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Matoran/Toa/Turaga Biological makeup?


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71 replies to this topic

#1 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 10:29 PM

I am just wondering, what are Matoran? are they completely robotic? or do they have organs internally, with a robotic exo-skeleton?

 

I am thinking the second, because when Tahu was stabbed by Zaktann, it is described that the protodites attacked his organs.

 

But the Matoran heroes were rebuilt after the bohrok saga, implying that they are completely robotic.

 

any help? 


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#2 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 10:31 PM

From what I know, they are bio-mechanical, which means that they are half organic half robotic. I know that they have tissue and muscles, and organs on the inside and robotic parts and armor on the outside.
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#3 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 10:33 PM

The rule is that Matoran are 85% mechanical, 15% organic. They seem to have organic muscles and lungs.
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#4 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 10:35 PM

I am under that impression as well. It would have been nice if a promo-art of an anatomy of a matoran or a toa were released.


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#5 Offline Black Six

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 10:51 PM

Since this is dealing with the storyline and Bionicle canon, I'm moving it to S&T...
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#6 Offline LordofBionicles

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 11:00 PM

So far we´ve only seen them having lungs but it is possible they have other organs as well. 


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#7 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted Mar 03 2013 - 11:43 PM

I believe they do have organs, but their different from ours. they don't have a heart, but they do have a heart light, for example. 


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#8 Online Gravity

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 01:50 AM

As said above, it's been confirmed that Matoran (and I suppose other MU species) are 85% mechanical and 15% organic.  Now, I always thought that 15% was completely made up of their muscles and lungs.  What else is organic seems to be up in the air at this point, though.  I suppose any other organ necessary to keep their muscle mass alive could also be included.


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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 12:37 PM

The "big" question is what their brain is made of. Is it organic like ours (and more importantly like Agori's)? If so, that easily explains why they became fully sapient, but not so easily why the Great Beings didn't realize they would (unless it was just "maker's humility" in not daring to imagine that they might accomplish such a thing). If not, then we still must wonder exactly what it's made of and how it works essentially the same as an organic brain.

 

Of course, it's protodermis, not normal matter cells, so there's that obvious difference either way. The distinction might not matter as much with something as simple as a muscle, but with a brain, a neuron cell already acts a lot like the normal function of the advanced protodermis molecule. So either way, each brain particle is a protodermis molecule that imitates a neuron in some way, so maybe it's a bit of a moot point?

 

Personally I do lean towards their brains being considered alive in the organic sense just as with the muscles, but perhaps the molecular (rather than technically cellular) design might be enough of a difference to explain why the GBs didn't imagine it would achieve full freewilled sapience.

 

 

BTW, it's also possible there are a few other biological organs involved in basic functions, perhaps somehow included in the "eating" power. We do know that their arms and legs can disconnect and they can survive, but their heads cannot be disconnected from their bodies apparently, and we know they can drink water like we do.

 

I kinda forget if they can eat like we do and just normally don't (if anyone recalls, would love to know because the question has come up for a fanfic I'm writing :P).

 

But my point is, there could be something similar to a stomach, if only for the ingestion of water. And perhaps some other things like a liver? Although there can't be much or it would go over the 15% rule.


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#10 Offline VeoiTheRascal

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 01:06 PM

Yes, Matoran, Toa and Turaga can eat, they just consider it a disgusting thing to do.


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#11 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 01:32 PM

I believe that instead of eating, they absorb the energy from their "food". might be a good question to ask GregF if the chance comes up


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#12 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 02:21 PM

Yes, Matoran, Toa and Turaga can eat, they just consider it a disgusting thing to do.

I thought so, but wasn't sure. Thanks. :)


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#13 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 02:31 PM

These might help you with anatomy structure

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Anatomy_1.png

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Anatomy_2.png

 

I don't know how canon these pics are, though.


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#14 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 03:16 PM

I don't think they need a digestive system, because they absorb the energy from fruits and "charging stations", according to BS01.
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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 03:45 PM

I don't think they need a digestive system, because they absorb the energy from fruits and "charging stations", according to BS01.

But Veoi said that they can eat like us but just prefer to use the absorption power. Assuming he's right (and I'm sure now I recall it being stated at some point), then they may have something organic that can do it. Keep in mind they also drink water like us all the time, so it could be a small stomach that normally only digests water.

 

I'd also presume that there's no waste system at all; that all the water is used in muscles and the like and is only slowly lost by normal osmosis from the flesh of the muscles, and all of the rest is converted to energy to power the "heart" system.

 

Doesn't prove they have an organic digestion system though; they might just be able to "absorb" it all totally into energy shortly after swallowing.


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#16 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 05:24 PM

Well, we do have proof of them eating/drinking because in Bionicle Adventures #5 Nokama drank from the water around Mata Nui, after the Toa Metru discovered it. What we don't know is how. It doesn't seem like they take off their masks before, but does the food/drink pass through their masks, or what?
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#17 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 06:45 PM

Well, we do have proof of them eating/drinking because in Bionicle Adventures #5 Nokama drank from the water around Mata Nui, after the Toa Metru discovered it. What we don't know is how. It doesn't seem like they take off their masks before, but does the food/drink pass through their masks, or what?

Most masks seem to have mouth holes. ***For the brains, I lean toward a hard drive type system for memory storage at least, considering how easily MUians can be wiped of their memories. It's possible that they have organic components that interface with that, or maybe a combination of organic and mechanical. If the latter, that might explain the GB's confusion - they might have underestimated the amount of organic components needed for full sapience. :shrugs:

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#18 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 07:37 PM

Well, we do have proof of them eating/drinking because in Bionicle Adventures #5 Nokama drank from the water around Mata Nui, after the Toa Metru discovered it. What we don't know is how. It doesn't seem like they take off their masks before, but does the food/drink pass through their masks, or what?

Most masks seem to have mouth holes.***For the brains, I lean toward a hard drive type system for memory storage at least, considering how easily MUians can be wiped of their memories. It's possible that they have organic components that interface with that, or maybe a combination of organic and mechanical. If the latter, that might explain the GB's confusion - they might have underestimated the amount of organic components needed for full sapience. :shrugs:

Given that this is a world with protodermic powers, that doesn't necessarily imply any particular design for how the wiped memories were stored. For any method of storage there could be a protodermic power designed to erase that type of storage. Our organic brains could theoretically have memories wiped as well, it's just that there's no mechanism to do it so efficiently in our world (as far as I recall, lol irony!).

 

In fact I'd prefer the organic theory there too because some things that are their strongest memories in terms of neurology, especially language, are usually not wiped. Amnesia is often like that (although that's not a wipe but a block, as far as I know). That's because the neuron connections we use the most grow the strongest, just like muscular exercise and the like, and language is used more than virtually anything else, so even a strong emotional memory can be lost while language connections are retained. If it was a single hard drive type memory storage that would be rather odd (though possible by partitioning or even multiple drives).

 

I'm still a little unclear as to how our brains store information, been trying to find answers to that recently by coincidence, but it seems it's literally the physical arrangements of the connections between neurons that equals the storage.

 

So amnesia is just (as far as I know, again) the breaking of looser connections between a region of stronger connections, which in turn store memories. The basic reason getting hit on your head can't wipe your memories is because the connections inside that region are too strong; if you were hit hard enough to break those, you'd be dead just from the impact itself. But if something, such as a genetically engineered virus, were to destroy all those connections without killing you, you could apparently be mindwiped (maybe that's what some memory diseases do, I don't know, haven't been curious enough to read that deeply about it yet lol).

 

Also, hard drive storage is famous for not really being permanent, as seen on TV shows like NCIS and the like.

 

 

Re: mouth holes -- Noble Huna is one that doesn't seem to be good for drinking (movie form), but other movie form masks are clearly given a mouth that would work just like ours even when in set form it's not that obvious, yeah. Not really sure how the Huna type masks are explained. I doubt they take their masks off to drink; that's dangerous. Perhaps they simply use a straw. :P


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 04 2013 - 07:43 PM.

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#19 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 08:52 PM

Given that this is a world with protodermic powers, that doesn't necessarily imply any particular design for how the wiped memories were stored. For any method of storage there could be a protodermic power designed to erase that type of storage.

Agreed.

Our organic brains could theoretically have memories wiped as well, it's just that there's no mechanism to do it so efficiently in our world (as far as I recall, lol irony!).

I've seen some accounts of drugs being used to block memories, but it seems (to me, anyway)to be the only way to actually erase them is to destroy the portion of the brain that remembers things (like Alzhimier's disease). However, that would not only erase the memories, but remove the capacity for new memories to be recorded, which obviously isn't true of the MUians.

 In fact I'd prefer the organic theory there too because some things that are their strongest memories in terms of neurology, especially language, are usually not wiped. Amnesia is often like that (although that's not a wipe but a block, as far as I know). That's because the neuron connections we use the most grow the strongest, just like muscular exercise and the like, and language is used more than virtually anything else, so even a strong emotional memory can be lost while language connections are retained. If it was a single hard drive type memory storage that would be rather odd (though possible by partitioning or even multiple drives).

I could argue that the GBs made partions in the "memory drive" to separate vital memories (like langauge, which was programmed in) from stuff that could be erased if needed (another convenient failsafe). However, I recall that the Toa Mata exprienced amnesia (blocked memories that they were able to fully recall later, which is hard to explain by hard drive damage). As such, I'm now inclined to agree that MU inhabitants have at least some organic components in their memories.

I'm still a little unclear as to how our brains store information, been trying to find answers to that recently by coincidence, but it seems it's literally the physical arrangements of the connections between neurons that equals the storage. So amnesia is just (as far as I know, again) the breaking of looser connections between a region of stronger connections, which in turn store memories. The basic reason getting hit on your head can't wipe your memories is because the connections inside that region are too strong; if you were hit hard enough to break those, you'd be dead just from the impact itself. But if something, such as a genetically engineered virus, were to destroy all those connections without killing you, you could apparently be mindwiped (maybe that's what some memory diseases do, I don't know, haven't been curious enough to read that deeply about it yet lol).

Unfortunately, your guess is as good as mine. Except that I'm pretty sure that memory diseases destroy the portion of the brain regardling memory, as I said above, not just disconnect it. (That portion of the brain would be the hippocampus in humans.) 

Also, hard drive storage is famous for not really being permanent, as seen on TV shows like NCIS and the like.

Agreed. That is why I was thinking that it would be easy to erase. Although perhaps it might be too easy to erase. :shrugs:

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#20 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 10:04 PM

, people know so much!

 

Someone said they consider it disgusting to eat? I remember Onua and Whenua sharing a meal underground one time. 

 

Anyways, I kinda lean towards them also having stomachs, bc Tahu was stabbed in the abdomen by Zaktann, and it was said it struck an organ. Most likely that would be a stomach, but, then again, they aren't us.


Edited by slifer3000, Mar 04 2013 - 10:08 PM.

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#21 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 10:08 PM

, people know so much! Someone said they consider it disgusting to eat? I remember Onua and Whenua sharing a meal underground one time. 

Where'd you here that?


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 05 2013 - 02:37 AM.
Removing a filtered effect from quote of above post. -bones

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#22 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 10:17 PM

Tales of the Masks.

Chronicles 4 


Edited by slifer3000, Mar 04 2013 - 10:17 PM.

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#23 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 04 2013 - 11:48 PM

Oh. That is the one Bionicle book that I never read. Just that one, I've literally read all the other ones. Just one book, and I'm missing out on key information.
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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 02:41 AM

Someone said they consider it disgusting to eat? I remember Onua and Whenua sharing a meal underground one time. 

 

Anyways, I kinda lean towards them also having stomachs, bc Tahu was stabbed in the abdomen by Zaktann, and it was said it struck an organ. Most likely that would be a stomach, but, then again, they aren't us.

Good point about that organ reference.

 

What we were talking about was they consider it disgusting to eat like we do; to put food in their mouth, chew, and swallow. They don't consider it disgusting to eat like they do; absorbing the energy through their hands. As far as I recall, "sharing a meal" means that one of them had food and split it between the two of them and they both absorbed its energy, ergo, were not disgusted.


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#25 Offline Krane

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 03:01 AM

These might help you with anatomy structure

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Anatomy_1.png

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Anatomy_2.png

 

I don't know how canon these pics are, though.

 

Does this mean their feet are actually part of their skeleton?


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#26 Offline NuvaTube

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 01:11 PM

(warning I'm new here, but I'm a long time Bio-fan)

 

T[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]his is a pretty interesting subject, one that I have found really interesting for a very long time.[/font]

 

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]In summary, Bionicles, specifically those from the Matoran Universe, are biomechanical, part machine, part organic. The ratio for Matoran and most other inhabitants of the MU (Matoran Universe) is about 85% mechanical, 15% organic, so kinda like robots with organic implants.[/font]

 

[font="arial, helvetica, sans-serif;"]As for organs, we KNOW they have lungs (the name "lungs" strongly suggests organic or mostly organic), and that they need to breath air which judging by the flora and colours of Spherus Magna and the MU is probably similar to an Earth Atmosphere ([color=rgb(0,0,0);]78.09% n[/color]itrogen[color=rgb(0,0,0);], 20.95% ox[/color]ygen[color=rgb(0,0,0);], 0.93% argo[/color]n[color=rgb(0,0,0);], 0.039% carbon dioxide[/color][color=rgb(0,0,0);], and small amounts of other gases) but the exact composition could vary.[/color][/font]

 

But some organs are mechanical, like their glowing eyes, and audio receptors (sometimes called ears for shorthand).

 

The rest, we can only speculate at.


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#27 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 03:07 PM

That just sums up everything we said in one post. But how do you know that the audio receptors are organic? They could just be very similar to microphones. Like, the ones in computers that turns the sound and record it or something.

Edited by Takua the Chronicler7, Mar 05 2013 - 03:08 PM.

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#28 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 03:28 PM

That just sums up everything we said in one post. But how do you know that the audio receptors are organic? They could just be very similar to microphones. Like, the ones in computers that turns the sound and record it or something.

He said mechanical, not organic. :P

 

 

 

Just for the record, Greg did confirm the lungs are organic, so it's not just an extrapolation. And the muscles.

 

And now for a nitpick: "Bionicles" is not a canon term, as "Bionicle" means "biological chronicle" and refers to historical records, tales, and the franchise of Bionicle as a whole, not the characters in it. So "Bionicles" would mean "chronicles". Nothing wrong with using a fan-made term but we've had arguments started in the past over this and just making sure there's no misconception, since you said you were new. ^_^


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#29 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 03:38 PM

Oops, I somehow read it as organic.
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#30 Offline TNT-Vezon with an Olmak

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 04:22 PM

These might help you with anatomy structure

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Anatomy_1.png

 

http://biosector01.c...a_Anatomy_2.png

 

I don't know how canon these pics are, though.

 

Does this mean their feet are actually part of their skeleton?

That's what it looks like, but again; I'm not sure how canon it is.


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#31 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 04:26 PM

Maybe it represents the skeletal parts in the feet? Anyway, it can't be 100% canon because the pics are labeled "MoL Concept Art".
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#32 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 04:49 PM

It would hurt beyond belief to a human to literally walk on straight bone. Just tapping a bare bone is a horrible pain. 

So feet being bones kinda sounds irrational. Then again, they aren't human.

 

So about their biological makeup, how are Matoran made? or is the supply limited to however many the great beings made? 


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#33 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 05:13 PM

They are pretty much the same as Toa, just smaller.
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#34 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 05:14 PM

It would hurt beyond belief to a human to literally walk on straight bone. Just tapping a bare bone is a horrible pain. So feet being bones kinda sounds irrational. Then again, they aren't human. So about their biological makeup, how are Matoran made? or is the supply limited to however many the great beings made? 

Mata Nui can make one too, we don't know how, we just know he can but needs resources.

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#35 Offline VeoiTheRascal

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 07:29 PM

Just to give more info on amnesia to bonesii and fisher64, you do not have to have physical damage to your brain to have loss of memory. Amnesia can also be caused by traumatic events where your mind won't retain memories of that moment because of high levels of stress, and mind altering substances ( alcohol and other drugs) where they mess with the process to embed memories for long term. Both can cause temporary memory loss as well as permanent/ partial memory loss, though mind altering substances usually sticks to temporary.I think it'd be interesting if there were mechanical components to an MU inhabitant's brain and have a particular component that's like a control system that could over ride the individual's mind to a certain extent. It would certainly make it easier to erase memories on populations like in the Time Slip.As to the 'are they walking on bone???' thing, my headcanon is that MU inhabatants have an exoskeleton like arthropods that incases the individual's internal workings from the external environment. It made the most sense to me, anyway.VeOi ThE rAsCaL

Edited by VeoiTheRascal, Mar 05 2013 - 07:49 PM.

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#36 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 09:08 PM

It would hurt beyond belief to a human to literally walk on straight bone. Just tapping a bare bone is a horrible pain. 

So feet being bones kinda sounds irrational. Then again, they aren't human.

 

So about their biological makeup, how are Matoran made? or is the supply limited to however many the great beings made? 

Their "bones" are just metal, though. Not even "metallic organic" like Agori bones. It's just like a metal rod, built, not grown. No pain.

 

New Matoran are made in machines, but there's a story rule that we will not be told how these machines work, to preserve some mystery. What we know is that it doesn't work biologically, and they are built somehow.

 

I have a theory I'm using for a canon-fit story I'm writing now that retells the entire Bionicle history chronologically. Watch my sig for the link in coming months, assuming the writing keeps going so smoothly. :)

 

 

Thanks, Veoi.

 

As to the 'are they walking on bone???' thing, my headcanon is that MU inhabatants have an exoskeleton like arthropods that incases the individual's internal workings from the external environment. It made the most sense to me, anyway.

Yes, they have a more or less complete external metal armor that you could call an "exoskeleton" (though canonically it's just called armor), and an internal metal "skeleton" as well.

 

To fulfill the 85% rule, basically you have to be walking on metal that's solidly connected to the "skeleton", leaving just the muscles to be biological as well as maybe a bit else. So essentially, yes, they walk on "bone" (in terms of metaphor of what anotomical part those metal parts represent), but there's no pain involved.

 

And incidentally, if biological bone had the right design walking on it wouldn't be painful really either. We're not designed that way because we don't walk on bone, so it's kind of circular reasoning to use our design to argue that walking on bone is inherently painful. :P


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#37 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 10:42 PM

^ DARN YOU AND YOUR TECHNICAL-NESS!!!

 

I guess your right.

As for machines making them, Idk if they can 'manufacture' organs. But then again, the Makuta go willy-nilly making Muakas with organs.


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#38 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 10:45 PM

Well, they might grow the organs, so dunno if you wanna call that "manufacture." I'll stay silent on it as far as my theory goes 'cuz I wanna save it for that story, heh.

 

A theory someone else had on the past about it is that they manufacture the metal parts, assemble them, and then grow the organic parts into them. There's some evidence for this; Greg confirmed that if they lose a limb they can build a new one, and new muscle tissue will grow to connect to it.


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#39 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 10:49 PM

That last piece of info intrigues me. That explains how Lewa's whole arm came off in a canister.


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#40 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 05 2013 - 10:58 PM

Yeah. In Lewa's(and the rest of the Toa Mata's) case, their joint tissue hadn't been used for 100,000 years (the time in the canisters in Karda Nui and Aqua Magna) so they began to decay and detach, then as bonesiii said, grow new ones later. For Lewa, though, it was both legs and one arm, according to Legends #1 Island of Doom.

Edited by Takua the Chronicler7, Mar 05 2013 - 10:59 PM.

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