully cured.

Canonically, the mutations were given to them by Mutran at some point after their light was drained - if I remember correctly. The mutations would thus not be reversed by the Klakk, but have no bearing on the topic of Shadow.

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#15 Offline Gravity

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 06:51 PM

I think it was the process of how Toa of Shadow are [normally] created that makes them evil, seeing as their moral light is drained by the shadow leech.  Now, going by this, if a Toa of Shadow was created by different means, say just replacing/reprogramming/whatever their normal elemental powers with Shadow, I'd think they'd be fine, as they'd still have their moral light intact.


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#16 Offline The Great Being Velika

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 08:07 PM

 

When the shadow Matoran were "cured", I know they kept the same physical appearance, but did they also retain their shadow powers, rather than reverting to their original light ones? Same thing could happen to a Toa, if it was the former.

What? I'm pretty sure they reverted back to full Av-Matoran after they were cured. Granted it took awhile for the physical part to revert, but they all were fully cured.

 

Canonically, the mutations were given to them by Mutran at some point after their light was drained - if I remember correctly. The mutations would thus not be reversed by the Klakk, but have no bearing on the topic of Shadow.

A quick look at BS01 reveals you are absolutely correct. Apologies to Chro. Anyway, back to the original question, no they would not retain their shadow powers as they were a part of the shadow leeche's affliction that was cured by the Klakk


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#17 Offline Chro

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Posted Feb 26 2013 - 09:13 PM

Oh, I see. My mistake. :lol:
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