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Makuta Power Usage

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Why did Makuta prefer to use shadow over some seemingly more lethal elements? Makuta Teridax could have killed Vakama in a split second with just shooting a beam of plasma at him but instead went with shadow energy, and lost. And what does Shadow energy do when it hits you, anyways? Just knock you down or burn through you?


Knock Knock

 

Who's there

 

Hoff

 

Hoff who

 

Yes

 

 

 

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Was he ever trying to kill Vakama? Off the top of my head I'm not 100% but I think he may have been just trying to scare them. Also, assuming you're talking about the end of the second movie, Vakama had the Vahi, so he wouldn't have wanted to risk destroying it (and similar at the end of Time Trap), though after Vakama lost it, admittedly he could have killed him. Remember his whole faked defeats strategy.

 

Also, though, they are beings of shadow, so it may just be a strong preference for that power/element.

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Was he ever trying to kill Vakama? Off the top of my head I'm not 100% but I think he may have been just trying to scare them. Also, assuming you're talking about the end of the second movie, Vakama had the Vahi, so he wouldn't have wanted to risk destroying it (and similar at the end of Time Trap), though after Vakama lost it, admittedly he could have killed him. Remember his whole faked defeats strategy.

 

Also, though, they are beings of shadow, so it may just be a strong preference for that power/element.

Agreed ( but, after all, how to say "no" to bonesiii? :P ). I'd just want to add that, in my opinion, Teridax would have preferred to convert, if we may say so, Vakama to his side: a poweful ally such as that particular Toa of Fire could have been of great use for him, even though said Toa had the Vahi; once brought into Shadows, Teridax should even have just asked Vakama for the Mask and, given that Vakama himself hadn't thought of taking Makuta's place, he would have found little to no opposition.

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It's been shown to be a highly destructive energy when used as an elemental power, not that silhouette you see when objects block light.

 

No, you don't get to say that's silly. Silly would be having the main villain attempt to attack someone with actual shadows.


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I think there might be a number of explanations.

 

Makuta might have seen Vakama's intelligence and ability to craft Kanohi as useful so, after failing to get him on his side, he tried to absorb him to gain his knowledge that way.

 

Another solution might be that he couldn't focus. He has stated that, immediately after absorbing Nidhiki, Krekka and Nivawk, a good part of his energy was devoted to crushing their consciousnesses. Because of that, he might have gone for a Shadow Hand which might have been easier to create due to his connection to shadow.


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Well what does shadow do, burn you?

See my answer in the other topic specifically about this; short answer, more likely cold than hot. :)

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Makuta's goal in Metru Nui was to round up the Matoran, mind-wipe them, and place himself in the role as their "savior". The Toa got in his way, and he specifically tried to stop said Toa from coming into existence after dealing with Lhikan and his team. He was misled to think that the six Matoran (Nuhrii, Orkham & co) were the supposed Toa, and that the eventual Toa Metru were not really destined for it. Still, they became Toa, but once he got (and lost) the Vahi, Makuta hould have had no use for the Toa Metru.The excuse we've gotten is pretty much that absorbing three beings at once (Krekka, Nidhiki, Niwawk) - in order to build up power for his shapeshifting into a larger form - left Makuta a bit off-balance, forced to deal with suppressing their dying minds and thus a bit lacking in the strategic department. He was also in control of the situation, with Vakama a novice Toa and obviously on the defensive. He went with the powers he had used the most, such as Shadow, especially because the movie makers were rather conservative with what powers they made the characters use. The Toa Metru use absolutely zero of their elemental powers (never mentioned that they spent all their energy during the Great Disk hunt/Morbuzahk fight) until they seal Teridax. Teridax himself only uses shapeshifting and shadow hand.Still, if this plot was not constrained by the movie or the fact that heroes usually survive... if I were Makuta and the Vahi got knocked out of my hands (forcing me to waste years on my current plan), I'd kill that Toa. And when my starter strategy (grabbing him) didn't work, I'd rather break out some other power to crush him into a fine paste. Then I'd toss that paste at the remaining Toa while laughing like a maniac.As for the rest of the Makuta, they all used certain powers more than others. Chirox was said to use his Shadow Hand with great precision during experiments, so it makes sense that he'd be skilled with it in combat as well. Vamphrah apparently preferred to drain energy, while Bitil likewise used his mask power. The swamp Makuta lost several of their powers due to the mutation, so it's unclear which ones they might have preferred. The ones in the sky were blinded, thus limiting their aim with several powers too. Both teams were instructed to let the Toa live, so naturally they did not break out the disintegration beams either.Makuta Teridax has used several powers in his later fights, such as when he attempted a Stasis Field against Brutaka. Rahi Control came to good use against Karzahni's crab army. Icarax broke out Magnetism to crush Botar like a tin can, if I'm not mistaken, while Terdiax and Krika at least showed some power use in the Dark Mirror serial.I'd chalk the lack of power use up to the fact that there are so many of them, and that most of the Makuta could not be allowed to just crush the heroes at once.

Edited by Katuko

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Makuta's goal in Metru Nui was to round up the Matoran, mind-wipe them, and place himself in the role as their "savior". The Toa got in his way, and he specifically tried to stop said Toa from coming into existence after dealing with Lhikan and his team. He was misled to think that the six Matoran (Nuhrii, Orkham & co) were the supposed Toa, and that the eventual Toa Metru were not really destined for it. Still, they became Toa, but once he got (and lost) the Vahi, Makuta hould have had no use for the Toa Metru.

If you're saying that he would thus kill them, that doesn't necessarily follow. He's a "plans within plans" kind of guy and does faked defeats and contingencies and rethinking, etc. My guess is he could still use them for his purposes (after all, they got the Matoran away from Metru Nui but kept watch over them so they could one day come back for the takeover), but would have preferred they not be there.

 

Still, if this plot was not constrained by the movie or the fact that heroes usually survive... if I were Makuta and the Vahi got knocked out of my hands (forcing me to waste years on my current plan), I'd kill that Toa. And when my starter strategy (grabbing him) didn't work, I'd rather break out some other power to crush him into a fine paste. Then I'd toss that paste at the remaining Toa while laughing like a maniac.

This might work, assuming the Toa Mata arrive on schedule, but they did not. Considering that they didn't, so the Matoran had to go somewhere and be led by somebody, IMO it's smarter for Makuta to let them live and become Turaga at that point.

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If you're saying that he would thus kill them, that doesn't necessarily follow. He's a "plans within plans" kind of guy and does faked defeats and contingencies and rethinking, etc. My guess is he could still use them for his purposes (after all, they got the Matoran away from Metru Nui but kept watch over them so they could one day come back for the takeover), but would have preferred they not be there.

The Toa Metru did nothing but screw with his plans. They destroyed the Morbuzahk before time, they caused him to lose the Vahi, they moved the Matoran someplace else, they forced him to play cat-n-mouse on the surface via proxies.If the Toa Metru had been killed before that little mishap with the protocage, Makuta would have been free to awaken the Matoran at his leisure later, without needing Roodaka to get him out. He could retrieve the Vahi from the Silver Sea without anyone interfering.

This might work, assuming the Toa Mata arrive on schedule, but they did not. Considering that they didn't, so the Matoran had to go somewhere and be led by somebody, IMO it's smarter for Makuta to let them live and become Turaga at that point.

Makuta planned to make the Matoran follow him unquestionably, because their memory would be gone and all they'd know is that he awakened them from imprisonment in the metal spheres. He'd tell them to go back to work, and they'd do so. They would not need Turaga to lead them so long as Teridax kept them in check now and then or sent some minions to lead them. The Matoran weren't supposed to worry about much else than working anyways. It's not like Makuta would disturb the city with Morbuzahk anymore after he got his way.He also would have no idea that the Toa Mata canisters would misfire. He might suspect it, if the Toa didn't show up on schedule, given that the robot was mostly underwater at the time. Still, if they did misfire, he could search for them. It's not like he's the leader of a gang of powerful beings who can shapeshift and read minds and teleport, no? Finding them adrift in the ocean would be almost trivial with the resources the Brotherhood has, even if it took a few years to search. They could equip Masks of Sonar and similar if they needed the extra help.Now, the Toa were told by the Turaga when they arrived that the island was sought by an evil being. However, these Toa had been in their canisters for a long time, well before the Makuta went rogue. The mind-wiped Matoran would be busy at work in Metru Nui, with no Turaga to tell bad stories. He could easily delude them the way he did the Toa Metru at first: by posing as a benefactor.The Toa would also not hinder the Bohrok swarms or turn Nuva in the way they did, so that Makuta would not be forced to send Rahkshi after them. The Mask of Light would not be found by a bumbling Ta-Matoran. The Mask of Life would be comparatively unprotected on Voya Nui, with no Toa/Piraka feud in the way and no bodiless Makuta struggling to regain control. He could have set the other Makuta up to escort the Toa into Karda Nui, without telling any of them what would actually be happening once there. Comparatively, it would have been a much smoother ride for Makuta if he had torn the Toa Metru to shreds, not been imprisoned, and been allowed to wake the Matoran at the scheduled time.The wildcards here are people such as the Order of Mata Nui and the angry Dark Hunters, which would still be a problem. Other Toa and Matoran elsewhere in the universe could also attempt to message Metru Nui about the Makuta's treachery, via mind-powers, teleportation or similar. Still, this would have happened regardless of what happened at the island above. I still hold that the best strategy would have involved eliminating the Toa Metru and find some other pawns to use.

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It seems to me there's only two times when Makuta could have had an easy kill option of the Toa Metru, and neither is really a perfect opportunity.

 

First, when the Toa Metru stood before him as Turaga Dume with all the Matoran watching. If he was sure he could use the Vahki to round up all the Matoran by force he wouldn't have needed to hold his cover then. After that they were out of his sight, until Vakama got the Vahi.

 

As an aside, do we know why Makuta didn't dive for the Vahi? That's puzzling me. But until he got it away from them, he couldn't have risked killing Vakama, at least.

 

And then after losing the Vahi, Vakama was hiding from him, etc. and then they protocaged him. Plus, as you said, he was confused due to making a bad decision to absorb the DH. So that's not really a great opportunity.

 

After that, I think he had chances in Time Trap again, but not once Vakama had the showdown with the Vahi.

 

 

Anyways, all of this assumes that Makuta wanted them dead anyways, which is hard to prove. We aren't masterminds like him, basically. As foolish as it might seem to us, that might just be because we're missing things. That's the main point -- "I would have done this" doesn't necessarily imply Makuta should have. After all, he nearly won in the end.

 

And again, yes, he wanted to rule the Matoran in the city, but clearly he could settle for keeping them on Mata Nui until needed. Arguably it's better that way even; they're out of the way so other MU Toa couldn't come in and free them, etc.

 

So I have to disagree that they did nothing but mess with his plans. That assumes his planning doesn't involve struggling against a foe that he lets live, but everything about his personality screams that it does; that he easily uses even enemies as pawns. I would say only that they altered the path he took within his plans (including whenever he had to rethink them, etc.). They did many things that worked for his goals, just not in one way he had planned earlier. (And in general, sweeping negative statements are always questionable as a rule anyways.)

 

Besides, it was trapping him in a protocage that gave him time to think of the big change to taking over the giant robot, so really he might see that as a big gift they unwittingly gave him! :)

he could search for them. It's not like he's the leader of a gang of powerful beings who can shapeshift and read minds and teleport, no? Finding them adrift in the ocean would be almost trivial with the resources the Brotherhood has, even if it took a few years to search. They could equip Masks of Sonar and similar if they needed the extra help.

I do think this needs further thought. It is odd that he didn't have them searched for. Well, maybe he knew how to get them summoned, but why wait a whole thousand years?

 

On the other hand, a thousand years with their lifespans is nothing, so maybe we're just looking at it wrong through our short lifespan eyes. :shrugs:

 

For a while I assumed he knew Mata Nui's health was going down and wanted it to a certain state, but I think someone in a recent topic debunked that; Makuta didn't know. (Although, I'm not sure if he could have gotten Mata Nui out of the robot if he didn't die... some confusion still here.)

Edited by bonesiii

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It seems to me there's only two times when Makuta could have had an easy kill option of the Toa Metru, and neither is really a perfect opportunity. First, when the Toa Metru stood before him as Turaga Dume with all the Matoran watching. If he was sure he could use the Vahki to round up all the Matoran by force he wouldn't have needed to hold his cover then. After that they were out of his sight, until Vakama got the Vahi.

He could have killed three of them as soon as they were imprisoned by the Vahki, as a start. I just find it weird that he didn't have any problem with offing Lhikan's team one by one, and tried to stop the Toa Metru from ever coming into being, but then didn't follow up and just try more actively to kill them afterwards.

As an aside, do we know why Makuta didn't dive for the Vahi? That's puzzling me. But until he got it away from them, he couldn't have risked killing Vakama, at least.

No, we're never given an explanation, apart from the movie limiting Makuta's range of powers to just basic shapeshifting and his shadow hand. He dives off the edge of the platform to get it the first time it falls, after Vakama fails to use it properly against Terdiax. Vakama watches Lhikan die in the meantime. Right afterwards, he proceeds to knock the mask out of Teridax's hand with a well-placed Kanoka, and this leads to an angry response about how long the plan will take without it, and then attempted murder.Given that Vakama found the thing underwater later, I don't think Makuta would have had any trouble... so long as he got rid of the Metru right then and there. :) It's not really a question here about what would happen if the Shadow Hand reached Vakama. Chirox used one to just toss Pohatu around in one of the comics, but the version employed by Terdiax in this movie seems incapable of stopping. It lashes out, grasps something, and pulls it towards Makuta. He smashes the rocks he first grabs and is unable to stop the giant pillar from reaching him once it's set in motion.

And then after losing the Vahi, Vakama was hiding from him, etc. and then they protocaged him. Plus, as you said, he was confused due to making a bad decision to absorb the DH. So that's not really a great opportunity.

I just don't see why he couldn't have acted at least a tiny bit more like the mastermind he's supposed to be and NOT flattened himself with a giant rock. Vakama cannot leave the pillar, and Makuta is bigger and faster than him. He could just do a few sweeps across the area.

After that, I think he had chances in Time Trap again, but not once Vakama had the showdown with the Vahi.

Correct, though he could easily have taken the Vahi from Turaga Vakama after they reached the surface. Or simply abandoned his one-year promise and murdered them before they awakened the Matoran. As said, he did not seem intent on letting Vakama live when they fought.

So I have to disagree that they did nothing but mess with his plans. That assumes his planning doesn't involve struggling against a foe that he lets live, but everything about his personality screams that it does; that he easily uses even enemies as pawns. I would say only that they altered the path he took within his plans (including whenever he had to rethink them, etc.). They did many things that worked for his goals, just not in one way he had planned earlier. (And in general, sweeping negative statements are always questionable as a rule anyways.) Besides, it was trapping him in a protocage that gave him time to think of the big change to taking over the giant robot, so really he might see that as a big gift they unwittingly gave him! :)

Without the Toa Metru, there would have been no Great Rescue and no lost Vahi. He would not have been forced to send the Dark Hunters after them (thus potentially preventing him from absorbing them rather than other random beings to build in size).Now, since Makuta got the idea of actually hijacking the entire Matoran Universe because his initial plan failed, then I see even less reason to let the Metru live. They had foiled him once, and them being alive on the island or not wouldn't impact anything but Matoran morale. Morale, I might add, that had nothing to say once he took over anyways.

I do think this needs further thought. It is odd that he didn't have them searched for. Well, maybe he knew how to get them summoned, but why wait a whole thousand years? On the other hand, a thousand years with their lifespans is nothing, so maybe we're just looking at it wrong through our short lifespan eyes. :shrugs: For a while I assumed he knew Mata Nui's health was going down and wanted it to a certain state, but I think someone in a recent topic debunked that; Makuta didn't know. (Although, I'm not sure if he could have gotten Mata Nui out of the robot if he didn't die... some confusion still here.)

I assumed that too, that he would let Mata Nui die in order to detach the spirit. That is a good plan, and the delays were good for him as well. I don't think he knew where the Mask of Life would end up, however. He needed control of it both in order to revive the robot body, and to eject it so he could stop the fatal countdown. These are systems he would know about given Mutran's relayed knowledge. If he had the mask at hand, he could just hide it away, wait for the body to near the point of death, and then hand the mask to whatever Toa would be willing to use it. Heck, he could even fake being a Turaga again, to throw away suspicion. He wouldn't need anything more than his antidermis to take over the universe.The loss of his entire body at the hands of Takanuva was not planned, and he had to jury-rig the solution of letting the Piraka get the mask for him. They failed, and Makuta barely made it out of The Pit alive after Matoro decided to freeze him solid. At least the reawakening happened on schedule, though it was pretty darn risky. It's unclear how the heck Teridax got back to Metru Nui in gas-form in time to block the returning spirit, too. The revival happened at about the same time as he decided to abandon the broken Maxilos body and the Barraki advanced on the Toa Mahri, so he'd have to be mighty quick to make it in just a few minutes.

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He could have killed three of them as soon as they were imprisoned by the Vahki, as a start. I just find it weird that he didn't have any problem with offing Lhikan's team one by one, and tried to stop the Toa Metru from ever coming into being, but then didn't follow up and just try more actively to kill them afterwards.

Well, I would think he wouldn't kill any of them unless he could kill them all at once, but you do raise a good point. But then, Lhikan's team was a different team, much more established, practiced, etc. It might be comparable to the whole memory-erase-then-lie situation. Makuta likes having new pawns as they're easier to manipulate than old pawns.

 

All in all, there's two big points I've got in mind here:

 

1) I get the sense Makuta has a sort of Toa-code-like rule about killing, in the sense Greg once mentioned that if you kill an enemy, you lose any benefit they might have given you. Makuta is not a murderer; he's power hungry. The whole argument that he should have killed them seems to me to assume that he wants to go around killing anybody who might get in his way. And yet, since he's so powerful, he's confident, for good reason, that none of them are seriously a problem. The less you kill, the easier the route to getting and holding that respect he covets. Killing the Toa Mangai seems more like something he felt he had no choice but to do.

 

2) For my own purposes right now, it's more useful to try to figure out how to understand the events we got in a sensible way versus trying to argue against them, if only because of the retelling I'm working on. It's great to tell alternate stories too but it's a more satisfying challenge to figure out how to make the story we got more understandable. :) At least, at the moment for me. :P

 

Good to keep in mind that it's always possible to theorize explanations to make nearly any canon event understandable if we use enough imagination, so that's more the kind of thing I'm personally asking for discussion of, rather than using imagination to think of problems with it (but then that is important too, to show things readers might be confused on to avoid that confusion, so yeah :P).

 

Also, to apply that to the first point, basically LEGO had to build a world where the goals of the enemy balanced well against the highly powerful nature of that enemy, or very little storytelling beyond "bad guy kills everybody, the end" would be possible. So to try to turn Makuta into some kind of serial killer, considering how powerful he is, doesn't seem reasonable to me. All that would accomplish would be to make nearly the entire story fall apart, yanno?

 

 

Anywho, just want to make that clear on where I'm coming from here. (And it's generally wisest for S&T anyways.)

 

 

No, we're never given an explanation, apart from the movie limiting Makuta's range of powers to just basic shapeshifting and his shadow hand. He dives off the edge of the platform to get it the first time it falls, after Vakama fails to use it properly against Terdiax. Vakama watches Lhikan die in the meantime. Right afterwards, he proceeds to knock the mask out of Teridax's hand with a well-placed Kanoka, and this leads to an angry response about how long the plan will take without it, and then attempted murder.

Well, do we know for sure that's what Makuta had in mind? It's apparent attempted murder, but if we assume for sake of argument that the entire scene is canon (which seems the only possibility, since the Toa did survive), then logically he must have been holding back his powers.

 

He is, as you say, a mastermind so unlikely that the confusion thing alone expains it; more likely he was intentionally trying to scare them away from the city as part of his contingency to get the Matoran away from the rest of the MU beings for a time, and trying to avoid killing them since they're new pawns, to have time to study them, etc. So his confusion probably made him choose between one perfectly pulled-off contingency action and something very similar which was to make mistakes while pulling off that toned-down deceptive attack and get himself protocaged. So this shortens the gap that the confusion needs to cross.

 

Then most likely IMO once he was protocaged he realized the potential usefulness of these Toa and would not have killed them from that point on, and was content to mostly play along with things, except he had to contrive his own escape, and then sought to get the Vahi.

 

 

This still leaves me confused as to why he didn't just go for the Vahi himself though. :shrugs:

 

Well, at first he may have seen it as a higher priority to deal with the psychological situation and scare these potential pawns. Then he was protocaged. But he was free for a time before Vakama got it, so it's this time I''m wondering about. Something has to explain why he didn't dive for the Vahi himself then, and I'm not sure what that could be...

 

 

 

Given that Vakama found the thing underwater later, I don't think Makuta would have had any trouble... so long as he got rid of the Metru right then and there. :) It's not really a question here about what would happen if the Shadow Hand reached Vakama. Chirox used one to just toss Pohatu around in one of the comics, but the version employed by Terdiax in this movie seems incapable of stopping. It lashes out, grasps something, and pulls it towards Makuta. He smashes the rocks he first grabs and is unable to stop the giant pillar from reaching him once it's set in motion.

I don't recall this Pohatu thing, but Greg did confirm the Shadow Hand power can't stop once started.

 

IMO what he meant by that is basically that it has to fly out and has to immediately pull back toward the user, but the pulling force after that point (about halfway back, or maybe less) becomes controllable.

 

In the movie, it was about there that it stopped pulling Lhikan's shield away, if bad memory serves, and that is lightweight so has little of its own momentum. A big rock, though, will have its own momentum once the second step is done, so even though the Hand is controllable for that brief split second, it's too late to stop the stone. The majority of the force of the Hand should be in the second step IMO.

 

So the Chirox scene under this theory would mean that Pohatu was lightweight enough (like, just enough, lol) to not collide with the Makuta.

 

 

Correct, though he could easily have taken the Vahi from Turaga Vakama after they reached the surface. Or simply abandoned his one-year promise and murdered them before they awakened the Matoran. As said, he did not seem intent on letting Vakama live when they fought.

Well, similar to the "Toa-code-like" apparent rule, it seems Makuta values personal honor in some sense, so that a deal is a deal to him. It reminds me of LOST's final season with all the "rules", and the comment one of the producers made that it's never revealed whether these rules are absolute or whether the Man in Black imposes them on himself out of a refusal to sink too low. Either way, they are in effect, so the villain works around them.

 

And yes, he would have had situations where it could work (teleport self to Ta-Koro, teleport Vakama to Le-Wahi, then grab Vahi... assuming he knows where it is), but IMO he simply gave up on messing with a Legendary Mask after that. After all, the reason he commissioned it was no longer available at that point, and since the protocage he'd changed his goal to something much grander.

 

Back when the only route to the respect he desired was the whole memory-erase-then-raise-them-my-way he seemed more desperate. He would commission a Legendary Mask, even knowing the risks, and also cast Mata Nui into what would have been eternal slumber with a risk of death, despite the fact that the universe would eventually collapse, and he would apparently have left the Matoran in Metru Nui despite the risk from other MU beings, and then try to go on to conquer the rest of the MU apparently.

 

But all the big problems with this go away as soon as his eyes are opened to the grander option -- no need to speed up a memory loss (his power really would be the same as Mata Nui's, so he wouldn't so much need to fool people), no need to risk the universe collapsing from long disuse, and no need to conquer the old-fashioned way. So probably he simply lost interest in the Vahi as he had a way to power that inspired more confidence and made him want to take less huge risks.

 

 

Without the Toa Metru, there would have been no Great Rescue and no lost Vahi.

But no Vahi, keep in mind.

 

Well, I suppose an alternate way to it is possible. But his plan included the Vahi, so letting the Metru go until at least that point was wise. (He might not have known what was needed to get there, but that's the point of the rule #1; if you just kill them you never know what you missed out on.)

 

 

Now, since Makuta got the idea of actually hijacking the entire Matoran Universe because his initial plan failed, then I see even less reason to let the Metru live.

Well, think about it -- he got this idea thanks to their actions. He probably saw this as proving that they were more of an asset than a problem. Really, what serious problems did they cause him anyways? He won, and just a thousand years (in the face of 100,000) after the main attack, so it would seem they were more of a help to him than a serious hindrance. Again, they altered what routes the plan took, but this is normal and true of nearly everything he did anyways, it's not specific to them. Makuta was always adjusting his plans. He wasn't going to just kill people the moment they made him rethink something.

 

What you've been describing is basically the specific details of how they caused things to move through a particular path instead of other particular paths. Neither path would seem to be incredibly more difficult for him.

 

 

 

About knowing Mata Nui was dying, I'm kind of thinking I'll just have him know it, and if it's true that he didn't canonically, just brush that off as fanfic prerogative, unless we can think of a better alternative. It really seems implied that he knew, and that governed the timing (after the protocage).

 

Now, since Makuta got the idea of actually hijacking the entire Matoran Universe because his initial plan failed, then I see even less reason to let the Metru live.

For this I invoke high-speed subterranean tunnels intended primarily for theoretical maintenance robots that are in turn repaired by systems at buildings in the MU, which are in turn maintained by Matoran. He would first have to go down through the waterfall into the SC dome, then go to one of these buildings. From there he could hitch a ride in a cargo section of one of these robots (intended to carry replacement parts to repair locations), and leave it at Metru Nui. I portray them as really high speed; basically secret robot superhighways, so the biggest delay would be swimming and falling down through the SC's sky. And I have some of them going to the Core Processor itself (and more to it, but it's spoilers for my story :P).

 

Alternatively, it's confirmed that power from Karda Nui comes up in Metru Nui and is relayed from there to other cities throughout the MU, apparently through underwater or shallowish underground lines, so if there are tunnels associated with these, my repair robot theory wouldn't be necessary; he could use these higher up power lines. (I use that theory for much more than just this, though.)

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Yeah, in Bionicle (and Hero Factory, for sure) there's a problem where characters try to attack other characters, and their attacks are useless. Such as somebody getting "hit by shadow" and basically being fine.


"Well, Mr. Louie, that leaves big Max all alone for you."

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Long post, and you raise some good points.

1) I get the sense Makuta has a sort of Toa-code-like rule about killing, in the sense Greg once mentioned that if you kill an enemy, you lose any benefit they might have given you. Makuta is not a murderer; he's power hungry.

I agree that Makuta does not kill unless it is necessary. I was thinking, however, that at the point between the Cataclysm and the protocage being applied, the Toa Metru are the only beings left in the city that know his true motives and actively oppose him. He seemingly tried to topple their boat while they were crossing the sea, and it almost seemed like he had given up on the Vahi when Vakama showed it to him. He is pleasantly surprised, then enraged when it slips out of his grasp after all. I took it to mean that once the plan was set into motion, he had decided to abandon the somewhat iffy aspect of using a never before seen Legendary Kanohi to do the job.With no apparent use left in them, he could at least have made an attempt to infect them or something, maybe even after they reached the island. Makuta employed infected masks on Rahi to control them, and on Lewa too once the Toa arrived. I see no reason to do this unless he wanted active control of the destined heroes. Infecting the Turaga and the Matoran beforehand could have helped further his goals by making them follow him. Maybe he tried, though. As the Turaga revealed in 2003, they had a cave in Po-Wahi full of Kraata they had captured. Later a Shadow Kraata pops up, and infects several Matoran before the Toa Nuva show up to subdue it. At that point (can't remember if this was after his defeat by Takanuva, I think it was) Teridax was evidently struggling to regain control of the situation... like he might have done after breaking out of the protocage in Metru Nui.

Good to keep in mind that it's always possible to theorize explanations to make nearly any canon event understandable if we use enough imagination, so that's more the kind of thing I'm personally asking for discussion of, rather than using imagination to think of problems with it (but then that is important too, to show things readers might be confused on to avoid that confusion, so yeah :P).

I like thinking up both solutions as well as problems with the storyline. As far as villains go, though, I suppose I'm more of a pragmatic combatant. Since Teridax wanted control, I just have to wonder why he did not use his powers to take direct control over his enemies. I'd be completely fine with it if Teridax had used a Stasis Cage (they could have portrayed it like shadowy tendrils or something if they absolutely wanted to) to capture Vakama and then taunted him for five minutes until the other Toa showed up and surprised him with the protocage ability. As it stands, though, I only see Teridax mindlessly using the same ability over and over to no effect, until he finally defeats himself. It's the kind of boss fight I have the least respect for. :P

Also, to apply that to the first point, basically LEGO had to build a world where the goals of the enemy balanced well against the highly powerful nature of that enemy, or very little storytelling beyond "bad guy kills everybody, the end" would be possible. So to try to turn Makuta into some kind of serial killer, considering how powerful he is, doesn't seem reasonable to me. All that would accomplish would be to make nearly the entire story fall apart, yanno?

It's true, and I like what Teridax is. I just think that if he were to really dismiss Vakama as a threat instead of appearing to fight him properly, he could at least have brushed him off the edge of the platform or effortlessly subdued him, before the whole "he's not alone!" line and subsequent imprisonment from the other Toa arriving.

Well, do we know for sure that's what Makuta had in mind? It's apparent attempted murder, but if we assume for sake of argument that the entire scene is canon (which seems the only possibility, since the Toa did survive), then logically he must have been holding back his powers.

Holding back only goes so far when you use a power strong enough to kill a Turaga who is holding a shield between himself and the attack. While Turaga are rather physically frail in the movies, I don't think the attack would be entirely healthy for any Toa who got caught by it.

Then most likely IMO once he was protocaged he realized the potential usefulness of these Toa and would not have killed them from that point on, and was content to mostly play along with things, except he had to contrive his own escape, and then sought to get the Vahi.

I can accept this. Still wondering about whether or not he was genuinely making bad decisions or toying with Vakama in their fight.I also wonder why he did not go for the Vahi as soon as he was free and the Toa Metru were gone from the vicinity. Surely he could just have dived down, picked it up, and teleported it to safety. It would likely not have taken more than an hour, provided the search for a bright orange object underwater was too complicated to be completed in minutes.

I don't recall this Pohatu thing, but Greg did confirm the Shadow Hand power can't stop once started. IMO what he meant by that is basically that it has to fly out and has to immediately pull back toward the user, but the pulling force after that point (about halfway back, or maybe less) becomes controllable. In the movie, it was about there that it stopped pulling Lhikan's shield away, if bad memory serves, and that is lightweight so has little of its own momentum. A big rock, though, will have its own momentum once the second step is done, so even though the Hand is controllable for that brief split second, it's too late to stop the stone. The majority of the force of the Hand should be in the second step IMO.

The scene with Chirox is the page image for Shadow Hand on BIONICLEsector01. He conjures the thing from his blades, grabbing Pohatu with it. The next image shows the opened hand near Chirox, with Pohatu falling below him. Apparently he just grabbed and tossed him, or perhaps just fastened the grip and released. Chirox was said to have more control over his Shadow Hand than many other Makuta, after all. Maybe it's just practice that is needed.It's also true that the giant pillar Makuta Teridax grabbed would not be stopped just because he let go of it. At least we have an explanation for why he didn't just teleport, since he cannot use more than one power at once.

Well, similar to the "Toa-code-like" apparent rule, it seems Makuta values personal honor in some sense, so that a deal is a deal to him. It reminds me of LOST's final season with all the "rules", and the comment one of the producers made that it's never revealed whether these rules are absolute or whether the Man in Black imposes them on himself out of a refusal to sink too low. Either way, they are in effect, so the villain works around them.

I had a guy like this in the BZPRPG, myself, though my mindset would allow breaking such promises - quite suddenly and violently - if it's untraceable by others. :lol:

And yes, he would have had situations where it could work (teleport self to Ta-Koro, teleport Vakama to Le-Wahi, then grab Vahi... assuming he knows where it is), but IMO he simply gave up on messing with a Legendary Mask after that. After all, the reason he commissioned it was no longer available at that point, and since the protocage he'd changed his goal to something much grander.

This is very likely. After the Matoran were awakened, he wouldn't need to speed up time any more, since it would be better to spend the time on devising new plans and letting the internal MU business run its course.

So probably he simply lost interest in the Vahi as he had a way to power that inspired more confidence and made him want to take less huge risks.

So killing the only being who is actively keeping the world stable and then revive the body within a very narrow time frame is NOT a huge risk? :PSpeaking of which: If they had waited a day or a week with using the Ignika (with Makuta in place in the system), would it have had the same effect? Assuming the body had not deteriorated too much, would it have mattered if it was Mata Nui himself who was attached to the body? The spirit lingers for a while after death before it fades, we know that, but if another spirit had entered the lifeless body I don't see any reason why the spreading life energy would care about whose body it is actually kick-starting.

 

Without the Toa Metru, there would have been no Great Rescue and no lost Vahi.

But no Vahi, keep in mind.Well, I suppose an alternate way to it is possible. But his plan included the Vahi, so letting the Metru go until at least that point was wise. (He might not have known what was needed to get there, but that's the point of the rule #1; if you just kill them you never know what you missed out on.)

 

Makuta set the Cataclysm in motion even after asking Vakama if the mask was completed (he asks as Dume in the Coliseum, right before he starts the "test" of the new Toa) and getting a negative reply. I don't think he expected to get it at that point.

 

Now, since Makuta got the idea of actually hijacking the entire Matoran Universe because his initial plan failed, then I see even less reason to let the Metru live.

Well, think about it -- he got this idea thanks to their actions. He probably saw this as proving that they were more of an asset than a problem. Really, what serious problems did they cause him anyways? He won, and just a thousand years (in the face of 100,000) after the main attack, so it would seem they were more of a help to him than a serious hindrance. Again, they altered what routes the plan took, but this is normal and true of nearly everything he did anyways, it's not specific to them. Makuta was always adjusting his plans. He wasn't going to just kill people the moment they made him rethink something.

 

What you've been describing is basically the specific details of how they caused things to move through a particular path instead of other particular paths. Neither path would seem to be incredibly more difficult for him.

Well, there are many ways that it could have played out, I just think that killing Vakama at the Great Barrier wouldn't have done much too or from. Heck, considering that Teridax tried to grab him with the shadow hand even when he was using the Vahi (the attack that killed Lhikan), killing Vakama with anything but disintegration blasts would apparently have let him loot the Vahi from his corpse (even if he would be surprised to find it).Oh, and maintenance tunnels and/or disabled power conduits do sound reasonable. Did we ever get an estimate of what the mutagen in the water would have done to pure antidermis, by the way? It mutates antidermic beings in armor, apparently.

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Yeah, in Bionicle (and Hero Factory, for sure) there's a problem where characters try to attack other characters, and their attacks are useless. Such as somebody getting "hit by shadow" and basically being fine.

Sadly it's very common in nearly all action-adventure fiction. I was just watching a movie and there was a guy (I don't wanna give spoilers but if you've seen it you know which one I mean) executing two good guys, with another good guy watching. The one that the watcher wasn't great friends with, who the audience didn't know, was dispatched quickly, but the bad guy made the other go through a long series of buildups (move into position... stand there while I slooooowly line up the shot.. look around mournfully for a while.....), and of course more good guys show up in the nick of time.

 

It's kind of a meme, and I personally work hard to try to avoid it. I think they do it because in some less critical audience members it actually produces more suspense. But for me it always ruins the "suspension of disbelief" because they do it so often and so repeatedly ("they" being, like... everybody) that all it does for me is give away that they aren't serious about letting the character die anyways, so there was never anything to have suspense for.

 

I thought in that scene it would have been far cooler if they would have actually sacrificed the character, or if the character would have made a desperate self-defense attack and managed to pull it off, so at least it isn't the old "someone randomly shows up just in time" ploy (which could happen sometimes but it should be statistically very rare).

 

 

 

To several points you made, Katuko, about things Makuta didn't do that are in between killing and doing nothing (major), I actually have a theory but I'm using it as a central part of my plot so I can't say it. :P All I can say for now is to repeat the general idea that as a mastermind he must have seen the course he took as better (whether correctly or not) in ways that need not be obvious to us, and also that it seems he did have a bit of a "character flaw" (in terms of achieving his goals; obviously it's hard to see anything that hampers evil goals as a flaw :P) that he tended to rely on servants to do things.

 

He personally could have captured them and forced them to be infected, but it seems he preferred to let Kraata and Rahi try to do his work alone and these are significantly dumber and weaker than him.

 

Sometimes I get the sense that he somewhat enjoys setting up "chess" type situations in the small scale against foes too, avoiding the easier wins because they're more boring, just for intellectual stimulation. :shrugs: That could especially answer this:

 

Holding back only goes so far when you use a power strong enough to kill a Turaga who is holding a shield between himself and the attack. While Turaga are rather physically frail in the movies, I don't think the attack would be entirely healthy for any Toa who got caught by it.

 

So, he might have a "moral" or a "rule for fun" even that he tries to make level playing fields. He could have been content with Vakama either dying or living, and simply chose to use that "fair-ified" challenge to decide which it would be, instead of for example flipping a coin, and didn't realize they knew how to make a protocage etc. He would have plans for both contingencies and maybe he felt neither was better than the other, so saw it as a chance for some fun.

 

And/or the Shadow Hand simply wouldn't be inherently dangerous to a Toa. It didn't immediately kill the two DH. And maybe they can control, at the firing, the strength of it too. If so then he likely dialed it up for grabbing a Toa, not having a clue the Turaga could get there in time or would do so. I wouldn't rely on this assumption though; it's just as possible it comes with a standard strength and he would choose not to use it if he was facing an enemy that couldn't handle it (and had reason to make it fair, etc.). There's some evidence for it, though, since the Hand he'd just used to grab the DH was waaaaay larger.

 

 

Speaking of which: If they had waited a day or a week with using the Ignika (with Makuta in place in the system), would it have had the same effect? Assuming the body had not deteriorated too much, would it have mattered if it was Mata Nui himself who was attached to the body? The spirit lingers for a while after death before it fades, we know that, but if another spirit had entered the lifeless body I don't see any reason why the spreading life energy would care about whose body it is actually kick-starting.

I don't recall if this was ever cleared up.

 

Did we ever get an estimate of what the mutagen in the water would have done to pure antidermis, by the way? It mutates antidermic beings in armor, apparently.

No idea to this either.

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My theory is that he just teleported his antidermis to Metru Nui after abandoning Maxilos. Not exactly creative, but far more practical. And I think he did look for the Vahi, just unsuccessfully after he was freed. Also, wouldn't the Matoran have been less likely to rebel once he had control of the robot if he had killed/infected the Metru and made himself their "benevolent savior?"


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My theory is that he just teleported his antidermis to Metru Nui after abandoning Maxilos. Not exactly creative, but far more practical. And I think he did look for the Vahi, just unsuccessfully after he was freed. Also, wouldn't the Matoran have been less likely to rebel once he had control of the robot if he had killed/infected the Metru and made himself their "benevolent savior?"

I'd better bring this up in case I'm wrong -- I think Makuta can't use their powers in loose-cloud form. However I just tried to check this on BS01 and couldn't find confirmation. (I've based fanfic moments off that assumption so I hope I'm not wrong lol.)

 

I didn't think of that with the Vahi. Do we know he wasn't actually swimming around and just got unlucky, while Vakama got lucky and found it first? As far as I recall, that's possible.

 

It may also be that he assumed Vakama wouldn't go for it right away; the other Toa didn't seem happy about it after all. Maybe he just thought he had more time. :shrugs:

 

 

To the final question, maybe maybe not -- it might have had a counterproductive effect in making them angry and want to resist him all the more. Of course, then he could just infect them all, but I think he wanted genuine respect or something close to it. That was how this all started after all.

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Sadly it's very common in nearly all action-adventure fiction. I was just watching a movie and there was a guy (I don't wanna give spoilers but if you've seen it you know which one I mean) executing two good guys, with another good guy watching. The one that the watcher wasn't great friends with, who the audience didn't know, was dispatched quickly, but the bad guy made the other go through a long series of buildups (move into position... stand there while I slooooowly line up the shot.. look around mournfully for a while.....), and of course more good guys show up in the nick of time.

It's very, very common, yes. I am personally a fan of avoiding it as well, either by having decided to kill the character beforehand or by making the heroes arrive before there is time for any needlessly delayed execution.

To several points you made, Katuko, about things Makuta didn't do that are in between killing and doing nothing (major), I actually have a theory but I'm using it as a central part of my plot so I can't say it. :P

It's not like we're gonna steal your fan-fic ideas, mate. ;)

So, he might have a "moral" or a "rule for fun" even that he tries to make level playing fields. He could have been content with Vakama either dying or living, and simply chose to use that "fair-ified" challenge to decide which it would be, instead of for example flipping a coin, and didn't realize they knew how to make a protocage etc. He would have plans for both contingencies and maybe he felt neither was better than the other, so saw it as a chance for some fun.

Well, personally I'd "flip a coin" by... flipping a Toa. See if he breaks when he lands or not. What you said reminds me of this image from an old BZP thread, though.

And/or the Shadow Hand simply wouldn't be inherently dangerous to a Toa. It didn't immediately kill the two DH. And maybe they can control, at the firing, the strength of it too. If so then he likely dialed it up for grabbing a Toa, not having a clue the Turaga could get there in time or would do so. I wouldn't rely on this assumption though; it's just as possible it comes with a standard strength and he would choose not to use it if he was facing an enemy that couldn't handle it (and had reason to make it fair, etc.). There's some evidence for it, though, since the Hand he'd just used to grab the DH was waaaaay larger.

That is true. He showed a strange amount of control compared to his later attacks when he grabbed the Dark Hunters. Perhaps his slightly unstable state of mind afterwards made him choose not to do precision control, or perhaps we didn't get to see precision control because he never hit anything but rocks.

 

My theory is that he just teleported his antidermis to Metru Nui after abandoning Maxilos. Not exactly creative, but far more practical. And I think he did look for the Vahi, just unsuccessfully after he was freed. Also, wouldn't the Matoran have been less likely to rebel once he had control of the robot if he had killed/infected the Metru and made himself their "benevolent savior?"

I'd better bring this up in case I'm wrong -- I think Makuta can't use their powers in loose-cloud form. However I just tried to check this on BS01 and couldn't find confirmation. (I've based fanfic moments off that assumption so I hope I'm not wrong lol.)

 

They cannot. Otherwise Tridax would have teleported away from Trinuma after losing his body, or used some other power on him. Instead he just hovered around, trying to use some form of mental attack because that was all he had left. Unfortunately Trinuma was immune like all other Order agents, and then Tridax got disintegrated.

I didn't think of that with the Vahi. Do we know he wasn't actually swimming around and just got unlucky, while Vakama got lucky and found it first? As far as I recall, that's possible.

It fell fairly close to the pillar they were on, and I imagine a power like Magnetism could let Makuta do broad sweeps of the water until he happened to attract a loose piece of metal.

It may also be that he assumed Vakama wouldn't go for it right away; the other Toa didn't seem happy about it after all. Maybe he just thought he had more time. :shrugs:

That is also an option. When it comes to such a powerful artifact, though, there isn't really any reason to let it lie ungarded for a long period of time.

To the final question, maybe maybe not -- it might have had a counterproductive effect in making them angry and want to resist him all the more. Of course, then he could just infect them all, but I think he wanted genuine respect or something close to it. That was how this all started after all.

He did indeed want genuine respect. as we saw on the island of Mata Nui, however, he was not beyond infecting Matoran, at least not after the Toa arrived. He spread infection in Po-Koro by letting Ahkmou transfer the taint on Kolhii balls, while Lewa got knocked out and fitted with an infected mask after Rahi attacks in the jungle. Eventually he also wanted to tear the Toa Nuva apart by using powers such as Fear and Anger, so after he failed to make the Matoran follow him I don't think he was all that opposed to just making them slaves. As you said before, he had a grander scheme building, and once that went through he didn't seem to care about respect anymore at all.

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It's not like we're gonna steal your fan-fic ideas, mate. ;)

I mean it's major spoilers for my plot. :P

 

Well, personally I'd "flip a coin" by... flipping a Toa. See if he breaks when he lands or not.

Greg actually used something like that with the Piraka flashbacks in Legacy of Evil. :lol:

 

In all seriousness, just in case you're at all serious lol, he couldn't make it clear he was manipulating if Vakama did survive (whether by letting him live or by unexpected means), so if I'm right about that preference (and the Koli thing certainly implies it, heh), Vakama would have to believe Makuta was legitimately beaten. Just flipping the Toa and walking away when he didn't die wouldn't work for that.

 

But I'm wondering if there's an alternative interpretation that would "coolify" that scene.

 

I think the Koli scene is unavoidable, but I'm changing some scenes I think could be done better in minor ways. I'm getting a vibe that there is for this one but it's just like, on the tip of the tongue as it were... Of course, if I think of it I probably won't say it to save it for writing it and avoid spoiling it. :P Anywho. (I would keep the basic actions but maybe they can be expanded on in a way that I could just say the movie skipped, for example.)

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I think the Koli scene is unavoidable, but I'm changing some scenes I think could be done better in minor ways. I'm getting a vibe that there is for this one but it's just like, on the tip of the tongue as it were... Of course, if I think of it I probably won't say it to save it for writing it and avoid spoiling it. :P Anywho. (I would keep the basic actions but maybe they can be expanded on in a way that I could just say the movie skipped, for example.)

The movie didn't handle it all that well, I felt, and I know Greg agrees that the Kolhii match was not a proper fight at all. Still, the scriptwrites decided to have Takanuva use his Kolhii move to deal the decisive blow, with anything after that less of a fight and more of plot developing.It's certainly possible to rewrite it to be better, simply by having the "game" swiftly degenerate into an actual fight. It could still be finished by a desperate maneuver from Takanuva, and Teridax could still have his ploy set into motion. The only difference would be a bit more chip damage on his lair and armor before they got that far. :)

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Sorry for being so late, but...

For a while I assumed he knew Mata Nui's health was going down and wanted it to a certain state, but I think someone in a recent topic debunked that; Makuta didn't know. (Although, I'm not sure if he could have gotten Mata Nui out of the robot if he didn't die... some confusion still here.)[/size]

 

About knowing Mata Nui was dying, I'm kind of thinking I'll just have him know it, and if it's true that he didn't canonically, just brush that off as fanfic prerogative, unless we can think of a better alternative. It really seems implied that he knew, and that governed the timing (after the protocage).

I'm going to stick my neck up here - this is where I debunked the "Makuta knows the timing of Mata Nui's death, and knows that he's dying" theory. I'm sticking to my hat. Which begs the question of why Makuta waited for 1000 years before all the events of 2001 happened. Three reasons come to my mind. :) 1) Pride - we know that Teridax has a boatload of this. Running to his organization after all this happened would make him look incompetant, especially just to find some Toa. 2) Teridax fully expected the Mata to show up on schedule. But when they didn't, he probably went with the "any day now mentality". After, say, 100 years, he probably knew that something was wrong. But... 3) Teridax didn't know where the Toa Mata were, or that they had lost their memories. Or were losing them. If he knew that, then he could have filled their heads with lies. But if he tells the Toa Mata to awaken Mata Nui, everyone else will get tipped off that Makuta wants Mata Nui reawakened. Not that great. Also, Makuta needs the Matoran back in Mata Nui for him to be reawakened anyway. (Thus why "faked defeats= better plan") That's true once the events of 2004-05 have gone down, and I think bones gave a good explanation for why they did. The other thing that came to mind is that Makuta could have had a contingincy somewhere to kill Mata Nui off, if he wasn't already dying, that he was working on and we never saw because the "story frame" was out on Mata Nui. :shrugs:

 

Anyway, you write your stories how you want to, bones, but I might as well put in a word for the canon answer. :P

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