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Most OP Villains?


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74 replies to this topic

#1 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:02 PM

Which villan set (six of them, you know, one wave) seemed the most over-powered and dangerous compared to the Toa they were up against?  

 

My vote is the Barraki or Bohrok Kal, since the Nuva didn;t have powers to face them.


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#2 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:17 PM

Ultimate Dume...


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#3 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:25 PM

That certain giant robot...:P 

 

But more realistically, the 2008 Makuta, or any time the Makuta showed up in combat. 


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#4 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:27 PM

That certain giant robot... :P

 

As the topic said, it has to be a set, and I just picked the Biggest Villain set :)

 

Or Wait, take the Bahrag... The Toa couldn't defait them at all...


Edited by Dual Matrix, Jun 03 2013 - 01:27 PM.

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#5 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:30 PM

That certain giant robot... :P

 

As the topic said, it has to be a set, and I just picked the Biggest Villain set :)

 

Or Wait, take the Bahrag... The Toa couldn't defait them at all...

The Bahrag were protocaged by the Toa without much fanfare, compared to the Vakama/Makuta battle (s). 


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#6 Offline Dual Matrix

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:33 PM

 

That certain giant robot... :P

 

As the topic said, it has to be a set, and I just picked the Biggest Villain set :)

 

Or Wait, take the Bahrag... The Toa couldn't defait them at all...

The Bahrag were protocaged by the Toa without much fanfare, compared to the Vakama/Makuta battle (s). 

 

You could argue... I don't consider the Protocase as a defait for the Bahrag, you basicly could protocase everyone if you catch them by suprise...


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#7 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 01:46 PM

 

 

That certain giant robot... :P

 

As the topic said, it has to be a set, and I just picked the Biggest Villain set :)

 

Or Wait, take the Bahrag... The Toa couldn't defait them at all...

The Bahrag were protocaged by the Toa without much fanfare, compared to the Vakama/Makuta battle (s). 

 

You could argue... I don't consider the Protocase as a defait for the Bahrag, you basicly could protocase everyone if you catch them by suprise...

The Bahrag didn't need to be defeated, just protocaged. They were actually a force for good in the end. That doesn't mean that they were OP.  


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#8 Offline avak5

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 02:12 PM

The Bohrok-Kal. They almost unleashed the Bahrag again and if there wasnt a legendary kanohi of time or nuva symbols idk what would have happened


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#9 Offline XONAR

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 02:20 PM

The Piraka kicked some Toa Nuva butt, so I would say they were the most OP and dangerous. 


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#10 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 02:56 PM

They weren't OP they were just smart. 


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#11 Offline Al the Chicken Man

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 03:11 PM

They weren't OP they were just smart. 

Are you sure 'smart' is the word you're looking for? They defeated the Toa Nuva, the strongest Toa known to the universe at that point, with brute force. It was stated multiple times that they weren't the brightest lightstones in the quarry.In my opinion, the '08 Makuta were the most overpowered enemies we've seen. They pounded the Nuva a few times, and they didn't even use 90% of their powers. They were really holding back, and they could've killed the Nuva if they've chosen to, especially with Icarax backing them up.

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#12 Offline Toatapio Nuva

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 03:17 PM

Bohrok-Kal. Probably the closest to ever defeat the good time, right after Makuta who actually succeeded.


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#13 Offline ToaN

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 03:32 PM

The 2008 Makuta, specifically the Phantoka wave. 5 Makuta, each with 40+ individual powers (plus Masks), against four Toa and a few Matoran? Waaay too uneven. If the Makuta didn't need the Toa to fulfill the Plan, they could have destroyed them within minutes.

 

Well, I guess the Toa Ignika could have beat the Makuta. Since he controls life itself, he could have simply turned the Makuta "off".

 


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#14 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 03:36 PM

it wouldn't be that simple. If the Makuta wanted Ignika dead, they'd zap him with plasma. 

 

Also, the Piraka were constantly described as intelligent and cunning, not dumb brutes like most skakdi. They beat the Toa with strategic advantages. If the Toa had not just awoken from their canisters, they very likely could've beat them.


Edited by slifer3000, Jun 03 2013 - 03:38 PM.

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#15 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 04:12 PM

With a note that I reject the premise of overpowered antagonists in general, I think it obviously would have to be the 2008 Makuta. No contest. :P


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#16 Offline Valendale

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 05:34 PM

[color=#00ffff;]Facing a team of eight, each with about as much power as the previous main villain? Yeah 2008.[/color]


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#17 Offline Dralcax

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 07:38 PM

The 08 Makuta, no doubt. The first wave was blind, the second was missing a few powers, but if they hadn't been holding back, you would have 6 dead Toa Nuva and one very frustrated Teridax.


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#18 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 08:23 PM

The Makuta--any Makuta--by far. The only reason the '08 Makuta didn't walk all over the Toa Nuva was due to a serious case of Conservation of Ninjitsu, or whatever the hipsters are calling it these days.

 

Of course, Krika probably wasn't giving it his all, and Antroz was stated to have a sense of honor. But there's no reason Bitil alone shouldn't have been able to take them all on. Supposedly some of his time duplicates should still have had their full power set, so with the help of Gorast, Icarax, the Phantoka Makuta, and so forth, they should have been more that enough.

 

Then again, I've always felt somewhat that the Toa Nuva were often portrayed the same way. They're supposedly far more powerful than other Toa, but outside of the occasional Nuva-exclusive ability, have we ever seen a Toa Nuva go all out?


Edited by LewaLew, Jun 03 2013 - 08:25 PM.

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#19 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 08:52 PM

But there's no reason Bitil alone shouldn't have been able to take them all on.

Just on the off chance we don't all know this, the Brotherhood forces were intentionally holding back to allow the Toa to "win" since that was needed for the Plan to work. Maybe that's what you meant to imply with "conservation of ninjitsu", but looking up that trope on a certain site, it doesn't sound very apt for this. :P (At least skimming; maybe you can explain what you meant by it though so I won't overthink it -- it seems to mean that bad guys get mysteriously wimpier in larger numbers with no good plot reason, but this clearly was necessary plotwise because if the Makuta "won" their goal would be lost.)


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#20 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 09:02 PM

But there's no reason Bitil alone shouldn't have been able to take them all on.

Just on the off chance we don't all know this, the Brotherhood forces were intentionally holding back to allow the Toa to "win" since that was needed for the Plan to work. Maybe that's what you meant to imply with "conservation of ninjitsu", but looking up that trope on a certain site, it doesn't sound very apt for this. :P (At least skimming; maybe you can explain what you meant by it though so I won't overthink it -- it seems to mean that bad guys get mysteriously wimpier in larger numbers with no good plot reason, but this clearly was necessary plotwise because if the Makuta "won" their goal would be lost.)

What about Icarax? While he doesn't necessarily apply to the ninjitsu thing, it's clear he cares nothing for Teridax's plan short of the threat of retaliation by the other Makuta should he rebel, and if he thought it unnecessary, he would gladly take out at least one of the Toa Nuva.


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#21 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 09:22 PM

the threat of retaliation by the other Makuta should he rebel

Well I'm a bit rusty on this part but off the top of my head I presume that part in quotes is the answer.


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#22 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 09:30 PM

the threat of retaliation by the other Makuta should he rebel

Well I'm a bit rusty on this part but off the top of my head I presume that part in quotes is the answer.

Maybe. Then again, Antroz specifically brought Icarax in to put the hurt on the Toa Nuva. Maybe not kill them, but definitely to do a lot more than he did.


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#23 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 09:46 PM

Then there's always my theory that the Toa Nuva weren't just hoto bugs to kill... 


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#24 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 09:53 PM

Keep in mind Icarax got cursed too.


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#25 Offline XONAR

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 10:18 PM

I completely forgot about the Makuta when I made my first post. Forget the Piraka! A Makuta could take out all the Toa Nuva and all the Piraka in one battle!
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#26 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 03 2013 - 11:40 PM

Also, Icarax didn't really want to help in Karda Nui. His beef was with Teridax (sort of) and he didn't really care if the Plan worked or not. If it did, he would enjoy his vacation on Destral. If it didn't, he would begin his own pursuit of power. The only reason he was even there was that he was bored with the Makuta version of Spider Solitaire. :P

 

I don't think he was trying too hard. 


Edited by fishers64, Jun 03 2013 - 11:41 PM.

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#27 Offline Al the Chicken Man

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 12:00 AM

Then there's always my theory that the Toa Nuva weren't just hoto bugs to kill... 

I would hardly say this was anyone's implication or intended meaning. It's just that the fly-swatter could kill said Hoto bugs with an arsenal of powerful tools. :PAdditionally, to respond to an earlier statement of mine, Biosector01 states that they defeated the Nuva with the help of Brutaka, as opposed to strategic combat. This may be my memory failing, but where does it state that all the Piraka were cunning an intelligent? I seem to remember all but Zaktan and Avak being at least somewhat brutish.

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#28 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 12:11 AM

Well, the Piraka did know and use much strategic combat. They weren't picked as Dark Hunters by accident. The problem was more that they turned their cunning so often on each other rather than a truly united force against their enemies (and their goal was utter folly to begin with; you don't sell the Ignika for a profit lol).

 

Vezok, however, was pretty much a dumb brute as a result of the accident with the spear of Fusion. Prior to that he was actually among the smartest of them.

 

And all of them had brutish traits as a result of Spiriah's tampering. I would count Avak in that, definitely, and even Zaktan to some extent. But being brutelike and being smart are not mutually exclusive despite the common tropey misconception. They were, if you will, smart brutes -- the sort of beings the Shadowed One preferred for mercenaries. But probably not as smart as most Dark Hunters, since they rebelled. Twice. :P (Other than Avak; it was once for him. Anywho.)


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#29 Online Damaracx The Mad Scientist

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 05:37 AM

The 2008 Makuta, specifically the Phantoka wave. 5 Makuta, each with 40+ individual powers (plus Masks), against four Toa and a few Matoran? Waaay too uneven. If the Makuta didn't need the Toa to fulfill the Plan, they could have destroyed them within minutes.

 

Well, I guess the Toa Ignika could have beat the Makuta. Since he controls life itself, he could have simply turned the Makuta "off".

[color=#ff0000;]Off, on, off, on.....that would be fun to do that to somebody.............[/color]


Edited by Damaracx 7.0, Jun 04 2013 - 05:37 AM.

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#30 Offline Katuko

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 07:44 AM

Then again, I've always felt somewhat that the Toa Nuva were often portrayed the same way. They're supposedly far more powerful than other Toa, but outside of the occasional Nuva-exclusive ability, have we ever seen a Toa Nuva go all out?

Gali's Nova Blast would pretty much be an "all-out". It completely leveled everything on a landmass estimated to be at least the size of a county.

 

The fight with Icarax in Karzahni might have been a typical Makuta encounter, though, if they weren't holding back. He downed the Nuva with little trouble, and Gali was able to save her team only because Icarax took the time to gloat. The tidal wave still couldn't actually stop Icarax, just make him to retreat. Gali might have been unable to control the wave fully because her power had already been drained from conjuring it, so a smaller wave (say, like the one Helryx created) would be interesting to see under Gali's control.


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#31 Offline Toa Smoke Monster

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 11:19 AM

I'd say the 08 Makuta were the most OP villains ever seen in the storyline. As others have said, if the Nuva 'winning' wasn't part of Teridax's plan, they would've been killed off in minutes the Makuta.


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#32 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 01:44 PM

Keep in mind Icarax got cursed too.

All the more reason for him to kill somebody. And I was reading Shadows in the Sky yesterday. Among only other Makuta, Antroz specifically states that they are going to kill the Toa Nuva. Presumably just the Phantoka Nuva, since killing the Mistika Nuva obviously would have thrown a monkey wrench into the Plan.

 

Also, Icarax didn't really want to help in Karda Nui. His beef was with Teridax (sort of) and he didn't really care if the Plan worked or not. If it did, he would enjoy his vacation on Destral. If it didn't, he would begin his own pursuit of power. The only reason he was even there was that he was bored with the Makuta version of Spider Solitaire. :P

 

I don't think he was trying too hard. 

He wasn't, definitely. The question is why. Boredom doesn't explain it. It would be well within the bounds of his personality for Icarax to kill Toa Nuva because it made his day interesting.

 

Then again, I've always felt somewhat that the Toa Nuva were often portrayed the same way. They're supposedly far more powerful than other Toa, but outside of the occasional Nuva-exclusive ability, have we ever seen a Toa Nuva go all out?

Gali's Nova Blast would pretty much be an "all-out". It completely leveled everything on a landmass estimated to be at least the size of a county.

 

The fight with Icarax in Karzahni might have been a typical Makuta encounter, though, if they weren't holding back. He downed the Nuva with little trouble, and Gali was able to save her team only because Icarax took the time to gloat. The tidal wave still couldn't actually stop Icarax, just make him to retreat. Gali might have been unable to control the wave fully because her power had already been drained from conjuring it, so a smaller wave (say, like the one Helryx created) would be interesting to see under Gali's control.

Gali Nuva's Nova Blast wasn't portrayed much differently than say, Jaller's potential Nova blast in Mahri Nui. Jaller's would even have been severely weakened by being underwater, yet it was treated as a doomsday blast just the same. In fact, all Nova Blasts are portrayed pretty much the same--as an elemental nuke.

 

I'm referring more to regular  use of elemental power. For instance, Gali as a Toa Mata flooded some Tahnok in the middle of the desert. Could a Nuva maybe sink an island, a la Atlantis?

 

You're right--the Karzahni fight is far closer to what a Makuta fight should be. Yet Icarax seemed to be unable to match his previous encounter with the Nuva once he was in Karda Nui, or even take out one of them.


Edited by LewaLew, Jun 04 2013 - 01:45 PM.

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#33 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 02:31 PM

All the more reason for him to kill somebody.

Some characters, yes, but this doesn't seem to fit Icarax's personality. He's got bluster sometimes, but he backs down when he gets hurt or thinks he might get hurt worse. Not the first time he's done that; remember when Teridax put him in his place once. He was also among the last to join any side at the Convocation. He's got a temper, but little ambition and a lot of self-preservation.

 

And I was reading Shadows in the Sky yesterday. Among only other Makuta, Antroz specifically states that they are going to kill the Toa Nuva. Presumably just the Phantoka Nuva, since killing the Mistika Nuva obviously would have thrown a monkey wrench into the Plan.

Who does he say it too, etc.? Either it was a bluff, if said to the Nuva, or he changed his mind for some reason, or maybe didn't actually want to do that all that much so let the Nuva fight their way past a minimal challenge.

 

Also, Greg said at one point that all six Nuva were needed for the Plan. So they couldn't kill even just one. He also said, when he said that, that it was still possible one might die and some alternate method would be used, and now we know it was -- the Ignika, but still, the Makuta wouldn't have gambled for no reason on narrowing their options to just one like that. There's just no reason to kill the Nuva. Even if Antroz said it in the heat of a moment, I highly doubt he would actually do it, for example.

 

Wouldn't be the first story to have a bad guy want to kill a good guy and even say they would but know that really they can't because they need them for something. :P

 

Also, did he mean kill them before they carried out their mission? If after it would be no problem at all. If ambiguous, could mean after.

 

He wasn't, definitely. The question is why. Boredom doesn't explain it. It would be well within the bounds of his personality for Icarax to kill Toa Nuva because it made his day interesting.

In any other context, yes, but here his self-preservation probably kicked in, knowing the other Makuta might have made him pay for it.

 

Yet Icarax seemed to be unable to match his previous encounter with the Nuva once he was in Karda Nui, or even take out one of them.

But the whole point we're making here is that you can't assume "didn't" means "was unable to". That assumes that all villains are always on maximum killing-spree mode. That just isn't realistic. :P Especially since we do know the Makuta wanted the Nuva to "succeed".


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#34 Offline LewaLew

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 02:58 PM

Icarax was big on self-preservation, but also on pride. At that point, probably the only enemy he would consider to be a threat was Ignika, not the Toa Nuva, particularly since they had already had the tar beaten out of them in Karzahni by him before.

 

Antroz made the statement to the Makuta when Icarax first arrived. The Toa Nuva were in the Stalactite Villages at the time. It was immediately before the last battle in the sky, when Icarax was cursed by Ignika and eventually ended in stalemate when Antroz ordered his forces into the swamp to help Krika's team. When describing Vamprah's thoughts, the book also mentions that he didn't finish off Lewa Nuva after Mutran's Nova Blast because the Plan came first, though the stated reason was that Antroz wanted them in the swamp to slow down the Mistika Toa Nuva from finding the other keystones, not that they needed to spare the Nuva.

 

To be honest though, I think that the statement by Antroz and the description of Vamprah's thoughts I just mentioned probably were thrown in just to throw off the reader. Though it doesn't make sense that Antroz would suggest something that is so obviously contradictory to the Plan that he clearly is putting first in every other instance when in the presence of only other Makuta.


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#35 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 03:51 PM

That makes me wonder if he thought someone might be eavesdropping. Maybe they'd planned before ever stepping foot in Karda Nui to speak as if they wanted to kill the Toa and never let on otherwise just in case a spy might report the content of their internal meetings to the Toa.


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#36 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 05:21 PM

Then why did Icarax go after Toa Ignika then? That doesn't sound like self-preservation to me, more like "I'm bored, and this looks like a challenge, better than these lame Toa I have no interest in killing anyway."Of course (:P), Icarax could be bored and interested in preserving his life at the same time. The possibilities need not be mutually exclusive. :shrugs: But charging the Mask of Life itself and casually taunting it for fun does not sound like self-preservation. It kind of makes sense in the light of the fact that he had nearly beaten this whole team before (The Toa Nuva) by himself, and now there's a whole group (of Makuta) playing chicken with just the three of them. It's almost as if Icarax was, um, bored, and decided to stick it to the others - "Now here is a real threat" - only to get defeated.
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#37 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 05:35 PM

Did Icarax appreciate the power (and cursing nature) of the Ignika?

 

Regardless, probably the best description of Icarax is "unstable." You just can't fit people like that (even in real life) in nice tidy molds that always follow one trait consistently. (Really, that's true to some extent of everyone, but some more so than others.)


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#38 Offline Underscore

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 08:08 PM

The Piraka  :P . They've gotta be the most insane, powerful, villains to set foot in the MU...


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#39 Offline slifer3000

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 09:52 PM

that's not possible


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Want to know how to make a blind Toa cry?

                   

                       Give him a Kanohi Hau.

 

 


#40 Offline fishers64

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Posted Jun 04 2013 - 10:55 PM

Did Icarax appreciate the power (and cursing nature) of the Ignika?

 

Regardless, probably the best description of Icarax is "unstable." You just can't fit people like that (even in real life) in nice tidy molds that always follow one trait consistently. (Really, that's true to some extent of everyone, but some more so than others.)

 

To the first question, I doubt it. He probably should have, logically (this thing just repaired the universe and is powerful, but I don't think he was thinking logically. He's not Kopaka. 

 

To the last part, I agree. I was merely defending my assertion that boredom was a factor, and that self-preservation wasn't the only factor governing his actions. 


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