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Damage of Elements


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#41 Offline Ice the Great

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Posted May 26 2013 - 02:22 PM

Hmmm... if he absorbs the heat from it, would it still be a hot gas?

 

Yes, because plasma is freakishly hot. He might be able to absorb it down to safe levels, but it still would be hot.

Actually, being hot isn't a key of being plasma. The heat makes it INTO plasma, but cold plasma is possible - it's the ionization of the gas that makes it plasma. So, theoretically, even if it were cold, it would still be a threat due to the ionic energy. So, I guess you could even add electrical damage to plasma.Plasma's some dangerous stuff.


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#42 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 26 2013 - 03:17 PM

Hmmm... if he absorbs the heat from it, would it still be a hot gas?

 

>Yes, because plasma is freakishly hot. He might be able to absorb it down to safe levels, but it still would be hot.

Actually, being hot isn't a key of being plasma. The heat makes it INTO plasma, but cold plasma is possible - it's the ionization of the gas that makes it plasma. So, theoretically, even if it were cold, it would still be a threat due to the ionic energy. So, I guess you could even add electrical damage to plasma.Plasma's some dangerous stuff.

 

 

In theory, but that's unlikely. Atoms, by nature, want to "de-ionize", and to keep it ionized you have to have some energy keeping those atoms' protons and electrons apart. Usually that's thermal energy, but electric energy is possible, I think (you would have negative ions, but the gas would still be ionized). But Toa of Plasma aren't Toa of Electricity, so they would probably make thermal Plasma, IMO.


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#43 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 26 2013 - 04:53 PM

I don't think that getting hit by a powerful beam of fire would do any less damage to you than plasma, considering both would likely kill you, it's like how an RPG is more powerful than a pistol, but both could kill someone fairly easily.

 

Also, about cold plasma, yes, it could exist, but it wouldn't do damage without heat to incinerate with.


Edited by slifer3000, May 26 2013 - 04:54 PM.

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#44 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 26 2013 - 05:18 PM

I don't think that getting hit by a powerful beam of fire would do any less damage to you than plasma, considering both would likely kill you, it's like how an RPG is more powerful than a pistol, but both could kill someone fairly easily.

Being hit by fire would burn organics to a crisp and start melting metal, so yeah, it's deadly. Plasma would do much the same, except it would make it all armor vaporize in the process. The killing potential of both elements lies very high. I still hold that Plasma can likely destroy a lot more stuff more quickly, but it has the drawback of being harder to tone down if you wanted to.You can create a circle of fire around someone to stop them, for example, but if you try that with plasma it might still be very dangerous simply because it's plasma and thus highly energized.

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#45 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 26 2013 - 07:35 PM

The thing about heating metal is it bends, and wont bend back on its own without being heated again. So if you heat a Toa's kneecap with a bolt of fire, it could likely incapacitate his entire leg


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#46 Offline Ice the Great

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Posted May 27 2013 - 02:38 AM

 

Hmmm... if he absorbs the heat from it, would it still be a hot gas?

 

>Yes, because plasma is freakishly hot. He might be able to absorb it down to safe levels, but it still would b

e hot.

Actually, being hot isn't a key of being plasma. The heat makes it INTO plasma, but cold plasma is possible - it's the ionization of the gas that makes it plasma. So, theoretically, even if it were cold, it would still be a threat due to the ionic energy. So, I guess you could even add electrical damage to plasma.Plasma's some dangerous stuff.

 

In theory, but that's unlikely. Atoms, by nature, want to "de-ionize", and to keep it ionized you have to have some energy keeping those atoms' protons and electrons apart. Usually that's thermal energy, but electric energy is possible, I think (you would have negative ions, but the gas would still be ionized). But Toa of Plasma aren't Toa of Electricity, so they would probably make thermal Plasma, IMO.

 

True enough. But that doesn't mean that, with enough practice, a Toa of Plasma cannot create/control cold plasma and keep it as plasma. If they can control plasma, does that not mean they can make it hotter or colder if they so desire? What's to stop them from doing so?


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#47 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 27 2013 - 06:17 AM

True enough. But that doesn't mean that, with enough practice, a Toa of Plasma cannot create/control cold plasma and keep it as plasma. If they can control plasma, does that not mean they can make it hotter or colder if they so desire? What's to stop them from doing so?

Nothing except our lack of knowledge of how Plasma works in the BIONICLE universe. We must assume it's the same as real life until something else contradicts it in canon, but since we know at least one difference - the existence of elemental plasma energy - we can't say for certain until we know what that energy does.With Fire, the elemental energy is converted into heat and fuel for the combustion process, and can be used to manipulate other sources of fire. With Plasma, we know that it is used to produce plasma (as in, ionized gas that is very hot) and potentially induce ionization in other matter. Whether Plasma EE can be used for ionization without heat, or if the process will always cause heat as a byproduct, are things we don't really know. Fire can't create just the "fuel", for example, it has to create flame. it can, however, create just heat.I don't think we've gotten confirmation about how Plasma is absorbed, either. Would it need to be absorbed from actual plasma, or would heat/ion sources be enough? Ions can be found several places, while actual plasma is a bit harder to come by on the surface of a planet. There's also the question of what happens when you absorb plasma. You would naturally absorb an entire cloud without trouble, and potentially thermal energy like what Toa of Fire do. But if ions can also be absorbed, would the ion itself be taken, or would simply the extra charge be taken and the ion returned to being a regular atom? Could absorbing ions (as opposed to thermal energy) be a potential method of attack?

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#48 Online Chro

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Posted May 27 2013 - 07:34 AM

Not sure if this is plausible, I'd like to think that they could absorb heat (or ions, as you said, Katuko) to sort of "charge up" a plasma attack. Actually, I think I'll headcanon that regardless. :P


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#49 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 27 2013 - 09:15 AM

I don't think Plasma Toa can randomly walk around and destabilize atoms by absorbing ions off of everything. That's a little much, IMO. Also, if ionized solids or liquids existed in the Bionicle universe, I doubt a Plasma Toa could absorb it. 

 

Further, I also doubt that a Toa of Plasma has control over all ions. Plasma is a state of matter in which there is so much energy that the atoms don't remain atoms and divide into positive and negative charges. These Toa have control over this state of matter, but I doubt they have control over the individual ions. It's a Toa of Plasma, not a Toa of Ion Manipulation. :P Two different things. 


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#50 Online bonesiii

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Posted May 27 2013 - 10:13 AM

If they can control plasma, does that not mean they can make it hotter or colder if they so desire? What's to stop them from doing so?

Plasma is, as said before, superheat + noncombusting gasses, in the fourth state of matter hotter than gas, liquid, or solid. Some gasses might reach that state a bit lower than others but they are all superhot, so "cold" cannot apply.

 

Also, only Toa of Fire can separate out the Heat aspect and make "less hot" fire or just heat, as mentioned before as well. Plasma can only do nothing or make superhot Plasma. So I don't really see how that translates to making any kind of gradient of hotter or not so hot. The only alternative for that would seem to be to make more or less Plasma to heat something more or less.

 

It may help to remind you also that they don't control "plasma" with a lower-case p, as that includes Fire; they only control the subset of "plasma" called "Plasma" with a capitol P which Greg confirmed (to me) is superheat plus noncombusting gasses. So anything else that might be "cold" while being considered plasma in general would not seem to fall into that range.


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#51 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 28 2013 - 12:31 PM

So how did Pahrak-Kal turn the ground into lava? Shouldn't it just have blown the ground away instead of forming magma? 

 

Maybe he used like barely any plasma. 


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#52 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 28 2013 - 12:51 PM

So how did Pahrak-Kal turn the ground into lava? Shouldn't it just have blown the ground away instead of forming magma? 

 

Maybe he used like barely any plasma. 

Pahrak-Kal turned the ground into lava? 


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#53 Online bonesiii

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Posted May 28 2013 - 12:58 PM

So how did Pahrak-Kal turn the ground into lava? Shouldn't it just have blown the ground away instead of forming magma? 

 

Maybe he used like barely any plasma. 

Pahrak-Kal turned the ground into lava? 

That's how it's interpreted although not sure if it's confirmed. Regardless, answer's pretty simple. Plasma has superheat. Superheat melting rock makes lava. Ground was made of rock and got hit with superheat from Plasma. Ergo, lava.

 

Key there is that rock has a much higher melting point (and thus even ridiculously higher vaporization point) than other materials. Plasma will burn/vaporize wood but likely only melt metal or rock. (This is the same reason lava is so prohibitively hot.)

 

But the gasses used in Plasma have a very low vaporization point (which is why at room temperature they are called gas), and high but achieveable plasma-ization point. So the fourth-state point of heat level in these gasses equates to the liquid (second-state) point in rock.


Edited by bonesiii, May 28 2013 - 01:00 PM.

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#54 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 28 2013 - 01:14 PM

Tahu didn't jump back when the ground turned molten, so was he used to being able to trod through lava or something?


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#55 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 28 2013 - 01:25 PM

Tahu didn't jump back when the ground turned molten, so was he used to being able to trod through lava or something?

He has natural heat resistance, and he's used to surfing on it. But walking through it isn't possible, it would burn his feet off. 


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#56 Online bonesiii

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Posted May 28 2013 - 01:49 PM

Tahu wasn't on the molten area, so he didn't need to jump back. :)


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#57 Offline The Otter

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Posted May 28 2013 - 02:08 PM

Well, for the examples I saw in the opening post, sonics and shadow, because I'm too lazy to read anything else:

 

Shadow could, theoretically, damage a being in Bionicle by damaging their inner light. Think about it; instead of just physically constricting you, or making you feel clammy and what not, it's doing direct damage to an integral part of your being. Light, obviously, can burn; but imagine that it does the same to an inner shadow. An outside force is screwing with your equilibrium, and it makes sense that that might prove rather dangerous.

 

Sonics, like has been said, can deafen, it can shatter...Not just armour, but your bones, as well, it can liquefy anything organic, it could even make you explode by manipulating the vibrations within a Toa's body, in any empty part, by maxing out the strength of a pressure wave going through that part.

 

And, as we know, sound is all vibrations, pressure waves are vibrations as well - seeing as sound is created by extremely small pressure waves.


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#58 Online Chro

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Posted May 28 2013 - 03:39 PM

Sonics will be nerfed by the next patch. 

umwat

 

Yeah, sonics has a wide range of possibilites, but a lot of them would require really fine control. I'd mark it as an element that, although generally effective in regular ways, requires extreme finesse to use in creative ways, similar to how water becomes a lot more effective when you've got the training that Helryx has.


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#59 Offline Damaracx Caratas Xarian

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Posted May 29 2013 - 01:17 AM

Um, it's that element. A fireball would burn you.

 

Some elements, namely Gravity and Magnetism, are just ways to manipulate your enemy. Psionics is mental energy, so mental pain.

 

Shadow would be a concussive blast. I see shadows as creating solid objects, which is what I think it is.

 

Sonics is sound. It's just sound. 

[color=#ff0000;]Can't Psionics users also use telekinesis?[/color]

 

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something. 

[color=#a9a9a9;]Or it could be something like Shikamaru's Shadow Possession Jitsu, or in other words; they can controls the enemy with their shadow.[/color]


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#60 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 29 2013 - 05:06 AM

[color=#ff0000;]Can't Psionics users also use telekinesis?[/color]

They can. In that case you're not doing damage directly with the element, though, but rather by applying force to toss someone around. A direct blast of psionic energy would likely feel like someone kicked you in the head, if it wasn't used to apply telekinetic force instead. 

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something.

[color=#a9a9a9;]Or it could be something like Shikamaru's Shadow Possession Jitsu, or in other words; they can controls the enemy with their shadow.[/color]

My personal take on shadow is mostly like what Pride does in Fullmetal Alchemist. He takes shadows and makes them into solid shapes used for blunt force trauma, stabbing, grabbing things (and choking), etc. The element might also have a naturally cold feelingI don't think it could target inner light directly. If it could, the Makuta wouldn't really have needed to create Shadow Leeches to extract someone's inner light, they could just apply a bit of their elemental power directly.

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#61 Online Chro

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Posted May 29 2013 - 09:20 AM

Shadow could perhaps make you feel uncomfortable or pained by- for lack of a better word- scratching at your inner light, but I agree that shadow on its own couldn't just destroy or damage inner light.


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#62 Offline Damaracx Caratas Xarian

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Posted May 29 2013 - 05:35 PM

[color=#ff0000;]Can't Psionics users also use telekinesis?[/color]

They can. In that case you're not doing damage directly with the element, though, but rather by applying force to toss someone around. A direct blast of psionic energy would likely feel like someone kicked you in the head, if it wasn't used to apply telekinetic force instead. 

>> 

Well I feel like Shadow might actually be a burning sensation on the inside or something.

[color=#a9a9a9;]Or it could be something like Shikamaru's Shadow Possession Jitsu, or in other words; they can controls the enemy with their shadow.[/color]
My personal take on shadow is mostly like what Pride does in Fullmetal Alchemist. He takes shadows and makes them into solid shapes used for blunt force trauma, stabbing, grabbing things (and choking), etc. The element might also have a naturally cold feeling

[color=#ff0000;]Oh, so, it's like the Shadow Strangle Jitsu (I think that's what it's called) which basically just strangle people with their own shadow.[/color]

 

[color=#a9a9a9;](Yay!  Now your making anime references too!)[/color]


Edited by Damaracx 7.0, May 29 2013 - 05:35 PM.

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#63 Offline Makuta Matata

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Posted May 30 2013 - 12:37 PM

Some elements can also counteract one another, such as light and shadow. If all the light in the area is removed, shadow is left. So someone with light or shadow powers could theoretically use both. Like Alternate Teridax did.

I don't know if that works both ways. I know light-removal can cause shadow, but I don't know if Shadow can pull a light trick.

You're probably right about that, but elements like fire can make ice, lightning can make magnetism, etc.


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#64 Offline fishers64

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Posted May 30 2013 - 02:05 PM

It's possible that a Shadow user could absorb shadow energy and make things brighter, but I think a source of light, no matter how dim, would have to be present for it to work. I don't think Makuta can make holograms with Shadow, though. (They need that illusion power for that.)
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#65 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 30 2013 - 03:30 PM

Some elements can also counteract one another, such as light and shadow. If all the light in the area is removed, shadow is left. So someone with light or shadow powers could theoretically use both. Like Alternate Teridax did.

I don't know if that works both ways. I know light-removal can cause shadow, but I don't know if Shadow can pull a light trick.

You're probably right about that, but elements like fire can make ice, lightning can make magnetism, etc.

They can, but only indirectly. A Toa of Light could absorb light in the area to leave it in darkness, but I'm not sure if that would be actual elemental Shadow energy, and he/she would not be able to control the shadow directly.

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#66 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 30 2013 - 03:44 PM

Darkness isn't shadow.


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#67 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 30 2013 - 04:44 PM

Yet we have the question of whether a Toa of Fire absorbing all the heat in a room would leave behind cold energy for a Toa of Ice to work with.
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#68 Offline Toa Zaz

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Posted May 30 2013 - 04:55 PM

So, when Pahrak-Kal melted the giant rock Onua Nuva was carrying in the one comic, why wasn't Onua immediately killed by holding a large quantity of lava above his head?


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#69 Offline Katuko

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Posted May 30 2013 - 05:18 PM

So, when Pahrak-Kal melted the giant rock Onua Nuva was carrying in the one comic, why wasn't Onua immediately killed by holding a large quantity of lava above his head?

An amazing skill at playing Hot Potato. No other explanation, really.

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#70 Online bonesiii

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Posted May 30 2013 - 05:36 PM

So, when Pahrak-Kal melted the giant rock Onua Nuva was carrying in the one comic, why wasn't Onua immediately killed by holding a large quantity of lava above his head?

That would be pages 8-9 here:

 

http://www.brickshel...df_comic_10.pdf

 

It's a comic, not an animation, so we simply are not given the full picture of what happened. There's a number of possibilities.

 

First, the scene showing the whole boulder already lava and still above him may simply symbolize that he saw it turning into this and would have dodged before it really got that far.

 

Second, the scene might be accurate but he might have still been able to get out from under it.

 

Pohatu might have shared the power of the Mask of Speed with him to aid that.

 

Briefly touching lava and falling into lava might not be the same -- it might have fallen on him and he still survived, but Pahrak-Kal falling into a pool of lava that was continually being heated until the moment it was destroyed would be a lot more intense. The Mask of Light was touching lava at one point, after all, but was intact.

 

Fifth and what seems most likely to me, the very next scene has Tahu sharing the power of Shielding with them all, so maybe that instantly appeared between Onua's hand and the lava, protecting them all much as the same power protected Tahu and Takua from lava in a scene shortly after the Mask of Light was found.


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#71 Online Chro

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Posted May 30 2013 - 07:09 PM

I think that your last suggestion is the most likely, bones, especially since he's immediately shown under the shield in the next panel...


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#72 Offline slifer3000

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Posted May 30 2013 - 09:41 PM

The beam hit the center of the stone, meaning the outside would just be really hot rock that might be bordering lava. He could drop it without major damage but maybe with a blister on his palm.


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