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Damage of Elements


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#1 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 19 2013 - 06:27 PM

So how do some elements do damage? Like shadow energy, when it hits you, what damage would it do? Or sonics (besides shattering armor)


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#2 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted May 19 2013 - 08:23 PM

Um, it's that element. A fireball would burn you.

 

Some elements, namely Gravity and Magnetism, are just ways to manipulate your enemy. Psionics is mental energy, so mental pain.

 

Shadow would be a concussive blast. I see shadows as creating solid objects, which is what I think it is.

 

Sonics is sound. It's just sound. 


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#3 Offline Heir of the Chronicler

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Posted May 19 2013 - 08:49 PM

Yeah, some of Bionicle's more far-fetched powers require creative license and a little imagination. For example, Hewkii Inika's weapon was supposed to shoot a mixture of rock and lightning. Rock and lightning? How does that work? Ah, well.

 

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#4 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 19 2013 - 09:02 PM

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something. 


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#5 Offline Chro

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Posted May 19 2013 - 10:10 PM

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something. 

Well I suppose you could interpret it however you'd like to... as Heir said, it can be a little fuzzy in canon.


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#6 Offline airvortex

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Posted May 20 2013 - 07:51 AM

I see shadow as being the same as light, only with the effect being more of constrictive, cold sort of sensation whereas light is more of a burning or exposing (so to speak) sensation.


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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 20 2013 - 08:30 AM

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something. 

I see shadow as being the same as light, only with the effect being more of constrictive, cold sort of sensation whereas light is more of a burning or exposing (so to speak) sensation.

Agreed, airvortex -- though it might be something like frostbite so might feel like burning. But more likely it's just clammy, since it's not actual cold energy. Light can make some heat, so shadow should make some coldness, but not a lot.

 

Add to this that both light and shadow can physically move objects in Bionicle (shadow hand, etc.).

 

 

Sonics could deafen you, annoy you, rattle your armor, maybe make you lose your grip on your Toa Tool or your mask fall off perhaps. And push you a little.

 

Then there's the deception uses -- mimic a trusted ally's voice from behind a corner to lure someone into an ambush.


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#8 Offline Chro

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Posted May 20 2013 - 08:49 AM

I always think of sonics with some sort of sci-fi, less-realistic powers... shattering things, using a specific frequency to target a certain enemy, etc.


Edited by Chro, May 20 2013 - 08:50 AM.

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#9 Offline ToaOfAwesome

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Posted May 20 2013 - 03:47 PM

My personal opinion on shadow is that it's mental/emotional. It's like a waking nightmare, or perhaps like the absence of something within you (YOUR VERY SOUL!!! :evilmad:). However it is in a sort of pulse making it as though you were blasted with emotional pain/emptiness, thus making you feel... bad stuff I guess. To illustrate my point I will take an actual quote I heard from a five year old at the store who's father wouldn't go get her ice cream. The quote is OUCH DADDY, YOU HURT MY FEELINGS!!! While she probably didn't actually mean that the way I am portraying it... I think you get what I mean.  ;)

 

As for sonics, I thought most would know this. It has been scientifically proven and with some even tested in real life that sound can:

-levitate objects

-shatter many materials including glass

-alter thought

-heat objects

-move at the speed of sound (who knew? :o)

-and last but not least, be very VERY loud.

 

Magnetism and gravity can obviously manipulate your environment, and can both do such in very powerful ways (especially gravity).

 

Well I hope all that was helpful.


Edited by ToaOfAwesome, May 20 2013 - 03:55 PM.

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#10 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 20 2013 - 04:22 PM

Sound waves are just vibrations in the air. Our ear picks up these vibrations and the brain translates them into waht we perceive sound to be. Thus, just about anything makes a sound. Only the things that do not create sufficient motion in the air (or which creates frequencies that we cannot register) appear silent.Sound turned up to the max results in air pounding heavily into you, or vibrating with such a frequency that you start vibrating as well. As has been shown in the story, this can be used to deafen someone, knock them over, or cause objects to shake apart. On the flip side, you can also silence any sound in the vicinity by absorbing it, but we're talking damage here.
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#11 Offline Atamai

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Posted May 20 2013 - 04:29 PM

As for sonics, I thought most would know this. It has been scientifically proven and with some even tested in real life that sound can:

-levitate objects

-shatter many materials including glass

-alter thought

-heat objects

-move at the speed of sound (who knew? :o)

-and last but not least, be very VERY loud.

To add to that, sound is vibration, and everything that exists is at a different vibrational frequency. Solids are at a low frequency, and liquids and gases are at a higher frequency, I believe.

 

So maybe it's possible for a Toa of Sonics to alter the vibrational frequency of an object, scrambling its molecules and thus resulting in a new shape or state of matter. Any thoughts?     


Edited by Atamai, Jun 10 2013 - 03:46 AM.

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#12 Offline Chro

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Posted May 21 2013 - 10:46 AM

As for sonics, I thought most would know this. It has been scientifically proven and with some even tested in real life that sound can:

-levitate objects

-shatter many materials including glass

-alter thought

-heat objects

-move at the speed of sound (who knew? :o)

-and last but not least, be very VERY loud.

To add to that, sound is vibration, and everything that exists is at a different vibrational frequency. Solids are at a low frequency, and liquids and gases are at a higher frequency, I believe. So maybe it's possible for a Toa of Sonics to alter the vibrational frequency of an object, scrambling its molecules and thus resulting in a new shape or state of matter. Any thoughts?     

But that would probably take a crazy level of control, like twice Helryx's. :lol:


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#13 Offline Atamai

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Posted May 21 2013 - 12:21 PM

 

As for sonics, I thought most would know this. It has been scientifically proven and with some even tested in real life that sound can:

-levitate objects

-shatter many materials including glass

-alter thought

-heat objects

-move at the speed of sound (who knew? :o)

-and last but not least, be very VERY loud.

To add to that, sound is vibration, and everything that exists is at a different vibrational frequency. Solids are at a low frequency, and liquids and gases are at a higher frequency, I believe. So maybe it's possible for a Toa of Sonics to alter the vibrational frequency of an object, scrambling its molecules and thus resulting in a new shape or state of matter. Any thoughts?     

But that would probably take a crazy level of control, like twice Helryx's. :lol:

Maybe a Toa Nuva of Sonics could dish out that kind of power, aren't the Toa Nuva more powerful than Helryx?  


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#14 Offline Chro

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Posted May 21 2013 - 01:08 PM

More powerful, yes. But I believe it was said that Helryx had much more skill than them because she'd worked on fine-tuning her elemental control. If I remember correctly, basically, she could use a smaller amount of EE to get a larger effect compared to any ordinary Toa of Water.


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#15 Offline YoYoFantaFanta

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Posted May 21 2013 - 03:34 PM

Another point I might add is that if you hear an awful shrieking sound, you just don't think about anything else except making it stop. That might also be how sonics damages others.


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#16 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 21 2013 - 04:58 PM

Shadow seems like it would merely block light, but a slight chilling effect is possible too, along with force of motion (soild shadow hitting you). I also thought shadow hitting you would be a small moral light drain, making you feel sick, but that's probably just me. 


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#17 Offline Baron Von Nebula

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Posted May 21 2013 - 05:32 PM

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something. 

>I see shadow as being the same as light, only with the effect being more of constrictive, cold sort of sensation whereas light is more of a burning or exposing (so to speak) sensation.

Agreed, airvortex -- though it might be something like frostbite so might feel like burning. But more likely it's just clammy, since it's not actual cold energy. Light can make some heat, so shadow should make some coldness, but not a lot.

 

Add to this that both light and shadow can physically move objects in Bionicle (shadow hand, etc.).

 

 

Sonics could deafen you, annoy you, rattle your armor, maybe make you lose your grip on your Toa Tool or your mask fall off perhaps. And push you a little.

 

Then there's the deception uses -- mimic a trusted ally's voice from behind a corner to lure someone into an ambush.

 

I think Sonics can do more than that- didn't Dark Mirror Krakua shatter Gali's armor?


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#18 Offline Atamai

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Posted May 21 2013 - 07:36 PM

I think Sonics can do more than that- didn't Dark Mirror Krakua shatter Gali's armor?

Indeed he did.


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#19 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted May 22 2013 - 02:02 AM

Perhaps shadow affects a target by damaging (even draining) the inner light in beings, which explains why the Makuta were immune to them. But all other beings had some inner light in them, so that might have been what the shadow powers affected and caused pain, physical collision etc.

 

And light would do the opposite, with affecting inner shadow.


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#20 Offline airvortex

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Posted May 22 2013 - 10:23 AM

One element I have a hard time getting around is plasma. If it is just extreme heat, then can't a toa of fire control it as well? (and by extension, toa of ice limitedly as well?)


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#21 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 22 2013 - 10:33 AM

One element I have a hard time getting around is plasma. If it is just extreme heat, then can't a toa of fire control it as well? (and by extension, toa of ice limitedly as well?)

 

Plasma is not extreme heat, it's ionized gas. This can be caused by extreme heat, but it's not extreme heat of itself. Theoretically, a Toa of Fire or Ice could create Plasma if they could contain a lot of their elemental energy in a really small space, but they wouldn't be able to manipulate or control it, and it would dissipate quickly.  


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#22 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 22 2013 - 10:37 AM

Plasma is superheated, non-combusting gas, basically. The combustion part is the key aspect of Fire (and they produce less heat themselves). The ionization is caused by extreme heat, more so than a Toa of Fire can make, yet a Toa of Fire also gets the special ability to control just heat directly while apparently Plasma doesn't.

 

I usually put it something like this -- Plasma = gas + superheat, while Fire = combustible materials + enough heat to make them combust. Plasma goes to the fourth state of matter directly, while Fire 'cheats' to get there.

 

The two probably can do some things to each others' elements, though, just like how a Toa of Ice can freeze what a Toa of Water makes. There's always some overlap, but the two are different things.


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#23 Offline airvortex

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Posted May 22 2013 - 10:41 AM

One element I have a hard time getting around is plasma. If it is just extreme heat, then can't a toa of fire control it as well? (and by extension, toa of ice limitedly as well?)

 

Plasma is not extreme heat, it's ionized gas. This can be caused by extreme heat, but it's not extreme heat of itself. Theoretically, a Toa of Fire or Ice could create Plasma if they could contain a lot of their elemental energy in a really small space, but they wouldn't be able to manipulate or control it, and it would dissipate quickly.  

 

 

Plasma is superheated, non-combusting gas, basically. The combustion part is the key aspect of Fire (and they produce less heat themselves). The ionization is caused by extreme heat, more so than a Toa of Fire can make, yet a Toa of Fire also gets the special ability to control just heat directly while apparently Plasma doesn't.

 

I usually put it something like this -- Plasma = gas + superheat, while Fire = combustible materials + enough heat to make them combust. Plasma goes to the fourth state of matter directly, while Fire 'cheats' to get there.

 

The two probably can do some things to each others' elements, though, just like how a Toa of Ice can freeze what a Toa of Water makes. There's always some overlap, but the two are different things.

Ah, I see now. Thanks for clearing that up for me. So theoretically a toa of plasma could indirectly control fire? Since the flames are ionized gases given off by the process of combustion?


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#24 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 22 2013 - 10:48 AM

Ah, I see now. Thanks for clearing that up for me. So theoretically a toa of plasma could indirectly control fire? Since the flames are ionized gases given off by the process of combustion?

Sort of, yeah. As far as I know. 

 

They could control the ionized gas given off by the combustion, but not the actual combustion itself. 


Edited by fishers64, May 22 2013 - 11:05 AM.

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#25 Offline bonesiii

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Posted May 22 2013 - 11:02 AM

I think it would be very limited. Greg confirmed that Plasma is not a category containing Fire in Bionicle; they are two separate things. So ongoing combustion inside Fire makes it not (fully?) controllable by Plasma. But maybe "bits and pieces" of it would be controllable.


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#26 Offline Madara: Mangekyou Master

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Posted May 22 2013 - 11:39 AM

Hmmm, that's very interesting. I suppose we didn't really get much of a chance to see Plasma in action, outside of the Bohrok Kal.I believe that a Toa of Sonics would probably be able to dampen sounds reaching his ears (to offset the weakness he had as a Matoran). 


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#27 Offline Chro

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Posted May 22 2013 - 02:53 PM

I believe that a Toa of Sonics would probably be able to dampen sounds reaching his ears (to offset the weakness he had as a Matoran). 

Yes, they could definitely do that.


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#28 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 22 2013 - 04:06 PM

Or enhance the sounds of conversations, to eavesdrop or tell where an enemy is, Arthon style. 


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#29 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 22 2013 - 09:19 PM

Well my theory is that a Toa of Fire would have some control over plasma, since plasma is hot gas, and Toa of Fire can drain heat from an area, they could possibly absorb heat from plasma. 


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#30 Offline Chro

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Posted May 25 2013 - 02:34 AM

Well yeah, they could absorb the heat, but controlling the plasma itself is something else entirely.


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#31 Offline Ice the Great

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Posted May 25 2013 - 04:05 AM

I'll break down my theories for each element by, well, element:Air - Suffocation and/or concussive force (blowing you into the air and falling, smacking you into hard things, smacking hard things into you if hey can lift said thing)Earth - Concussive force (making hard things smack into you). Crushing.Fire - Burning (clearly), suffocation (if sustained for long periods in an enclosed area), explosive force, matter change (increasing temperature of target body until it melts and evaporates).Gravity - Crushing force (causing things to fall, causing you to fall from high places using temporary gravity reversal (making you fall up for a while before going back down), or simply multiplying gravity until the victim's body collapses).Ice - Freezing. Asphyxiation (enclose the target and maintain the prison until the air runs out). Piercing/ slicing force (fragments of ice, spears of ice, exploding orbs of ice).Iron - Difficult. However, given the materials, you can fashion surprise weapons with which to strike unexpectedly. Removal of trace iron from target's body Magneto-style.The Green - Strangulation (making plants choke), crushing force.Light - Burning, cutting.Lightning - Electrocution, burning (ligtning causing a fire).Magnetism - Manipulating magnetic object to use for crushing. Iron removal (see iron - Magneto used magnetic power, not iron control, but they could both do it).Plasma - Burning, melting, atomization, asphyxiation (replacing air with plasma), crushing (densely-packed plasma hitting as if solid).Psionics - hypnosis, insanity, mind-killing.Shadow - Concussive, explosive (manipulating shadows inside victim's body, tearing them apart from the inside). Strangulation.Sonics - Disintegration (Sound is just vibrations of air - theoretically, you could use it to vibrate someone into dust). Concussive force (sound causing things to blow away).Stone - Concussive force, crushing, cutting (stone shrapnel).Water - Drowning, radical dehydration (remove all water from the target - a surprisingly effective means of death). Crushing force (shooting someone up into the air and making them fall, picking up heavy objects with water and throwing them, smashing them into things with water).

Edited by Ice the Great, May 25 2013 - 04:29 PM.

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#32 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted May 25 2013 - 10:33 AM

I'll break down my theories for each element by, well, element:Air - Suffocation and/or concussive force (blowing you into the air and falling, smacking you into hard things, smacking hard things into you if hey can lift said thing)Earth - Concussive force (making hard things smack into you). Crushing.Fire - Burning (clearly), suffocation (if sustained for long periods in an enclosed area), explosive force, matter change (increasing temperature of target body until it melts and evaporates).Gravity - Crushing force (causing things to fall, causing you to fall from high places using temporary gravity reversal (making you fall up for a while before going back down), or simply multiplying gravity until the victim's body collapses).Ice - Freezing. Asphyxiation (enclose the target and maintain the prison until the air runs out). Piercing/ slicing force (fragments of ice, spears of ice, exploding orbs of ice).Iron - Difficult. However, given the materials, you can fashion surprise weapons with which to strike unexpectedly. Removal of trace iron from target's body Magneto-style.The Green - Strangulation (making plants choke), crushing force.Light - Burning, cutting.Lightning - Electrocution, burning (ligtning causing a fire).Magnetism - Manipulating magnetic object to use for crushing. Iron removal (see iron - Magneto used magnetic power, not iron control, but they could both do it).Plasma - Burning, asphyxiation (replacing air with plasma), crushing (densely-packed plasma hitting as if solid).Psionics - hypnosis, insanity, mind-killing.Shadow - Concussive, explosive (manipulating shadows inside victim's body, tearing them apart from the inside). Strangulation.Sonics - Disintegration (Sound is just vibrations of air - theoretically, you could use it to vibrate someone into dust). Concussive force (sound causing things to blow away).Stone - Concussive force, crushing, cutting (stone shrapnel).Water - Drowning, radical dehydration (remove all water from the target - a surprisingly effective means of death). Crushing force (shooting someone up into the air and making them fall, picking up heavy objects with water and throwing them, smashing them into things with water).

Some elements can also counteract one another, such as light and shadow. If all the light in the area is removed, shadow is left. So someone with light or shadow powers could theoretically use both. Like Alternate Teridax did.


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#33 Offline -Toa Lhikevikk-

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Posted May 25 2013 - 12:02 PM

I'm pretty sure one of the books describes a shadow blast as feeling ice-cold. I think it was BL9 but I'm not sure.


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#34 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 25 2013 - 02:12 PM

Add "melting/vaporization" to Plasma. Fire can be blasted at a rock until it starts heating up and eventually melts, but Plasma can pour in enough energy to liquify the rock in a few seconds. Pahrak-Kal blasted a path into the collapsed Bohrok nest in a very short amount of time, while it would probably have taken someone like Tahu at least a few hours to melt that much rock.On the other hand, Pahrak-Kal can't really do "ignition". If he aims at a tree and wants to set the forest on fire, he'll likely vaporize the tree and be left with a charred stump but no combustion process. He could instead melt the ground and make the heat do the ignition, but Tahu would have been able to burn the tree (and the surrounding forest) just by creating a proper flame.
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#35 Offline Ice the Great

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Posted May 25 2013 - 04:28 PM

Some elements can also counteract one another, such as light and shadow. If all the light in the area is removed, shadow is left. So someone with light or shadow powers could theoretically use both. Like Alternate Teridax did.

I don't know if that works both ways. I know light-removal can cause shadow, but I don't know if Shadow can pull a light trick. 

Add "melting/vaporization" to Plasma. Fire can be blasted at a rock until it starts heating up and eventually melts, but Plasma can pour in enough energy to liquify the rock in a few seconds. Pahrak-Kal blasted a path into the collapsed Bohrok nest in a very short amount of time, while it would probably have taken someone like Tahu at least a few hours to melt that much rock.On the other hand, Pahrak-Kal can't really do "ignition". If he aims at a tree and wants to set the forest on fire, he'll likely vaporize the tree and be left with a charred stump but no combustion process. He could instead melt the ground and make the heat do the ignition, but Tahu would have been able to burn the tree (and the surrounding forest) just by creating a proper flame.

True enough. I wrote my post late at night. Burning, to me, might have just been short-hand for "general heat-based damage." However, were Pahrak-Kalk to simply create a plasma field NEAR a target, I believe radiant heat could cause an ignition.

Edited by Ice the Great, May 25 2013 - 04:29 PM.

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#36 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted May 25 2013 - 04:32 PM

About controlling the absence of something: Light Teridax was a MAKUTA. As in, the most powerful element wielders. Plus, I'm willing to bet Mending Makuta are more powerful than Core Makuta. Sure, a Toa of Fire could make ice by absorbing heat, but he wouldn't be able to control it. Light Teridax is probably one of the most powerful beings on SM.


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#37 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 25 2013 - 05:34 PM

Add "melting/vaporization" to Plasma. Fire can be blasted at a rock until it starts heating up and eventually melts, but Plasma can pour in enough energy to liquify the rock in a few seconds. Pahrak-Kal blasted a path into the collapsed Bohrok nest in a very short amount of time, while it would probably have taken someone like Tahu at least a few hours to melt that much rock.On the other hand, Pahrak-Kal can't really do "ignition". If he aims at a tree and wants to set the forest on fire, he'll likely vaporize the tree and be left with a charred stump but no combustion process. He could instead melt the ground and make the heat do the ignition, but Tahu would have been able to burn the tree (and the surrounding forest) just by creating a proper flame.

You say "Fire can be blasted at a rock until it starts heating up and eventually melts" as if it would take a while. A Toa-sized boulder could probably be melted in under 10 seconds by an experienced Toa of Fire, however. It would have to be a large rock for it to 'eventually' (eventually being a word that connotes a rather lengthy amount of time) melt. 

 

When Pohatu rained stones on Dark Tahu in Chronicles #1, he melted most of the rocks as they fell on him, but it still wasnt enough to save him. And that was in just under two seconds, most likely. It was said that the Dark Toa were equal in power to the original Toa Mata, explaining why they couldn't be beat by them. So, I'm not sure it would take hours for an even more powerful version of Tahu Mata (as in, Tahu Nuva) to melt his way through, although plasma would do it much quicker. 

 

Anyways, the point is, don't underestimate fire :P

 

Edit: Chro, I wasn't trying to say that a Toa of Fire could manipulate plasma, I was trying to say he could absorb heat from it, making it essentially just hot gas. Like a Toa of Ice making an ice cube into a puddle.


Edited by slifer3000, May 25 2013 - 05:45 PM.

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#38 Offline Madara: Mangekyou Master

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Posted May 25 2013 - 09:42 PM

Hmmm... if he absorbs the heat from it, would it still be a hot gas?


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#39 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 25 2013 - 10:07 PM

Hmmm... if he absorbs the heat from it, would it still be a hot gas?

 

Yes, because plasma is freakishly hot. He might be able to absorb it down to safe levels, but it still would be hot. 


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#40 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 26 2013 - 06:32 AM

You say "Fire can be blasted at a rock until it starts heating up and eventually melts" as if it would take a while. A Toa-sized boulder could probably be melted in under 10 seconds by an experienced Toa of Fire, however. It would have to be a large rock for it to 'eventually' (eventually being a word that connotes a rather lengthy amount of time) melt. 

When talking about a tunnel into the Bohrok nests, I'd say at least an hour is a good estimate for a fire-user. A lot of energy would have to be wasted on producing heat compared to plasma. Tahu is a Toa Nuva, so I should probably have used a different character as my example, but I don't see an average Toa of Fire being able to tunnel quickly through rock. Melting or blowing apart a few decently sized rocks, though, yes. Tahnok can do that. 

WhenPohatu rained stones on Dark Tahu in Chronicles #1, he melted most of the rocks as they fell on him, but it still wasnt enough to save him. And that was in just under two seconds, most likely. It was said that the Dark Toa were equal in power to the original Toa Mata, explaining why they couldn't be beat by them. So, I'm not sure it would take hours for an even more powerful version of Tahu Mata (as in, Tahu Nuva) to melt his way through, although plasma would do it much quicker.

How much elemental energy would you have left after going through several meters of rock using fire? A Toa of Stone can bend the cliff-side apart, while Toa of Plasma can pretty much vaporize matter as a primary function of their element. A Toa of Fire, though, would have to apply heat and/or flame until the rock melts, and though they can do so very quickly it'd still take a while depending on the size of the rock. The more mass there is the more energy you need, and the more you rock you have to melt the slower it goes. 

Anyways, the point is, don't underestimate fire :P

I'm not underestimating it so much as I'm saying we shouldn't overestimate it either. We know rocks can be melted by fire, but making a tunnel into a mountain? I would be surprised if a regular Toa of Fire could do that without either expending most their energy or taking a long time to do so. 

Edit: Chro, I wasn't trying to say that a Toa of Fire could manipulate plasma, I was trying to say he could absorb heat from it, making it essentially just hot gas. Like a Toa of Ice making an ice cube into a puddle.

They can, but consider what happened Vakama absorbed heat in order to chill a room. Soon after he had to release it again, to prevent overloading himself. A Toa of Plasma could likely output a heck of a lot more heat than that roomful using just a small portion of their power. Absorbing the heat from plasma attacks would only be good for a very short time, and if the enemy just keeps pouring on plasma you wouldn't have time to release it or counter-attack.When used for direct destruction, Plasma is hotter and more instantly effective at making things... disappear. When it comes to versatility in other situations, however, Plasma will often be like using a sledgehammer to hang a picture on the wall. It works, but you have less precision control if you want a smaller effect, and the potential for collateral damage is higher.

Edited by Katuko, May 26 2013 - 06:32 AM.

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