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Issue Information

  • #000057

  • Suggestion

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COT Library

Posted by Aderia on Nov 26 2012 - 08:14 PM

     I don’t like to think of myself as a stickler for organization, but sometimes there are certain things that are just a bit too chaotic for my brain. One being the matter of a COT Library, here on BZP. I’m not addressing it just for my sake, either. I know the majority of BZPower’s writing community would benefit from this. From what I know, there have been disagreements over this matter. I took the time to organize opinions, statements, and facts here in favor of getting a separate COT Library. There is necessity, there is demand, and there are writers and readers alike ready to run it.

          I. Necessity

     I’ve seen many stories from great authors while browsing on BZP. Ever since the Bionicle storyline ended, more and more stories have sprung up in the COT forum. The problem is that the perfectly decent stories in COT disappear in the mass of other topics, sometimes vanishing into the back-pages in a matter of hours. Sure, some dedicated readers will dig for the lost diamonds in the rough, but for the most part, they don’t even realize what they’re missing. The same problem exists for the writers who decide to publish their stories on their blog, except with the added hiccup that they may not have a blog. Worst case scenario, and this has happened, stories get ignored, authors lose self esteem, people leave BZP, lose/lose in the end.

          II.Demand

     One of the reasons so many accomplished BZP authors have started expanding into COT is because there is no canon Bionicle storyline to fuel their fanfictions anymore. Basically, they’ve moved on. If they see that they can’t work in COT, they’ll move on.


4.) Do you want a CoT Library? Why? If a CoT Library existed, how often would you make use of it?

No and no. There are other writing sites to post CoT work on. Posting it on here is not prudent IMO. You can get money for that stuff.

(Source)

     I’m not calling anyone out here. This quote just leads nicely into my next point. Basically, home will be where the heart is.

     I’m not the only writer who started off here on BZP. I’ve made quite a few friends with whom I write. It would be great to be able to share a story that doesn’t revolve around robots who are more or less talking flamethrowers, leaf blowers, power washers, etc. living inside giant robots. I’d like to be able to do so without my work being overwhelmed by the rest of COT. Not only that, I’d like to share it with readers who are already familiar with my work. Getting money for my writing, as of now, is not something I am capable of. If it were, I would not still be here.

          III. Population

     I know for a fact that there are multiple staff members ready,willing, more than capable of moderating the COT Library.

      And for the people.


4.) Do you want a CoT Library? Why? If a CoT Library existed, how often would you make use of it?
(I imagine most writers are in favor of this one, despite how unlikely it is. Unless, of course, you enjoy having your CoT written work get kicked into obscurity within hours.)

(Source)

A COT Library would be nice, but I'm not sure how often I'd use it, considering the vast majority of my BZP stories are Bionicle fanfics. Definitely would support it, though, if only to help COT stories get more attention.

(Source)

Yes, I do want a COT Library. I don't usually post COT stuff here because there's no real point - why post if nobody will ever see it again after an hour? That's no fun. However, at this point in time I don't think a COT Library would need to be split into things like SS, Epics, and Comedies.

(Source)

I think my thoughts on this are fairly obvious, but to those who do not know me: Yes, I definitely want a COT Library. BZPower has been incredibly influential to me as a writer -- it's where I began, and BZPower is where I first gained interest in writing in the first place. Not to mention I have made many friends who are also writers on here. As such, I'd love to be able to keep writing here and sharing my works here (as I no longer write Bionicle fanfiction), without them getting buried in a matter of, sometimes, hours. I think a whole COT Creative Outlet could be extremely beneficial (just a single forum, even) to all creative members here. I have written, literally, pages of arguments for having a COT Library, and am definitely in full support.

How often would I use it? Very often. I'd try to post at least once a day there, if not more. I'd love to have a forum for the writing community (or even just art community in general) on BZPower.

Posted Image

(Source)

I would like a COT Library. It would be really helpful for members who post COT epics, short shories, and comedies. (And I bet it would help get more reviews too.) I would probably use it as much as I use the current Library forums- not often. :P

(Source)

Yeah. It makes it much easier to find stories in the random area that is CoT. I would probably visit it regularly to look for stories to read.

(Source)

4.) Do you want a CoT Library? Why? If a CoT Library existed, how often would you make use of it?

Yes! Most certainly yes. My stories are forever getting buried by stupid "What are you listening to" topics and such. I'd make use of it quite a lot if it existed.

(Source)

     Although the number of people in favor of a COT Library outweighs the number of people against the a COT Library, the opinions represented in the BZP Library Discussion Topic do not speak for everyone. Understand also, I am aware this is not a numbers game, nor am I trying to turn this into one.

     One of those arguments against a COT library has already been addressed above. Here is the second.

4.) Do you want a CoT Library? Why? If a CoT Library existed, how often would you make use of it?


I doubt a CoT Library will ever happen. There's a good amount of members posting their non-LEGO stories in CoT and blogs, so I know there is a bit of a demand. But if B6 allows a CoT Library, it would open the door for creating a CoT-whatever-else-creative-forum just because of demand. This could result in many non-BIONICLE or LEGO forums. The BZP Administration wants to keep the site focused primarily on BIONICLE and secondary on LEGO. I understand their reasoning. In the end, it's their call, not mine.

If there was a CoT Library, I'm not sure how much I personally would use it, as I'm no longer interested in sharing the things I write on BZP.

(Source)

     Making a COT Library wouldn’t be about making a non-LEGO forum. Making a non-LEGO/BIONICLE forum would be throwing in video game discussion, real life discussion, etc. etc. Allowing a COT Library is allowing creativity to be expressed, which is what LEGO is all about.Looking at how things stand today, the behemoth that is COT is essentially smothering the work that writers produce.




     In the long run, not having a COT Library would be harmful to BZPower. People have been coming to BZP all these years. Since BIONICLE, an essential part of the foundation of this community, has stopped moving forwards, its only a matter of time before the community itself follows. Even now, the traffic that could be flowing through stories that don't tell about Toa and Matoran. But traffic can't flow through a road that's been buried in an avalanche of other topics, right? It turns around and finds another road, never to be seen again. And we don't want that.

     A COT Library would be easy to manage with experienced writers and leaders running it, and a close-knit group of responsible writers from all the branches of the original Library working there. Additionally, it would not detract from the LEGO-esque ideal upheld by BZPower. It would bolster it by promoting creativity.


     Multiple writers can trace their roots in the craft to here on BZPower, where they began. If a writing pastime on a Lego Fansite blossomed into a successful writing career, it would be a bragging point for BZP. A perfect example would be our very own Galigee. Lots of good has come and is coming from the BZP Library, and opening up a COT Library would keep it that way.

     In short, implementing a COT Library would be low risk, running it would be low maintenance, and if it turns out to be a flop, there is nothing lost.

=D Every little bit helps!! I really love seeing all this support, thanks guys and bros!!

:kaukau: As you know by now, Aderia, I have now had a slight change of opinion.  I still stand by some of the things that I said earlier as valid, although increasingly your argument about creativity being an inherent part of LEGO continually grows on me, and after looking at the Bionicle Library for the first time in ages, I realized just how much support writers get there in contrast to stories in COT.  Velox and Tolkien have also managed to convince me that no matter what, the nature of COT will not change.
 

24601



But how much actual activity will a CoT library actually get? I can understand the idea of getting pushed back in the CoT and getting frustrated, but it feels like it would be a really slow forum that a very small handful of members want. I have a hard time seeing that as an effective forum split, when we've purposefully merged other low-activity forums for that exact reason.
 
As for the idea that this wouldn't increase demand for other creative CoT... well that's pretty false. There's been people asking for CoT RPG forums, for CoT creative forums, etc, for a decade. We've always said no because we are a LEGO site, first-and-foremost, but secondly, because how much activity would these really bring in? I feel like that's the real rub, here.
 
I don't think it would increase any activity, but would instead add another forum that sees a few posts a week.

But how much actual activity will a CoT library actually get? I can understand the idea of getting pushed back in the CoT and getting frustrated, but it feels like it would be a really slow forum that a very small handful of members want. I have a hard time seeing that as an effective forum split, when we've purposefully merged other low-activity forums for that exact reason.

 
It would get a lot. I don't think you understand just how active the writing community is -- maybe not entirely visibly (because no one wants to post and have their story gone in an hour), but still active. I mean, you can see just from this Ticket alone, the great support that it's gotten, with nearly 40 people, in less than a week, saying they'd want it. Of course, saying you want it and actually being active are two very different things, and I definitely understand the question of activity. I myself question it -- how many of the people who say they want one, will actually be active in it? However, despite all that, I still know that the forum will still be active. Because there are some people who will be extremely active. It will be an active forum. Much more so than several other forums that we have on BZPower. 
 
The reason that the writing community is not all that active on BZPower right now is simply the fact that COT is such a crazy forum. No one wants to post their story there, because like I said, it'll be gone within a couple hours. There's no point in trying to be active, because even if in one day, a few members decided to review every single story in COT, so that the first two pages of COT were filled up, how long would that last? Another day at the most, with all the other topics in COT that get posted in many times a day. A story can really only be posted in once or twice, usually, so after that, it's done. You can try to post more stories, but it'll never compete with the activity in COT. You review, the member responds, maybe you respond again. But that's about it. And so then the topic "dies" (not literally, as there is no revival rule for stories), because it gets covered by all the other COT topics. So, if there were a forum just for stories, then people would review more. People would post stories more. Because it would actually do something. I know I would, and I know that others would as well, talking to them on Skype and elsewhere. 
 
 

As for the idea that this wouldn't increase demand for other creative CoT... well that's pretty false. There's been people asking for CoT RPG forums, for CoT creative forums, etc, for a decade. We've always said no because we are a LEGO site, first-and-foremost, but secondly, because how much activity would these really bring in? I feel like that's the real rub, here.

 
We weren't saying that this wouldn't increase demand for other creative COT forums. What we were saying is that, there's never been as much demand for one as there is for a COT Library.That said, we would also be happy with a COT Creative Outlet (as a single forum -- all art, stories, etc. all in one forum), because it would at least give us "breathing room". But hey, people can open their own tickets for other forums if they want to -- that's what the Tracker's for. And would having an RPG forum be the worst thing? Why not a Library and RPG forum, but this ticket itself is about a Library.
 
Anyway, Black Six has said no to the COT Library before because it is non-LEGO. That is the main reason he's denied it in the past, and I believe that Aderia has adequately argued that point, so I won't bother to repeat her. =]  
 
 

I don't think it would increase any activity, but would instead add another forum that sees a few posts a week.

 
It would increase activity, though, and there are many people who will vouch for that. I know that I, myself, will greatly increase my activity, and I know others that will as well. Now, sure, it won't be the most active forum -- of course not. But it would get more than "a few posts a week", definitely. 
 
 
Ultimately, we understand Black Six's and the Administration's reasonings for not having a COT Library, but we have also decided to present our case, our arguments, and show how many people support it. Of course, ultimately, it's up to Black Six and the Administration, and we will respect whatever that decision is, but why not show the overwhelming support and all the arguments for it, hence the creation of this ticket. 
 
Thank you for your post, DV -- it's always good to be able to hear the other side. I hope I cleared up some reservations you have about it. =]
 
 
Posted Image

Edited by Velox, Dec 01 2012 - 04:36 PM.



Hahli Husky
Dec 01 2012 04:29 PM

Making a COT Library wouldn’t be about making a non-LEGO forum. Making a non-LEGO/BIONICLE forum would be throwing in video game discussion, real life discussion, etc. etc.

 

Reread this ticket the other day and noted this. I need to express that this is NOT what I was saying when sharing the administration's reasoning for no COT Library thus far. What I mean is that, once a non-LEGO creative subforum is allowed, other non-LEGO creative subforums may be requested, and are very likely to be. We already have a place for general non-LEGO discussion as everyone knows. If COT role-players or artists garner similar support that a COT Library has, it would be unfair if they didn't get non-LEGO creative subforum. Just because they haven't submitted a ticket and you haven't seen them talking about it doesn't mean they haven't been asking, as well, and they have been. Nor does it mean that they won't submit tickets or start publicly discussing it. I know this is one of the first things the administration has considered when debating any sort of non-LEGO creative subforums.
 
And I mean, if people would use them, they would be pretty great to have. Even if there was one non-LEGO creative forum, where people could post stories and art and other non-LEGO creative stuff, that might be a good idea. I can't imagine things getting as buried there as they do in COT. Especially if the administration doesn't want to open the doors for more than one new forum. Just another idea.

Edited by Hahli Husky, Dec 01 2012 - 04:41 PM.



Electric Turahk
Dec 01 2012 05:32 PM
I'd likely support a separate forum combining COT library, art, game, and RPG topics while leaving the current COT only for discussion topics.

Current support does not mean there will be consistent activity if the forum is solely for a library. You say it will, but that's not real evidence. Making it be a general creative sub-forum, though? That brings in many groups that could help keep the forum active.

A new forum for a single outlet, though, I just can't get behind.

Edited by Electric Turahk, Dec 01 2012 - 06:32 PM.



I AM MELON LORD!
Dec 01 2012 06:32 PM

I'd likely support a separate forum combining COT library, art, game, and RPG topics while leaving the current COT only for discussion topics.

Current support does not mean there will be consistent activity if the forum is solely for a library. You say it will, but that's not real evidence. Making it be a genearl creative sub-forum, though? That brings in many groups that could help keep the forum active.

A new forum for a single outlet, though, I just can't get behind.

 
I really think combining all of those into one really defeats the purpose of having a subforum to begin with.  The entire reason members are requesting a separate forum for COT Stories is because games and RPGs are far more popular and bury other topics like discussions, art, stories, etc (in this case the big one would be the stories). 
 
Heck, a lot of people were against a comic subforum from General Artwork, but it was a pretty nice switch.  Comics were so popular that nobody could really post any artwork without it being buried within a few hours (the exact same issue we have here). 
 
Why not put Games and RPGs in one subforum, possibly make another to include Stories and Artwork and then leave the main forum for discussion?
 
Quite honestly, I think adding another forum would certainly bring in more activity.  The only reason I don't post artwork in COT anymore is because my topic was buried in less than an hour, got few views and died before it got a single response. 
 
If we organized COT with a few subforums, then I think it wouldn't be such a scary place to make a topic. 


Electric Turahk
Dec 01 2012 07:00 PM



I'd likely support a separate forum combining COT library, art, game, and RPG topics while leaving the current COT only for discussion topics.

Current support does not mean there will be consistent activity if the forum is solely for a library. You say it will, but that's not real evidence. Making it be a genearl creative sub-forum, though? That brings in many groups that could help keep the forum active.

A new forum for a single outlet, though, I just can't get behind.

 
I really think combining all of those into one really defeats the purpose of having a subforum to begin with.  The entire reason members are requesting a separate forum for COT Stories is because games and RPGs are far more popular and bury other topics like discussions, art, stories, etc (in this case the big one would be the stories). 
 
Heck, a lot of people were against a comic subforum from General Artwork, but it was a pretty nice switch.  Comics were so popular that nobody could really post any artwork without it being buried within a few hours (the exact same issue we have here). 
 
Why not put Games and RPGs in one subforum, possibly make another to include Stories and Artwork and then leave the main forum for discussion?
 
Quite honestly, I think adding another forum would certainly bring in more activity.  The only reason I don't post artwork in COT anymore is because my topic was buried in less than an hour, got few views and died before it got a single response. 
 
If we organized COT with a few subforums, then I think it wouldn't be such a scary place to make a topic. 
 

But some of the sub-forums would probably be pretty boring places with few topics and interest. It's all about figuring out where to draw the line so it's not too subdivided.

And I'm still not convinced a library alone would sustain itself. It has to be more than that and that's my only point. Leave the RPGs with the discussion topics if you're really that worried about them, but to me it would ensure activity would be present in both sub-forums.

I really think it is the games that bury everything. Maybe we should just put the games in their own forum so they don't bog the stories, art, and discussion down. I can't even find the discussion topics with all the meaningless game topics there are in there.

I’ve already expressed support for this, so I won’t belabor the point. I would like to address one objection (more of an alternate idea, really) that has been expressed so far:
 

I'd likely support a separate forum combining COT library, art, game, and RPG topics while leaving the current COT only for discussion topics.

 
I think this would be a great alternative, if it’s more amenable to those who aren’t for an individual COT Library. I would support it, and I think most, if not all, of the people who want a Library subforum would also be in support of it.
 
To be clear, I think one of the motivations for those suggesting a single COT Library is that it would be a “small change”. Bigger changes to COT have obviously been rejected in the past, so asking for something on a smaller scale is a logical alternative, even if it might have unintended consequences. If those in charge are okay with adding a COT Creative Outlet where art, writing, and other creative stuff can flourish, I don’t expect anyone to object. I certainly wouldn’t.
 
If the issue becomes “Creative Outlet or nothing”, there is one stipulation I’d definitely argue for though: exclude RPGs/Games. These are in no danger of being swamped by discussion topics, due to their highly active nature. I think putting them in a COT Creative Outlet would, in time, defeat the purpose of a separate forum for creative works.
 
To conclude, I’ll simply say this: I want to promote activity on a BZP in decline. The suggestion of a COT Library is one way to do that, given the fact that there is clearly support for the idea. This ticket has shown that there are many members who have a desire to be active in such a forum. We can choose to believe them or not believe them. There are, of course, other, broader solutions to the problem, such as a COT Creative Outlet, and I think that would receive an equal amount of support if it comes to that.
 
Two cents.
 
JRRT


Colette Llyan
Dec 01 2012 11:59 PM
Deevee: I may not finish my stories a lot... However, I have stuff in progress that I could probably post and work on. However, as it is, there is no real goal to me doing so, because it'll just be passed up in what would probably be minutes, especially now, as COT seems to finally be getting back into full discussion mode. The RPGs don't help either, but those come and go, so it's more the combined aspect of them. =/
 
If there were a new sub-forum, however, I would contribute a lot more than I do now, even if I haven't allocated as much time to writing as in the past. Heck, I might even throw my hat back into the reviewing ring, though I still don't do well at reviewing, so that shouldn't be expected as much. ^^'
 
However; if the worry is for that... Then what about, as others have suggested, a forum for all the 'creative' stuff, like art and writing and the like, and leave RPGs and games back in the main forum, since they aren't in danger of getting passed over as much?


Engineer Alexandra Humva
Dec 11 2012 01:19 PM
I agree with this initiative; I've made quite a few stories this past year, but I haven't posted any because I don't see the point, as it'll get kicked off the front page of COT in a matter of minutes, maybe an hour or two.
 
I don't have much of an opinion on further splitting COT though; back in the days before the upgrade, the COTRPG community was going really strong. We had a dozen active RPGs and a dozen more in the works, it was a serious business. Back then there was a major call for a subforum specifically for the RPGs.
 
Post-upgrade though, the RPG community was effectively killed. Many long time RPers had given up on the site, many had simply grown out of it, and basically activity slumped. We're beginning to see the rise out of this RPG depression in COT with some new blood being added in, but the RPG community is still small compared to what it use to be. So I don't know if it truly deserves it's own subforum at this time.

I'll testify to that. We have maybe...three? Less? Two maybe? Active RP's in COT right now. Four come to think of it. It's a far cry from the glory days.


~Shockwave~
Dec 11 2012 02:48 PM
I would also be more likely to write something if I thought it would get veiwed more often. as the last one I wrote flopped.
 
though, to be fair, I havn't seen much activity in the library...

I hope you're all happy. :)

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