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Future of the RPG Forum Contests


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#1 Online Black Six

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Posted May 26 2013 - 08:34 PM

I've noticed the past few contests that the winning RPGs start off strong but tend to really slow down in activity well before the next contest begins. I'm trying to think about what we can do to fix that and want your thoughts and feedback.Please note, it is unlikely anything suggested here will make it into the June contest, so don't expect that.First off is the number of winners. I know in the past people have asked for more winners, but I don't see that helping here. I don't want to reduce the number of winners, but it could theoretically condense the number of players and keep activity up.We could hold contests more frequently. I don't know that my schedule really wants me to do that, but if RPGs are slowing down after two months having new ones sooner could help.Contests have been light on themes for a while - do you guys think a theme helps or hurts the entries and activity of the winning RPGs?I know in the past sometimes a GM gets busy and can't run a game anymore. We could require at least two hosts for each RPG so that hopefully at least one is around at all times.I'm open to what you all have to think about this.Thanks!
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#2 Offline Rhaegar Targaryen

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Posted May 26 2013 - 09:22 PM

[color=rgb(0,0,128);]We should keep the contest cycle the same. Not much to complain about there.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(0,0,128);]As for the topic of themes, it is my personal opinion that it is both a good and bad thing. Sometimes, it can crash down on people who pre-plan and work on their RPGs weeks ahead. At other times, it helps to give people a reason to get creative, to experiment. Perhaps there can be a vote, before each contest, to see if people want a theme or not.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(0,0,128);]The twin hosts of RPG contests, I just don't think it would help. Sure, it might possibly keep the RPG a little bit more lively, but it won't work every time. And what about all those newer guys who don't have enough reputation to get a co-host? And those new to the forum, with good ideas but no one to help? The entry numbers would be lower then average if this came through.[/color]

 

[color=rgb(0,0,128);]One idea, I think would be cool, is to add a fourth winning RPG. However, this winner would be pooled from newer RPGers and non-winners. It would give new blood the experience of running a RPG, and introduce the community to previously unknown talents. [/color]


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#3 Offline Click

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Posted May 26 2013 - 09:31 PM

Not that I have all that much experience in this sort of thing, but are you suggesting brackets of entries, possibly based on membership years? That might work, and I like the idea of voting for the theme.

 

As for my own ideas, dual hosts seem like it would help a lot, but also restrict entries. If there was some way to easily get hosts, like possibly a topic where those who would like to run an RPG but don't have an idea, that might help those newer guys who don't have the reputation, as Mr. House said.

 

Another possible idea is maybe have the topics running for a week or so before the entries are finalized so they can gather players who like them and more votes. It could help the RPGs get a steady group of followers who may stick with it for a bit longer.


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#4 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 12:37 AM

At a guess I'd say the reason activity drops off is because the shine was worn off the RPGs. The "ooh, new shiny RPG" factor is gone and the game lacks staying power. The Gate, for example, held players because it had a riveting story. If there was a way to ensure winning RPGs had some form of staying power, especially something to make them compete with the BZPRPG, then players would play them more, I think.

 

:w:


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#5 Offline The Lorax

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Posted May 27 2013 - 02:09 AM

I agree it is a worrying trend, though I think the slowing-down of the current crop of player-run RPGs could have more do do with the beginning fo a new BZPRPG arc than anything around how the contests are run.

 

Maybe we could add something along the lines of this: when an RPG goes inactive for a certain period of time of the GM sees that it's going nowhere, they could close it down quickly instead of leaving it to rot, and instead begin the fourth-placed RPG from the last contest.

 

Beat and Rhythm from Contest #23 would be a good example of what I'm talking about here. It took 21 days for the GM to decide not to keep running it and to let it die, leaving more than 2 months of good RPing time that could have been spent playing another RPG. If the person who created the fourth-placed entry didn't want to run their game on a shortened timeframe, we could go down the list until we found someone who would (though I think most probably would - having the game already underway but still relatively new could be a distinct advantage in the next contest, so they might get four or even five months for their game).

 

I'm no great fan of the at-least-two-hosts-per-game idea, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with a host passing their game on to another if it meant the RPG could keep going. As for the themes, Mr House about summed up my thoughts.


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#6 Online Black Six

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Posted May 27 2013 - 07:54 AM

[color=#000080;]The twin hosts of RPG contests, I just don't think it would help. Sure, it might possibly keep the RPG a little bit more lively, but it won't work every time. And what about all those newer guys who don't have enough reputation to get a co-host? And those new to the forum, with good ideas but no one to help? The entry numbers would be lower then average if this came through.[/color] [color=#000080;]One idea, I think would be cool, is to add a fourth winning RPG. However, this winner would be pooled from newer RPGers and non-winners. It would give new blood the experience of running a RPG, and introduce the community to previously unknown talents. [/color]

 

I'm no great fan of the at-least-two-hosts-per-game idea, but I wouldn't see anything wrong with a host passing their game on to another if it meant the RPG could keep going. As for the themes, Mr House about summed up my thoughts.

Perhaps a way to combine a couple things would be two 'divisions.' One would be RPGs with more than one host, likely people who have been around longer. The other would be games with only one host. There would be some combination of winners from each division that get to start their contests, two and one or two and two, something like that.The biggest downside I see is with the lower turnout contests have been having lately, there wouldn't necessarily be much contest to it if there were only seven entries in each 'division.'

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#7 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted May 27 2013 - 07:58 AM

How about this:

 

The revival limit for an RPG is shrunk down to say, two weeks. Whenever an RPG dies, the next in line in the contest takes over.

 

So it would work like this: There are RPG Contest Winners One, Two and Three. If Two doesn't get a post for two weeks, then RPG Contest Runner-up Four takes its spot.


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#8 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted May 27 2013 - 11:07 AM

How about this:

 

The revival limit for an RPG is shrunk down to say, two weeks. Whenever an RPG dies, the next in line in the contest takes over.

 

So it would work like this: There are RPG Contest Winners One, Two and Three. If Two doesn't get a post for two weeks, then RPG Contest Runner-up Four takes its spot.

 

I really like this Idea, this'd give a chance to other good Ideas from the contest. The one who closed it could enter in the next contest, only if they edited it and provided a plan for a longer run....


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#9 Offline Legolover-361

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Posted May 27 2013 - 11:26 AM

First off is the number of winners. I know in the past people have asked for more winners, but I don't see that helping here. I don't want to reduce the number of winners, but it could theoretically condense the number of players and keep activity up.

This could work, but it would mean that some good RPGs will get less of a chance to be played.

We could hold contests more frequently. I don't know that my schedule really wants me to do that, but if RPGs are slowing down after two months having new ones sooner could help.

If RPGs tend to become stale after two months, holding contests more frequently should help. The RPGs that don't become stale could just be entered in the next contest, and if they're considered good, they have a healthy chance at winning.If you don't have enough time on your schedule, you could have someone assist with running the contest.

Contests have been light on themes for a while - do you guys think a theme helps or hurts the entries and activity of the winning RPGs?

Themes can make contests interesting but can also somewhat limit the types of RPGs that can be entered. I think introducing, perhaps once every other contest, a theme either vague or with multiple interpretations would spice things up.

I know in the past sometimes a GM gets busy and can't run a game anymore. We could require at least two hosts for each RPG so that hopefully at least one is around at all times.

I would prefer this idea:

How about this: The revival limit for an RPG is shrunk down to say, two weeks. Whenever an RPG dies, the next in line in the contest takes over. So it would work like this: There are RPG Contest Winners One, Two and Three. If Two doesn't get a post for two weeks, then RPG Contest Runner-up Four takes its spot.


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#10 Offline ToaOfAwesome

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Posted May 27 2013 - 01:05 PM

I definitely think that themes should only be once in a while. They shouldn't be gone completely because they can be kind of fun, but they are also kind of restricting. Maybe there should be themes more often, but you can choose whether or not you want to do that theme or if you're just going to do your own kind of thing.


Edited by ToaOfAwesome, May 27 2013 - 01:05 PM.

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#11 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 01:05 PM

Contests have been light on themes for a while - do you guys think a theme helps or hurts the entries and activity of the winning RPGs?

Themes can make contests interesting but can also somewhat limit the types of RPGs that can be entered. I think introducing, perhaps once every other contest, a theme either vague or with multiple interpretations would spice things up

This...this seems to be a very interesting idea I'd not considered before. I'll throw my support behind this.

 

However, I think the biggest key to this whole predicament is the lack of Contest RPG players. We'd need some way to pull in more players, convince them that these games are just as worth playing as the BZPRPG or the COTRPGs, or even from elsewhere. A bigger playerbase means more activity, more activity means a longer life.

 

:w:


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#12 Online Black Six

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Posted May 27 2013 - 01:11 PM

However, I think the biggest key to this whole predicament is the lack of Contest RPG players. We'd need some way to pull in more players, convince them that these games are just as worth playing as the BZPRPG or the COTRPGs, or even from elsewhere. A bigger playerbase means more activity, more activity means a longer life.  :w:

I always try to post news stories about the contests as they're going on. Should I perhaps post one about the winners instead of or in addition to the other stories?

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#13 Offline Canis Lycaon

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Posted May 27 2013 - 01:14 PM

I think that a news article on the winners is pretty important. It would get out the news about the RPGs.

 

 

However, I think the biggest key to this whole predicament is the lack of Contest RPG players. We'd need some way to pull in more players, convince them that these games are just as worth playing as the BZPRPG or the COTRPGs, or even from elsewhere.

You mean the RPG forum that nobody cares about? The LEGO RPG forum?


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#14 Offline ToaKaprua1324

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Posted May 27 2013 - 01:17 PM

I think he means other sites.


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#15 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 01:28 PM

I mean anywhere. LRPG, S&T, other sites if that's okay with the staff...

 

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#16 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted May 27 2013 - 02:09 PM

Frankly, I feel like the problem lies in the contest system itself, for multiple reasons--not the least of which being the limited amount time that is actually granted to the seasonal RPGs.

 

Here's the thing: Three months, for most people, is not enough time to set up, execute, and finish a series of plots in an RPG in a coherent manner. It's a problem I ran into with both Day Run and Night Ride. The former ended up running for over a year on and off because people kept on losing interest in it and then returning (not at all helped by the whole forum move thing,) causing it to disappear for three-month intervals while interest gathered again. The plots that were set up in the first season of the game weren't ready to bloom until later seasons, and that did not work well for some. In contrast, while the latter ended up being finished, it was at a huge cost to writing quality--it was extremely lacking in every conceivable area. Honestly, I feel like this is partly what turns people off to these RPGs, because it's a problem that, for instance, the BZPRPG and most OTC RPGS don't tend to deal with. Do people lose interest in them? Yes. Do they do so as quickly as they do with seasonal RPGs? In general, no. So, time limit is one thing.

 

Another is the fact that--undeniably--the contests themselves causes massive fanfare for particular RPGs that (in relation to the above) causes them to be a similarly massive let-down in their first season. As the beginning stages of an RPG are used to set up plots, not much tends to actually happen in that time, people get bored, and then they disappear, prematurely killing the RPG (hello, Perpetual!) Again, you don't tend to run into that issue with OTC RPGs or the BZPRPG (from what I've seen,) because there is no forum-wide, flag-waving competition to catch peoples' interest. Instead you conceive an RPG or a plot, maybe advertise it a little bit to get opinions and feedback, and then submit it for approval, after which point you start to catch more interest in it from people who weren't already on-board with the idea. Quick, quiet, easy. It gives you more time to set things up and it doesn't promise things that won't immediately be delivered.

 

It doesn't help at all that by mid-season both the players and the GM are already distracted by the prospect of another approaching contest, which drags attention away even further--the GM has to focus on advertising their RPG so that they, again, do not run out of time to do what they plan to do in their game, cutting into their ability to focus on their stories, while the players' attention is taken away by the same advertisement war that is meant to prolong the RPG they're playing in.

 

Finally, to me, it seems as if the contests subdue the full creative abilities of the forum. By this I mean that the winners of the contests tend to be those players who are well-known, have a lot of pulling power, and in general simply can exert more sway over the populous than the other contestants. I don't want to use the term "popularity contest," but there have been instances in the past where those two words have been more than appropriate. As a side-effect, we're stuck with repeat performances by many GMs--there's little new blood being let onto the game scene. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not, but it does have an effect one way or another. I know I'm not the only one who has noticed those contests where it's barely a five-way tie between games with well-known, proven GMs and those with newer ones who have still managed to create fascinating stories, only to lose to the former.

 

EDIT: Taking the above paragraph into consideration, I would be in support of the two-GM requirement.

 

Point being, the limit on the number of active Bionicle RPGs at a given time is stifling, something I find completely bizarre considering BZP is a Bionicle website that does not regulate the number of non-Bionicle RPGs that can be up at once.

 

Whew. So, yeah. That being said, my suggestions, for what they're worth, are as follows:

-Increase the number of winning RPGs to appeal to a wider RPing audience.

-Expand the three-month time limit.

--Either have fewer contests or allow the seasonal RPGs to overlap with one another.

-Barring the above, switch to a different approval system. While I know that a vote was taken... last year? on this same topic, the situation with seasonal RPGs has changed dramatically. I honestly don't feel that the decision then has much ground now.

 

I don't know--those are just my two cents, based off of experiences with my own RPGs. Make of them what you will--obviously other people will have had different experiences than I have.


Edited by Parugi, May 27 2013 - 02:54 PM.

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#17 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 03:21 PM

Parugi has some right points and some wrong points here. Let be break this down.

 

Frankly, I feel like the problem lies in the contest system itself, for multiple reasons--not the least of which being the limited amount time that is actually granted to the seasonal RPGs.

 

Here's the thing: Three months, for most people, is not enough time to set up, execute, and finish a series of plots in an RPG in a coherent manner. It's a problem I ran into with both Day Run and Night Ride. The former ended up running for over a year on and off because people kept on losing interest in it and then returning (not at all helped by the whole forum move thing,) causing it to disappear for three-month intervals while interest gathered again. The plots that were set up in the first season of the game weren't ready to bloom until later seasons, and that did not work well for some. In contrast, while the latter ended up being finished, it was at a huge cost to writing quality--it was extremely lacking in every conceivable area. Honestly, I feel like this is partly what turns people off to these RPGs, because it's a problem that, for instance, the BZPRPG and most OTC RPGS don't tend to deal with. Do people lose interest in them? Yes. Do they do so as quickly as they do with seasonal RPGs? In general, no. So, time limit is one thing.

YES. Very, so much yes. I had this problem with Night of Infinity--it had an amazing plotline that I would have loved to share with people, and a lot of people really liked that game. Unfortunately, I couldn't roll the whole thing out in three months, so only the world-establishing part of it was ever shown.

 

Another is the fact that--undeniably--the contests themselves causes massive fanfare for particular RPGs that (in relation to the above) causes them to be a similarly massive let-down in their first season. As the beginning stages of an RPG are used to set up plots, not much tends to actually happen in that time, people get bored, and then they disappear, prematurely killing the RPG (hello, Perpetual!) Again, you don't tend to run into that issue with OTC RPGs or the BZPRPG (from what I've seen,) because there is no forum-wide, flag-waving competition to catch peoples' interest. Instead you conceive an RPG or a plot, maybe advertise it a little bit to get opinions and feedback, and then submit it for approval, after which point you start to catch more interest in it from people who weren't already on-board with the idea. Quick, quiet, easy. It gives you more time to set things up and it doesn't promise things that won't immediately be delivered.

Wrong. The amount of fanfare a game gets is not directly proportional to how popular it is. There are plenty of games in OTC that have gotten great fanfare and succeeded, as well as ones that were greatly anticipated by failed because of lack of players. Similarly, The Gate had massive fanfare and was a smashing success.

 

It doesn't help at all that by mid-season both the players and the GM are already distracted by the prospect of another approaching contest, which drags attention away even further--the GM has to focus on advertising their RPG so that they, again, do not run out of time to do what they plan to do in their game, cutting into their ability to focus on their stories, while the players' attention is taken away by the same advertisement war that is meant to prolong the RPG they're playing in.

I would say this is a factor, but not the biggest one.

 

Finally, to me, it seems as if the contests subdue the full creative abilities of the forum. By this I mean that the winners of the contests tend to be those players who are well-known, have a lot of pulling power, and in general simply can exert more sway over the populous than the other contestants. I don't want to use the term "popularity contest," but there have been instances in the past where those two words have been more than appropriate. As a side-effect, we're stuck with repeat performances by many GMs--there's little new blood being let onto the game scene. Maybe that's a good thing, maybe not, but it does have an effect one way or another. I know I'm not the only one who has noticed those contests where it's barely a five-way tie between games with well-known, proven GMs and those with newer ones who have still managed to create fascinating stories, only to lose to the former.

Oh, these contests are absolutely popularity contests, and it's pushed out an incredible amount of new blood thanks to that. If there was a way to submit games anonymously and judge them on their own merits, I think that might mitigate this point.

 

EDIT: Taking the above paragraph into consideration, I would be in support of the two-GM requirement.

 

Point being, the limit on the number of active Bionicle RPGs at a given time is stifling, something I find completely bizarre considering BZP is a Bionicle website that does not regulate the number of non-Bionicle RPGs that can be up at once.

Yeah, this is a little strange, but I am of the opinion that the general quality of winning BRPGs is higher than that of their OTC cousins--which, if I remember the original RPG Contest correctly, was the whole point.

 

:w:


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#18 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted May 27 2013 - 03:39 PM

Wrong. The amount of fanfare a game gets is not directly proportional to how popular it is. There are plenty of games in OTC that have gotten great fanfare and succeeded, as well as ones that were greatly anticipated by failed because of lack of players. Similarly, The Gate had massive fanfare and was a smashing success.

I'll admit that such a case is not universal, but there's no denying that it does have an effect on certain RPGs. This is precisely what happened with my last BRPG attempt, Perpetual--I gained a big enough following to win the contest that I entered it in, causing expectations from the players to be a bit too high for me to meet within the first month, after which point the game died. Although, admittedly, the fact that it was an AU to Day Run was likely connected to that, but it is not the only time that has happened.

 

EDIT: Rethinking this, I suppose you're right--it's not an issue that would be dealt with even under a different system. I'll concede that point.

 

I would say this is a factor, but not the biggest one.

Maybe not the biggest, but certainly a big one. It has happened with literally every season of every BRPG I've ever run--activity slows down substantially by month #3 and doesn't pick up again until after the approaching contest, primarily due to attention aimed toward said contest.

 

Yeah, this is a little strange, but I am of the opinion that the general quality of winning BRPGs is higher than that of their OTC cousins--which, if I remember the original RPG Contest correctly, was the whole point.

Fair enough. Although I think that same level of quality could be kept even with a different system--after all, the same people who are critiquing BRPGs now would still be doing so under, say, an OTC-style approval system, would they not?


Edited by Parugi, May 27 2013 - 03:42 PM.

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#19 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 03:44 PM

No, they wouldn'. Mostly because the only people who would have a vote would be the Judges, rather than the forum as a whole.

 

:w:


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#20 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted May 27 2013 - 04:06 PM

Critiquing, not approving. In OTC you can still get pre-submission, public reviews to find out what you need to fix without going through the judges (assuming such a system was adopted here,) just like the contest review topics before the polls--in fact just like the RPG Planning topic we already have. I see no reason why that wouldn't be the case under a different approval system.

 

In fact, I imagine quality control would work better in BRPG under that kind of system than it does in OTC, considering how... thorough most BRPG players tend to be in reviews compared to OTC players. The only issue I see with it at the moment is the whole "public vote vs. private vote" problem, which is something that can be figured out--though I'm sure an adjustment could be made to maintain the public approval aspect of it.


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#21 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 04:15 PM

I personally have had bad experiences with the OTC system. I have found that it tends to stifle creativity and experimentation, which have always been the cornerstones of my RPGs.

 

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#22 Offline Justin Bieber

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Posted May 27 2013 - 04:41 PM

I personally have had bad experiences with the OTC system. I have found that it tends to stifle creativity and experimentation, which have always been the cornerstones of my RPGs. :w:

That may be true, but the fact is that OCT RPGs are more popular than BRPGs, regardless of creativity or experimentation. Maybe BRPGs need less of those in order to attract more players and activity. It's the BRPG system that's not working, not the OTCRPG system.

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#23 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 04:52 PM

Until recently, I feel the need to point out, the OTC system wasn't working either. They're currently testing the revamping they did.

 

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#24 Offline brother-in-lawford

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:09 PM

I, myself, feel that the contests cause a part of the problem; when you know there's going to be another contest and three new RPGs in the next month, month and a half, the RPGs start to lose a lot of that base as everybody gets up into the pre-contest anticipation. "Oh, something new is coming? I have to go plan!"

 

Another thing that I think might be a part of the problem is the player base; a lot of the people joining the RPG forum and its RPGs, nowadays, are newer members, or at least, members that aren't used to spending so much time playing and writing as they do now. I don't particularly know what to do about this, at the moment - people are fickle - though part of what I suggest later might help.

 

Another thing is, like Parugi said (same as the above, really), the time you have for the RPGs. Three months is hardly enough time at all to set up a good, riveting plot, or build a good player base, for some RPGs. I've had that problem myself; the RPG I submitted and won with was set for a rather massive plot. Then I had a moment where the time crunch really hit me, so I had to speed things up, and still, it didn't get finished. So, instead of shortening the time period, it might in fact be better to lengthen it, and maybe have an overlap with other RPGs coming up, if you want to keep the same quarter-annual contest structure.

 

As to increasing the number of winners...I don't know about that. That could, potentially, work; at the same time, it could dilute activity so much that the problem we have now might not work.

 

I, myself, agree with Parugi that an OTC-style approval system might work better. We could have more RPGs, they could get more quickly approved if we manage to pick a staff that will come online often, and, not only would it help draw people into the RPGs, it could help draw people from other parts of the site, given the wider range of RPGs and ideas they could join in.

 

@Lloyd: What you mention about a lack of creativity is, in part, facilitated by the number of sources the OTC RPGs can draw upon as a base, instead of something like Bionicle, which, compared to some of what you see in the OTC Forum (X-Men, Mass Effect, Digimon, Pokemon) isn't as developed, and besides that, it'd be all Bionicle. Creativity would be a necessity. As to your concerns about quality, it would turn out similarly to most markets out in the world, like, say, with videogames; some will be high quality but not popular, some won't be as high quality but vastly more popular, and any other permutation you can think of along some sliding scale. If judges approve it but nobody likes it, they won't play it in favour of other, more likable RPGs, and the selection process would work out rather easily. And we could have longer running RPGs where you can actually get a full world set up, rather than a three-month timespan to try and crunch things together or set things up slowly and run the risk of losing your players for a later, sequel RPG.


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#25 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:17 PM

It has nothing to do with the source material. My experimentation has, recently, been in the area of game mechanics, and given the OTC Judges' revulsion to anything more complication than 2+2=4, this causes a problem. This forum is more amenable to that, as people didn't seem to have a problem with the sanity system from my last entry.

 

You are correct about the shortness of the terms. I like the idea of having overlapping contest terms. That gives me an idea. Divide the year into three "sections," so we'd have a contest every fourth month. Each contest would have one winner, but the winner of the contest would keep his slot until the same time next year. That would give us variety--a new RPG every fourth month--and it'd also give us staying power. Thoughts? Critiques?

 

:w:


Edited by Lloyd: the White Wolf, May 27 2013 - 05:18 PM.

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#26 Offline brother-in-lawford

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:28 PM

Well, I'm focusing on your first paragraph here: (First, what you said about the OTC judges...I hope for your sake none of them get insulted by that.) The only reason it seems that way is because the vast majority of people in the OTC forum are unable to adequately describe any mechanic like that, and even then, those mechanics hardly ever show up either here or there; in games where they are adequately described, so that there is no confusion, then it goes through rather easily. And, with the group of experienced RPGers we have in this part of the site, having played (and even run) BRPGs before, they'd likely be able to both describe such things well, and those set up as judges would be able to go over the RPGs very well. As you yourself have said, this forum is more amenable to advanced gameplay mechanics than the OTC forum.

 

As to the second, that wasn't quite my idea, but it does have its merits. One year duration would be better than my six months in terms of time, but at the same time, not everybody is going to like the same thing, and with only one RPG for three months, it's possible that you could have such a limited player base that the system might not work even as well as what we have now, especially if the next RPG to come up is more popular and loved than the one before it.


Edited by Ilyusha Blokfase, May 27 2013 - 05:29 PM.

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#27 Offline JustZakaro

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:28 PM

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"] Divide the year into three "sections," so we'd have a contest every fourth month. Each contest would have one winner, but the winner of the contest would keep his slot until the same time next year. That would give us variety--a new RPG every fourth month--and it'd also give us staying power. Thoughts? Critiques?[/font]

 

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]^^^[/font]

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]That. I think that'd be an effective way to have freshness come in while still allowing people to create long lasting arcs.[/font]

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Or perhaps, do something where the 1st place winner gets this sort of thing while 2nd and 3rd are the normal 3 months.[/font]

[color=rgb(128,0,128);][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Zakaro[/color] [/font][/font]


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#28 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:35 PM

Well, I'm focusing on your first paragraph here: (First, what you said about the OTC judges...I hope for your sake none of them get insulted by that.)The only reason it seems that way is because the vast majority of people in the OTC forum are unable to adequately describe any mechanic like that, and even then, those mechanics hardly ever show up either here or there; in games where they are adequately described, so that there is no confusion, then it goes through rather easily. And, with the group of experienced RPGers we have in this part of the site, having played (and even run) BRPGs before, they'd likely be able to both describe such things well, and those set up as judges would be able to go over the RPGs very well. As you yourself have said, this forum is more amenable to advanced gameplay mechanics than the OTC forum.

That phrase was one that I--and several others--have used plenty of times in chats, with said judges present. I'm not evicted from OTCRPGs yet. QED. :P

 

Also, it seems that the more a mechanic is described, the less they like it. Mostly because it seems they think that the more time you spend explaining it, the more complicated it much be, and complicated is always bad to them.

As to the second, that wasn't quite my idea, but it does have its merits. One year duration would be better than my six months in terms of time, but at the same time, not everybody is going to like the same thing, and with only one RPG for three months, it's possible that you could have such a limited player base that the system might not work even as well as what we have now, especially if the next RPG to come up is more popular and loved than the one before it.

...Sorry, can you rephrase that? I'm not sure what you mean.

 

 

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"] Divide the year into three "sections," so we'd have a contest every fourth month. Each contest would have one winner, but the winner of the contest would keep his slot until the same time next year. That would give us variety--a new RPG every fourth month--and it'd also give us staying power. Thoughts? Critiques?[/font]

 

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]^^^[/font]

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]That. I think that'd be an effective way to have freshness come in while still allowing people to create long lasting arcs.[/font]

[font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Or perhaps, do something where the 1st place winner gets this sort of thing while 2nd and 3rd are the normal 3 months.[/font]

[color=rgb(128,0,128);][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"]Zakaro[/color][font="'comic sans ms', cursive;"] [/font][/font]

That might get a bit too complicated.

 

:w:


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#29 Offline brother-in-lawford

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:38 PM

I'm saying that one RPG every three months, lasting for a year, could end up with a very limited playerbase, as others in the forum might not play it because it wasn't what they voted for; and if the next RPG coming up is viewed by nigh everybody as better than the one before it, that player base could completely collapse.

 

It could just end up a cycle where RPG after RPG dies until one is found that lasts the full year while the others are neglected. Then, when its time is up, the cycle starts again.


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#30 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:45 PM

...So, people don't play the games they don't like and do play the games they do like? Isn't that kinda the point?

 

:w:


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#31 Offline brother-in-lawford

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Posted May 27 2013 - 05:47 PM

Yes, but at the same time we're trying to solve a lack of activity. This could just lead to something similar, though less predictable, to what we have now: long periods of rather limited activity punctuated by spurts with a lot of activity.


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#32 Offline Sheogorath

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Posted May 27 2013 - 10:10 PM

I got it. Alternative voting. it's set up like this: your average voter (we shall name him MemberA) comes in and lists three RPGs they would like to play.

 

1= RPG most wanted

2= wanted, but not so much

3= would play

 

now, let's say #1 was eliminated. then, you would take MemberA's 1st vote and make it go towards #2. if some people listed another RPG as their second, it would go towards that RPG. and it keeps going until you have one winner, an RPG which the largest number of people would want to play.


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#33 Offline brother-in-lawford

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Posted May 27 2013 - 10:24 PM

So, basically, the same as what we have now, except taking it down to just one RPG.

 

And then we'll have the same problem of dying activity by the time the next contest rolls around, the same problems of crunched or just-getting-set-up plot, but condensed in one RPG.


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#34 Offline The Lorax

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Posted May 28 2013 - 01:03 AM

No, I don't think that's what he's getting at. There would still be three winners, but some votes would have more weight than others. It would be a horrendously complicated system to administer, but it could have some benefits. It has been said that "an RPG doesn't win by being a few peoples' forst choice, but by being everybody's third choice" Strack's suggestion would  be a way around that.

 

Something that seems to be mostly forgotten in the above discussion is that you can, in fact, get more than 3 months for a game already. You just have to win another contest which, if your games and plots are as fantastic and player-attracting as some of you are claiming, then winning the next contest shouldn't be too difficult. Then, if players really do want to see longer-running games, they will say so with thier votes.

 

 

By this I mean that the winners of the contests tend to be those players who are well-known, have a lot of pulling power, and in general simply can exert more sway over the populous than the other contestants. I don't want to use the term "popularity contest," but there have been instances in the past where those two words have been more than appropriate.

 

All of this is true, and I've thought the same things many times. Without completely removing the approval by popular vote, though, there isn't any way around it. Even annonymous submissions wouldn't work, because the submitters could be easily recognised by their writing styles, and would have problems answering reviews and changing their entry while remaining annonymous.

It's an unfortunate situation, to be sure, but it comes with the territory when player interest is a key factor.


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#35 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 28 2013 - 01:44 AM

No, I don't think that's what he's getting at. There would still be three winners, but some votes would have more weight than others. It would be a horrendously complicated system to administer, but it could have some benefits. It has been said that "an RPG doesn't win by being a few peoples' forst choice, but by being everybody's third choice" Strack's suggestion would  be a way around that.

 

Something that seems to be mostly forgotten in the above discussion is that you can, in fact, get more than 3 months for a game already. You just have to win another contest which, if your games and plots are as fantastic and player-attracting as some of you are claiming, then winning the next contest shouldn't be too difficult. Then, if players really do want to see longer-running games, they will say so with thier votes.

I have found this to be a bit random and unreliable. I got nothing but praise for Night of Infinity and people who said they would (and actually did, much to my surprise and disappointment--they were good RPers) leave the forum if it didn't win. It proceeded to not win.

 

By this I mean that the winners of the contests tend to be those players who are well-known, have a lot of pulling power, and in general simply can exert more sway over the populous than the other contestants. I don't want to use the term "popularity contest," but there have been instances in the past where those two words have been more than appropriate.

 

All of this is true, and I've thought the same things many times. Without completely removing the approval by popular vote, though, there isn't any way around it. Even annonymous submissions wouldn't work, because the submitters could be easily recognised by their writing styles, and would have problems answering reviews and changing their entry while remaining annonymous.

It's an unfortunate situation, to be sure, but it comes with the territory when player interest is a key factor.

I feel that anonymous submissions, while not a solution, would ameliorate the problem to an acceptable degree. You could easily mistake one person's writing style for something else, and the staff could remove any distinguishing marks like "thanks for the help" and signoffs like the one I'm about to use.

 

:w:


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#36 Offline brother-in-lawford

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Posted May 28 2013 - 09:24 AM

No, I don't think that's what he's getting at. There would still be three winners, but some votes would have more weight than others. It would be a horrendously complicated system to administer, but it could have some benefits. It has been said that "an RPG doesn't win by being a few peoples' forst choice, but by being everybody's third choice" Strack's suggestion would  be a way around that.

...

 

I got it. Alternative voting. it's set up like this: your average voter (we shall name him MemberA) comes in and lists three RPGs they would like to play.

 

1= RPG most wanted

2= wanted, but not so much

3= would play

 

now, let's say #1 was eliminated. then, you would take MemberA's 1st vote and make it go towards #2. if some people listed another RPG as their second, it would go towards that RPG. and it keeps going until you have one winner, an RPG which the largest number of people would want to play.

 

 

it keeps going until you have one winner

 

Are you sure about that, Lorax?


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#37 Offline Pears Nivans

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Posted May 28 2013 - 10:33 AM

Something that seems to be mostly forgotten in the above discussion is that you can, in fact, get more than 3 months for a game already. You just have to win another contest which, if your games and plots are as fantastic and player-attracting as some of you are claiming, then winning the next contest shouldn't be too difficult. Then, if players really do want to see longer-running games, they will say so with thier votes.

That's the issue, though. So many RPGs aren't able to get a second or third season because the first three months are spent setting up the plot, a process that ends up causing people to get bored and lose interest, and as a result, causing the RPG to die. Yes, there are some cases where that is avoided, but in general this is what tends to happen. Either that or you have a situation like Day Run where it was essentially running every other season, particularly toward the end of its story, which also causes people to lose interest. It would be better for all involved to give the RPGs in question a longer run-time, quite plainly.


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#38 Offline More Fierce Than Fire

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Posted May 28 2013 - 11:03 AM

(First, what you said about the OTC judges...I hope for your sake none of them get insulted by that.)

Nah, we tend to just roll our eyes and ignore him when he starts going on like that :P

 

 

I know the contests themselves get advertising on the main page, but I've noticed that the winners don't. Unlike the winners of, say, the flash fiction contests there's no message on the homepage saying "hey come look at this thing that a lot of people liked!"

I'm not sure how much that would to bring in players, but it would certainly be a start


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#39 Offline Lloyd: the White Wolf

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Posted May 28 2013 - 12:27 PM

If you phrase it like that, an article about the winners actually makes a lot of sense.

 

:w:


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#40 Online Black Six

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Posted May 28 2013 - 01:12 PM

Lots of great feedback, and lots to consider.I think one of the key things is to not make things too complicated. I'm very wary of staggered contests with some RPGs running while a new contest is going on and things of that nature. I understand your concerns about not having enough time to ramp things up, although it seemed to work just fine in the past - what do you feel has changed?The idea of anonymity during the entry period is interesting. I guess it depends on if you prefer to get feedback or if you prefer reputations to be removed from the contest.The idea of stopping the contests has been brought up before, but I don't think there was enough support at the time to make me consider it.
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