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Toa Power Levels


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#1 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:08 PM

So, I was wondering again (heh, you know me, always asking questions), are all Toa equal in power? Save the Toa Nuva and Tahu.

 

Also, why were the Toa Mata made into Toa Nuva? 

One more thing, in a Greg F question, it said that now that Tahu had these powers, he would stand a very good chance against a Makuta. But wouldn't he, as a Toa Nuva, already be able to stand near close to a Makuta?

 


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                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#2 Offline Jebraltar

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:25 PM

I'll try to answer those. 

- Maybe, Varies in the way they utilize their powers and expirience.

- The Toa Mata needed to upgrade to much more powerful forms for their tasks.

- Takanuva (or a Toa of light) was the Legend's prediction of Makuta's downfall. And everyone believed it.


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#3 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:31 PM

1. Their inner reserves should more or less be the same. It's how they utilize their powers that determines their "true" power.

2. Jebraltar answered that.

3. If a Toa Nuva and a Makuta were to go head to head, no holds barred, the Makuta would curbstomp the Nuva. Makuta have the elemental power of shadow, access to kanohi, and access to 42 other powers that when used to their fullest potentially could kill even the strongest of toa simply due to the sheer variety of them. When Tahu used the Golden armor, he absorbed the essences of the kraata present at the battle, and gained an unknown amount of those 42 powers. Tahu stands a better chance not because of sheer power, but because he has access to maybe 10 more powers than a normal toa.


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#4 Offline Watcher on the Walls

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:47 PM

1. In another topic, someone(I think bones) said that Toa couldn't really be compared to each other in terms of power. Like, each of them are more and less powerful in different ways. But if you do it with two Toa of the same element, then it would probably be the same.2. Answered3. Maybe, but the Golden armor also amplified his elemental powers, as described in Journey's End, which was the result of all the Rahkshi dead.
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#5 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:54 PM

Well in the Final Battle (Legends 9? IDK which number) the Toa Nuva sure gave the Makuta of Karda Nui a run for their money.


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#6 Offline Aiwendil

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 08:57 PM

ah, but the Makuta simply wanted them to awaken the Great Spirit. if they wanted them dead, they would be.


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#7 Offline Watcher on the Walls

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:20 PM

ah, but the Makuta simply wanted them to awaken the Great Spirit. if they wanted them dead, they would be.

To add more to that, Teridax told them to, unknowing his true intentions. If they did know his true intentions, then they would kill the Nuva on the spot.

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#8 Offline AdaptingChaos

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:21 PM

OVER NINE THOUSAND.

Lol :D Nice post!

1)Anyways I think that it depends on the element

2)Answered

3)That I am unsure of, but im pretty sure he is able to do even more things with the golden armor than he was able to do as a Toa Nuva.


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#9 Offline -Jaller-

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:31 PM

1. Depending on experience and skill. 2. Destiny. This gave them more power to battle the more powerful villans they were to engage. 3. Tahu's armor is more desigined for battling shadow like beings. This would give him an edge on Makuta who basically is just shadow. His Nuva form did not have Tahu's current armor, meaning he would not have an advantedge fighting Makuta.
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#10 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:34 PM

ah, but the Makuta simply wanted them to awaken the Great Spirit. if they wanted them dead, they would be.

They're plan was also to defeat the Toa and unlock it themselves. They could have done it much more certainly than hoping the Toa would do it.


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#11 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:37 PM

Depends on how you define "powerful," really. Raw power? Skill? Political leverage? Just plain "who would win?"All Toa have approximately the same reserves of Elemental Energy, and can use the same Kanohi. However, Toa with training are infinitely more dangerous than Toa without. Not only are trained and experienced Toa more effective fighters, they can more efficiently ration their Elemental Energy - where it might take a newly-transformed Nokama a lot of EE to summon a basic jet of water, Helryx could effortlessly wash an army away using the same amount of energy.Out-of-story? So Lego could sell new versions of the heroes. :P In-story, it was their destiny. We don't know why - possibly another Great Being failsafe.Yes, but no. Makuta have much more raw power available than even Toa Nuva, but even a novice Toa Team (or, really, a lone Matoran) could beat a Makuta given the right situation. (See the Metru versus Teridax in 2004 for a prime example.)

Edited by Meta-Mind, Apr 03 2013 - 09:38 PM.

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#12 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:39 PM

but six Makuta?


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#13 Offline Watcher on the Walls

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:44 PM

Probably not, but maybe if the Nuva teamed up plus Tahu with Golden armor would stand a really good chance.
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#14 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 09:47 PM

Well, we've never seen a Makuta go all out in the story. Most of the time, they completely forget about 30 or so of their powers.
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#15 Offline DuplexBeGreat

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 10:24 PM

That, and "all out" would just be using multiple powers in rapid succession. If they can't use multiple ones at the same time, which they can't, it drastically lowers the "maximum power" they could theoretically achieve.
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#16 Online bonesiii

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Posted Apr 03 2013 - 10:41 PM

So, I was wondering again (heh, you know me, always asking questions), are all Toa equal in power? Save the Toa Nuva and Tahu.

Depends on what kind of power is in question. In capacity of Elemental Energy, they're all the same. However, in terms of the end result of what they do, more learned Toa will be better at it, and you could call that "powerful" in a sense. See this quote from the Toa page of BS01:

 

Proficiency with an element is a learned skill, with more experienced Toa able to perform a wide range of tasks.

Some have theorized that as a Toa gains skill, their EE might recharge faster, but this is not confirmed as far as I know.

 

Also, why were the Toa Mata made into Toa Nuva?

The official answer is essentially that there is a reason contained within destiny, which is apparently not knowable beforehand (same with almost any transformation by EP, other than a few reliable results like Kraata becoming Rahkshi armor).

 

As for why the EP tubes were there, I believe Greg originally said it was a death trap, and it may have been revealed who set it, but I've recently been unable to find info on this on BS01, not sure if I'm remembering wrong or what. I think (but don't quote me on it) that it was the Order -- a trap for anyone not destined, with the justification that a good guy will be more likely to be destined, etc. (So I guess they were assuming Kraata weren't going to take on the Bahrag. :P)

 

As for why that destiny, the easy answer would be that it was seen as needed to succeed at their Toa destiny. Who saw that is the main question, or it could have been merely a contingency, etc.

 

One more thing, in a Greg F question, it said that now that Tahu had these powers, he would stand a very good chance against a Makuta. But wouldn't he, as a Toa Nuva, already be able to stand near close to a Makuta?

Only slightly. Being a Nuva has these benefits -- slightly better mask power, ability to share it, higher capacity of EE, and greater control over the element. None of those things approaches a Makuta in power level other than slightly. However, multiple Toa Nuva working together would be much more effective than the same number of normal Toa, due to the ability to share all their mask powers with each other at once. But as a Nuva alone, no.

 

One clarification: Makuta aren't as powerful as they might seem, though, since they can only use one Rahkshi power at a time.

 

But they seem to have a virtually unlimited energy source for this, and have many other advantages as antidermis, plus the protosteel armor, etc. They can use any number of powers to fit a wider variety of situations, and that's the biggest factor in their favor. They're not as susceptible to the kind of situational pressures that I've described before as other beings. Put most beings of power in the wrong situation (control over stone on boats on the ocean for example, against a Ga-Toa), and they'll simply be at the disadvantage. But even with any Toa in their most opportune situation, a Makuta will have multiple options to match that situation (including Adaptation itself).

 

Still, it's possible a Makuta might find themselves in some kind of situation where a single Toa like Tahu might have enough of... not really an advantage but a level playing field to have a fighting chance, even in a no-holds-barred situation. Perhaps a Toa of Fire would be one of the best -- they could conceivable melt a hole in the armor and then burn the antidermis (one of just a few ways to kill a Makuta) -- but only enough to severely weaken (something like this may have happened to Teridax in the past, when he was weakened down to Turaga-Dume-size). Obviously, the Makuta feared Toa of Iron for a similar reason, which is why they were slaughtering them.


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#17 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 05:30 AM

ah, but the Makuta simply wanted them to awaken the Great Spirit. if they wanted them dead, they would be.

They're plan was also to defeat the Toa and unlock it themselves. They could have done it much more certainly than hoping the Toa would do it.
They would be able to unlock the Codrex yes, but then they'd be pretty stuck there since the only way of awakening mr Mata Nui was with the drainage of power from the six Mata Toa or with the Mask of Life and neither of those would be in their possesion. Also you can't compare to Karda-Makuta, they were all weakened except Mutran, some of tem were blind othersMutated and had most some of their Kraata powers, also the Nuva had Enhanced Twilight Takanuva with them, who coumd be considered the best being ever to fight the Makuta

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#18 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 09:55 AM

So, I was wondering again (heh, you know me, always asking questions), are all Toa equal in power? Save the Toa Nuva and Tahu.

 

Also, why were the Toa Mata made into Toa Nuva? 

One more thing, in a Greg F question, it said that now that Tahu had these powers, he would stand a very good chance against a Makuta. But wouldn't he, as a Toa Nuva, already be able to stand near close to a Makuta?

 

1) For the most part, yes. More experienced Toa will be essentially more powerful because they can manage their EE reserves better, but Toa learn to do that as they gain experience.

2) They fell into energized protodermis and were destined to transform. That's really all there is to it.

3) No, not really. Toa Nuva are more powerful than standard Toa with their better mask powers and control of their element, but Tahu Nuva still has only two powers (Fire and Shielding) as opposed to the Makuta's 44 powers (Shadow element, mask, 42 Kraata powers). Now that Tahu has control over a significant number of Kraata powers, he could easily pose a severe risk to a Makuta - we know he has heat vision, which could carve open a Makuta's armor. There are also plenty of Kraata powers like Laser Vision, Plasma, Disintegration, Fragmentation, and Gravity that could do this, although we don't know if Tahu has any of those. Additionally, Tahu might have the very valuable Makuta powers of Quick healing, Density control, Accuracy, Limited invulnerability, and Dodge. Simply put, the odds of Tahu beating a Makuta now are much more even than before because he has more valuable powers for beating Makuta.

 

-TN05


Edited by Toa Nidhiki05, Apr 04 2013 - 10:02 AM.

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#19 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 06:09 PM

Well Tahu already had heat vision without the Rahkshi , right? I read someone say it was already an ability of the element of fire (which is really just the element of heat)? 


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                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#20 Online bonesiii

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 06:14 PM

Well Tahu already had heat vision without the Rahkshi , right? I read someone say it was already an ability of the element of fire (which is really just the element of heat)? 

I suppose if he really wanted to he could make heat come out of his eyes, but why would he when he can just do that out of his hands? Also, Heat Vision the power itself causes the eyes to stop working, which is a rule in that specific power. Tahu would not need to do that. So I'd consider it a mix of a subpower of Fire (a beam of heat) and a non-elemental rule (that the beam must originate close enough to the eyes to temporarily overload them or however that works, possibly with a delayed included healing power).


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#21 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 07:06 PM

So then wouldn't a Toa of Fire pose a particular threat to the Makuta, if his bolts of Fire could cut open their armor and make them leak?

 

(We saw that happen in The Final Battle, Antroz got hit by a beam of... was it ice? I dont remember what element hit him, but it cut him open, but it didnt take him out of the fight that long.)


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                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#22 Offline Last Son Amakusa

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 07:31 PM

Fire doesn't cut things open. Iron or stone does that. Fire melts stuff. But Makuta armor is made of protosteel; hard to melt.

 

And plus, the Makuta could always crush the toa before they did too much damage. Maybe send them flying with magnetism. Or vaporize them with plasma. Or use so much fear on them that they physically freeze. Or maybe blow out their audio receptors using a power scream. Or blow them apart with fragmentation. 25+ of the Makuta powers could kill a toa with one god shot.


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#23 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 08:18 PM

well actually, that would be like asking a Tahnok to incinerate a Toa in one shot. The Makuta have 42 powers, but limited ranges of all of them. They are not particularly menacing with any one of their elements, but the combination of the 43 (mask + elements, lets not forget that shadow is one of their rahkshi powers TN05) is what gives them the edge. 

 

And incinerating them with plasma might seem possible, but its not very hard to avoid. A Toa of water could thrust a wall of water in front of it that would weaken it so much as to make it too cool to be plasma. A Toa of Ice could do the same, Toa of Stone, Earth... Toa of Plasma could  just redirect the blast. Toa of Fire could drain the beam of its heat. What really might pose a threat would be the magnetism and gravity. They couldn't hit em with enough magnetism to flatten them, but they could pin them while they go to slice their heads off. Sonics is one of those too. But deafening the Toa with one huge blast? The Kohrak-Kal exerted what seemed to be a large amount of energy on Lewa Nuva, and defeated him, but did not damage his hearing. The Makuta have even a less great power of Sonics than a Kohrak Kal (as a Kohrak-Kal is described by Greg as having a wide range of sonic powers. Makuta are described as having a very limited manipulation over their Rahkshi powers, save shadow). They could stun the Toa with a power scream, but not blow out their ears. Fear could also stun a Toa. Actually, fear could arguably kill a novice Toa. But fear isn't a physical force, and a well meditated Toa could overcome it. Let's see... what else... 

 

Well, anyways, my point is that Makuta may have an advantage through their array of powers, but they have only a mediocre control over their powers. 


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#24 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 09:07 PM

well actually, that would be like asking a Tahnok to incinerate a Toa in one shot. The Makuta have 42 powers, but limited ranges of all of them. They are not particularly menacing with any one of their elements, but the combination of the 43 (mask + elements, lets not forget that shadow is one of their rahkshi powers TN05) is what gives them the edge. 

 

And incinerating them with plasma might seem possible, but its not very hard to avoid. A Toa of water could thrust a wall of water in front of it that would weaken it so much as to make it too cool to be plasma. A Toa of Ice could do the same, Toa of Stone, Earth... Toa of Plasma could  just redirect the blast. Toa of Fire could drain the beam of its heat. What really might pose a threat would be the magnetism and gravity. They couldn't hit em with enough magnetism to flatten them, but they could pin them while they go to slice their heads off. Sonics is one of those too. But deafening the Toa with one huge blast? The Kohrak-Kal exerted what seemed to be a large amount of energy on Lewa Nuva, and defeated him, but did not damage his hearing. The Makuta have even a less great power of Sonics than a Kohrak Kal (as a Kohrak-Kal is described by Greg as having a wide range of sonic powers. Makuta are described as having a very limited manipulation over their Rahkshi powers, save shadow). They could stun the Toa with a power scream, but not blow out their ears. Fear could also stun a Toa. Actually, fear could arguably kill a novice Toa. But fear isn't a physical force, and a well meditated Toa could overcome it. Let's see... what else... 

 

Well, anyways, my point is that Makuta may have an advantage through their array of powers, but they have only a mediocre control over their powers. 

 

My impression is that Makuta don't have "mediocre" control over their powers, they just choose to focus on a narrow range of powers because they would have trouble mastering them all. A prime "specialty" is shadow like Teridax, but Mutran chose to specialize in Mutation so much he had a mask of it. They also seem to use offensive powers like chain lightning a lot, and Teridax did a lot of shapeshifting. (Frankly, Teridax is better at the latter than Matau, arguably.) So I think it depends on which Makuta, which power, and how much level of experience.   


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#25 Offline Meta-Mind

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 09:17 PM

Clearing up a misconception here: Shadow is not one of the Makuta's Rahkshi powers. It's an elemental ability which is distinct from their Rahkshi powers, which they enhanced by purging their inner Light. The power you're thinking of is Darkness, which is a redundant sub-power chosen as a Rahkshi ability.

Edited by Meta-Mind, Apr 04 2013 - 09:17 PM.

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#26 Online bonesiii

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Posted Apr 04 2013 - 10:29 PM

I think what you're saying is that each Makuta had only the equivalent of "Toa" level control over their powers, while Tahu has Nuva-level control?

 

That's true, but Makuta can use three powers at once -- Mask + Shadow + 1 Rahkshi power -- while Tahu can only use two -- Mask + Fire. And the Makuta can simply choose one that's going to more instantly incapacitate him, like Chain Lightning. So it's hard to see how even with Nuva ability he would realistically stand much of a chance against one that wasn't holding back as the Karda Nui ones were or Teridax was in 2001, etc.


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#27 Offline Dual Cee

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Posted Apr 05 2013 - 04:15 AM

I think what you're saying is that each Makuta had only the equivalent of "Toa" level control over their powers, while Tahu has Nuva-level control? That's true, but Makuta can use three powers at once -- Mask + Shadow + 1 Rahkshi power -- while Tahu can only use two -- Mask + Fire. And the Makuta can simply choose one that's going to more instantly incapacitate him, like Chain Lightning. So it's hard to see how even with Nuva ability he would realistically stand much of a chance against one that wasn't holding back as the Karda Nui ones were or Teridax was in 2001, etc.

In addition to the 3 normal powers the Makuta also had their powers-due knowledge, which is not to underestimate, also remember the Karda were weakened due blindness or mutation. Also we've seen two occasions of Makuta at their best, Teridax vs Hagah and The battle at the light barriee. The battle with the Hagah was won due the incredible experience they owned, and the battle of the Light Barriers was clearly lost(Tanma was dead after a few seconds already) if it was not for Matoro's sacrifise

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#28 Offline Katuko

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Posted Apr 05 2013 - 09:40 AM

That, and "all out" would just be using multiple powers in rapid succession. If they can't use multiple ones at the same time, which they can't, it drastically lowers the "maximum power" they could theoretically achieve.

Greg has confirmed that only one power can be active at a time. I don't remember if he specified the Makuta's elemental Shadow as falling under that rule, but at least they can not use both Heat Resistance and Electricity at once, for example. 

As for why the EP tubes were there, I believe Greg originally said it was a death trap, and it may have been revealed who set it, but I've recently been unable to find info on this on BS01, not sure if I'm remembering wrong or what. I think (but don't quote me on it) that it was the Order -- a trap for anyone not destined, with the justification that a good guy will be more likely to be destined, etc. (So I guess they were assuming Kraata weren't going to take on the Bahrag. :P)

I took it that the Bahrag had the EP available for making stuff like the Bohrok-Kal, and that when they were defeated they just went "haha screw you" and tried to take the Toa down with them as a last act of desperation. They believed that they were just doing their vital mission, after all, and that the Toa before them were evil for trying to stop them. 

But they seem to have a virtually unlimited energy source for this, and have many other advantages as antidermis, plus the protosteel armor, etc. They can use any number of powers to fit a wider variety of situations, and that's the biggest factor in their favor. They're not as susceptible to the kind of situational pressures that I've described before as other beings. Put most beings of power in the wrong situation (control over stone on boats on the ocean for example, against a Ga-Toa), and they'll simply be at the disadvantage. But even with any Toa in their most opportune situation, a Makuta will have multiple options to match that situation (including Adaptation itself).

This is really the important part. A Toa of Iron might be able to rip a Makuta apart easily, and a Toa of Fire or Plasma can then kill the antidermis. Kojol died this exact way in Dark Mirror, so evidently they are a huge threat. In the same serial, Ahkmou got killed by Kopaka flash-freezing him, followed by Onua shattering the Matoran. Such a combination might be able to crack protosteel too. Now, disintegration of their armor will stop a Makuta very quickly, but most Toa simply don't have powers that work slicing through protosteel like that. And while they desperately try to stop the juggernaut before them, the Makuta can pick one of 40+ powers to gain the advantage. Send some electric current through a Ga-Toa's attack, or use Gravity to hold up against a tornado. Tahu's shielding has been broken by Gravity before, so a Makuta would be able to circumvent it as well. They could also just teleport and stab him in the back before he could react.Frankly, the Toa Nuva were at a severe disadvantage in Karda Nui. Their flight came from their armor, and armor can be broken by Disintegration or Molecular Disruption. Lewa had his Miru as a backup, but that falls to Gravity. Tahu's shield is powerful, but can still be avoided with the right powers. Gali's mask was useless when she could not enter the dangerous waters, and especially against foes that cannot be choked and does not use water attacks themselves. Onua had only mud to work with at the swamp floor, and his Mask of Strength isn't all that useful when he's carrying a projectile weapon and is being attacked by foes that do not need melee range to be effective. Pohatu had one of the best setups with his Mask of Speed plus a Midak Skyblaster, but his element is naturally a bit more limited in the air. Throwing chunks is nice (and he did) but unlike light blasts the Makuta can resist a lot of rocks. 

(something like this may have happened to Teridax in the past, when he was weakened down to Turaga-Dume-size). Obviously, the Makuta feared Toa of Iron for a similar reason, which is why they were slaughtering them.

I got the impression that Teridax willingly shrunk himself to that size in order to the whole masquerade. When going back to his bigger form with wings, he absorbed the beings nearby to grow mass quickly. 

Additionally, Tahu might have the very valuable Makuta powers of Quick healing, Density control, Accuracy, Limited invulnerability, and Dodge. Simply put, the odds of Tahu beating a Makuta now are much more even than before because he has more valuable powers for beating Makuta.

I actually tend to forget about Quick Healing because the Makuta themselves couldn't use it after their gas forms came to be, but it's true that Tahu would likely benefit greatly from having such a power. Unlike the arrogant Makuta, I also believe he'll learn to, y'know, use the Dodge power, if he has it.

Well, anyways, my point is that Makuta may have an advantage through their array of powers, but they have only a mediocre control over their powers.

My impression is that Makuta don't have "mediocre" control over their powers, they just choose to focus on a narrow range of powers because they would have trouble mastering them all. A prime "specialty" is shadow like Teridax, but Mutran chose to specialize in Mutation so much he had a mask of it. They also seem to use offensive powers like chain lightning a lot, and Teridax did a lot of shapeshifting. (Frankly, Teridax is better at the latter than Matau, arguably.) So I think it depends on which Makuta, which power, and how much level of experience.

Yes, it depends on the Makuta and what power we are talking about. It's very much possible for a Makuta to have the same power as a level 6 Kraata of the same power, and beyond. It's a matter of focus and practice, so naturally some powers would be mediocre and some would be very powerful. To mention Dark Mirror again, Lewa was killed by Teridax turning him to ashes with a lightning bolt. That is not "mediocre", that's right up there with level 6 Electricity or Chain Lightning. Immediately before, Krika had used Vacuum to absorb Lewa's attacks, something I think would at least be more efficient than another Toa of Air trying to do the same.

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#29 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Apr 05 2013 - 06:06 PM

Don't get me wrong, I don't think a Toa can go head to head with a Makuta and be EXPECTED to win. But I really don't think it is that far fetched to see a Toa win (not just the Fa, De, and Fe Toa, but maybe a Toa of Water, or a Toa of Earth) every now and then.


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                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#30 Offline fishers64

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Posted Apr 06 2013 - 12:12 AM

I actually tend to forget about Quick Healing because the Makuta themselves couldn't use it after their gas forms came to be, but it's true that Tahu would likely benefit greatly from having such a power. Unlike the arrogant Makuta, I also believe he'll learn to, y'know, use the Dodge power, if he has it.

Well, keep in mind that he absorbed those powers from the Rahkshi that were going against him in Karda Nui, a vast army of expendable soldiers. I would think Tahu would have stuff like chain lightning, fragmentation, molecular disruption, etc.

 

I found these Greg quotes, might shed some light:

2b) So a Makuta’s elemental shadow powers is greater than a Toa Nuva’s?2b) Yes, because a Makuta has greater willpower than a Toa does * * *1) Tuyet has more raw elemental energy at her command, but a Makuta has more willpower and mental discipline to be able to use their power wisely.

 So, attacking my own theory because I can, it seems that the elemental strength of a Makuta is greater than a Toa, and the Makuta would have better discipline in using their powers, period, no matter what they use.


Edited by fishers64, Apr 06 2013 - 12:25 AM.

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