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Where did all the drainage go?


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#1 Offline Zeene

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 09:16 AM

So, with all the 'Inner light/shadow-draining'-topic popping up lately, I can't help but wonder: where did all the "drained" power go?

 

Even though Bionicle is fiction, it's still subject to the basic laws of physics (Hey, they have gravity), and then the Law of Conversation of Energy comes into play:energy can't be created or destroyed, only converted - the inner light or inner shadow couldn't have just "disappeared", it needs to go somewhere. And I doubt it's going to the shadow leeches, since they don't seem to be able to hold that much energy.

 

Also, since Umbra was drained of his inner shadow by the Great Beings, and it seems unlike the GBs to don't do anything with that energy; most likely, they used it in something else. Would be interesting to see what that energy went into, and what the creation it's been used in is able to do.


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#2 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 09:29 AM

In my opinion it are the Shadow Leeches, they kinda eat it.

 

To me inner light/shadow isn't that much, maybe worth a KiloJoule of energy, possibly less.


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#3 Offline Friend of Fire

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 09:33 AM

It has been stated that the Shadow Leeches devoured the energy they drained from their target, and that was why they burnt up.

 

As for Umbra inner shadow, the GBs could have used that to create the antidermis.  How else could the substance be high in shadow energy?


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#4 Offline Zeene

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 09:38 AM

It has been stated that the Shadow Leeches devoured the energy they drained from their target, and that was why they burnt up.

 

Still, even after burning up, the energy still needs to be somewhere in some form. And I don't image all of an individual's inner light just becoming a tiny bit of nearly-unnoticeable radiation.

 

 

As for Umbra inner shadow, the GBs could have used that to create the antidermis.  How else could the substance be high in shadow energy?

 

That's actually a very good idea there. Problem being, there's simply too much antidermis in existence for it all to be made out of Umbra's inner shadow.


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#5 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 10:01 AM

It has been stated that the Shadow Leeches devoured the energy they drained from their target, and that was why they burnt up.

 

Still, even after burning up, the energy still needs to be somewhere in some form. And I don't image all of an individual's inner light just becoming a tiny bit of nearly-unnoticeable radiation.

 

Depends how much energy it actually is, why couldn't it be extremely small?


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#6 Offline Zeene

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 10:07 AM

 

It has been stated that the Shadow Leeches devoured the energy they drained from their target, and that was why they burnt up.

 

Still, even after burning up, the energy still needs to be somewhere in some form. And I don't image all of an individual's inner light just becoming a tiny bit of nearly-unnoticeable radiation.

 

Depends how much energy it actually is, why couldn't it be extremely small?

 

Well, if Fire's theory is correct, then a single individual's inner shadow powers all antidermis. If your inner light were to be just a tiny little bit of energy, then it'd be grossly unbalanced.


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#7 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 10:16 AM

 

 

It has been stated that the Shadow Leeches devoured the energy they drained from their target, and that was why they burnt up.

 

Still, even after burning up, the energy still needs to be somewhere in some form. And I don't image all of an individual's inner light just becoming a tiny bit of nearly-unnoticeable radiation.

 

Depends how much energy it actually is, why couldn't it be extremely small?

 

Well, if Fire's theory is correct, then a single individual's inner shadow powers all antidermis. If your inner light were to be just a tiny little bit of energy, then it'd be grossly unbalanced.

 

A theory not based on facts :) We should only base us on facts here... Well alternate Terry also had no Shadow, yet he has antidermis, Theory busted.


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#8 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 01:37 PM

[font="Arial;"]the Law of Conversation of Energy comes into play:energy can't be created or destroyed, only converted - the inner light or inner shadow couldn't have just "disappeared", it needs to go somewhere.[/font]

I'm noticing a lot of confusion lately about that law. :P A couple points:

 

1) It is referring first of all to all forms of matter and energy (matter is essentially energy that is staying roughly in one place) -- it's saying nothing about whether that energy is converted to another form of energy (that would be non-interactive, etc.).

 

2) It is not necessarily true of all forms of energy if one can cancel the other out. If yall saw my post recently about how there is precedent in wave physics for a negative wave to cancel out a positive wave, that sort of thing could at face value appear to break this law.

 

3) We're talking about "inner light" and nobody's really sure exactly what that is or is not. It could be something like "software", and values in software can be lowered to nothing, without "going" anywhere. This probably isn't the case here, just pointing it out.

 

So basically, there's really no reason to assume it went anywhere.

 

All that said, no reason we can't wonder if it did too though. :P Just wanted to make that clear.

 

[font="Arial;"]where did all the "drained" power go?[/font]

Easiest option is just "into the air/space", into rocks, earth, trees, water, whatever is "around you". Keep in mind that (it's been theorized anyways) that both shadow and light energy are normally present but unnoticed on planets, and same with cold energy and heat. So when beings of Fire, Ice, Light, or Shadow absorb one, its opposite is present to move in and fill the "neutral" gap. (The lack of either a positive or negative wave.)

 

Since all this energy of both opposing types is out there without being noticed (under the theory), adding a little bit more will just be like throwing the contents of one bucket of water into the ocean. Completely unnoticeable. :)

 

So with that option, it's virtually the same as "it just ceases to exist" -- it would play no story role of any kind.

 

I would go for one of those two options because it's unlikely Greg intended for the energy (if it IS energy) to go into anything else in any way that it could play a story role.


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#9 Offline Zeene

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 02:01 PM

[font="Arial;"]the Law of Conversation of Energy comes into play:energy can't be created or destroyed, only converted - the inner light or inner shadow couldn't have just "disappeared", it needs to go somewhere.[/font]

I'm noticing a lot of confusion lately about that law. :P A couple points:

 

1) It is referring first of all to all forms of matter and energy (matter is essentially energy that is staying roughly in one place) -- it's saying nothing about whether that energy is converted to another form of energy (that would be non-interactive, etc.).

 

Quoting myself here:

and then the Law of Conversation of Energy comes into play: energy can't be created or destroyed, only converted

 

The amount of energy that goes in, is equal to the amount of energy that comes out. i.e., your average lightbulb turns electrical energy into light and heat, light being the one we want, and the heat being considered a "waste" of energy.

Just wanted to point out that I actually do know my physics. Just might not be using the proper terms at times since, well, all my Physics lessons surprisingly were in Dutch, which just happens to be the primary language of the country I live in. AKA the Netherlands.

 

Also, if the inner light and inner shadow were just pieces of software, then somehow a mere leech can do what virtually everyone else could not: hack into a Matoran. That'd be a more suitable task for a Toa with a mask of Mine Control.

Anyway, let's assume inner light/shadow actually are a form of energy. Yeah, it's possible that the inner light that was drained from the Av-Matoran was just a 'bucket of water in the ocean' - after all, when their mental barrier was broken, the inner light slowly flowed back to them. The interesting thing here is still Umbra, though. The Great Beings drained him off his inner shadow, and knowing the GBs, they wouldn't have wasted the opportunity.


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#10 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 02:23 PM

Anyway, let's assume inner light/shadow actually are a form of energy. Yeah, it's possible that the inner light that was drained from the Av-Matoran was just a 'bucket of water in the ocean' - after all, when their mental barrier was broken, the inner light slowly flowed back to them. The interesting thing here is still Umbra, though. The Great Beings drained him off his inner shadow, and knowing the GBs, they wouldn't have wasted the opportunity.

 

What do you mean with the Umbra thing? I don't understand quite well, also, IMO the GB's were experementing/studying Inner Ligh/Shadow and that resulted in Umbra, then he, because of the combo of his spiecies and the drainage, gained this awesome light powers and the GB's noticed that and found the Ideal guard in him.


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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Apr 10 2013 - 02:42 PM

[font="Arial;"]The interesting thing here is still Umbra, though. The Great Beings drained him off his inner shadow, and knowing the GBs, they wouldn't have wasted the opportunity.[/font]

But they had just created him, apparently, and endowed him with those things. You don't seem to be taking that into account. :P

 

Also, as I've mentioned before, I'm not sure we know that he ever had any inner shadow. We can't assume this is the case without confirmation but it would seem to be more efficient for them to just make him without any in the first place. So he demonstrates what it would be like if someone were to drain their shadow entirely, but that doesn't mean he ever had any to drain. I've so far been unable to find confirmation either way; only that the GBs made him and that he has only inner light.

 

Even if they did have to make him balanced and then drain shadow, since they can apparently make either at will, I don't see why they would be concerned about what to do with it.

 

And yes, I saw that you mentioned converting, but then you seemed to go on to speak as if it wasn't being converted to anything. :P

 

 

BTW, a simple analogy may be helpful here. When the batteries in a flashlight drain, where did that energy go? Simple -- it makes light, and light easily shines. So most likely any drained light just shines away. Most things in Bionicle with special effects produce light anyways (it's a common trait of such stories), so my guess is the Shadow Leech's "burning up" is what releases that light into the air.

 

Shadow energy might not move fast like light but can be released into the air in the same way (probably to be quickly cancelled out by any light that present).

 

Actually, just checked BS01's description, and to me it sounds more like a cancelling out thing:

 

Shadow Leeches fed on light, and could drain the inner light out of a being with a sufficient amount of light in them by physical contact, making the victim evil. After sucking out a being's light, a Shadow Leech would instantly digest and eliminate the extracted light. Once this was done, a Shadow Leech would typically disintegrate within ten minutes.

 

To eliminate light, they must have (under the wave theory) a lot of shadow energy to counter it. And probably only that. I'm unsure of the "fed on" wording, whether that means they needed it to survive, but too much of a good thing, etc. They may be modified in such a way that they can only keep the two separate if there's much more shadow. Ingesting enough light to drain someone completely could break that barrier and cause the two to cancel each other entirely out.

 

Then, the Leech would be just a dead body (invertabrate; a mutated Kraata slug). Beings need at least some of one or the other to survive (Umbra's page for example says that if his light was drained he would die since he has no shadow; apparently indicating that neutral "no wave" state). I can see how a mutated slug (perhaps drained of moisture as part of the mutation, so it's like a walking heap of dust held together by shadow energy??) could disintegrate quickly while dead. Jellyfish can fall apart in a similar way in strong sunshine and dry air.

 

So that may be what's going on, rather than the "shining" idea. Either would make sense, though.


Edited by bonesiii, Apr 10 2013 - 02:54 PM.

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