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MU Domes -- Theories & Map


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#1 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 12:20 PM

Over the years, fans have raised a number of serious challenges for understanding how to make sense of what has been established about the Matoran Universe's geography, and I've mentioned in passing several theories about them. This topic is an attempt at a definitive explanation, and map, of the geography of the domes and how they fit inside the giant robot. :)

 

Partly to help me figure it out in the first place, and partly because a picture's worth a thousand words, here's a map (version showing Barraki territories). I recommend viewing fullscreen to read the font better, or zooming in and scrolling around. (Click the thumbnail.)

 

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Non-Barraki version (designed to avoid overlapping parts so it's easy to edit)

 

This is the version of the Matoran Universe that I am using for a canon-fit retelling of all of Bionicle history I'm writing. I'm trying to make everything about this story feel as definitive and complete as possible while being a fun read, and later I plan to post a complete protodermis theory (draft already written) as well to go along with it. Not sure yet if I'll do any other theory topics for it at this point.

 

 

So, here's the canon facts in question.

 

First, the source files.

 

This is a concept art version of the giant robot, which I used (just the robot itself) to get an outline that represents a cutaway view which I could draw domes on. (All editing done in GIMP.) It might not be fully canon, but seems more or less the same as the canon portrayals (see here for various related images). Note that the ball pose and both versions of the prototype robot shown in the original image are clearly non-canon.

 

And this is the famous map of the Matoran Universe that doesn't show domes or tunnels, and clearly has some canon errors.

 

For example, Voya Nui could not possibly be anywhere near as huge as depicted there, since it ripped a hole in the top of the giant robot during the Great Cataclysm and let water pour down in; if it was that big, the whole thing would flood within a few hours to days, but in actual canon, it has only made a small lake after 1000 years. More mundane issues show up with the placement of each land in relation to its neighbors -- it's impossible to just overlay this map on the giant robot's outline and have all the land fit inside. Some have to be sized down, and nearly all have to be moved.

 

Another major issue that I ran into immediately was that even though the Southern Continent is canonically the biggest, all depictions of the robot's lower torso show barely any connected space, while the chest is huge. Were I making a map based on the robot's design, I wouldn't even have a continent there, and I'd have a huge one in the north.

 

I solved this by first sizing down everything significantly, and vastly increasing the distance between every land.

 

I had to move Daxia a lot specifically to get the SC to be as large as possible. And since there are some obvious spherical parts to the robot's design, including a large one in the lower middle of the chest, I aligned several domes with these, and put the NC in that large chest sphere. I also put the other torso islands in their own domes, and moved them significantly so they would be more geometrically aligned.

 

An alternate explanation of the chest region could be that it's all a large rectangular chamber with rounded edges, rather than a true dome, and the arrangement of the NC and the other torso islands like Zakaz and Stelt could be left as-is from the original map. This is almost as plausible as my more complicated interpretation, but it would make the ceiling be seriously unsound structurally, without invoking massive pillar supports. And the description to the right on the canon map clearly states that there are domes of varying sizes and that the continents are in domes, so the alternate explanation would require us to redefine "dome".

 

Another possibility is that I'm right to put each major land in a separate circular dome but that they actually are arranged in a random jumble inside the robot's chest. But that doesn't seem very robot-like to me. :P

 

It's canon that there are tunnels that connect different domes, and where these pass through a bending or swiveling joint in the robot, the tunnels bend.

 

The artificial gravity bends along a floor of these tunnels as well, and they are all filled with water -- except that it's confirmed the tunnel between Karzahni and Metru Nui is just land, with a peninsula jutting into Metru Nui. I assume that is meant as confirmation that the tunnel between those two lands is not flexible, which would imply that Karzahni needs moved way up away from Xia, into the back of the mouth area of the head (below the brain). There would be some other non-bending tubes as well, between the domes in the upper torso for example, or between domes in the same solid section of a limb.

 

I assume the tunnels are designed with many mobile ring sections circling the tunnel, so the whole collection will bend much like a LEGO Technic flexible tube.

 

A major mystery that has confused many fans is the sea gates leading from Metru Nui to other lands, apparently conflicting with the fact that Karzahni looks like it's in the neck and yet is a forgotten and forbidden land. So I have proposed that there are two extra tunnels leading from Metru Nui through the tubes on the sides of the neck to the torso. In total, there are thus three routes from MN, but the middle one has land obstructing it, so it is not a sea route. So the oft-mentioned "sea gates" are two in number, under this theory.

 

Although we should keep in mind that a single route around Karzahni and through the neck is also possible, as "gates" in the plural can still work as long as the tunnel has a gate on the left and a gate on the right, rather than one gate with a hinge only on one side. It's also possible both interpretations are true at the same time, so you could say there's "four gates".

 

For a reply in a previous topic I looked up the only depiction of this in Time Trap, when TSO & Sentrakh go through a sea gate, and it doesn't say. But it does say that it was "torn open". If it had hinges at all I wouldn't expect that description. I suspect it is lowered on a pulley and weight system. Note that the Mangai's gate on a land route was lowered into place, so there's nearby precedent for that interpretation, plus it would be more secure. All that's confirmed, though, is that it's metal.

 

I invoked a whole dome for the uninhabited (other than Rahi) island that Xia destroyed since it was blocking a major trade route. This happened to match the geometric pattern I had in mind, plus it forms a line to Odina, the Dark Hunters HQ, which seems to me to be the most likely place this particular route would head to. The BoM HQ moves around, and Toa are all over, etc.

 

I moved Zakaz quite a bit, partly because Ehlek's territory included both it and the western island chain. On the original map this looks a bit surprising and random, as Zakaz is in the middle, not to the west. This way it makes more sense.

 

I also moved Stelt a good distance, much more to the north, so it is central to the torso regions. This is another big stretch, but it seemed natural once I moved the NC to that sphere. An alternative explanation could be that Stelt is in a dome to the east of the NC (I included none there), and there'd be a matching dome to the west, getting a question mark as with two other domes to the south. But my way, Stelt is more central and this seemed to fit its highly varied nature better IMO.

 

I would even go so far as to propose Stelt as the island the six Barraki would meet on from time to time, including when they demanded the Brotherhood make Rahi for their military use, and when Teridax ambushed them. Admittedly there are other good candidates for this, though, especially Xia. Zakaz or a part of the NC would work too.

 

Another point of confusion in the official facts is that Artakha is portrayed as a huge, hard-to-miss island in one of the shoulders, and it's known that the islands you have to go through its dome to get to are part of the inhabited, interacting culture that excludes the Southern Chain islands -- they presumably get a lot of travel. To solve this I came up with a few ideas.

 

First, on the official map Artakha is shown a lot more to the west than others so I think instead of being centered in its dome it's off to one side. There could be constant fog, similar to the fog we've seen around Metru Nui, and since the tunnels are at an angle, if you sailed as the crow flies between them you wouldn't reach the center of the dome anyways, much less the northwestern side.

 

Second, the concept art of the giant robot shows a tube with seemingly no purpose connecting the lower part of the chest to the armpit, basically (the upper inner side of the arm itself, that is). I propose that this is an alternate, backup route between the other islands in the arm and the torso besides the tunnel between Artakha's dome and the torso. Bad rumors about its dome could have been spread (landless but dangerous, perhaps due to First Rahi or the like) so that people would intentionally avoid it, while having no idea they are avoiding a landmass.

 

This setup is mirrored on the eastern side but there would be no such fear about that shoulder dome.

 

Another big reason I made this map was to visually try to theorize where the approximate borders of the Barraki's territories were, in the League of Six Kingdoms. We know a lot about this, but most of the descriptions are vague, other than confirmation that Ehlek had Zakaz and Pridak had Xia. We also know some islands that are out of their control, as BS01 says:

 

The Barraki managed to conquer most of the Matoran Universe, with the exceptions of Artakha, Metru Nui, Daxia, Karzahni and the far reaches of the Southern Islands.

 

It doesn't mention Destral, but I've shown Destral as floating in its original location and outside their territory. I don't know (and have failed to find an answer so far) whether Destral was already teleporting around during the League, but we know that the Brotherhood met with the League and was forced to make Rahi for them. This implies they were under League control, politically, but may also imply that their land was still ruled by the Makuta, not the League, since they had to meet "in a Barraki tower" (according to BS01's timeline), rather than simply in the meeting room already built on Destral (where the Convocation later took place).

 

My Artakha theory explains its exemption, and the active ban on going to Karzahni in early years explains that. Metru Nui is confirmed to have gotten a special deal. The Southern islands simply remained unexplored (it seems it was a nearly universal trait to not want to travel that far among the northern population).

 

What about Daxia? If it has its own dome as I depicted (which may very well be wrong), you'd think they'd look for an island in that dome, and I doubt we can invoke the "scary waters" explanation twice. However, the fortress is apparently hidden inland, and the climate is oppressively hot, plus the land is confirmed to have a few dangerous Rahi species. So they may have just assumed it was uninhabited, and didn't want it themselves either.

 

Another problem in figuring out Barraki territory is that a full three of them are mentioned as having western lands, but only Pridak is ever mentioned as having eastern lands. He's said to have "northestern" lands, including Xia.

 

But what about the more southernly of the islands in the left arm? I assume that another Barraki would not have these because they'd have to travel through the northeast (Pridak's area) to get to them. You can't just travel as the crow flies between the SC and Visorak or Nynrah. Also, Nynrah is closely related culturally to Xia even though they're so distant. So the simple solution is to define "north" in comparison with the extreme south, and give Pridak the whole left/east arm plus Xia.

 

I also gave him Stelt, with the idea that it's where all the Barraki would meet from time to time, so is sort of the HQ of the League, but this theory could be completely wrong. I chose it mainly because it's such a varied island which seems to imply something like neutrality, and in more modern times they try to tear down any building. They could have gotten the idea from the Brotherhood tearing down the Barraki main fortress if it was there. Of course, the Skakdi do the same basic thing. On my map Stelt is central to the northern regions, but on the original Zakaz is.

 

However, Pridak is sort of the leader of the Barraki, and Zakaz is confirmed to be Ehlek's territory. I would think their central ruling place would be in Pridak's land. So that narrows it down to Xia (confirmed in his land) and Stelt (not confirmed). In my theory, Xia is Pridak's personal HQ, as he seems to really like the place, which could make it less desirable to the others as a place for them all to meet. The others would have their own personal HQs too, like Ehlek's on Zakaz.

 

Kalmah is "northwestern lands" (yet this has to exclude the actual northwestern lands on the official map, Artakha and Zakaz). I presume this means the northwestern part of the NC, or perhaps the whole NC. I gave the main mass of that continent to him with no other land, but excluding the Tren Krom Peninsula.

 

Takadox is "southwestern lands". Yet, Carapar is not contrasted with southeastern, which would have made it easy -- Carapar is given "southern lands".

 

I interpreted this as saying Carapar gets the southeastern tip of the SC (which reaches farther south than the southwest), plus going up a bit on the east side, and then the northernmost of the Southern Chain islands (Artidax, etc.). So Takadox gets the whole western coast of the SC and much of the land in between (mostly unpopulated).

 

Mantax is given "central lands". That could mean a lot of things. I think he's the other main candidate for Stelt, since it's central-east (in torso) on the original map, but I've already explained above why I doubt this. I suspect Mantax originated in the northern coast of the Southern Continent, which is probably where most of the villages, towns, or cities are. So I think his main territory is the northern, most populated, part of the SC. Plus I have him given the Tren Krom Peninsula as a bonus to make his total region seem more "central".

 

Note that there is an artificial gravity field throughout all these domes, defining the robot's back (and, when the limbs, neck, or waist bend, the back of that particular part) as "down". Yet when the robot stands up on a megaplanet, on dry land, as Mata Nui was constructed standing in the Great Barren and Makuta later stood on Bara Magna, there's a hatch at the bottom of the foot and people come out with "down" being true down.

 

So I propose that the tunnel between the southernmost domes and these hatches gradually twist, including the grav field, to align with true down. The effect would be almost imperceptible as you went along it.

 

An open question I have is whether this tunnel has water in it (which could risk a leak thanks to the altered gravity), or whether it's a land route. On the map as I have it you could interpret it as water, but in my story I've defined it as a land route. I just didn't want to show land since it's not confirmed. What we do know is that some stretch of it at least is land, between the main tunnel and the hatch itself.

 

In my story I invoke a sea vessel designed by the Great Beings and used by them for travel, to be docked wherever the water ends and reached on foot after entering the hatch. Something like this would make sense to explain how they traveled around to do the various chores just before the robot launched, like moving Tren Krom or hiding the Ignika.

 

Another issue I made no attempt to theorize for is that we know of more minor locations including "islands" than there are islands on the map that aren't already known.

 

It can seem like this wasn't thought through very well, but this is easily solved with two explanations. First, some of these locations are almost certainly the same. Like, the unknown island where a particular minor battle took place could also be the island where Lesovikk's village was with the insane Turaga. 

Second, there are some confirmed tiny islands (I would call them islets) within the same dome as major islands, generally too small to show up on either the official map or mine. This could also work if they're large enough to show up but Greg simply didn't bother to include them on his map. Metru Nui has one confirmed. Artakha's dome used to have a second island but it was later destroyed. The Dark Hunter Tyrant's homeland is said to be a small island south of Odina -- this may be the one in its own dome shown on the map or a tiny island in Odina's dome.

 

Also, in at least one clear case, in the right leg, there are two islands (I nickname them the Endquote Islands for their shape :P) that are side by side, so apparently have to share a dome. And a few domes north of there, two other islands seemed too side-by-side again to not share a dome. Artidax actually could be interpreted as a third island sharing that dome, but I felt this made no sense because it's been explored and they haven't.

 

Incidentally, here's a bonus theory to help explain why those Southern Chain islands remain so unexplored.

 

Since Artidax was placed so close to the islands south of it, I propose that it's almost flush with the tunnel connecting to them -- possibly (though I didn't show it so) even blocking the sea route through. The land is shadowy, mysterious, and dangerous, so that could explain why nobody's eager to go past it. On the other side, Keetongu's island is populated by ginormous, intelligent, and dangerous Tahtorak land dragons. Perhaps they will attack any boat they see offshore (I assume they can at least wade out a little, though they probably wouldn't swim to another dome), so people could have similar issues with sailing that way.

 

 

 

And that's all I've got for now. Thoughts? Questions? Criticisms? More ideas? :)


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#2 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 12:42 PM

Skimming through a lot of your text (Really skimming :P), I couldn't see anything on the position of Karda-Nui, and we know it's under the southern continent, it doesn't seem right that it would be where you've put the southern continent.  I'm also thinking that when the Ignika was ejected from the Codrex, in both TLR and the Mata-Nui rises animation, it seemed to be coming from the upper torso.

 

The rest of the map looks good, this was just my first thought, and it'll take time to read this through fully and think about it.  Must've taken an incredible amount of work though, but I think this will prove to be very helpful to a lot of people.


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#3 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 12:49 PM

For a reply in a previous topic I looked up the only depiction of this in Time Trap, when TSO & Sentrakh go through a sea gate, and it doesn't say. But it does say that it was "torn open". If it had hinges at all I wouldn't expect that description. I suspect it is lowered on a pulley and weight system. Note that the Mangai's gate on a land route was lowered into place, so there's nearby precedent for that interpretation, plus it would be more secure. All that's confirmed, though, is that it's metal.

 

Remember, the Sea Gates were closed so I expect they were frozen or blocked by rubble and such so they would've to tear that open first.

 

Also how about the Underwater Chutes, there's some problem there, Jaller and Friends used one to reach Karzahi not, why would the Matoran build a tunnel to there if there was another way?


Edited by Dual Matrix, Mar 19 2013 - 12:50 PM.

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#4 Offline Chro

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 12:55 PM

I'm resisting the urge to make interesting comments about the Barraki's respective territories...

But honestly this is fantastic, bonesiii. Just what we've been waiting for for a long time, for everything to make sense. XD

Of course, as you said, it may not be entirely correct (and probably isn't, as it's theoretical). But I think it's a good starting point, so to speak, to create an even more accurate map when (if) more information is revealed.


Edited by Chro, Mar 19 2013 - 12:57 PM.

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#5 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 01:24 PM

well, I can imagine your fingers hurt after typing all this! later tonight i'll read the whole thing, but wow. you did some research here!


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#6 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 01:38 PM

[color=#023601;font-style:normal;]Skimming through a lot of your text (Really skimming :P), I couldn't see anything on the position of Karda-Nui, and we know it's under the southern continent, it doesn't seem right that it would be where you've put the southern continent.  I'm also thinking that when the Ignika was ejected from the Codrex, in both TLR and the Mata-Nui rises animation, it seemed to be coming from the upper torso.[/color]

The map itself does briefly mention Karda Nui in the description under the Southern Continent label. There's really not much to say as we know where it is exactly. (Well, "somewhere under the continent").

 

It seems you're thinking that it could be in the upper torso -- that all the torso lands would be up there? I considered that, but it just seems like too much of a stretch. That would put a huge gap between the southern continent and the northernmost of the islands in the legs, and what would occupy the lower torso then? 

As for the Ignika, it could not have been ejected upward from the Codrex because the energy storms had already started and filled the Karda Nui dome by that time. (Unless it was secretly shot out and not mentioned anywhere in canon before this, but that seems highly unlikely, as we don't see it being shot out until the robot has already stood up, and to do that, the storms have to be fully powered up.) Therefore, there must at least be a wire and a small tube (big enough at least for a mask) going down under the Codrex and angling north, where it comes up to that opening.

 

IMO that port may actually be normally used for collecting space matter to convert to energy as fuel (sending it to Karda Nui), so having such a tunnel would make a lot of sense. And Mata Nui's consciousness had to be transferred into the Ignika anyways so there has to at least be something like a wire connection, plus the whole point of Karda Nui is to power the rest of the robot.

 

In my story I also include a theory related to this, that there is a whole network of underground tunnels that special repair robots travel through. These actually do most of the work maintaining the giant robot; the Matoran just keep up repair skyscrapers that these robots stop off at. Possibly the Matoran don't even know they exist, or assume they're part of the skyscraper machinery. But these robots are completely unconfirmed canonically. Mainly the idea here is to explain how the Matoran could maintain the giant robot and yet not know they're in one, since there's much more to the robot than just what's on the islands. So the Ignika would essentially have been forced along one of these tunnels, out to the port in the chest.

 

Remember, the Sea Gates were closed so I expect they were frozen or blocked by rubble and such so they would've to tear that open first.

Well, the metal gate(s) itself/themselves were said to be torn open. There was no mention of cold or rubble or anything like that, and I see no need to invoke such a thing.

 

Also how about the Underwater Chutes, there's some problem there, Jaller and Friends used one to reach Karzahi not, why would the Matoran build a tunnel to there if there was another way?

There's not really a problem -- they could have used a boat but chose to use the chutes instead, just as people could use vehicles on Metru Nui but usually use chutes. Chutes are faster, and the threat of the whole system collapsing was heavy on their minds -- it was an emergency. And since we know that peninsula juts into the Metru Nui dome, it's already confirmed there's another way -- by boat or flying vehicle.

 

IMO, they probably also chose chutes because they were leaving against Dume's wishes, and it's more likely they could run into trouble at the docks trying to get a boat. The Matoran who run them would have a vested interest in obeying Dume's orders and making sure everyone else does, because he could have them fired from their jobs if they disobey.

 

[font="Verdana;font-size:12px;color:#808080;font-style:normal;"]But I think it's a good starting point, so to speak, to create an even more accurate map when (if) more information is revealed.[/font]

Yeah, that's the hope. ^_^ Thanks.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2013 - 01:41 PM.

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#7 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 01:46 PM

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]Mainly the idea here is to explain how the Matoran could maintain the giant robot and yet not know they're in one[/color]

[color=rgb(40,40,40);font-family:helvetica, arial, sans-serif;]small theory but a possible: what if the time slip, not only making a period where the matoran can't remember anything, but also erased everything but their most recent memories, say, 100 years back?[/color]


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#8 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 01:49 PM

That was interesting, because I never really knew how the domes worked.
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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 04:24 PM

[color=#282828;][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"]Mainly the idea here is to explain how the Matoran could maintain the giant robot and yet not know they're in one[/color][/font]

[color=#282828;][font="helvetica, arial, sans-serif;"]small theory but a possible: what if the time slip, not only making a period where the matoran can't remember anything, but also erased everything but their most recent memories, say, 100 years back?[/color][/font]

Do you mean like perhaps a major repair was needed at that time, and many of them might have learned the nature of the giant robot while repairing it?

 

Not really sure how the Time Slip worked -- presumably people were still intelligent at the time and remembered whether they'd gone to work that day or not, etc. I've been assuming it was a universe-wide backwards memory erasure at the end of it.


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#10 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 04:31 PM

There's not really a problem -- they could have used a boat but chose to use the chutes instead, just as people could use vehicles on Metru Nui but usually use chutes. Chutes are faster, and the threat of the whole system collapsing was heavy on their minds -- it was an emergency. And since we know that peninsula juts into the Metru Nui dome, it's already confirmed there's another way -- by boat or flying vehicle.

I was meaning that why did there lead a Chute to Karzahi if the builders of it had another way, since you won't want to pass that cursed land.

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#11 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 04:37 PM

There are two things I must comment about:

 

1. The Southern Continent cannot be in the pelvis, because that would mean that Karda Nui is within the pelvis too. This makes no sense, since it's the "heart" of the robot, and the heart is generally in the chest. Also, as was already pointed out, the Ignika was shown being shot out of the chest. You counteracted this, but I don't see how Makuta couldn't have made parts of his body intangible and let the Ignika fly right through the Codrex, the storms and the outer chest? Anyway, the position of Karda Nui in the pelvis thing... it does not make sense and I doubt the Bionicle story team had it planned like that.

 

2. Why does Karzahni have to be so high up north? Jaller and co. used underwater chutes to get to the northern tip of Karzahni, and we don't know how long the chute was. Karzahni could easily be lower, which would also explain why many Matoran didn't even know of its excistence. If Karzahni was that close to Metru Nui, anyone could have seen it from the Metru Nui southern shoreline, no?

 

Other than these, the map looks good and accurate. The position of the Southern Continent bugs me quite much, though. If that was changed, the map would be perfect.


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#12 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 04:38 PM

What if both the Northern and Southern Continents were in the robot's chest? The Northern Continent doesn't have to be in the dead center; it could be offset, as well as the Southern Continent. Islands such as Zakaz and Xia could be further north, in the robot's lower neck. This would make a lot more sense to me.


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#13 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 04:42 PM

For a reply in a previous topic I looked up the only depiction of this in Time Trap, when TSO & Sentrakh go through a sea gate, and it doesn't say. But it does say that it was "torn open". If it had hinges at all I wouldn't expect that description. I suspect it is lowered on a pulley and weight system. Note that the Mangai's gate on a land route was lowered into place, so there's nearby precedent for that interpretation, plus it would be more secure. All that's confirmed, though, is that it's metal.

 Remember, the Sea Gates were closed so I expect they were frozen or blocked by rubble and such so they would've to tear that open first. Also how about the Underwater Chutes, there's some problem there, Jaller and Friends used one to reach Karzahi not, why would the Matoran build a tunnel to there if there was another way?

I don't remember them using the chutes the whole time, they walked through the dark tunnel and then a barrier where Takanuva had to turn back :( and then they reached Karzanhi's.

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#14 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 05:35 PM

Dual Matrix, on 19 Mar 2013 - 17:35, said:

QuoteThere's not really a problem -- they could have used a boat but chose to use the chutes instead, just as people could use vehicles on Metru Nui but usually use chutes. Chutes are faster, and the threat of the whole system collapsing was heavy on their minds -- it was an emergency. And since we know that peninsula juts into the Metru Nui dome, it's already confirmed there's another way -- by boat or flying vehicle.

I was meaning that why did there lead a Chute to Karzahi if the builders of it had another way, since you won't want to pass that cursed land.

There's no real reason they couldn't. All that is necessary is that they wanted to. I was confused about that too, though, as I was researching things for my story. I had been under the false impression that chutes were invented early in the MU's history, so the underwater chute would have been from before Karzahni was known to be bad. However, BS01's timeline clearly states that chutes were invented just 4000 years before the Great Cataclysm, way later than that, so it is puzzling.My guess is they were simply aware of the peninsula at that point but had forgotten that it connected to Karzahni, and just figured they might want to colonize it someday or whatnot.

 

QuoteThe Southern Continent cannot be in the pelvis, because that would mean that Karda Nui is within the pelvis too. This makes no sense, since it's the "heart" of the robot, and the heart is generally in the chest.

First, it can be there. "Generally" doesn't logically lead to "cannot." :) More importantly, this is only an analogy to real-life humans and Greg has been clear many times that such analogous arguments are flawed because Bionicle is often different. True, we have evidence of it with Matoran heartlights, but there's no reason to take this as a rule. Matoran also wear masks, while Mata Nui does not.Like I said, if you move the SC into the chest, then I think this is too much of a stretch deviating from Greg's map. His depiction clearly implies the SC is in the pelvis. You'd never look at his map and think, "that's the chest." I was willing to move things around a little but a major blatant contradiction of it like that is a bit too much for me. :)Also, it's called the "heart", but that's just a metaphor. It's not biological at all, like the biomechanical Matoran, has no need for a digestion system to take up the normal lower place, etc. Karda Nui is actually the power core / main reactor, and when you look at it that way, it could be seen as more analogous to the stomach, or having no relation to organic anatomy at all.It also occurred to me that it makes much more sense to be in the pelvis from an engineering standpoint, since the main thrusters are in the feet and there's more room for thick power lines there, versus if they have to travel down through those three tubes from the chest. Since propulsion will be the main drain on power anyways, it makes sense to put the heart closer to the engines in the feet.So, it's comparable to Star Trek's spaceship the Enterprise, with the power core in the middle back, so it's closer to the warp nacelles, rather than in the saucer section (equivalent to the chest).And BTW, this question has come up in every topic discussing this in the past and it's generally agreed that as awkward as it is, Karda Nui has to be understood as being in the pelvis, and thus the Southern Continent too, for the above reasons. There is no direct evidence for the SC being in the chest. An analogy to human or Matoran anatomy isn't really evidence, other than of the vaguest sort.Although if I had my 'druthers, that's where it would be, lol.

 

QuoteAlso, as was already pointed out, the Ignika was shown being shot out of the chest. You counteracted this, but I don't see how Makuta couldn't have made parts of his body intangible and let the Ignika fly right through the Codrex, the storms and the outer chest?

[Edit: It seems you had a typo, meaning to say "I don't see why he couldn't have", and I misinterpreted. Still, the following clarification is helpful to explain why I think my way clearly has strong evidence and the alternative has none or very little.Yes, Makuta could just "magic it away" but we can do better than that. :P And with the Ignika, considering what it does if it's destroyed, no way he would risk it really. The whole reason he needed to eject it in the first place rather than just destroying it was because of the countdown and how dangerous it was to him. So, if he was going to use intangibility, he would send it along the same route as this tunnel I'm theorizing anyways, and we're once again left only with evidence that the SC must be farther south than the port the Ignika was shot out of, not with evidence for it being more northernly.]That was actually my point. There's only open air between the Codrex and the front of the robot, if it simply traveled in a straight line "up" (from the gravity field; forward). Think about it. The storms were running at the time, right? So it's the idea that the SC is in the chest that runs into a problem with that, not mine. Putting the SC into the chest just because of where the Ignika comes out implies that you assume the Ignika flew up in Karda Nui's dome, towards its roof, and out through the SC itself, then out a hole/port in the roof of the dome over the SC -- right? Yet, that cannot be, because of those very energy storms which would (probably) destroy the Ignika.Therefore, we need to invoke tunnels underneath the Codrex anyways to get the Ignika out of it without going up and through the storms, going under Karda Nui's dome and only moving "up" (forward for the robot) once it's farther north from the SC. Make sense?So I'm saying, since we need to have such a north-heading deep-underground tunnel anyways for the Ignika, it's easy to imagine that the SC is in the lower torso and this tunnel goes up to the chest. So once again, this really doesn't work as evidence of the SC's placement, other than that it has to be to the south of that port. I'd say it's actually evidence it's in the lower torso.Re: intangibility -- you may have missed part of what I said about the theoretical underground network of tunnels. There's no need for intangibility in what I proposed there. :) And if there was, I'd think the "straight up from the Codrex" idea would imply it just as much, since at the time, Voya Nui had just moved back into place and the outer hole had been sealed as well. (Really, either way it's more likely there's simply a hatch.)

 

[Edit: Note, either way we must have something running in a line through the waist. My way, only smaller power lines and a tunnel just large enough for a mask are needed. Plenty of room. But if the SC is in the torso, we need to have thicker power cables (or conduits, however it works) going back down the torso, for the feet engines. Six of one, half dozen of the other. :P]

 

QuoteAnyway, the position of Karda Nui in the pelvis thing... it does not make sense and I doubt the Bionicle story team had it planned like that.

I wish they hadn't. :P But it's what we're stuck with. And it does make engineering sense; see above. Greg apparently did plan it that way, or else why draw his map the way he did?

 

QuoteWhy does Karzahni have to be so high up north?

I explained this in the firstpost and in the image text -- it's confirmed that Karzahni's land crosses through the tunnel between its dome and Metru Nui's dome, and the northernmost peninsula of it juts into Metru Nui's dome. There's no water in the tunnel between the domes, just solid (unbroken) land. This means that tunnel cannot be flexible, so it cannot be the neck.Also, there's plenty of room south of the brain area, especially in the giant robot's head design, for a secondary dome. The head is a tall rectangle, not a square/circle, so it can contain two stacked circles (though Karzahni's is probably smaller, as depicted on my map). Plus, the neck itself seems awfully thin to me to house a dome. We'd have to make Karzahni even smaller that way. This way makes sense of all the facts we have about it. :)

 

QuoteJaller and co. used underwater chutes to get to the northern tip of Karzahni, and we don't know how long the chute was.

We could estimate based on Metru Nui and the giant robot's confirmed sizes, although it doesn't really interest me. We do know that it's close to half the width of the Metru Nui dome, since they were crossing from Metru Nui itself to the peninsula of Karzahni that reaches in from the Great Barrier.

 

QuoteKarzahni could easily be lower

How? It doesn't seem so easy to me. It's got to be somewhere that's easy to get around, and it's got to be rigidly connected with the Metru Nui dome. If it was lower, Mata Nui couldn't bend his head! Yet he often does (and Makuta in his body).

 

Quotewhich would also explain why many Matoran didn't even know of its excistence.

I don't see why that would make any difference. Either way, it's around the neck area, along a route they don't use. Since it can be farther north or farther south, why not be more north?This line of reasoning you're using seems contradictory. It sounds like the only evidence you're basing this on is Greg's map showing Karzahni more to the south than on my map. But to take that literally we'd have to contradict other confirmed evidence like the peninsula's confirmed location. Isn't it more important to accept confirmed evidence than a map which is clearly not meant to be to scale and the like?More to the point, you're arguing against moving Karzahni just a tiny distance to the north, while at the same time arguing for moving the whole Southern Continent way to the north... I don't follow. :P

 

QuoteIf Karzahni was that close to Metru Nui, anyone could have seen it from the Metru Nui southern shoreline, no?

Not the main part of it. Only that peninsula. Keep in mind it's confirmed they knew of the peninsula as recently as 4000 years ago, since they built that chute to it.Please note that the scale of the tunnels and the islands within their domes is not in all cases meant to be exactly accurate in my map. With Karzahni, the possible issue is with the width of the tunnel connecting that northern peninsula to the main mass to the south. IMO it's likely much, much thinner. I only kept it that wide because I didn't want to deviate too much from Greg's map. That's how he drew the island's shape, so I just threw it in with minimal editing. And I was depicting all the tunnels as much wider than they are anyways, so they'd be easier to see, etc.Regardless, keep in mind we've often seen fog in the dome, and the Great Barrier has never seemed "right over thar". :P So anything along the Great Barrier is likely not that easy to see until you get up close to it. Plus there's the sky illusion to consider. I often get the impression that from Metru Nui, you can't see the Great Barrier at all; the illusion seems to reach all the way down to the horizon, and it only seems to fade upward as you boat closer to it.Even if they knew of the tunnel leading to Karzahni's dome, anyone who actually tried to enter it would be probably hopelessly lost in the field of shadow energy and wouldn't return to tell the tale. It took the Ignika creating a physical projection of a hand to guide them out, through Matoro -- otherwise they probably would have died in there, and many others probably have. The only issue I see (which makes me want to hope that tunnel is much smaller and harder to spot) is that Jaller's group seemed to have no prior knowledge of it.Of course, all seven in that group had lost their memories, and maybe the Turaga just never saw fit to mention it to them. My guess is they came to the place for the underwater chutes (and I'm assuming there's three -- there could be just two, though, since we know Visorak came in under the Sea Gate(s) in one/two), and just picked one, having no idea where it would lead exactly but hoping it would be in the right direction.Prior to the GC, people probably knew not to use the middle chute. Although they wouldn't know to avoid the canyon on Karzahni where the tyrant lived, they could know that it's just a rock peninsula that's boring and have no desire to go that way, and/or know of the Tunnel of Shadow and be afraid to go that way. Of course, at first people were sent to that land (long before the chutes were made), and leaders actively banned going there. It seems that the explanation for the ban was forgotten over the 100,000 years, but the ban itself might not have been.So in other words, it's irrelevant whether people could see the peninsula from Metru Nui or not. Either way, we know it's there, and we know they didn't go that way prior to the GC (after the ban on going there early in history).

 

QuoteWhat if both the Northern and Southern Continents were in the robot's chest? The Northern Continent doesn't have to be in the dead center; it could be offset, as well as the Southern Continent. Islands such as Zakaz and Xia could be further north, in the robot's lower neck. This would make a lot more sense to me.

I do consider Xia to be in the lower neck. Look carefully at the robot's exterior there on the left. There's two big pistons between the neck and shoulder, which seem to make the torso's main mass higher in the cutaway than it is (the cutaway probably should have those white gaps over there, I didn't bother, because I doubt tunnels run through those pistons). There's a wider part in the base of the neck; I put Xia's dome inside that.And yeah, the NC could be offset, but like I said, then we'd have to ignore the wording on Greg's map (the description to the right) that clearly confirms the continents are in "domes". This would seem hard to justify in a symmetrical robot, though possible.Plus, assuming we stick with the SC being in the lower torso (I know that's not what you're saying, but see above and previous post, plus original post for clear strong evidence it is), then we leave that big sphere shape in the chest unused. So I think it makes more sense to put the NC in that. Then there's room in the rest of the chest for the other islands around the NC (in their own domes, re: the desc. on Greg's map).

 

QuoteI don't remember them using the chutes the whole time, they walked through the dark tunnel and then a barrier where Takanuva had to turn back :( and then they reached Karzanhi's.

Nevertheless, BS01 confirms it. This was before the tunnel, obviously. I think the book didn't bother describing it, though it may have mentioned it, I forget. And since it's just one chute, I'd leave off the plural, to nitpick. :P


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2013 - 06:09 PM.

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#15 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 07:49 PM

Faber+Files_2001-2008.jpg

 

Unfortunately, this image is probably the biggest point of contention for your map regarding the Southern Continent placement.  This clearly shows the giant whirlpool which fed directly into Karda Nui and through the Southern Continent as being in the upper torso, and not in the hip region.  I know that trying to actually fit all of the islands into the shape of the robot is a giant pain, I've made a map of my own and I had to take serious "artistic license" to make it work.


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#16 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 08:18 PM

Question... how do you get to Metru Nui by boat? How did they go from Mata-Nui to Metru-Nui on a boat? It is right below Mata-Nui, so wouldnt thy basically just fall onto Metru Nui? And if those are domes, you could basically sail a Boat to the edge of the ocean and you would strike a metal wall?


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#17 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 08:43 PM

Faber+Files_2001-2008.jpg

 

Unfortunately, this image is probably the biggest point of contention for your map regarding the Southern Continent placement.  This clearly shows the giant whirlpool which fed directly into Karda Nui and through the Southern Continent as being in the upper torso, and not in the hip region.  I know that trying to actually fit all of the islands into the shape of the robot is a giant pain, I've made a map of my own and I had to take serious "artistic license" to make it work.

Actually, that is a very early concept art that is now clearly not canon. There was no giant whirlpool -- that idea was scrapped completely.

 

Notice the only finalized images on that are the image of Mata Nui (island) and Metru Nui -- if you look in the lower right corner, you'll see "06" there. Although the image was only copyrighted for public viewing in 2012, this was done purely for interest sake into the early planning by Faber. The appearances of Voya Nui, Mahri Nui, and Karda Nui are all very early and not quite accurate, especially Karda Nui (no sand). This was before Greg made the canon map linked in the first post. It was just brainstorming for what they would probably do later.

 

I know I used a concept image in my map too, for the giant robot, but only because it closely matches the finalized design in nearly every way. :)

 

So basically, in the early plans, it would have been under the northern continent, or at least this is just as likely as your interpretation -- that image is really of no help in determining canon. I'll grant you that it's more very loose evidence, but since we must choose from Greg's canon map and an early concept that is clearly wrong on several points (as far as later canon goes), I'll go with Greg. :P

 

Question... how do you get to Metru Nui by boat? How did they go from Mata-Nui to Metru-Nui on a boat? It is right below Mata-Nui, so wouldnt thy basically just fall onto Metru Nui? And if those are domes, you could basically sail a Boat to the edge of the ocean and you would strike a metal wall?

A good one to bring up in a topic seeking to be definitive. :) This has been asked and answered many times but here we go again.

 

After the Rahkshi story in chronological time, they did not go by boat until they reached the edge of the Great Barrier. They carried the boats down a land route from Kini-Nui to the Mangaia (Makuta's lair), and then to the Barrier (which is where the wall of the Metru Nui dome meets the edge of the sea in that dome). Then they put the boats in the water there and crossed the distance to Metru Nui by sea. This path was apparently built in to the giant robot by design.

 

While we're on the subject, the question of how a boat (the walking "Vahki transport" vehicle they named the Lhikan after he died, and used as if it was a boat) could go up to Mata Nui from Metru Nui usually comes up in the same topics, so I'll pre-emptively strike. :P

 

The Great Cataclysm caused many cracks to open throughout the giant robot, and Mata Nui landed on Aqua Magna, which is entirely ocean. In the Toa Metru's first trip up (before the Visorak story, with just six pods, then losing Ahkmou's), they found a river which had been coming down one of those ways. When they reached the top they sealed it so it would stop leaking. (I forget how they got back down but it was a land route; I think another crack that wasn't open to the AM ocean.) And the next time they used airships to fly out one of the sun-holes.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2013 - 08:48 PM.

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#18 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 11:30 PM

I thought you could see the giant whirlpool in some of the comics when Voya Nui is sinking back down.  Anyways, I personally think it makes the most sense for the Southern Continent to be in the torso, but other than that, I like how you divided up the domes and islands.  In my map I initially tried a dome for every island but I didn't like the way it turned out so I just combined several domes for each body part basically, so kudos to you for finding a way to make it geometrically look good and make sense.


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#19 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 19 2013 - 11:49 PM

Is this the image I recall someone posting in a previous topic, DLB? I remember something like that partially inspired me to try this version, but I forgot who made it. Maybe you could link to it again here, since I think I'll be linking people back to this topic often in the future and it would be nice to show some alternatives too. :)

 

Edit: Only comic I'm aware of that could show that is this one. There's no whirlpool. I'll grant you there's some effects coming out of the hole VN is headed to early on that could be interpreted as air that has reached down in from a huge whirlpool, but there's two of them rather than one, so I think this is just meant to imply the ocean current coming in.

 

In fact, the lack of any air going up has brought up questions in past topics, and one theory I came up with to help explain it is there may actually be forcefields to prevent air from escaping from any cracks, in case one would form while in space. A field "skin" that would block air, but not solids or liquids. Or, we could just interpret the comic art as very sketchy (which is true for 2007 -- most details are left undrawn, unfortunately, as seen with the very basic version of the Ignika).

 

This doesn't disprove that there's a whirlpool on the surface, of course. But I'm pretty sure I heard it was scrapped somewhere. At least it wasn't shown in canon story as far as I know. And even if it was, it would probably be over the lower torso now since plans apparently changed. Anywho.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 19 2013 - 11:58 PM.

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#20 Offline Voxumo

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 12:22 AM

*stares and drools* this is the greatest thing ever. Even though the MUrobot is no longer operational this is still a great benefit to those who do stories set in the robot. Thank you bonesii for this great piece of work.


Edited by Vox The Shadow of Reality, Mar 20 2013 - 12:23 AM.

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#21 Offline Janus

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 12:41 AM

I agree on the locations of Takadox and Carapar.


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#22 Offline Makaru

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 12:41 AM

I agree on the locations of Takadox and Carapar.

MHMMMMM, that shore is some good placement.


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#23 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 03:33 AM

Oh... my... goodness... too much... text... :P

 

Okay, I wrote my comment during the night (here in Finland) so I said some things a bit "unscientifically", so to speak. I'll try answer more carefully now.

 

First of all, before I start, I would like to link this MU fan map. Personally, I have been using that for about a year now when thinking of the MU. It is by no means any more canon or accurate than yours, but it is a reason why I question some things about your map, especially concerning the placement of Karda Nui and Karzahni. The map I linked shows that it can actually work that way.

 

 

Quote

QuoteThe Southern Continent cannot be in the pelvis, because that would mean that Karda Nui is within the pelvis too. This makes no sense, since it's the "heart" of the robot, and the heart is generally in the chest.

First, it can be there. "Generally" doesn't logically lead to "cannot." :) More importantly, this is only an analogy to real-life humans and Greg has been clear many times that such analogous arguments are flawed because Bionicle is often different. True, we have evidence of it with Matoran heartlights, but there's no reason to take this as a rule. Matoran also wear masks, while Mata Nui does not. 

 

I find the heartlight fact strong evidence, since anatomy follows certain laws in any universe. By this I mean that if Mata Nui's heart is in the pelvis, the Matoran should have similar anatomy as well. This can easily be rebutted by asking "why does it have to be like that" but remember that the storyteam intentionally created connections between the Bionicle world and the real world, just to make it easier for fans to connect to them. In my opinion, while this does not actually prove anything, it strongly suggests a certain type of placement for Karda Nui.

 

Also, Mata Nui may not wear a mask but he has a face, no? Just like the Matoran. Kanohi are merely items on faces. You and I both have a face, I assume ( :P ) but we might not necessarily have to wear a hat.

 

What I'm saying here is that although the MU is different from the human world, it was created by humans to market toys for children. I find this heavy on the scale. Why would they differentiate so much from the "normal" anatomy while designing a character?

 

Like I said, if you move the SC into the chest, then I think this is too much of a stretch deviating from Greg's map. His depiction clearly implies the SC is in the pelvis. You'd never look at his map and think, "that's the chest." I was willing to move things around a little but a major blatant contradiction of it like that is a bit too much for me. :) 

But didn't you say it yourself that Greg's map has serious canon errors? This might be just one of them. In Greg's map, there actually seems to be no pelvis at all. The SC is huge, for one thing, and to me in kinda represents a fat belly. :P This is all about interpretation, of course. But to move the SC to the pelvis, you have to deviate from Greg's map in the sense that you need to shrink the size of the continent. Would it be much bigger of a stretch to move it up north and shrink it a little less?

 

Also, it's called the "heart", but that's just a metaphor. It's not biological at all, like the biomechanical Matoran, has no need for a digestion system to take up the normal lower place, etc. Karda Nui is actually the power core / main reactor, and when you look at it that way, it could be seen as more analogous to the stomach, or having no relation to organic anatomy at all.

It also occurred to me that it makes much more sense to be in the pelvis from an engineering standpoint, since the main thrusters are in the feet and there's more room for thick power lines there, versus if they have to travel down through those three tubes from the chest. Since propulsion will be the main drain on power anyways, it makes sense to put the heart closer to the engines in the feet.So, it's comparable to Star Trek's spaceship the Enterprise, with the power core in the middle back, so it's closer to the warp nacelles, rather than in the saucer section (equivalent to the chest).It also occurred to me that it makes much more sense to be in the pelvis from an engineering standpoint, since the main thrusters are in the feet and there's more room for thick power lines there, versus if they have to travel down through those three tubes from the chest. Since propulsion will be the main drain on power anyways, it makes sense to put the heart closer to the engines in the feet.So, it's comparable to Star Trek's spaceship the Enterprise, with the power core in the middle back, so it's closer to the warp nacelles, rather than in the saucer section (equivalent to the chest). 

See my answer to the first quote. Pretty much applies here as well.

 

And BTW, this question has come up in every topic discussing this in the past and it's generally agreed that as awkward as it is, Karda Nui has to be understood as being in the pelvis, and thus the Southern Continent too, for the above reasons. There is no direct evidence for the SC being in the chest. An analogy to human or Matoran anatomy isn't really evidence, other than of the vaguest sort.Although if I had my 'druthers, that's where it would be, lol.

 

I remember that in old topic discussion it was deduced that Karda Nui must be in the BACK of the robot, not the pelvis. I have never seen anyone else say it must be in the pelvis. This could be an oversight. I find it strange that you seem to consider Matoran and human anatomy nothing but "evidence on the vaguest sort". See my previous comments. I strongly believe that these things deserve more importance in analyzing the MU.

 

Yes, Makuta could just "magic it away" but we can do better than that. :P And with the Ignika, considering what it does if it's destroyed, no way he would risk it really. The whole reason he needed to eject it in the first place rather than just destroying it was because of the countdown and how dangerous it was to him. So, if he was going to use intangibility, he would send it along the same route as this tunnel I'm theorizing anyways, and we're once again left only with evidence that the SC must be farther south than the port the Ignika was shot out of, not with evidence for it being more northernly.] 

 

Your theory on the ejection of the Ignika is a plausible one, and I really don't have much arguments against it. Mainly the placement of Karda Nui itself and the SC. There could still be a hidden pathway for the Ignika to be ejected through if the SC was up north.

 

However, you say that the energy storms would destroy the Ignika. Yes, but if Makuta could make parts of his substance intangible to let the Ignika fly through, couldn't he just as well protect the Ignika from the storms? His powers while in the robot are magical, are they not, lol? :P And doesn't it make sense to get the Ignika out of the body as soon as possible, since it may destroy him? There's reason to use the "straight" path.

 

The rest of the SC arguments I counterargue with the same as before. Did Greg himself draw the MU map, do you know that? Cause you seem to assume that it has to have much credibility because of Greg, yet you point out so many canonical errors there. And I said before, SC doesn't look like a pelvis to me in Greg's map either. Check the other map I linked. It shows how SC could easily be up north. 

 

As for the Karzahni thing, you are making a lot of sense and I really can't counterargue what you have said. Except I don't understand how the movement of the neck would be hindered by a landmass inside. The MU is a fascinating machine, isn't it? :P But your depiction of Karzahni's placement seems logical enough. Again, I was just comparing it to the other map where Karzahni is entirely inside the neck. So my view isn't exactly objective.

 

One last thing: someone posted a picture of early concept art with the whirlpool in Mata Nui's chest. You dismiss it as non-canon because it is early art, but it does prove that the storyteam had an actual heart in mind when they were creating Karda Nui. This connects nicely with my earlier arguments about the intentions of the creators of Bionicle. Why would they change it to be the pelvis later on? They had no logical reason to do so. You base a lot of Greg's map, but as I said, it is full of errors as it is.

 

Phew, that was a lot of text. :P I find this discussion simulating, though, haha. :D I just hope I don't appear too aggressive.


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#24 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 05:08 AM

 

Faber+Files_2001-2008.jpg

 

Unfortunately, this image is probably the biggest point of contention for your map regarding the Southern Continent placement.  This clearly shows the giant whirlpool which fed directly into Karda Nui and through the Southern Continent as being in the upper torso, and not in the hip region.  I know that trying to actually fit all of the islands into the shape of the robot is a giant pain, I've made a map of my own and I had to take serious "artistic license" to make it work.

Actually, that is a very early concept art that is now clearly not canon. There was no giant whirlpool -- that idea was scrapped completely.

 

Notice the only finalized images on that are the image of Mata Nui (island) and Metru Nui -- if you look in the lower right corner, you'll see "06" there. Although the image was only copyrighted for public viewing in 2012, this was done purely for interest sake into the early planning by Faber. The appearances of Voya Nui, Mahri Nui, and Karda Nui are all very early and not quite accurate, especially Karda Nui (no sand). This was before Greg made the canon map linked in the first post. It was just brainstorming for what they would probably do later.

 

I know I used a concept image in my map too, for the giant robot, but only because it closely matches the finalized design in nearly every way. :)

 

So basically, in the early plans, it would have been under the northern continent, or at least this is just as likely as your interpretation -- that image is really of no help in determining canon. I'll grant you that it's more very loose evidence, but since we must choose from Greg's canon map and an early concept that is clearly wrong on several points (as far as later canon goes), I'll go with Greg. :P

 

 

Actually there MUST be a whirlpool, if you let water flow through a hole it'll automaticly form one, that'd also explain why Voya Nui was suddenly sucked back into the hole after it's anchor was broken.

 

Question... how do you get to Metru Nui by boat? How did they go from Mata-Nui to Metru-Nui on a boat? It is right below Mata-Nui, so wouldnt thy basically just fall onto Metru Nui? And if those are domes, you could basically sail a Boat to the edge of the ocean and you would strike a metal wall?

A good one to bring up in a topic seeking to be definitive. :) This has been asked and answered many times but here we go again.

 

After the Rahkshi story in chronological time, they did not go by boat until they reached the edge of the Great Barrier. They carried the boats down a land route from Kini-Nui to the Mangaia (Makuta's lair), and then to the Barrier (which is where the wall of the Metru Nui dome meets the edge of the sea in that dome). Then they put the boats in the water there and crossed the distance to Metru Nui by sea. This path was apparently built in to the giant robot by design.

 

While we're on the subject, the question of how a boat (the walking "Vahki transport" vehicle they named the Lhikan after he died, and used as if it was a boat) could go up to Mata Nui from Metru Nui usually comes up in the same topics, so I'll pre-emptively strike. :P

 

The Great Cataclysm caused many cracks to open throughout the giant robot, and Mata Nui landed on Aqua Magna, which is entirely ocean. In the Toa Metru's first trip up (before the Visorak story, with just six pods, then losing Ahkmou's), they found a river which had been coming down one of those ways. When they reached the top they sealed it so it would stop leaking. (I forget how they got back down but it was a land route; I think another crack that wasn't open to the AM ocean.) And the next time they used airships to fly out one of the sun-holes.

 

They flew through the  SUN HOLES what! I always assumed they used the airships to fly through the tunnels as a safer traveling way. How could they pass the sun holes, first they have that electric protection shield and they are both blocked back then, by a massive amouth of water and a massive amouth of snow.


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#25 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 05:48 AM

I just hope I don't appear too aggressive.

No problemo. I want all possible criticisms to come up in this topic since they're likely to be coming up again and again in future topics and this way I can just link here. (Responding to this out of order since I feel that needs seen in case anyone skims the rest of this. ^_^)

 

First of all, before I start, I would like to link this MU fan map. Personally, I have been using that for about a year now when thinking of the MU. It is by no means any more canon or accurate than yours, but it is a reason why I question some things about your map, especially concerning the placement of Karda Nui and Karzahni. The map I linked shows that it can actually work that way.

Well, thanks for linking it for the record. :) However, just reviewing it now, I see it has most of the problems I've mentioned above. Stretches definition of dome, puts Karzahni in the neck (and not in a dome BTW) and not jutting into Metru Nui's dome plus having a sea route, and the northernmost of the Southern Chain islands are in the pelvis even though they're all confirmed to be in the legs.

 

On that latter point, compare DLB's version with this image showing just the SIs. If you see that image (part of Greg's map), you're unlikely to think the northernmost ones are in the pelvis rather than the legs, no? (And it's hard to see how the legs could move as that part is drawn.) More to the point, here's a quote from the Other Locations page:

 

Energized Protodermis Entity's Island

The northernmost island of the Great Spirit's left leg

This removes any possibility of any of the SIs being in the pelvis.

 

It's a good attempt, though, and yes, pretty sure that's the one I was remembering. That inspired me to try to get an accurate cutaway and overlay domes inside. If I recall from our conversation in the original topic (correct if wrong DLB), it was basically just done offhand to give an idea of it without worrying about the nitty-gritty canon details that I tried to incorporate. :)

 

 find the heartlight fact strong evidence, since anatomy follows certain laws in any universe. By this I mean that if Mata Nui's heart is in the pelvis, the Matoran should have similar anatomy as well.

Why? It all depends on how the GBs would choose to design it. Isn't it reasonable that they could design different things differently? We've seen such a vast array of wildly different things they made.

 

How about the Bohrok having their own simple clockwork brains but also added (and swappable) Krana brains? Should we see a problem with this just because it's different anatomy than Matoran? In that case they're even directly related, since Av-Matoran turn into Bohrok. With Mata Nui, there is no relation other than same creators.

 

 

I agree it's evidence, but not strong enough to outweigh the obvious implication in Greg's actual map. See where I'm coming from there? :)

 

This can easily be rebutted by asking "why does it have to be like that" but remember that the storyteam intentionally created connections between the Bionicle world and the real world, just to make it easier for fans to connect to them.

But also intentionally made differences. That, as a general principle, is of no help in this case. Both similarities and differences are present; this gives us no evidence of which we should rely on in any specific case. This is why making an argument by analogy here just doesn't work. We could talk all day about analogies, but at the end of the day they're only that, and we're still left with Greg's map and much positive evidence for my interpretation.

 

Just like the Matoran. Kanohi are merely items on faces. You and I both have a face, I assume ( :P ) but we might not necessarily have to wear a hat.

I hope you don't mean that too literally considering they need those 'hats' on their faces to stay conscious. :P Of course, there are plenty of species like the Skakdi that don't wear masks... but this just helps the case that there can be different anatomical designs for different types of beings. And Mata Nui is about as different from anything else as you can get (other than the prototype robot).

 

Put it this way. Given that there's engineering benefit to putting it closer to the feet, why on... Spherus Magna... would the GBs ignore that -- keep in mind the scale of this thing; the slightest inefficiency will have incredibly massive consequences -- just to imitate the shape of a tiny being like a Matoran? Of what possible relevance could that be?

 

Why would they differentiate so much from the "normal" anatomy while designing a character?

Maybe you're making a bit much of how different it is? Our own hearts are in the lower side, and to the left. Matoran have heartlights higher up and in the middle. Our hearts are closer to Mata Nui's than Matoran's are.

 

Sci-fi is filled with fictional species having their internal organs (in the torso, mainly) in different places -- it really makes little difference in most cases (although I think our design is probably ideal in the real world). Star Trek often makes reference to internal organs of aliens being different even though outwardly they look human (of course, this is because they tend to use human actors, especially prior to CG tech). As long as it's all in the torso somewhere, it's not very different at all.

 

But didn't you say it yourself that Greg's map has serious canon errors? This might be just one of them.

I tried to follow a rule of only deviating from Greg's design when there was evidence -- related to geography and robot design, not an arbitrary analogy -- from other confirmed canon. For example, the most obvious error in the size of Voya Nui clearly contradicts absolute limitations on it due to the size of the waterfall and basic physics of water, etc. which Bionicle has always portrayed as the same in canon.

 

In this case, there is no canon confirmation of anything that would contradict Greg's portrayal, so it would go against that rule I used. :) The problem with dropping that rule is, then where do we draw the line on rearranging his map entirely to suit our preferences? This is meant as a theory, not what I would personally redesign the robot to be.

 

In Greg's map, there actually seems to be no pelvis at all.

I don't see how you figure. There seems to be a huge pelvis. Look at it again. He's practically Pohatu Mata there! :P

 

But to move the SC to the pelvis, you have to deviate from Greg's map in the sense that you need to shrink the size of the continent.

As I pointed out near the start, Greg's map is clearly not meant to be to scale in terms of the relationship of the sizes of the islands to the distances between them. If it was, the only possible explanation would be a pocket dimension instead of physically being inside the robot.

 

So, since we have to shrink them anyways and increase distances, there is no problem with shrinking the continents too.

 

Notice I very intentionally have all the islands much smaller than the continents, and it works out just fine. In Metru Nui's case it's even confirmed that it's about that tiny compared to the head, as is also depicted in that concept art with the whirlpool linked earlier (that part of that image is canon, as that was established prior to 2006 when it was made). :) So that is clearly not a deviation from anything Greg intended to be taken literally. His map was mainly meant to show the shapes of the lands, the basic differences between their sizes, and their rough arrangements in relationship to each other.

 

And again, I keep coming back to the fact that you're proposing a larger shift than I was comfortable with while objecting to a much smaller one with Karzahni and I must wonder why? I get that you don't like the SC in the pelvis, but why then have any issue with Karzahni being where it's apparently virtually confirmed to be, due to the land-only tunnel? There's no help from some anatomical analogy there -- why shouldn't there be a dome corresponding with the back of the throat underneath the one corresponding with the brain?

 

I strongly believe that these things deserve more importance in analyzing the MU.

More importance than what? That's the question. Why would these fan-made analogies be more important than the apparent intention of Greg's map?

 

However, you say that the energy storms would destroy the Ignika.

Well, I included a caveat. But IMO it's irrelevant whether it would or wouldn't, because Makuta would never risk it. He's not insane. :P

 

Yes, but if Makuta could make parts of his substance intangible to let the Ignika fly through, couldn't he just as well protect the Ignika from the storms?

Who knows, and really, what does it matter?

 

Also, I'm not sure it's wise to be relying on intangibility anyways. If he had that power, why bother with this complicated system of Bohrok to clean the island and then physically force his way up through the broken-up pieces? I'm not arguing that would be better, but if we're going to assume it can be invoked, that at least seems odd.

 

Keep in mind too that Makuta has a power of teleportation, which can be used on targets. He used this one some beings while in control of the giant robot (Lewa and company). So if he wanted to invoke a power and was willing to take risks, I'd think he'd teleport the Ignika rather than sending it through the energy storms that destroy all matter. Yet, it was shown shooting out, not being teleported.

 

Note also Makuta's reaction to Vakama's threat to destroy another Legendary mask in Time Trap. Makuta has a history of being cautious about that.

 

 

And doesn't it make sense to get the Ignika out of the body as soon as possible, since it may destroy him?

Haste makes waste.

 

It's risk it draining all life, or risk it making every particle alive and eat everybody. Better to take the middle road that's less risky either way. Makuta also probably timed things intentionally to make sure he wouldn't make a move until he could do so quickly enough (probably with plenty of time to spare) to avoid the countdown.

 

Think of it like this.

 

You need to get from point A to point B. But there's a nuclear bomb sitting in your way. You need to hurry, and lives are on the line.

 

Do you kick the bomb out of your way, or simply go around?

 

Yesh, it's an analogy. :P Just trying to make it crystal clear how extremely absurd it would be for Makuta to risk the Ignika going through the energy storms. :) The idea could be described fairly as "unthinkable".

 

Did Greg himself draw the MU map, do you know that? Cause you seem to assume that it has to have much credibility because of Greg, yet you point out so many canonical errors there.

Well, I was under the impression that somewhere Greg confirmed it was something he drew, which a professional converted to look cool style-wise. I just skimmed through his blog, where I'd thought it was, and didn't see it, so maybe I was mistaken. If it was in a PM answer, archive's down.

 

However, that doesn't really matter since either way Greg canonized it and therefore it has his stamp of approval either way (so far as it goes).

 

And BTW, the fact that the map presents difficulties in seeing how it could fit with things Greg says is all the more reason to think he approved it, ironically. He's always said he's not that great at figuring out the nitty-gritty of such things. He specifically mentioned the domes and tunnels as being something his mind has difficulty grasping, other than a vague "they exist". Pretty much anyone else I would expect to start with a cutaway of the giant robot and include the domes and tunnels. :P (This isn't meant as a criticism of Greg; it's what he said being honest of himself, and we all have flaws. ^_^)

 

As for the Karzahni thing, you are making a lot of sense and I really can't counterargue what you have said.

Alright. Take the above beating of that dead horse with the appropriate grains of salt. :P

 

Except I don't understand how the movement of the neck would be hindered by a landmass inside.

Pretty simple. Take a plastic tube and fill it with water. Bend. Water bends with. Now fill it with a single piece of rigid rock. Bend (may take some effort ;). Rock breaks.

 

Cue massive bioquakes, and now we have to cut the island in two, making the canon map even more inaccurate. :P And the quakes would continue every time he moved. Bad idea. No?

 

You dismiss it as non-canon because it is early art, but it does prove that the storyteam had an actual heart in mind when they were creating Karda Nui.

FTR, what I meant was that the whirlpool is not part of featured canon story, not necessarily that it's non-canon for sure. It was intended to be something that would actually be featured in the story, but they never found a way to work it in. Also the other details that differ from later finalized versions of all three locations other than Mata/Metru Nui are non-canon too. (They're less extreme in Voya Nui's case, but most obvious with the one in question here, Karda Nui.)

 

It's already confirmed they had a heart in mind, hence the name (Karda comes from a real word, I think Latin, also seen in cardio which is used in medical terminology, meaning heart -- we knew this pretty much instantly when its name was revealed back in 2008, so that's way old news ;)).

 

Why would they change it to be the pelvis later on? They had no logical reason to do so.

Who knows what they / Greg had in mind. For whatever reason, he put it under the Southern Continent, instead of the Northern, which would have instantly eliminated all these issues with it (other than still needing a tunnel route for the Ignika, but that's fine, and the SC's size issue, but if he was thinking about these concerns he would likely have made that be the small one).

 

 

 

 

 

 

Two final points, a bit out of order, because I intended for you to say this so I could make some important points (relevant to many different issues fans have had about the MU):

 

His powers while in the robot are magical, are they not, lol? :P

Yes (in a sense; Greg confirmed it's all "science not understood", but there are obviously powers which can be better compared with magic than simple tech), but we can "magic away" anything. There are many reasons that we should try to theorize physical solutions first -- and especially when a simple one is present, prefer it over some magical hand-waving.

 

First, the domes are physically inside the robot. This is confirmed. Yet, there are pocket dimensions attached to the robot -- City of Silver and Field of Shadows, at the very least (I forget offhand if there are others but I think there was at least one more... anywho). So the magic hand-waving solution to all the map issues would actually have precedent! Yet Greg wants the domes to be physically present. We should pay attention to what that implies, and not just take that for granted, especially if we're going to venture into subjectiveish territory with heart analogies.

 

Why would the domes need to be physically there?

 

Well, the Matoran repair/maintain the robot. Yet it's also canon they spend most of their time on those little islands, not interacting with the biggest and most structural parts of the robot. (True, there's that staff that can heal the whole thing, but that only shows that the staff must be physically there, not the whole population.) The only reason I've thought of so far is my theory about the secret repair robots coming up in buildings that the Matoran maintain (as well as a few important functions being routed to the lands, but again, that only shows that some would need to be there at a time to upkeep these few functions, not the whole population).

 

As soon as the network of tunnels with robots is accepted, it becomes obvious that the Ignika could easily simply be sent through one of these, at the very least. Plus there's the idea that Mata Nui likely ingests space matter for fuel, implying another physical tube (but a power may be more plausible in this case).

 

Second, we should keep in mind that this 'magic' is not some deus ex machina perfect rescuing device -- it is something generated by protodermis molecules in a scientific way which requires the spending of energy. Any use of a power, where a physical solution would suffice, will waste energy.

 

This alone doesn't argue against an intangible straight-up/foreward shooting of the Ignika, but it does establish good reasoning for my underground robot network system, a fuel tunnel (especially that one since we're trying to save fuel), or at least physical wires and maintenance tunnels to repair them for getting the energy out of the generator to the rest (rather than just magically beaming the power wirelessly). And then once anything like that is established, the Ignika will already have a built-in tunnel Makuta can repurpose to send it along. (Plus there's the sanity thing. :P)

 

So basically, any design that is more energy efficient should be preferred over 'magic' (or subjective preferences).

 

 

 

 

 

Edit: Sorry, didn't see your reply, DM.

 

Actually there MUST be a whirlpool, if you let water flow through a hole it'll automaticly form one, that'd also explain why Voya Nui was suddenly sucked back into the hole after it's anchor was broken.

1) Right, but with a tiny hole at great depth, it will most likely not be perceptible. Someone probably realized this when they decided not to feature it (or maybe they just ran out of space).

 

2) I think it was said that it was being pulled by the power of that special super-staff. (Hey, there's some magic, lol!) It couldn't be the waterfall, because VN was floating freely until Mahri Nui broke off much later, and the cord formed to anchor it. It would have been pulled back in immediately if that was the case.

 

They flew through the  SUN HOLES what! I always assumed they used the airships to fly through the tunnels as a safer traveling way. How could they pass the sun holes, first they have that electric protection shield and they are both blocked back then, by a massive amouth of water and a massive amouth of snow.

Another common question -- that's the usual reaction! =D

 

Basically, there are physical eyelids. Although the movie showed both closing, Greg later retconned this so only one managed to close (I forget why the other failed offhand, or if a reason was given). The one under Ga-Wahi closed (if it hadn't... now that would be a whirlpool to remember!). The one under Ko-Wahi was open. Only later did flowing glacial ice cover it (and this prevented any further snowing through it -- any that did come in before this would be minimal, and probably melt on the way down).

 

The airships were also too big to go through any existing cave routes, or through the Mangaia route. The only option was the sun-holes. (NOTE: the Mata Nui Saga image of the airships coming in sideways towards Mata Nui over water are not accurate, although it's possible, as I intend to say in my story, that they flew around the island to look for a good landing place, so the scene is technically possible.)

 

Re: electric protection shield -- I'm not entirely sure what you're referring to, actually. Was it my theory that there is a shield over it? That is only my idea, and only to keep air in. Other materials could pass through.

If you mean the thing which creates the illusion of an eye color, we're not really sure how that works. Most likely it's just an illusion, generated by the same projectors as the sky illusion just below it. I don't recall hearing that it was ever confirmed to offer any protection, but I could be wrong.

 

In my canon-fit story, I borrowed an idea I first came up with for my older fanfics, that there is a colored glasslike "lid" that can also slide aside, which is normally covering them, but there would be a control button somewhere up there to open it, which the Toa would spot and hit once they got up there.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2013 - 06:48 AM.

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#26 Offline bohrokmaster

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 03:58 PM

Can I ask what do the special repair robots do?


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#27 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 04:19 PM

Can I ask what do the special repair robots do?

Keeping in mind their whole existence is just my theory, basically they would travel through this theoretical network of tunnels in the structure of the robot and do the maintenance work on parts of the giant robot that don't lie inside the domes. The Matoran would still be doing work that makes sure maintenance continues, by maintaining automated skyscrapers which in turn repair these robots (which stop off from time to time at the skyscrapers, I theorize).

 

I also theorize that the robots (possibly designed something like superfast hovering trucks with arms, as I imagine them) would have a storage space in them (with a lid), so objects/materials about the size of Kanohi, maybe larger, could be carried to places where old parts need replaced, etc. I imagine the Ignika was placed in one of these underneath the Codrex and delivered to the chest port, which then shot it out.

 

So basically they would be, metaphorically speaking, extensions of the Matoran's reach -- a key part of how they do the maintenance work they were created for without understanding what they were doing. A key evidence by the way is that Rahi were made mainly to keep Matoran away from areas they shouldn't go -- but these areas would need maintenance somehow, so I propose these robots are uninteresting to Rahi (being nonorganic) and can go to those areas.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2013 - 04:23 PM.

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#28 Offline DuplexBeGreat

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 04:44 PM

Speaking of the eyes and the lids covering them, whywhywhywhyWHY did they change color when Teridax took over? There's no reasoning behind it! If it was Teridax's destiny to gain control of a robot one way or another and assist Mata Nui in reforming Spherus Magna (I haven't fully wrapped my head around this idea yet either, but that's not important), then the robot probably wouldn't have considered him "evil" and changed the eye color based on that. The only other option I can think of would be that Teridax did it himself on purpose as a way to show that he took control, but why? At the time there was no one that could see the eyes from the outside.
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#29 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 05:18 PM

Speaking of the eyes and the lids covering them, whywhywhywhyWHY did they change color when Teridax took over? There's no reasoning behind it!

Sure there is. He wanted to symbolize that it was his. It was his way of putting his mark on it. He rules his universe -- surely he could change the color being projected over the sunholes easily.

 

If it was Teridax's destiny to gain control of a robot one way or another and assist Mata Nui in reforming Spherus Magna (I haven't fully wrapped my head around this idea yet either, but that's not important), then the robot probably wouldn't have considered him "evil" and changed the eye color

Having red-colored eyes doesn't make you evil. :P Who knows what he would have done under the original plan -- that's a What If. But he very well may have wanted to show his eye color then too, just to differentiate that he was in charge instead of Mata Nui.

 

The only other option I can think of would be that Teridax did it himself on purpose as a way to show that he took control, but why?

Why not? But he's a very possessive personality; it makes sense he'd want to show that it was his. It's the same reason he turned the star illusions into the shape of the Mask of Shadows. He wanted to show off that he'd done it, after all that work and scheming -- he'd done the impossible, and "it's mine! Muahahahaha!" ;)

 

At the time there was no one that could see the eyes from the outside.

That doesn't really matter, but it's when he happened to do it. (I see no reason to wait until he sees people watching.) But Mata Nui was shot out, and could possibly look back and see it. It could have been, at first, a taunt to him. Plus he would know that once he settled down the issues inside him he would seek Mata Nui and there'd be tons of witnesses then. Yes, witnesses he wanted to all get killed, but history's full of killers who wanted their victims to know things before they died.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2013 - 05:20 PM.

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#30 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 08:15 PM

By the way, one question: The foot hatch has a gradual gravitational change. That makes sense. However, what if Mata Nui, say, raises his arm or some other movement? The tubing doesn't seem long enough for a gradual change, and the second tube, from the Northern Continent leading to the arm, would get so warped it would be crazy to try traveling that route when Mata Nui's arm is raised. The tube is way too short and way too bent and twisted to allow for a gradual change, it seems. The feet only require turning the gravity 90 degrees, but, in the shoulder, it could be turned up to 180, with perilous Escher-style bends in the tube. Because that second tube in the armpit doesn't have a lot of room to gradually bend, it would be like that scene in Inception when the street is bent 90 degrees. No room for a gradual change, just full-on gravitational craziness.


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#31 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 08:47 PM

 

Faber+Files_2001-2008.jpg

 

Unfortunately, this image is probably the biggest point of contention for your map regarding the Southern Continent placement.  This clearly shows the giant whirlpool which fed directly into Karda Nui and through the Southern Continent as being in the upper torso, and not in the hip region.  I know that trying to actually fit all of the islands into the shape of the robot is a giant pain, I've made a map of my own and I had to take serious "artistic license" to make it work.

Actually, that is a very early concept art that is now clearly not canon. There was no giant whirlpool -- that idea was scrapped completely.

 

Notice the only finalized images on that are the image of Mata Nui (island) and Metru Nui -- if you look in the lower right corner, you'll see "06" there. Although the image was only copyrighted for public viewing in 2012, this was done purely for interest sake into the early planning by Faber. The appearances of Voya Nui, Mahri Nui, and Karda Nui are all very early and not quite accurate, especially Karda Nui (no sand). This was before Greg made the canon map linked in the first post. It was just brainstorming for what they would probably do later.

 

I know I used a concept image in my map too, for the giant robot, but only because it closely matches the finalized design in nearly every way. :)

 

So basically, in the early plans, it would have been under the northern continent, or at least this is just as likely as your interpretation -- that image is really of no help in determining canon. I'll grant you that it's more very loose evidence, but since we must choose from Greg's canon map and an early concept that is clearly wrong on several points (as far as later canon goes), I'll go with Greg. :P

 

>Question... how do you get to Metru Nui by boat? How did they go from Mata-Nui to Metru-Nui on a boat? It is right below Mata-Nui, so wouldnt thy basically just fall onto Metru Nui? And if those are domes, you could basically sail a Boat to the edge of the ocean and you would strike a metal wall?

A good one to bring up in a topic seeking to be definitive. :) This has been asked and answered many times but here we go again.

 

After the Rahkshi story in chronological time, they did not go by boat until they reached the edge of the Great Barrier. They carried the boats down a land route from Kini-Nui to the Mangaia (Makuta's lair), and then to the Barrier (which is where the wall of the Metru Nui dome meets the edge of the sea in that dome). Then they put the boats in the water there and crossed the distance to Metru Nui by sea. This path was apparently built in to the giant robot by design.

 

While we're on the subject, the question of how a boat (the walking "Vahki transport" vehicle they named the Lhikan after he died, and used as if it was a boat) could go up to Mata Nui from Metru Nui usually comes up in the same topics, so I'll pre-emptively strike. :P

 

The Great Cataclysm caused many cracks to open throughout the giant robot, and Mata Nui landed on Aqua Magna, which is entirely ocean. In the Toa Metru's first trip up (before the Visorak story, with just six pods, then losing Ahkmou's), they found a river which had been coming down one of those ways. When they reached the top they sealed it so it would stop leaking. (I forget how they got back down but it was a land route; I think another crack that wasn't open to the AM ocean.) And the next time they used airships to fly out one of the sun-holes.

 

Sorry this is a bit off topic again, but what are the sunholes? They are eyes, but where are they on Mata-Nui? WOuldnt a Matoran go... hey loook its an island... then Metru nui would have been found by the matoran?

sorry.... if there is a topic about that, can you link me to it?


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#32 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 08:52 PM

[font="'Trebuchet MS';color:#9E891E;"]what if Mata Nui, say, raises his arm or some other movement? The tubing doesn't seem long enough for a gradual change, and the second tube, from the Northern Continent leading to the arm, would get so warped it would be crazy to try traveling that route when Mata Nui's arm is raised[/font]

I've theorized that there is basically an "inertial dampener" system in place as well as the artificial gravity (probably part of the same system). There could be countless other things that would raise similar issues. Just landing on Aqua Magna during the Great Cataclysm would probably decimate everything and kill everybody without dampeners. So I suspect it's much like on Star Trek -- there are dampeners, but even so some impacts make a bit of the force get past that system. Hence, the Cataclysm was felt as a quake, but far less so than with no such system.

 

Same basic idea would apply in the tubes. I expect (and plan to feature :D) someone could anchor a boat in one of the tubes, and eventually see it radically twist, and would marvel at how they felt nothing. (Other than some wave action due to the water being compressed in places and 'stretched' in others.)

 

[font="'Trebuchet MS';color:#9E891E;"]gravity... could be turned up to 180, with perilous Escher-style bends in the tube[/font]

It could be even worse if there are as I think some parts that only twist, like the tunnel between Artakha and the island south of it, etc. so the arms and legs can angle sideways (as is often shown in canon images of various poses). These could twist more than 180 degrees, possibly.

 

I think the answer is to remember the tiny size of the beings themselves and the uberginormousness of the giant robot. What looks like barely any room to us is actually many miles to the inhabitants. In the case of a twist, I think there are multiple rings even there, so one will bend just 5 degrees, the next five more, etc. adding up to a total that's huge, but crossing it would be so incremental it would be no problem.

 

Also, water would tend to absorb a lot of the effects as well (as long as there were dampeners to aid it and avoid tsunamis).

 

Sorry this is a bit off topic again, but what are the sunholes? They are eyes, but where are they on Mata-Nui? WOuldnt a Matoran go... hey loook its an island... then Metru nui would have been found by the matoran?

One is underwater in Ga-Wahi (closed, and likely now entirely obscured by sediment), and the other is buried under a vast thickness (I think it was said to be miles worth) of ice in Ko-Wahi.

 

They might have noticed them during the first year or so, although more likely they were focused on building the villages to prepare for the end of Makuta's yearlong truce with Vakama. But whatever they might have noticed in the early days was forgotten because the delayed effects of being in the Matoran pods caused the memory wipe later. So when the Toa Mata arrived, the only people on the island with any idea of the sun-holes were the Turaga.

 

And that is on-topic enough for here. :)

 

 

Edit: Re: following post: Yeah, meant Ga-Wahi, lol. Fixed.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 20 2013 - 08:59 PM.

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#33 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 20 2013 - 08:56 PM

One is underwater in Ga-Metru (closed, and likely now entirely obscured by sediment), and the other is buried under a vast thickness (I think it was said to be miles worth) of ice in Ko-Wahi.

Umm, wouldn't that be Ga-Koro or Ga-Wahi(Naho Bay)?

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#34 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 08:17 AM

Ah, now I see that the small island that have been depicted as being in the pelvis in the fan-made map are in the legs in Greg's... I actually never realized that before. :P As for SC, the continent is too big to be a pelvis, hence I thought of it as a stomach (a bloated one). I guess this all boils down to the location of Karda Nui then, since that is the placement that disturbs me, since it's supposed to be a "heart". The placement of SC on your map thus makes plenty of sense and is compatible with Greg's map. If only Karda Nui was underneath the Northern Continent, all this confusion and dismay would be averted on my part. :P

 

As you also pointed out, fanon and canon do not meet in this case. That's maybe why I feel so disappointed about Karda Nui being in the pelvis, because I would never ever place it there myself. But that's got nothing to do with canon.

 

I'm still holding on to the argument, however, that no one in the Lego group planned for Karda Nui to be in the pelvis. The concept art pictures prove that, the terms used when describing "the heart", and the animations where the Ignika is shown coming out of Makuta's chest. You have very strong, logical explanations for how KN could be in the pelvis and the mask still coming out of the chest, but there's no doubt that Greg didn't really put much effort in his map. I always thought that giving the story completely into Greg's hands in the later years was a disgrace to a magnificent story that had been initially created by a professional group, rather than an individual. But again, this is about my opinion, not the facts at hand. But in short: Greg canonized Karda Nui being in the pelvis accidentally.

 

Conclusion: Your map is a more canon version of the MU than the fan map that I posted. Thus I accept it as that, no matter how much I hate the idea of Karda Nui being in the pelvis. :P That's why I turn to fanon in these cases. The story from 2007 onward was very hastily made. At least I can still keep the world of Bionicle the way I like it in my head. Your map does have a place in my mind, however, as the explanations for why Artakha managed to remain a secret, as well as all the sea routes described.

 

Good job. :)


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#35 Offline DarkLordBane154

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 10:54 AM

http://s278.photobuc...html?sort=6&o=0

 

Here is most current most up-to-date version of my map, I just uploaded it a few minutes ago.

 

Basically when considering and making my map, I came to the conclusion that some things that Greg has said in the past and some depictions of the MU are just flat out wrong (for my intents and purposes).  I wanted to be as cannon as possible, but also make the most sense, so when I had to, I took my own ideas into consideration, like the placement and sizes of the islands for example.  I also added several small islands just for storyline and practical purposes, such as the island of the southwest coast of Metru Nui where Toa Naho is said to have swam to for aid.  I also added the small wooded island off the coast of the Southern Continent where Botar dropped the weapons.  Some of the islands I also added just because I wanted a small island there, and I added four islands in the stomach area tube that connects the torso with the pelvis.  This was done because I felt that in order to travel across that great distance, which looks to be about 6-7 hundred miles, boats would need a place to resupply, especially since the Matoran aren't seen to have big sailing ships like we had to cross the Atlantic.  I tried to make this map make as much sense as possible, even including geography and what not.  I have the file made in photoshop and I have a ton of different layers that I can turn on an off to peel away parts of the MU to see places such as Karda Nui, the seabed, and the robot above and Mata Nui.  I also have a ton of detail inside of the universe like zones of control for the Barraki and the Makuta, as well as markers to designate where each individual village and city is as well as fortresses and even most recently I made a detailed diagram of all trade routes throughout the universe and where the ports are on each island.  It's all very cool and it's something that I've been added to gradual over the course of several years.  I always look for new features to add to it, so suggestions are always welcome.  I've also most recently made a more accurate 3D looking layers of the robot itself as well as my completely own designed prototype robot that looks about as good as the 3D render of the Mata Nui robot that you used for your own map.

 

Edit: I also agreed with some of the things that ToaTapio Nuva said.  To me the faber artwork clearly showcases that the SC and Karda Nui were meant to be in the chest, like a real heart, and virtually everything that Greg has said has supported that.  In my opinion, the "official" map of the MU has to be taken with a grain of salt, because I think it was made without much consideration, or without knowledge that there was a huge gaping hollow region in the stomach area.  So basically I moved mine around so that everything made the most sense, and I combined the map that we were given with what information we have been given about the universe plus what initial artwork we have seen which was made by a professional artist.  Essentially I tried to balance out everything equally with how it should be, how it was intended to be, and the little map that we actually got.


Edited by DarkLordBane154, Mar 21 2013 - 11:04 AM.

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#36 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 01:41 PM

I'd like to make something clear (to the previous two posts, before I reply to specifics).

 

It does remain hard to believe the SC could be very big if it's in the lower torso. Some of the portrayals show it as actually incredibly tiny. The comic ones usually show it as large enough, though, and the chest as smaller. There are several other CG versions that agree with this or come close. It you take those as most canon, and move the SC up into the torso, it really wouldn't be any bigger, because you still have to shrink it. Therefore, for the most part, I don't think doing that would really help anyways.

 

However, about half of the Mata Nui saga images show the pelvis as much smaller than the ones I'm using. If you take those ones instead, then moving the SC up to the chest does make sense. (Note though that the Mata Nui Saga has many clearly noncanon things in its art, especially using Bota Magna as the moon that hit Makuta when it was a fragment of Aqua Magna, so these portrayals should be taken with a grain of salt... plus the art varies on this point throughout the series.)

 

Honestly, if Greg were to say "Yes, it should be moved up to the chest, despite the old map," I'd actually be happier. :P As it is, you really could go either way.

 

So, in that sense, my map is basically an attempt to see what it would look like if we take the opposite approach of DLB's map. Since the move-up theory has been tried, I thought it was important to try the alternative. My theory isn't necessarily more definitive, but I do think that (unfortunately :P) it has more evidence. Regardless, at least it shows visually how it might be, even if DLB's interpretation is right. (If I were to have any say in designing the canon portrayal I'd really root for it being moved up to the chest.)

 

Does that help? :)

 

BTW, to be as complete as possible, here's two more bits of evidence that actually help the in-the-chest case:

 

1) The fact that the northern civilizations (including the Southern Continent and Daxia) seem to basically ignore the Southern Islands. If there was such a big distance between the two groups of lands, that would make a lot of sense (although I've given an idea already earlier that would help make this unneeded).

 

2) Been going through old images again, and I noticed that an image of the secret GB lab on Bara Magna includes a line pointing to the same spot as that whirlpool in that prototype image. I can't make out the label at the end of the line, but it wouldn't fit Karda Nui. It may be random gibberish. Still, it's the only such line so it helps show that there's something important there. Of course, it could simply be pointing to that port. :shrugs:

 

 

On a related note, the concept art version of that scene ironically shows the hugest pelvis of any interpretation, lol. That's clearly non-canon, but some of the comic portrayals actually come close to this. And note that on the canon version linked above, the pelvis and chest size ratio is closer so moving the SC up wouldn't enable it to be much bigger.

 

So, having considered everything, I think that the moving-up theory would have been better, but when you factor the fact that this would shrink it anyways, there's really not much difference. Either way, everything must be shrunk and distances between them increased (or between some, anyways). The only remaining issue is that it feels awkward to we humans to have Karda Nui specifically in the pelvis, and we'd probably all prefer it in the chest. Oh well. :P

 

And... I think considering your guys' good points (though I was leaning this way anyways), I will refrain from being specific in my canon-fit story either way on this issue. I'll probably link to this topic in an appendix (while of course making it clear it's just a theory), but in the story I think it would be better to leave it undefined so you could interpret the SC / KN as in the chest. :) If that's any consolation at all. XD

 

 

 

Now, to some specifics. 

giving the story completely into Greg's hands in the later years

I really don't wanna get into that much as this isn't a complaint topic but a theory topic, just noting that Greg actually opened it up near the end to fan involvement as with the Story Squad I was part of. :) And it was never given completely into his hands anyways, which is part of the reason the movie had some issues, Mata Nui Saga contradicted the canon sometimes, etc. I don't think it's fair to blame these issues on any person (though Greg does admit to having difficulty with this subject of geography) -- the real problem was lack of communication, so what they did put out was less unified.

 

Of course, that's how the classic Bionicle was too. They'd gotten much better at unity in design later, but as the end brought an unexpected crunch time, it was somewhat lost (and maybe it's just unrealistic to expect otherwise).

 

Anywho, back on topic...

 

 

 

But in short: Greg canonized Karda Nui being in the pelvis accidentally.

That does seem reasonable, yeah.

 

 

http://s278.photobuc...html?sort=6&o=0

 

Here is most current most up-to-date version of my map, I just uploaded it a few minutes ago.

Cool! Thanks.

 

I do see a few issues right off the bat with this.

 

As said earlier, it's confirmed all the Southern Islands are in the legs, not the pelvis. I know you intentionally deviated from Greg's statements, but if we think this through, making the SIs even farther away could actually help your case. I'm undecided on which I like better, but the idea that something would be in the pelvis would make sense too. For the sake of your map (ignoring mine for a moment), the suggestion I'd make would be to simply move the two lower islands you have in the pelvis down to the legs, and put the right and left northernmost ones a bit wider out so they're clearly in the joints that connect the legs to the pelvis, not in the pelvis itself.

 

As you have it now, actually, they're sort of halfway in the pelvis and halfway in the joints, which IMO should be impossible. They would be snapped in half if he tried to bend his legs. So moving them out to be clearly in the joints (in their own domes) would make more sense anyways.

 

For my map, I wanted to stick as close as possible to the statement that they're all in the legs, and the number of islands works out so it's symmetrical, but with Daxia being in one of two domes in the joints. Of course, this leaves an issue still on my map, indicated by the question marks in two domes -- would there really be empty domes like that? Your interpretation is stronger on that point. So once again, I think there's no far-and-away winner on this specific subject.

 

A big (but easily fixable) issue on your map is that you moved Zakaz more northernly than Xia. I know I moved it too (though that part of my theory is not essential), but notice this quote from Pridak (Barraki page):

 

"Once we six were rulers of the surface world, from Xia to the Southern Islands."

That clearly states that Xia is the most northernly other than Karzahni and Metru Nui (which the Barraki are confirmed to have never ruled).

 

 

Your interpretation still way stretches the definition of "dome" in the chest especially. I wouldn't so much object to oval "domes" in the limbs (though, why not just use separate domes for those? the math of them works out so the arms at least would be symmetrical, and the legs can be interpreted that way as I did). But the way you have the chest, there's almost no room for any structural support. That thing would collapse like an empty eggshell at the first punch in the final battle. :P

 

A similar problem with the size of most of the other domes. I'd shrink all of them at least a little so there's plenty of gray (non-dome robot structure and machinery) around them.

 

Also, I think it might be possible to get away with making all the chest stuff be in a dome. Keep the NC off to the left and put all the chest islands to the right, just having Xia poke a little above the NC, and you could get away with it without much shrinking the continents. That I think would be most plausible with canon.

 

 

There's especially no room for the dome you put in the hands. IMO there shouldn't be a dome in the flat hand itself; the southernmost of the arm islands should be in the wrist joint.

 

 

And finally, the problem about Karzahni's dome -- it needs moved up to poke into Metru Nui's dome, and then its southernmost point brought up inside the head. And it should be given its own dome. Almost certainly too, the tunnel between the two should have just land, not water.

 

 

Basically when considering and making my map, I came to the conclusion that some things that Greg has said in the past and some depictions of the MU are just flat out wrong (for my intents and purposes).  I wanted to be as cannon as possible, but also make the most sense, so when I had to, I took my own ideas into consideration, like the placement and sizes of the islands for example.

Well, that's fair, but as explained above there are some points that would make more sense. In general (for a theory anyways) shouldn't we stick to everything we can find a way to? If we ignore some canon facts, it becomes arbitrary and we could just ignore anything. (Again, I understand yours may not be completely a theory, in favor of fan fiction, though -- just trying to express where I was coming from in this theory, and maybe the SC-in-chest theory could benefit from an attempt to reconcile all other canon facts with it too. :))

 

I also added several small islands just for storyline and practical purposes

These seem reasonable to me. Esp. for a more fanon-based map. I restrained myself from adding any myself (mainly because their locations are hard to determine in most cases, or they could be too small to see) but it's known there would be many of them.

 

 

This was done because I felt that in order to travel across that great distance, which looks to be about 6-7 hundred miles, boats would need a place to resupply, especially since the Matoran aren't seen to have big sailing ships like we had to cross the Atlantic.

I like that idea a lot. Also, it helps answer what I brought up before about having basically nothing in the lower torso. They wouldn't show up on the mapping scheme I used which intentionally didn't try to define where all the tiny islands are, but at least travelers could stop off somewhere, yeah.

 

 

To me the faber artwork clearly showcases that the SC and Karda Nui were meant to be in the chest, like a real heart, and virtually everything that Greg has said has supported that.

Hm... could you clarify what you mean by that last part here? I'm not aware of Greg saying anything that would be evidence for it over it being in the lower torso. Most things he say aren't relevant to that question (so don't oppose it), but that's not quite the same as supporting it. Is there anything Greg said that I'm forgetting / not aware of that supports it being in the chest over the pelvis?


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 21 2013 - 05:15 PM.

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#37 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 02:14 PM

I think that the SC is located in the torso but I had my doubts like some of you after checking the map in the Makuta's guide to the universe, if any of you even bothered to check that.
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#38 Offline bohrokmaster

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 03:48 PM

I think that the SC is located in the torso but I had my doubts like some of you after checking the map in the Makuta's guide to the universe, if any of you even bothered to check that.

 I don't mean to be rude with you but I have seen the matoran universe map from Makuta's guide to the universe book. My question for Bonesii: If the Mata Nui robot starts to move or walk then would the islands inside/within the robot create an earthquake? :sadlike:


Edited by bohrokmaster, Mar 21 2013 - 03:51 PM.

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#39 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 05:25 PM

I think that the SC is located in the torso but I had my doubts like some of you after checking the map in the Makuta's guide to the universe, if any of you even bothered to check that.

I was under the impression that was the map we've been talking about? I don't have that book, but BS01's file page for the one we keep calling "Greg's map" cites Makuta's Guide to the Universe at the top. See here. And the page for that book confirms it, so... If there's a different map, I'd love to know about it, but pretty sure there isn't. Also, did you mean chest, or pelvis? Both are in the torso (the torso is everything besides limbs and head); that's not debatable. (I assume it was a typo. :)

My question for Bonesii: If the Mata Nui robot starts to move or walk then would the islands inside/within the robot create an earthquake? :sadlike:

I answered this in a previous post in here; I presume there are "inertial dampeners" like in Star Trek. :) See earlier post for more detail.


Edited by bonesiii, Mar 21 2013 - 05:26 PM.

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#40 Offline Dragonstar7

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Posted Mar 21 2013 - 06:55 PM

I meant chest. My mind got all messed up from school today. :P And I kind of skimmed over the last few posts and focused on the fan made maps, not about the guide map.


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