How did the Toa Mata access their noble Kanohi?

[Toa Zaz]

The Toa had twelve Kanohi, but the Suva only had slots for six. Where did the Toa keep their other masks? Did they have two Suvas, or what?

[theyoungestchild]

I think it just merges with their primary Kanohi like in the first comic and the MNOLG. I believe it'd be somewhat similar to how the Great Disks merged into the Disk of Time.

[Taipu1]

My thoughts were that in most Suva depictions, the Kanohi on the outside are undersized, with a glowing energy in the middle. So I always tend to think the masks on the outside are carvings in honour of the Toa mata, and that all their Kanohi are actually stored within.

[archivist_66]

I believe that there was two Suvas in the each village. One for the Great Kanohi, and the other for the Noble... anyway, this is the most logical explanation.

[Makuta Almanax]

I'd assume the Suvas can hold more than six kanohi, especially since the Turaga also kept secondary masks (though I'm not sure if they kept them in a suva or not). Plus Suvas are known to hold Toa Tools. I suppose in technological terms, one could say they 'save' the items as data, which means that they can hold a lot more than what one would expect, so the exterior is probably a mere carving.

[bonesiii]

I'm glad you brought this up, as this subject has always been confusing and contradictory, and I'm not sure what the answer is,, but I recall some things that others might not, to add to the discussion, anyways.

 

At one point Greg actually said that Toa did not use Noble Kanohi because Great Masks were more powerful (apparently missing that if a Noble power fits a situation better like in the MNOG Onua Vs. Lewa battle, the fact that it's less powerful won't matter). Hopefully he does not still consider that the case, as it would decanonize several great scenes from MNOG and other related semi-canon media, without giving us the alternative versions to explain how they got out of those situations.

 

There were also some portrayals of the Suva as basically a large hollow, mostly buried canister similar to the Toa canisters (possibly those who used those portrayals assumed that was what the canisters were). After the Onua vs. Lewa battle in MNOG, Lewa was shown emerging from a shining energy field at the top, implying he came up from this room and retrieved the Golden Kanohi, which was (in this portrayal) waiting there all along for unlocking (though this part has been clearly contradicted by a more canon portrayal of how they got the Golden Kanohi, if memory serves, though I forget exactly what it was off the top of my head).

 

Another 2001 promo poster showed Tahu standing next to a wall that curved inward, and lifting off his Golden Hau from a head statue, apparently implying that he was inside the Suva, going with the MNOG portrayal. Point is, if this explanation was true, then there could be untold numbers of other spots for extra Kanohi inside the Suva. But unfortunately it seems it is not true.

 

Greg also explained that the Toa collected the Kanohi for use by the Turaga, originally. But I think nearly all fans prefer that the Toa and Turaga both be able to share the Noble Masks and that the semicanon portrayals of them doing so be accepted into canon. Greg may have later changed his mind on that but off the top of my head I don't recall it.

 

IMO the simplest explanation is just that the Suva may each have at least ten spots, rather than the six shown on the 2001 plastic canister lids, despite the canon images. This is six plus six, but minus two for the ones on the Toa and Turaga's faces. And possibly eleven, if there is to be an extra version of the Noble Masks the Turaga normally wear, so the Toa could call on that too normally.

[Sir Kohran]

Two questions that, if answered, may help the discussion:

 

Did the Toa each need to find six noble masks in addition to the six great masks? I'm fairly sure the masks they were shown collecting were all great ones, not noble, but that doesn't mean noble masks weren't collected 'off-screen'.

 

Does a Toa need a Suva to collect masks? If not, it could be assumed the Suvas in the villages were just Matoran monuments to honour their Toa.

 

 

Lewa was shown emerging from a shining energy field at the top, implying he came up from this room and retrieved the Golden Kanohi, which was (in this portrayal) waiting there all along for unlocking (though this part has been clearly contradicted by a more canon portrayal of how they got the Golden Kanohi, if memory serves, though I forget exactly what it was off the top of my head).

 

The MNOLG actually seems to contradict itself on the matter. Lewa is shown wearing a Golden Kanohi as you describe, but when he is next seen at the Kini-Nui, his mask is his standard green; it then turns golden (as do the other Toa's) when he descends into Mangaia.

 

I don't recall any other portrayal of the Toa getting them, though the books might hold one.

[bonesiii]

Another question is why, if the Toa did collect the Noble masks as Greg originally said, why in the world would the Turaga have hidden those in the first place, since they would have helped them protect the villages. I think Greg may have been asked about that too but I don't recall the answer.

 

There was another portrayal of getting the Golden Kanohi, and pretty sure it was in Hapka's books. This was cleared up in a past topic, I think, but I've entirely forgotten what it was since then lol.

 

 

As for needing Suva, they could collect masks without them but in order to switch between them by teleportation they do need Suva. That was confirmed multiple times. If they didn't have a connection with a Suva, they would have to physically carry other masks, as in with a backpack (which is risky as they are somewhat fragile).

 

Another question is how the Suva in the Ga-Metru temple worked, as it wasn't shown with masks attached to it either but there were masks stored in the temple. This might fit with the "room beneath it" explanation.

 

Or, maybe the simplest resolution of all would be that Suva can simply teleport masks Toa have touched that are stored near the Suva. Or even anywhere "in their possession", perhaps, similar to the possession rule for the Nuva Symbols? If either of these explanations is the case, then they could theoretically collect any number of them, but perhaps it would be faster for the ones physically stored on the Suva.

[emily]

When it comes to the original plan for the Toa and how they collected the Kanohi (I won't delve into the current canon, whatever that may be), it is important to remember that the cancelled Legend of Mata Nui game was probably going to explain the details more fully. Due to it's cancellation, we were left with an incomplete picture. Thankfully, we have clues left from Mata Nui Online game and what we know of the cancelled game to at least partially fill in the blanks.

 

I would pose the theory that the oft-forgotten Kini of the various Wahi provided housing for the Noble Kanohi. The Kini (or at least the Onu-Kini) bear a strong resemblance to the Kini-Nui, and have Suva in the center that could probably hold the Noble Masks.

 

The interior of each Suva was originally intended to house a Golden Kanohi. By placing all six Great Masks on a Suva, a Toa could descend within it and claim his or her Golden Kanohi and Makoki stone. This is shown in MNOLG, and supported by the Quest for the Masks story cards - in addition to being implied elsewhere.

Greg also explained that the Toa collected the Kanohi for use by the Turaga, originally. But I think nearly all fans prefer that the Toa and Turaga both be able to share the Noble Masks and that the semicanon portrayals of them doing so be accepted into canon. Greg may have later changed his mind on that but off the top of my head I don't recall it.

In 2001 it was stated that the Noble Kanohi were intended to be used by both the Turaga and Toa (see the Kanohi advertizement in the center of comic 2) - it is certainly possible that Greg forgot or was not aware of this, though.

 

Did the Toa each need to find six noble masks in addition to the six great masks? I'm fairly sure the masks they were shown collecting were all great ones, not noble, but that doesn't mean noble masks weren't collected 'off-screen'.

The Toa definitely needed to search for six Noble Masks each. They are shown collecting Noble Kanohi in The Legend of Mata-Nui, as well as (if I remember correctly) the Quest for the Masks story cards.

 

The MNOLG actually seems to contradict itself on the matter. Lewa is shown wearing a Golden Kanohi as you describe, but when he is next seen at the Kini-Nui, his mask is his standard green; it then turns golden (as do the other Toa's) when he descends into Mangaia.

 

I don't recall any other portrayal of the Toa getting them, though the books might hold one.

This is one mystery that may never be solved. Everything in 2001 points to the Toa receiving their Golden Kanohi at the Suva, but everything that depicts them arriving at the Kini-Nui shows them with their standard Kanohi. I suspect that there may be an answer in The Legend of Mata Nui. The game was said to have eight levels, which makes one for each Toa plus two additional levels. Based on the cutscene depicting the battle with the Manas, we know that the gameplay must have ended off at some point near the Kini-Nui, which to me implies one of the levels would have been spent reaching it. Also, at the end of the cutscene (which would logically lead into the next level) the Toa actually loose their Golden Kanohi. It is possible that the developers created story excuses for the last two levels, in order to avoid having to program in the Golden Kanohi. Looking at how the Kanohi work in the game, it would have been understandably difficult to employ a mask that can use multiple powers at once. In any case, this would partially explain why the Toa must reactivate their Golden Kanohi when they reach the Kini-Nui - so that the game developers would have less work to worry about.

[Toa Talo]

In Bionicle: Chronicles 1 Tales of the Toa Kopaka had a vision of Kini Nui so the toa go there where they find life size carvings of them but without masks they put all their masks on their respective carving's face which causes them to disappear and the Golden Kanohi appear. Making them getting their golden masks from their suva non-canon. I have the Tales of the Toa book right in front of me as I post this.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Toa Talo

[emily]

In Bionicle: Chronicles 1 Tales of the Toa Kopaka had a vision of Kini Nui so the toa go there where they find life size carvings of them but without masks they put all their masks on their respective carving's face which causes them to disappear and the Golden Kanohi appear. Making them getting their golden masks from their suva non-canon. I have the Tales of the Toa book right in front of me as I post this.

I was merely speaking from the perspective of how matters stood in 2001. To be honest, I'm not informed enough to know what is currently considered canon.

[bonesiii]

In Bionicle: Chronicles 1 Tales of the Toa Kopaka had a vision of Kini Nui so the toa go there where they find life size carvings of them but without masks they put all their masks on their respective carving's face which causes them to disappear and the Golden Kanohi appear. Making them getting their golden masks from their suva non-canon. I have the Tales of the Toa book right in front of me as I post this.

Thanks. I thought that was it but wasn't sure enough to say it. Also, pretty sure Greg later confirmed this is the canon one. Not that this really explains the Noble thing.

[Sir Kohran]

I would pose the theory that the oft-forgotten Kini of the various Wahi provided housing for the Noble Kanohi. The Kini (or at least the Onu-Kini) bear a strong resemblance to the Kini-Nui, and have Suva in the center that could probably hold the Noble Masks.

 

What were these Kini? I don't remember ever hearing of any, but you talk as though you've actually seen one.

 

The Toa definitely needed to search for six Noble Masks each. They are shown collecting Noble Kanohi in The Legend of Mata-Nui, as well as (if I remember correctly) the Quest for the Masks story cards.

 

I'm rather hesitant about relying on a cancelled product and a card game for story info.

 

I suspect that there may be an answer in The Legend of Mata Nui. The game was said to have eight levels, which makes one for each Toa plus two additional levels. Based on the cutscene depicting the battle with the Manas, we know that the gameplay must have ended off at some point near the Kini-Nui, which to me implies one of the levels would have been spent reaching it.

 

What we do know is that the majority of the game would've been made up of six big levels on Mata-Nui's surface, each allotted to a Toa - Onua getting the first, Gali the next, Pohatu the third, Kopaka the fourth, Lewa the fifth, and Tahu the last. Whether there was a separate level dedicated to reaching Kini-Nui or whether that was incorporated in Tahu's level is unknown, but the long cutscene that begins there and features the Kaita and Manas must've come at least fairly soon after Tahu's level. After that cutscene ends with the Manas defeated but the Toa still underground, there must've been a final level in which the Toa faced either the Shadow Toa and/or Makuta himself. Once this was won, the celebration cutscene would've concluded the game.

 

That's only going on the three cutscenes we know of. There might've been others, or some sections of the story might've been relayed through in-game dialogue or brief clips.

 

 

Also, at the end of the cutscene (which would logically lead into the next level) the Toa actually loose their Golden Kanohi. It is possible that the developers created story excuses for the last two levels, in order to avoid having to program in the Golden Kanohi.

 

The cutscene's ending is very confusing; the Kaita dissolve and the Toa are seen standing there. They somehow vanish into thin air, with only the Kaita's masks left behind. We can only wonder where they appeared at and how the next (and presumably last) level began.

 

You're right that the Toa's masks have reverted to their standard colours during their brief return at the cutscene's end, but watching the very start of the celebration cutscene, I'm fairly sure Tahu's mask is golden again. As it should be, given that their masks were golden throughout the Bohrok arc.

 

 

In Bionicle: Chronicles 1 Tales of the Toa Kopaka had a vision of Kini Nui so the toa go there where they find life size carvings of them but without masks they put all their masks on their respective carving's face which causes them to disappear and the Golden Kanohi appear. Making them getting their golden masks from their suva non-canon. I have the Tales of the Toa book right in front of me as I post this.

Thanks. I thought that was it but wasn't sure enough to say it. Also, pretty sure Greg later confirmed this is the canon one. Not that this really explains the Noble thing.

Doesn't this directly contradict the MNOLG? Why should the book, written two years after 2001, override media from the actual time period?

Edited May 5, 2013 by Sir Kohran

[bonesiii]

I think he's talking about the four posts around some of the Suva in the villages -- technically those are called Kini, if memory serves.

 

I agree we can't rely on a cancelled game for canon info. More likely these little trivial contradictions weren't even on the "radar screens" of those designing these things at the time, and that game would have just produced even more contradictions from the two other portrayals.

 

Yeah, it's the old Hapka versus MNOG conundrum. The deciding vote is of course Greg, so it comes down to whether I'm remembering right that he said which was canon. Bottom line is, these Suva and mask related questions have no obvious answer that can be easily made consistent with every portrayal. We could learn which answers are canon, but methinks that will not be satisfying to all, regardless of what it is, and fans can ignore that. I'm still debating which portrayal I prefer enough to use in the history retelling. The MNOG one solves the Noble Masks issue, with a little imagination, but is apparently the one confirmed not to be canon, so yeah...

 

The MNOG version also helps explain how the Golden Kanohi got there -- it was physically stored, locked away inside. The other portrayal includes a locking system, but the mask just appears, making us wonder where it has been stored all this time. However, the book portayal sounds like it's fusing the six masks into one mask. Is the other portrayal like that, etc.

 

More questions to throw out there if anyone has any answers.

[emily]

What were these Kini? I don't remember ever hearing of any in the story, but you talk as though you've actually seen one.

There were six Kini, one in each Wahi. They aren't remembered much because their only story appearance was The Legend of Mata Nui. If you look up the walkthrough of the first level of the game online, you will see that it includes the Onu-Kini.

 

Beyond the game, the Kini were labeled on the Map of Mata Nui poster that was distributed in a Toys R Us promotion, as well as being mentioning in the Quest for the Masks cards.

 

I'm a little hesitant about relying on a cancelled product and a card game for story info.

I completely agree that neither is reliable as far as the current BIONICLE canon. As far as what was planned in 2001, though, I have found that both are reliable sources (although the cards are only so as far as general information, the specific events that they depict were not made in consideration of other media that existed at the time).

 

What we do know is that the majority of the game would've been made up of six big levels, each allotted to a Toa - Onua getting the first, Gali the next, Pohatu the third, Kopaka the fourth, Lewa the fifth, and Tahu the last. Whether there was a separate level dedicated to reaching Kini-Nui or whether that was incorporated in Tahu's level is unknown, but the long cutscene that begins there and features the Kaita and Manas must've come at least fairly soon after Tahu's level. After that cutscene ends with the Manas defeated but the Toa still underground, there must've been a final level in which the Toa faced either the Shadow Toa and/or Makuta himself. Once this was won, the celebration cutscene would've concluded the game.

 

That's only going on the three cutscenes we know of. There might've been others, or some sections of the story might've been relayed through in-game dialogue or brief clips.

An advertizement in Comic 2 says the game features "eight massive game environments," so I based my assumption that there would be a level featuring the journey to the Kini-Nui based on that. It may have been something else entirely, though, or perhaps simply an early idea that is not actually in the most final version of the game at all.

 

The cutscene's ending is very confusing; the Kaita dissolve and the Toa are seen standing there. They somehow vanish into thin air, with only the Kaita's masks left behind. We can only wonder where they appeared at and how the next (and presumably last) level began.

 

You're right that the Toa's masks have reverted to their standard colours during their brief return at the cutscene's end, but watching the very start of the celebration cutscene, I'm fairly sure Tahu's mask is golden again. As it should be, given that their masks were golden throughout the Bohrok arc.

Certainly. I intended to convey that the masks would be their normal colors for some or all of the final level (thus requiring the player to cycle between Kanohi to solve the level's problems), and that they would return to their golden state some time at or before the end.

 

Doesn't this directly contradict the MNOLG? Why should the book, written two years after 2001, override media from the actual time period?

I believe the explanation that has been given for this is that since one of the sources of the original story was cancelled and the other was not approved by the story team (even though it appears to have paid close attention to the story of the cancelled game and done nothing to infringe upon the intended BIONICLE story), the book is automatically more accurate, despite contradicting the original ideas surrounding the Golden Kanohi. Later I think Greg may have taken a more 'you decide for yourself which one is more accurate' approach when people asked him about this.

 

Personally, I have always felt it is more logical for MNOLG and TLOMN to be considered more accurate.

 

EDIT:

 

I think he's talking about the four posts around some of the Suva in the villages -- technically those are called Kini, if memory serves.

 

Actually, the Kini were temples dedicated to the Toa, found in the wilderness outside of the villages.

Edited May 5, 2013 by Tazakk

[fishers64]

I'm too tired to use logic, so I'm just going to post this:

 

 

 

1) In the Mata-Nui online game back in 2001, we see Lewa getting his Golden Kanohi Mask in his Suva but in Bionicle Chronicles #1: Tale of the Toa the Toa get their mask at the Kini-Nui. Which one is it? The Suva or the Kini-Nui where they get there Golden Masks?

1) I would go with Chronicles #1 over the MNOLG, because the book was approved by the story team, the game was not "(the story team did not exist when the game was done).

11. My understanding of the events surrounding the 2001 Toa's quest for the masks is this: The Turaga had hidden the Great Kanohi they had brought from Metru Nui all over Mata Nui as Toa Metru. Makuta was obviously able to find some of these Kanohi and guard them with his Rahi. The Turaga also kept the Noble Kanohi from Metru Nui in their Koro on their Suva. Before the Toa arrived, Makuta's Rahi stole into the Koro, took the Noble Kanohi, and hid them all over Mata Nui as well. When the Toa arrived, they sought out the 30 Great Kanohi, teleporting each Kanohi they put on their face back to their empty Suva. Then, they retrieved the 30 Noble Kanohi and physically returned them to the Turaga because there was no more room on their Suva. The Turaga put those Noble Kanohi in a safe, hidden place. The Toa having collected six Great Kanohi each, their six Kanohi became one Gold Kanohi on each of their Suva. n

Does that sound right? n

11) Yes, seems to be, although we know the Toa also used some the Noble Kanohi during that period.

7. The Toa collected the Noble Kanohi after they got their Gold Kanohi and before they battled Makuta, right? n

7) No. I believe the Toa were collecting Noble Masks while they were getting their Great Masks.

4) When the Toa Mata collected the 6 types of noble Kanohi for their Turaga, was this the first time the Turaga were

able to experience the 6 Kanohi powers from their fellow Turaga without switching masks with each other? n

4) I would say no, because they had the masks at one time and lost them, which is why they needed to be

recovered.

2 - Can a Toa wear, and use, a noble Kanohi?

2) Yes and yes. They did that back in 2001.

So it's canon that the Toa used the masks, and it's also canon that they got their golden masks from Kini-Nui. As for the rest, I couldn't find an answer.

[bonesiii]

Awesome, fishers. So, to recap:1) The Turaga HAD the full collection of Noble Kanohi originally, but Rahi stole them and hid them in the Wahi.2) The Toa Mata did access Noble Kanohi; he makes a blanket appeal to the story instances, and those clearly used the Suva teleportation.3) Hapka's book portrayal of getting the Golden Kanohi at Kini-Nui is canon, because it was approved by the story team. So the "room inside the Suva" portrayal is probably not canon. (The Tahu scene could be interpreted as Kini-Nui; I think I'll use that image that way in my story. The only scene, methinks, that then needs tossed out is MNOG's Lewa-emerging-from-Suva.)4) By extrapolation, the Turaga must have been able to switch masks via Suva too, and must have done so prior to the Rahi stealing those masks. (At least at that time the math is easy -- they could store these masks on five of the six slots on the Suva.)

 

 

So it seems to me the only remaining big questions are (I'll continue same numbering list to avoid confusion):5) Once more than six masks are associated with a Suva (assuming this is possible, and not counting the two on the Toa's and Turaga's faces), where are they stored? (Do the Suva actually have more slots? Is the whole slots thing non-canon to begin with and if so what alternative is there? Do they just teleport associated masks and it's irrelevant where they're stored as long as they're owned, like the Nuva Symbols which were also tied to Suva?)6) Can they associate/store more than six total masks with/on a Suva? (One easy solution to all this would be that they store five Great Masks, plus the Toa and Turaga agree on a "favorite" Noble mask to include, while the other four Noble masks are stored somewhere else and not associated. Or, perhaps the same thing, except the stored-elsewhere masks CAN be teleported, but with a delay?)

Edited May 6, 2013 by bonesiii

[Toa Zaz]

The other thing is, if the Toa Metru/ Turaga had all these Kanohi the entire time, why didn't they use them? I'm sure they would've been useful during the Great Rescue, etc.

[The Legendary TNT]

Something else, can there be more than one user per Suva? Let's have a scenario from MNOLG. Kopaka is fighting the Muaka and uses his Huna. In an alternate universe, some pesky Matoran could have been jabbering to Nuju about the secret to life and snow or something and Nuju goes

 

"click-clack-wheet-chirp"

 

*activates Huna*

 

Matoran - "Huh? Where did he go?"

 

Meanwhile, Kopaka tries to activate the Huna, but selfish Nuju is using it and the Muaka mauls our favorite Toa of Ice. Seems like it would be necessary to have two Suvas.

 

 

P.S. That is a terrible alt. universe, I hope it isn't official.

[bonesiii]

The other thing is, if the Toa Metru/ Turaga had all these Kanohi the entire time, why didn't they use them? I'm sure they would've been useful during the Great Rescue, etc.

Well, during the Morbuzahk saga at least, and I think until the return for the Visorak story they had no time to get masks, and maybe Makuta had locked them away? Then they were Hordika and couldn't use masks. Only after that, when all the baddies were already defeated, did they have time to collect masks, and that was for loading the airships to return to Mata Nui.

 

Edit: I don't see why they would need two Suva per se, more like they would need to not be calling on the mask that the other is already wearing. I suppose the real question is:

 

7) Did the Turaga share the Suva with the Toa? (I'm assuming yes.)

 

However, that would solve the space issue.

Edited May 7, 2013 by bonesiii

[ToaKapura1234]

Let's have a scenario from MNOLG. Kopaka is fighting the Muaka and uses his Huna. In an alternate universe, some pesky Matoran could have been jabbering to Nuju about the secret to life and snow or something and Nuju goes

 

"click-clack-wheet-chirp"

 

*activates Huna*

 

Matoran - "Huh? Where did he go?"

 

Meanwhile, Kopaka tries to activate the Huna, but selfish Nuju is using it and the Muaka mauls our favorite Toa of Ice. Seems like it would be necessary to have two Suvas.

 

 

P.S. That is a terrible alt. universe, I hope it isn't official.

Do you mind if I use that in a story?

[The Legendary TNT]

 

Let's have a scenario from MNOLG. Kopaka is fighting the Muaka and uses his Huna. In an alternate universe, some pesky Matoran could have been jabbering to Nuju about the secret to life and snow or something and Nuju goes

 

"click-clack-wheet-chirp"

 

*activates Huna*

 

Matoran - "Huh? Where did he go?"

 

Meanwhile, Kopaka tries to activate the Huna, but selfish Nuju is using it and the Muaka mauls our favorite Toa of Ice. Seems like it would be necessary to have two Suvas.

 

 

P.S. That is a terrible alt. universe, I hope it isn't official.

Do you mind if I use that in a story?

I guess you can...

 

Now, to counter what Bonesiii was saying about there being a room inside the Suva, I would say that there wouldn't be a room in the Suva, but there is more space for Kanohi and such. And here is my evidence:

 

The Suva on Mata Nui were based off the Suva in the Great Temple in Metru Nui. When it changed Vakama & Company, it rose up to look like a mushroom.

Inside it were compartments that held Toa Tools and their Toa Disks. In BIONICLE: Adventures #4, it says "...the sides of the raised suva fell away to reveal a cache of Toa tools" (Farshtey, 23). So with this Suva probably being the only one these Matoran have seen, they would have based the Suva on Mata Nui off this design, leaving the possibility of teleporting more than masks in six slots. Granted, there is no evidence that something other than masks can be teleported with a Suva, but the GB's had the technology to do that. Spirit's Wish could have been an early form of the Suva. Just wanted to point this out.

Edited May 8, 2013 by TNT-Vezon with an Olmak