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Toa "Ancestry"


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#1 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Mar 16 2013 - 05:37 PM

Once a Toa puts their energy into a Toa stone, does that weaken them at all, or mean they must become a Turaga?

 

Following from that, are all Toa, excluding the Mata, descended from Helryx, or are there more Toa who were always Toa, or were there Matoran who became Toa without the energies of another Toa (Excluding Takua, who's pretty unique)?


Edited by Taipu1, Mar 16 2013 - 05:37 PM.

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#2 Offline Aiwendil

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Posted Mar 16 2013 - 05:40 PM

on the first question, a Toa's energy is linked to themselves, so if one put his or her energy into a stone, in would not affect the others. the Toa Metru did it together to awaken all of the matoran tribes, as one Toa's energy was not enough. on the second question...I know there were some Toa who were Toa from their beginnings, so they could have also contributed Toa Energy. that is an interesting theory though.


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#3 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 16 2013 - 05:46 PM

1. To become a Turaga you have to use up all your Toa energy, so unless you invest all you energy or you have little energy left and you put it in the stone, you won't become a Turaga.2. I'm not sure but I know that some Toa(other than Helryx and the Mata) were always Toa, like Orde. And the Inika didn't use Toa Stones, they were pretty unique as well. Like, lightning from the Red Star, so it is possible.
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#4 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 16 2013 - 05:52 PM

There were 8 known Toa already born as Toa. The Mata Helryx and OrdeBut a Toa can turn Toa on different ways, and so there are different ways to invest Toa energy.The energy of the star, possibly Mata Nui, the Ignika, Toa energy, possibly EP, the Avohkii all are known to be able to turn Matoran into Toa
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#5 Offline Chro

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Posted Mar 16 2013 - 07:55 PM

Weren't Lesovikk and his team created as Toa? Or am I just forgetting something important?


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#6 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 16 2013 - 09:15 PM

No, according to BS01 Lesovikk was a Le-Matoran prior to becoming a Toa.
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#7 Offline fishers64

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Posted Mar 17 2013 - 01:00 AM

Toa have to complete their destiny before becoming Turaga. I think that it's possible that Toa can give away only a portion of their Toa energy in a stone and still remain a Toa, and the recipient can become a Toa without the giving Toa becoming a Turaga. Lhikan is the example that comes to mind, and the Metru that followed him. So in the beginning, it could have been possible that the First Toa Team was turned by Helryx or some other Toa, and the spreading of energy to destined Matoran increased the numbers of Toa as needed. That's my theory. 


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#8 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 17 2013 - 01:50 AM

Not entirely sure I understood your first question, it sounds like two questions, so I'll try to answer "all three" if I'm understanding you right. Please note, there is still much that's unclear so I'll try to cover all the possibilities.

 

1)I'll use some basic algebra for this one. Each Toa has 100% Toa Energy normally. Having this infused in your body is what makes you a Toa. Yet, each single Toa can make six new Toa. Thus, that energy has to be somehow multiplied at some point during the process. So the maximum potential Toa Energy from each Toa is 600% at minimum.

 

And it's vital to note that making six Toa Stones doesn't immediately turn you into a Turaga. That only happens if you use the rest of your Toa Energy for something else, or if six Matoran use those Stones. In the latter case, the rest of your energy seems to "teleport" to them. However, the one time we saw this done, a Suva (a teleportation shrine) was clearly involved. It's possible there are multiple ways to do it -- maybe you CAN put the full amount in the Stones and become a Turaga instantly, or choose not to, in which case a Suva might be necessary.

 

Either way, the total amount of Toa Energy multiplies by at least six (plus apparently a tiny remainder in the Turaga).

Now, a Toa Stone is an object infused with Toa Energy. So to do this, they must take out some unknown percentage -- X% -- for each Stone. They can do this six times, so they drain 6X%. At that moment, they may be left with "100% - 6X% = R".

 

What happens next is unclear -- there's all kinds of possibilities. X (the amount put in a Toa Stone) might be almost one-sixth of 100%, or far less (or both may be options). The Toa might be stuck with whatever that momentary remainder is, or the remainder may multiply to bring the Toa back up to full until the Stones are used, etc.

 

I think it's most likely that at least a few minutes later, the Toa will have 100% Toa Energy. Lhikan remained a Toa and had full control. I don't think there's such a thing as "half a Toa". The key here is that even though they must subtract some energy, this energy also absolutely must multiply anyways, so it's quite plausible that it begins multiplying as soon as the process starts rather than at the end, so the original Toa will remain at 100% until the moment they become a Turaga.

 

So I'd say no, it doesn't weaken them, but that's just my theory.

 

2) (Re: "must they become Turaga") No. If nobody ever uses the Toa Stones, and they never use the energy for something else (like the Toa Metru did), they'll remain Toa forever.

 

3) Let's keep in mind that Toa would be immediately needed throughout the Matoran Universe (since the Matoran population was rapidly brought up to full, to help construct the interior of the robot), and it would be inefficient to rapidly spread a whole population by Toa-izing someone only to have them turn to six of their neighbors and immediately Toa-ize them. That just wouldn't make sense. The exact math of this is hard to pin down, but there are two key theories that seem most reasonable to me:

 

First, that there is probably a Spawner machine (as I call them) that makes Toa, the way there are multiple ones that make Matoran. This is probably located on the island of Artakha, made either by the Great Beings or him, right away. So this could be used however often is necessary immediately to spread Toa around.

 

Second, that the GBs and/or Artakha probably made devices like the Toa-izer beam on the Red Star down in the MU also, so it's quite possible that some Matoran could have been immediately Toa-ized elsewhere, without even needing to make a Toa in Artakha and travel all that distance to where they were needed. However, then we must wonder what happened to these devices if this is the case and why we've never heard of them. I suspect that if they made any, they probably made only one or two and put them at the Southern Continent and/or the other arm that doesn't have Artakha in it. Then later the Order or someone else could have hidden them.

 

One or both of these could be the case.

 

Also note, it's highly unlikely that anybody is descended from any of the eight Toa who are confirmed to have been made as Toa, since all eight are still Toa. It's possible if less than six were made from them, but that would seem unwise IMO.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 17 2013 - 02:10 AM.

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#9 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Mar 17 2013 - 10:34 AM

Not entirely sure I understood your first question, it sounds like two questions, so I'll try to answer "all three" if I'm understanding you right. Please note, there is still much that's unclear so I'll try to cover all the possibilities.

 

1)I'll use some basic algebra for this one. Each Toa has 100% Toa Energy normally. Having this infused in your body is what makes you a Toa. Yet, each single Toa can make six new Toa. Thus, that energy has to be somehow multiplied at some point during the process. So the maximum potential Toa Energy from each Toa is 600% at minimum.

 

And it's vital to note that making six Toa Stones doesn't immediately turn you into a Turaga. That only happens if you use the rest of your Toa Energy for something else, or if six Matoran use those Stones. In the latter case, the rest of your energy seems to "teleport" to them. However, the one time we saw this done, a Suva (a teleportation shrine) was clearly involved. It's possible there are multiple ways to do it -- maybe you CAN put the full amount in the Stones and become a Turaga instantly, or choose not to, in which case a Suva might be necessary.

 

Either way, the total amount of Toa Energy multiplies by at least six (plus apparently a tiny remainder in the Turaga).

Now, a Toa Stone is an object infused with Toa Energy. So to do this, they must take out some unknown percentage -- X% -- for each Stone. They can do this six times, so they drain 6X%. At that moment, they may be left with "100% - 6X% = R".

 

What happens next is unclear -- there's all kinds of possibilities. X (the amount put in a Toa Stone) might be almost one-sixth of 100%, or far less (or both may be options). The Toa might be stuck with whatever that momentary remainder is, or the remainder may multiply to bring the Toa back up to full until the Stones are used, etc.

 

I think it's most likely that at least a few minutes later, the Toa will have 100% Toa Energy. Lhikan remained a Toa and had full control. I don't think there's such a thing as "half a Toa". The key here is that even though they must subtract some energy, this energy also absolutely must multiply anyways, so it's quite plausible that it begins multiplying as soon as the process starts rather than at the end, so the original Toa will remain at 100% until the moment they become a Turaga.

 

So I'd say no, it doesn't weaken them, but that's just my theory.

 

2) (Re: "must they become Turaga") No. If nobody ever uses the Toa Stones, and they never use the energy for something else (like the Toa Metru did), they'll remain Toa forever.

 

3) Let's keep in mind that Toa would be immediately needed throughout the Matoran Universe (since the Matoran population was rapidly brought up to full, to help construct the interior of the robot), and it would be inefficient to rapidly spread a whole population by Toa-izing someone only to have them turn to six of their neighbors and immediately Toa-ize them. That just wouldn't make sense. The exact math of this is hard to pin down, but there are two key theories that seem most reasonable to me:

 

First, that there is probably a Spawner machine (as I call them) that makes Toa, the way there are multiple ones that make Matoran. This is probably located on the island of Artakha, made either by the Great Beings or him, right away. So this could be used however often is necessary immediately to spread Toa around.

 

Second, that the GBs and/or Artakha probably made devices like the Toa-izer beam on the Red Star down in the MU also, so it's quite possible that some Matoran could have been immediately Toa-ized elsewhere, without even needing to make a Toa in Artakha and travel all that distance to where they were needed. However, then we must wonder what happened to these devices if this is the case and why we've never heard of them. I suspect that if they made any, they probably made only one or two and put them at the Southern Continent and/or the other arm that doesn't have Artakha in it. Then later the Order or someone else could have hidden them.

 

One or both of these could be the case.

 

Also note, it's highly unlikely that anybody is descended from any of the eight Toa who are confirmed to have been made as Toa, since all eight are still Toa. It's possible if less than six were made from them, but that would seem unwise IMO.

 

 

I like this theory, but didn't GregF once say that Toa Energy and Elemental Energy are different?  Meaning, over time, a Toa can improve their control over Elemental Energy allowing them to use less and less for the big, speeding up the recharge time, but Toa Energy doesn't have a recharge.  Once it's used, it gone and won't come back.  Toa Energy makes the Toa, but Elemental Energy is the thing that gives them power.

 

Anyways, we only have the story of Lhikan change 6 Matoran into Toa and the Toa Metru creating six stones as a back up to protect the Matoran on Mata Nui.  So who really knows how much Toa Energy a Toa has until it is used up.


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#10 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 17 2013 - 12:22 PM

I like this theory, but didn't GregF once say that Toa Energy and Elemental Energy are different?  Meaning, over time, a Toa can improve their control over Elemental Energy allowing them to use less and less for the big, speeding up the recharge time, but Toa Energy doesn't have a recharge.  Once it's used, it gone and won't come back.  Toa Energy makes the Toa, but Elemental Energy is the thing that gives them power.

Yes, they are different. I wasn't talking about elemental energy at all in that post. Toa Energy could have a limited "recharge" because it's canon that it does multiply up to just over 600% total in the process of becoming a Turaga (100% for each Toa they make, or 600% for whatever else they use it for, plus some tiny percent left over for the Turaga to have a tiny elemental power). So the "once it's gone", if I'm right, would refer to the 600% potential, not to the original 100%.

 

Also, it's only my theory that Toa Energy can multiply while still in the Toa like that. It's possible I'm wrong and the multiplication only happens once it leaves the Toa. In which case you might have weaker Toa until the Toa Stones are used.

 

Either way, elemental energy can always recharge, but Toa Energy can only multiply times six plus a little. I don't know if I'd use the word "recharge", in fact. It's more like the energy they have grows in amount, kinda like a germ multiplying into many germs, rather than a supply of new germs coming in, if that analogy helps. But Elemental Energy can go down to zero and still recharge.


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#11 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Mar 17 2013 - 12:37 PM

I like this theory, but didn't GregF once say that Toa Energy and Elemental Energy are different?  Meaning, over time, a Toa can improve their control over Elemental Energy allowing them to use less and less for the big, speeding up the recharge time, but Toa Energy doesn't have a recharge.  Once it's used, it gone and won't come back.  Toa Energy makes the Toa, but Elemental Energy is the thing that gives them power.

Yes, they are different. I wasn't talking about elemental energy at all in that post. Toa Energy could have a limited "recharge" because it's canon that it does multiply up to just over 600% total in the process of becoming a Turaga (100% for each Toa they make, or 600% for whatever else they use it for, plus some tiny percent left over for the Turaga to have a tiny elemental power). So the "once it's gone", if I'm right, would refer to the 600% potential, not to the original 100%.

 

Also, it's only my theory that Toa Energy can multiply while still in the Toa like that. It's possible I'm wrong and the multiplication only happens once it leaves the Toa. In which case you might have weaker Toa until the Toa Stones are used.

 

Either way, elemental energy can always recharge, but Toa Energy can only multiply times six plus a little. I don't know if I'd use the word "recharge", in fact. It's more like the energy they have grows in amount, kinda like a germ multiplying into many germs, rather than a supply of new germs coming in, if that analogy helps. But Elemental Energy can go down to zero and still recharge.

 

A better solution would hower be that when A certain type of energy(Toa Enery, Star Energy, Avohkii Energy) can provide a trigger when it comes in contact with another source of Toa energy, namely the little amouth inside a Matoran. This trigger causes the Energy to multiply. So like only 1/6 of a Toa's Energy is needed to provide a New Toa. Also I see Toa Stones rather as a energy Suva, while the stone is not used the Toa can still use the energy inside.


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#12 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 17 2013 - 03:42 PM

I like this theory, but didn't GregF once say that Toa Energy and Elemental Energy are different?  Meaning, over time, a Toa can improve their control over Elemental Energy allowing them to use less and less for the big, speeding up the recharge time, but Toa Energy doesn't have a recharge.  Once it's used, it gone and won't come back.  Toa Energy makes the Toa, but Elemental Energy is the thing that gives them power.

Yes, they are different. I wasn't talking about elemental energy at all in that post. Toa Energy could have a limited "recharge" because it's canon that it does multiply up to just over 600% total in the process of becoming a Turaga (100% for each Toa they make, or 600% for whatever else they use it for, plus some tiny percent left over for the Turaga to have a tiny elemental power). So the "once it's gone", if I'm right, would refer to the 600% potential, not to the original 100%. Also, it's only my theory that Toa Energy can multiply while still in the Toa like that. It's possible I'm wrong and the multiplication only happens once it leaves the Toa. In which case you might have weaker Toa until the Toa Stones are used. Either way, elemental energy can always recharge, but Toa Energy can only multiply times six plus a little. I don't know if I'd use the word "recharge", in fact. It's more like the energy they have grows in amount, kinda like a germ multiplying into many germs, rather than a supply of new germs coming in, if that analogy helps. But Elemental Energy can go down to zero and still recharge.
 A better solution would hower be that when A certain type of energy(Toa Enery, Star Energy, Avohkii Energy) can provide a trigger when it comes in contact with another source of Toa energy, namely the little amouth inside a Matoran. This trigger causes the Energy to multiply. So like only 1/6 of a Toa's Energy is needed to provide a New Toa. Also I see Toa Stones rather as a energy Suva, while the stone is not used the Toa can still use the energy inside.
Yeah, something like that. I read on BS01 or something that certain Matoran are destinied to become Toa, so they have more energy in them. The energy "amplifies" when in contact with a Toa "power source"(like a Toa Stone), and turns the Matoran into Toa, I think.

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#13 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 09:37 PM

Related to the amplification thing: isn't it confirmed that destinied Matoran have some Toa Energy to begin with? This would remove the need for the multiplier clause you're proposing - I've always thought that a spark of "active" Toa Energy from a transformed Toa can activate a destinied Matoran's "inactive" Toa Energy and transform them.
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#14 Offline Gengar

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 09:40 PM

Yeah that was what I was referring to.
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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 09:49 PM

Related to the amplification thing: isn't it confirmed that destinied Matoran have some Toa Energy to begin with? This would remove the need for the multiplier clause you're proposing - I've always thought that a spark of "active" Toa Energy from a transformed Toa can activate a destinied Matoran's "inactive" Toa Energy and transform them.

So how would you say the math works under your thinking? Wouldn't it still involve multiplication?

 

Yes, it's confirmed they have some amount in them. I'm under the impression (but could be wrong) that it's incredibly tiny, not enough to make a dent in my percentage math, unless you wanna get into decimals. Turaga also retain a small amount, but theirs enables them to still use some elemental power, while destined Matoran cannot. And we still have to explain how the 100% of one Toa becomes 600% total in the six Toa he can transform.

 

It sounds like you would say that there's a way to make Toa Energy inactive, and the percentages would involve the two types, but this seems less consistent with various facts mentioned before, like that a Toa will be drained of TE when he becomes a Turaga, or that Turaga retain a tiny percentage, implying the "small amount" in destined Matoran is even tinier. It seems clear that if a being has a high enough percent of TE, they can use elemental power, so it's only inactive if it's simply too tiny an amount to be of any use for that.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2013 - 09:50 PM.

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#16 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 12:23 AM

I always thought, and from what I have read on BS01, that Elemental Energy was separate from Toa Energy, because all Matoran have a power manifestation, so TE can't, in my opinion, activate EE.  Then again, I can be wrong.


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#17 Offline Click

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 12:30 AM

So, going back a ways, just out of curiousity, would it be possible for a Toa to create more that six Toa Stones if each one uses less power to create than to change a Matoran into a Toa? If so, what would happen to his energy if they all began to change?


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#18 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 01:39 AM

I always thought, and from what I have read on BS01, that Elemental Energy was separate from Toa Energy, because all Matoran have a power manifestation, so TE can't, in my opinion, activate EE.  Then again, I can be wrong.

Not sure what you mean by TE not activating EE. You're correct; they are different kinds of energy. EE is what is spent whenever they use their element. TE simply needs to be possessed in order to use their element; it isn't spent in normal usage. And once TE is gone it can't come back, but EE can always recharge as long as they're still a Toa. However, TE being there is what activates their ability to use EE, at least in a manner of speaking.

 

So, going back a ways, just out of curiousity, would it be possible for a Toa to create more that six Toa Stones if each one uses less power to create than to change a Matoran into a Toa? If so, what would happen to his energy if they all began to change?

I think it would work something like the Toa Stones the Toa Metru hid on Mata Nui. They couldn't turn Takua into a Toa because the Metru had already spent the rest on awakening the Matoran. So you should be able to make more than six (unless there's a special rule added that simply prevents it), but only six could work. If they all tried at once, either they'd all fail, or six would randomly be chosen, methinks.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2013 - 01:40 AM.

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#19 Offline Euphrates

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 05:46 PM

Re: Number of Toa that can be created at once and how this is possible

 

I think the main thing that needs to be looked at is Destiny. It's kind of a fleeting and abstract concept, but the only clear-cut explanation we have for, for instance, Matoran who can transform into Toa is "the Matoran who are destined." The only example (as far as I know) of a Toa "Ancestor" is Lhikan -- he distributed his energy to six Matoran and transformed them into Toa of equal power, not 1/6 his power. Like bones explained, it's not too implausible to jump to the conclusion that this is just how it works: one sixth of the 100% energy gets restored to the full 100% post-transformation. But that brings up the difficult questions of "why can't a Toa just make a metric ton of Toa stones and make a Toa army?" or "could Lhikan have made 1 Toa, or 3 Toa instead of 6?"

 

I feel like the answer to these questions and all the questions posed in the thread is pretty easy. The answer would be Destiny. You can crunch numbers all day trying to figure out how much energy is in a destined Matoran or a Toa or a Turaga, but I feel like Toa energy is something inherently present in a Toa's body, and in trace amounts in those of Matoran and Turaga. If you're destined to pass on your role to 6 new Toa, 6 Toa come into being, all with 100% Toa energy. A Toa, in a sense, could be seen as a sort of energy generator.

 

Does this make sense at all or am I talking nonsense?


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#20 Offline Katuko

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Posted Mar 22 2013 - 07:47 PM

I don't care too much about the exact amount of energy that goes around, since I have been under the impression that destined Matoran already have a storage of Toa energy that simply gets released/multiplied/charged up when they receive a trigger from something. I always saw the whole Toa Stone business as the Toa making such a trigger, by expending a portion of their Toa energy and placing it in a rock. The Matoran doesn't receive this energy so much as use it to trigger their own energy and make it bloom into its full effect.The only real question I have is where the Toa energy actually stays after the stone's creation. Is it in the stone itself, or is it linked directly to the Toa as a form of invisible connection? Lhikan didn't turn into a Turaga until the Toa Metru used the stones he created, after all. At the same time; what would have happened if he died? He seemed to be aware of the fact that he would soon be captured and possibly killed, so handing out Toa stones might not have been the best solution if his death meant that they lost their power source.
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