In The Wrong Line of Work

[Just A Dot]

So... one thing that always bothered me, for the longest time...

Vakama was a mask maker. Why did the Toa Metru have so much trouble learning about their masks? I suppose there is always the "I know what the powers are but how the heck do I use them?" excuse, but he could at least have told the other Toa what their masks did!

And if he really did know what his power was, just not how to use it, how could he instantly use the Vahi, a mask who's exact use wasn't exactly known? Seems a bit silly that the one Toa who used to make masks couldn't figure out how to use a common mask, yet without trouble used a one-of-a-kind mask that had never been used before.

[LewaLew]

So... one thing that always bothered me, for the longest time...

Vakama was a mask maker. Why did the Toa Metru have so much trouble learning about their masks? I suppose there is always the "I know what the powers are but how the heck do I use them?" excuse, but he could at least have told the other Toa what their masks did!

And if he really did know what his power was, just not how to use it, how could he instantly use the Vahi, a mask who's exact use wasn't exactly known? Seems a bit silly that the one Toa who used to make masks couldn't figure out how to use a common mask, yet without trouble used a one-of-a-kind mask that had never been used before.

Well, as for the first thing, Kanohi aren't always in their standard shapes. After Lhikan's Hau was put on Jaller's face, it changed to be a Great-shaped mask, although it was still noble, and Krakua's Suletu was shaped like a Hau.

 

And it's generally been shown that once you know how to use one mask, using another is pretty easy. The Vahi of course is harder to control, but as far as activating the mask, it is no surprise he had no trouble activating the mask since he had already learned how to use the Huna.

[bonesiii]

it is no surprise he had no trouble activating the mask since he had already learned how to use the Huna.

Having just rewatched LoMN, I'm 99% sure he used the Vahi first, then Lhikan died, and then he realized how to use his own mask.

 

 

On-topic: Much has been said of this in past topics and I don't have time for a full post right now. I've also come up with an explanation for my retelling, which is kiiiinda spoilers so I'll just let that go unsaid for now.

 

Suffice to say, being a maskmaker need not have anything to do with knowing which shapes go with which powers per se.

Edited July 8, 2013 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

I'm going to do an unspeakable forum evil and quote myself:

What I could find:QUOTE (jimmybob)1A.) Just wondering: I could buy that, say, Onewa wouldn't know what a Great Komau or other mask looked like. But since Vakama was a mask maker, shouldn't he know what all of their masks do when he sees them?1B.) Or is it that they know what powers their masks have, they are only not able to access them until the movie? (Like knowing the 'what,' just not the 'how'.)Thanks a lotQUOTE (Greg F)1) Not really. It's established in the original script of the movie that Vakama has not made very many Great Masks before he is asked to make the Mask of Time.2) It's established in the novels and in the movie that they do not know what their mask powers are. At one point in the film, Matau mistakenly believes his mask lets him fly.

[Omega12]

Matoran lack the mental disapline to use masks. So just because he was a mask maker, he still never used a mask before and wouldn't know how to use it.It's also possible that using the Vahi caused his mental discipline to increase quickly.

[bonesiii]

What I was going to mention early but had no time was this -- with the Vahi, Vakama was specifically assigned by the Makuta to make a Mask of Time, and it was simple deduction to conclude that mixing the six most powerful disks ever made might be the way to do this. Clearly Vakama thought of this, since he did merge them and carved them into the same shape we earlier saw him forming with prototypes (that did not have the right power) when he was still a Matoran.

 

Once he did, he temporarily had a Legendary Disk of Time, and he could do what maskmakers had been doing ever since Kanoka were invented -- fire it at something and see what happened to test the power. We have no confirmation he did this, but he did seem certain he'd made a Mask of Time after all. And doing so would be dangerous, but so would be using the mask for the first time without testing. Even if he didn't, it was still the one power he hoped it would have so naturally the first thing he would try to call on when he put the mask on. He thought it was a Mask of Time and he was right.

 

But with his own mask, he had no easy way to know which power it was.

 

After that, as Omega said, most likely mask usage became much easier in general. Also, IMO Lhikan's death sort of "knocked him to his senses" (but more on that in my story).

[Sir Kohran]

What I could find:QUOTE (jimmybob)1A.) Just wondering: I could buy that, say, Onewa wouldn't know what a Great Komau or other mask looked like. But since Vakama was a mask maker, shouldn't he know what all of their masks do when he sees them?1B.) Or is it that they know what powers their masks have, they are only not able to access them until the movie? (Like knowing the 'what,' just not the 'how'.)Thanks a lotQUOTE (Greg F)1) Not really. It's established in the original script of the movie that Vakama has not made very many Great Masks before he is asked to make the Mask of Time.2) It's established in the novels and in the movie that they do not know what their mask powers are. At one point in the film, Matau mistakenly believes his mask lets him fly.

 

 

A few problems I have with Greg's responses:

 

- I don't see how not having made many Great Masks prevents him from knowing their powers. Most people have never made a car or a television, but still know what they do.

 

- By "the original script" I presume he means a draft containing stuff that didn't make it into the finished story. If this detail was amongst that, how is it valid? Shouldn't the explanation derive from the completed, released ('canon') story?

 

- What was stopping the Toa from learning about their masks? They live around archives, knowledge towers and other places of learning which would surely cover such facts.

[bonesiii]

I don't see how not having made many Great Masks prevents him from knowing their powers.

There were probably hundreds of them. I know what spiders do in general but if you pick twenty species at a true random and show them to me I couldn't tell you their specific behaviors just from the shapes. (Also: that explanation that's spoilers that I keep cruelly alluding to answers this. So like... "wait and see" for my full theory heh.)

 

Most people have never made a car or a television, but still know what they do.

I'm having a hard time thinking of a legitimately apt analogy, but IMO this is definitely not one of them. Cars and TVs come in a vast range of shapes but they all do the same thing. Masks by contrast come in a wide range of shapes and just as wide a range of powers.

 

By "the original script" I presume he means a draft containing stuff that didn't make it into the finished story. If this detail was amongst that, how is it valid? Shouldn't the explanation derive from the completed, released ('canon') story?

Greg is the top authority for canon, so if he speaks of something like that without saying "but I don't go with that", then it almost certainly means he sees it as canon. As in, meant to be implied by the moviemakers but not something they felt needed explicitly stated.

 

The main difficulty IMO is how Makuta decided that Vakama was the guy to go to in order to invent a brand-new power. But there's evidence that by that time he knew Vakama would become a Toa, and knew of the Great Disks, and may have known that the power he was asking for was Legendary (possibly from Tren Krom if it's part of the base code of the universe... I mean the Matoran universe ). AnyWho...

 

What was stopping the Toa from learning about their masks? They live around archives, knowledge towers and other places of learning which would surely cover such facts.

Yeah, if I was Vakama I would have said, "oh and someone stop off at the registry of mask shapes in Ta-Metru" (or the Archives or wherever).

 

I think the story is supposed to imply that some trouble or another was constantly demanding every moment of their time. That is kinda the vibe I get. For example, just between ending Morby (which itself required full focus) and getting to the Coliseum the Krahka adventure got in their way.

 

It's also possible "Dume" realized they might go there and kept a larger group of Vahki stationed there, and the Toa might have realized this and decided against it.

 

 

Another problem, though, is that they had Nuhrii with them a good deal of the time, Vakama's mentor, and it's even harder to imagine he didn't know the shapes. You'd think they would have at least asked. Maybe they did "off-screen" and he actually didn't know, though. Overall it seems that maskmaking was largely about making Matoran masks -- perhaps the few Noble/Great specialists were not considered the top maskmakers.

[Master Inika]

I assumed that there were hundreds or thousands of different mask powers, and so not even Vakama would necessarily need to have all the shapes memorized by heart.

 

I always have wondered what the Disk of Time would have done if it was fired at something. Would the item it hit freeze in time, or age to dust? How would one control it?

 

I also found it weird that the set version of the Disk of Time featured the Mask pictured on it. I always assumed that was non-canon, and it was just a blank orange disk. It'd be like Vakama just cut along the lines.

[bonesiii]

I always have wondered what the Disk of Time would have done if it was fired at something. Would the item it hit freeze in time, or age to dust? How would one control it?

As for which effect it would have, it would depend on what the user wanted; see quote from its BS01 page:

 

It had the power to slow down or speed up time in a given area.

 

They would control it mentally similar to the mask version, but Kanoka power versions are usually more "switch on and a timer offs it" than the mask. I suspect (but can't prove as far as I know) that the Disk of Time was safer to use because the Kanoka gave the user less control, while masks tend to be more flexible. Kind of like balancing atop a wide pedestal versus a narrow pole; more control requires more discipline and is thus more dangerous. But the Disk would also be more "quantized" which would make it effective in less situations.

 

For example (IMO), Vakama could not have used it against a Shadow Hand, because how do you trigger an impact power on an energy thingamabob? Yet, it would not have risked spreading the effect to the user (again, IMO) due to "pilot error" as it did for Vakama. It would probably also only last a small amount of (outside) time and switch off whether the user wanted it to or not -- which is great if you're losing control and it's about to destroy the universe (hence why I think it's safer) but not so great if the Kal are about to put the symbols on the cube (for example ).

 

I also found it weird that the set version of the Disk of Time featured the Mask pictured on it. I always assumed that was non-canon, and it was just a blank orange disk. It'd be like Vakama just cut along the lines.

To the first two sentences, I presume it's canon but meant to imply a relief carving. The Mata Nui Island bamboo disks have pictures of masks on them too, as did the Toa Disks, and I prefer to think of this as wooden reliefs. It wouldn't make sense for him to actually paint a picture on it, but shaping it would be possible (all three evidences together may imply that this was commonly done for disk versions of mixed mask powers for example, so the Disk of Time was made within that tradition perhaps).

 

To the second, I highly doubt he would cut the one Legendary Disk in all of existence. More likely all the mass was used and reshaped (although admittedly the Vahi looks a lot less massive than your typical mask... maybe it was thicker though, and the whole mass to size ratio thing gets wonky with Kanoka anyways since fusing two results in the mass/size of one).

 

I'm picturing him putting a relief version of the prototype shape he'd already chosen, just out of habit, and then testing the disk, and when he saw that it did what he hoped, smoothing the relief and reshaping the whole disk with his firestaff. Or, skip the testing stage but have him still carve the relief because that's just what's done (he might not even think about it).

[Just A Dot]

 

I always have wondered what the Disk of Time would have done if it was fired at something. Would the item it hit freeze in time, or age to dust? How would one control it?

As for which effect it would have, it would depend on what the user wanted; see quote from its BS01 page:

 

It had the power to slow down or speed up time in a given area.

 

They would control it mentally similar to the mask version, but Kanoka power versions are usually more "switch on and a timer offs it" than the mask. I suspect (but can't prove as far as I know) that the Disk of Time was safer to use because the Kanoka gave the user less control, while masks tend to be more flexible. Kind of like balancing atop a wide pedestal versus a narrow pole; more control requires more discipline and is thus more dangerous. But the Disk would also be more "quantized" which would make it effective in less situations.

 

For example (IMO), Vakama could not have used it against a Shadow Hand, because how do you trigger an impact power on an energy thingamabob? Yet, it would not have risked spreading the effect to the user (again, IMO) due to "pilot error" as it did for Vakama. It would probably also only last a small amount of (outside) time and switch off whether the user wanted it to or not -- which is great if you're losing control and it's about to destroy the universe (hence why I think it's safer) but not so great if the Kal are about to put the symbols on the cube (for example ).

 

I also found it weird that the set version of the Disk of Time featured the Mask pictured on it. I always assumed that was non-canon, and it was just a blank orange disk. It'd be like Vakama just cut along the lines.

To the first two sentences, I presume it's canon but meant to imply a relief carving. The Mata Nui Island bamboo disks have pictures of masks on them too, as did the Toa Disks, and I prefer to think of this as wooden reliefs. It wouldn't make sense for him to actually paint a picture on it, but shaping it would be possible (all three evidences together may imply that this was commonly done for disk versions of mixed mask powers for example, so the Disk of Time was made within that tradition perhaps).

 

To the second, I highly doubt he would cut the one Legendary Disk in all of existence. More likely all the mass was used and reshaped (although admittedly the Vahi looks a lot less massive than your typical mask... maybe it was thicker though, and the whole mass to size ratio thing gets wonky with Kanoka anyways since fusing two results in the mass/size of one).

 

I'm picturing him putting a relief version of the prototype shape he'd already chosen, just out of habit, and then testing the disk, and when he saw that it did what he hoped, smoothing the relief and reshaping the whole disk with his firestaff. Or, skip the testing stage but have him still carve the relief because that's just what's done (he might not even think about it).

 

Since we are kinda on the topic of mask making in general, I must ask this question: If you combined any enlarge, regenerate, weaken, freeze, teleport, and reconstitute disks, would they also have the power of time? It would seem that any teleport and weaken disks would make a levitation disk, so what exactly is different about the powers here? Is it just that disks of power levels lower than 9 are too unstable when given the power of time? Could this be why, while trying to create a Vahi near the beginning of LoMN, it kinda blew up in Vakama's face?

[bonesiii]

If you combined any enlarge, regenerate, weaken, freeze, teleport, and reconstitute disks, would they also have the power of time

No, Greg said that to mix that power at all it had to be Level 9.

 

It's possible they would make some sub-power of time (like Voporak's powers), though.

 

What's different is that the true control over Time is a Legendary power, so the rules are special for those three powers.

[Sir Kohran]

I know what spiders do in general but if you pick twenty species at a true random and show them to me I couldn't tell you their specific behaviors just from the shapes.

 

This isn't a good analogy because spiders are no practical use for humans, and for the vast majority of people there's no reason to know the behaviour of each species. Another problem is that different species are found in different parts of the planet, so it'd be very difficult to learn about every last species.

 

Masks on the other hand are useful for Toa and Matoran, so they have good reason to know and recognise their powers (even if Matoran can't use them). Plus many masks are concentrated in Metru Nui, a fairly small area.

 

I'm having a hard time thinking of a legitimately apt analogy, but IMO this is definitely not one of them. Cars and TVs come in a vast range of shapes but they all do the same thing. Masks by contrast come in a wide range of shapes and just as wide a range of powers.

 

I didn't mean the comparison to be looked at closely; I was using it to say that just because you don't know how to make something doesn't mean you don't know what it does.

 

But if you want an analogy for knowing mask shapes/powers - most people have never made a musical instrument, and they come in a wide range of forms and produce a wide range of sounds, yet most people (or certainly at least most musicians) could still say what the majority of them do.

 

As in, meant to be implied by the moviemakers but not something they felt needed explicitly stated.

 

I feel it did need to be. As the movie stands, we have someone who makes masks for a living yet cannot say what they do.

 

I think the story is supposed to imply that some trouble or another was constantly demanding every moment of their time. That is kinda the vibe I get. For example, just between ending Morby (which itself required full focus) and getting to the Coliseum the Krahka adventure got in their way.

 

After they meet Dume, the action certainly is non-stop, but I don't see why they couldn't have found out what their masks do in the time before that. It wouldn't take very long, and would certainly be helpful to them.

 

Part of the problem may be that the movie jumps from the Toa transformation through a quick montage of them finding the Great Disks straight to their arrival at the Coliseum, as though that all took no more than a couple of days. Whereas the books and comics explore the Great Disk search, missing/traitor Matoran issue and struggle with the Morbuzahk much more, and it seems like a lot more time passed.

 

It's also possible "Dume" realized they might go there and kept a larger group of Vahki stationed there, and the Toa might have realized this and decided against it.

 

Dume was only aware of them once they went to the Coliseum ("Matoran one day, Toa the next").

Edited July 9, 2013 by Sir Kohran

[Master Inika]

 

 

It's also possible "Dume" realized they might go there and kept a larger group of Vahki stationed there, and the Toa might have realized this and decided against it.

 

Dume was only aware of them once they went to the Coliseum ("Matoran one day, Toa the next").

 

Nivawk was spying on them and reporting back to Dume from when the first became Toa.

[fishers64]

But if you want an analogy for knowing mask shapes/powers - most people have never made a musical instrument, and they come in a wide range of forms and produce a wide range of sounds, yet most people (or certainly at least most musicians) could still say what the majority of them do.

True, but just because I can make a musical instrument doesn't mean I can play it. Vakama could make masks, but that doesn't mean he could use them.

 

I think the story is supposed to imply that some trouble or another was constantly demanding every moment of their time. That is kinda the vibe I get. For example, just between ending Morby (which itself required full focus) and getting to the Coliseum the Krahka adventure got in their way.

After they meet Dume, the action certainly is non-stop, but I don't see why they couldn't have found out what their masks do in the time before that. It wouldn't take very long, and would certainly be helpful to them. Part of the problem may be that the movie jumps from the Toa transformation through a quick montage of them finding the Great Disks straight to their arrival at the Coliseum, as though that all took no more than a couple of days. Whereas the books and comics explore the Great Disk search, missing/traitor Matoran issue and struggle with the Morbuzahk much more, and it seems like a lot more time passed.

It's also possible "Dume" realized they might go there and kept a larger group of Vahki stationed there, and the Toa might have realized this and decided against it.

Dume was only aware of them once they went to the Coliseum ("Matoran one day, Toa the next").

I got the idea that they weren't paying attention to it much until they needed it. There were a few thoughts about it in places, but mostly they were distracted by the problems at hand. For some reason they thought that figuring out what their masks were (and using them) was really hard. Also, notice that while Whenua and Matau think about masks in those books, Vakama does not. He's focused entirely on the problem at hand, and he may simply consider his own mask power, and that of his fellows, to be irrelevent. Only when his team discovers their mask powers does he give that any thought at all, and only to criticize himself. And that might be part of the answer. He might have known by the mask shapes what the powers were likely to be, but he just wasn't confident in enough in his memory to say - after all, with that team, he would never hear the end of it if he was wrong. But what you've said implies that all Matoran would know what their mask powers were. I find this to be unlikely, since which power is irrelevant to their daily lives as Matoran. It's also possible to focus on the most important parts of a job - if you combine these two disks, you carve it into this shape - without thinking about the fact that mask is a Hau. Given the fact that Vakama had to frequently do a lot of masks and get them exactly right, I think it is very likely that he did that.

[bonesiii]

spiders are no practical use for humans, and for the vast majority of people there's no reason to know the behaviour of each species.

Very true -- but it's close because as a human I can't make use of those traits just like a Matoran can't make use of mask powers so doesn't need to memorize them per se.

 

But if you want an analogy for knowing mask shapes/powers - most people have never made a musical instrument, and they come in a wide range of forms and produce a wide range of sounds, yet most people (or certainly at least most musicians) could still say what the majority of them do.

Probably not a good analogy either. We enjoy hearing the sounds they make for entertainment, so we have clear motivation to have some idea what they do, plus all humans can (technically) use them (if we bother to learn, and not saying that everybody's talented at it lol). But Matoran simply cannot use mask powers at all (okay it's not simple -- it would still be wiser to learn them just in case they would become Toa, but I theorize a (spoilers) reason Vakama doesn't), nor is it particularly enjoyable to them, so there's no obvious motivation to bother with it.

 

Please note that I'm NOT saying this wasn't a problem, but I've seen an opportunity with it in my story because stories kind of thrive on problems -- I've turned it into a character flaw to have story conflict about. So it's not something I would want to see erased from the canon because it has untapped story potential (IMO; readers of my story will judge for themselves if they like how I handled it of course). So rather than a contradiction in canon I see it as a realistic downside to a personality.

 

(Something the others probably share to some extent, but I've focused it on Vakama.)

 

Anyways, I probably shouldn't comment much more, before I give away those spoilers lol.

 

After they meet Dume, the action certainly is non-stop, but I don't see why they couldn't have found out what their masks do in the time before that. It wouldn't take very long, and would certainly be helpful to them.

Morby and Krahka were before Dume; that's what I meant. Also, they were worried something was wrong with Dume and wanted to prove themselves as Toa to him, thinking that once they did, the Vahki would stop being a problem (remember no Toa were supposed to have entered the city due to the gates being shut). They had no reason to delay going to Dume -- they didn't imagine that what was wrong was so extreme; they probably just thought he was stressed out and paranoid.

 

So maybe it was one of the first things they were planning to do after getting Dume to tell the Vahki to leave them alone?

 

Dume was only aware of them once they went to the Coliseum ("Matoran one day, Toa the next").

Er... 'Dume' was Makuta and Makuta influence Lhikan to choose them. And assigned Nidhiki (and presumably Krekka but the books mention Nidhiki most of the time once Toa-ized) to harass them along the way to the Great Disks, plus what the others said. He was well aware of them. He just faked not knowing of them for the benefit of the audience, since to the audience he was Dume.

 

Always remember Makuta lies. (Especially while pretending to be someone else in the first place...)

[Sir Kohran]

 

But if you want an analogy for knowing mask shapes/powers - most people have never made a musical instrument, and they come in a wide range of forms and produce a wide range of sounds, yet most people (or certainly at least most musicians) could still say what the majority of them do.

True, but just because I can make a musical instrument doesn't mean I can play it. Vakama could make masks, but that doesn't mean he could use them.

 

I didn't say anything about being able to play/use them, just about knowing what they do.

 

But what you've said implies that all Matoran would know what their mask powers were. I find this to be unlikely, since which power is irrelevant to their daily lives as Matoran.

 

Matoran simply cannot use mask powers at all (okay it's not simple -- it would still be wiser to learn them just in case they would become Toa, but I theorize a (spoilers) reason Vakama doesn't), nor is it particularly enjoyable to them, so there's no obvious motivation to bother with it.

 

You're both correct in saying that most Matoran have no reason to know the powers of things they can't use. But I'm thinking primarily of mask-makers like Vakama here. As it's their job to produce masks, I think knowing which masks provide which powers is relevant to their line of work, regardless of whether they can use the masks themselves.

 

 

But if you want an analogy for knowing mask shapes/powers - most people have never made a musical instrument, and they come in a wide range of forms and produce a wide range of sounds, yet most people (or certainly at least most musicians) could still say what the majority of them do.

Probably not a good analogy either. We enjoy hearing the sounds they make for entertainment, so we have clear motivation to have some idea what they do,

 

Well, I could say that Matoran see Toa using masks for stunts and feats that are arguably entertaining to watch, so there could be some motivation to know how they work as well, even if the Matoran can't pull it off themselves.

 

Also, they were worried something was wrong with Dume ... they didn't imagine that what was wrong was so extreme; they probably just thought he was stressed out and paranoid.

 

What's your evidence for this? In their first discussion, Vakama says "finding (the Disks) would prove to Turaga Dume that we are worthy Toa", then Nokama says they will present them to Dume because "he will know what to do." Plus the start of comic 19 states: "The Toa Metru traveled to the Coliseum, expecting to be hailed as heroes for finding the Great Disks and defeating the Morbuzahk." At no point before the Coliseum trip do they express any doubts about him.

 

Dume was only aware of them once they went to the Coliseum ("Matoran one day, Toa the next").

Er... 'Dume' was Makuta and Makuta influence Lhikan to choose them. And assigned Nidhiki (and presumably Krekka but the books mention Nidhiki most of the time once Toa-ized) to harass them along the way to the Great Disks, plus what the others said. He was well aware of them. He just faked not knowing of them for the benefit of the audience, since to the audience he was Dume.

 

Okay then. (I don't have access to the books.)

 

But to address the original point, even if 'Dumakuta' managed to keep the Toa away from any learning sites, couldn't the Toa ask Matoran friendly to them to go in and find out the masks powers then relay the information back to them?

[bonesiii]

I didn't say anything about being able to play/use them, just about knowing what they do.

But wouldn't you agree that the fact that Matoran can't use them is probably a factor in why they don't memorize them all?

As it's their job to produce masks, I think knowing which masks provide which powers is relevant to their line of work, regardless of whether they can use the masks themselves.

I thought this was answered earlier -- Vakama had only just started making Great Masks (and I presume Nobles), so his specialty was in Matoran masks (Nuhrii's appears to be as well incidentally). Which requires knowing the shapes, but not powers.

 

There's various cautions to this but I think it's been covered well enough in other posts and the seemingly five thousand other topics like this we seem to get every month or so lol. Also I agree with fishers that he may know the right disk mixtures but not associate that with the powers.

 

It's also possible someone else does the actual mixing. The scene were Vakama expresses amazement at the sight of fusing two of the Great Disks may be evidence that he'd never actually done it himself.

 

Well, I could say that Matoran see Toa using masks for stunts and feats that are arguably entertaining to watch, so there could be some motivation to know how they work as well, even if the Matoran can't pull it off themselves.

I don't get that kind of vibe from their culture. It wasn't like they plopped down on a couch after work to watch CSI: Metru Nui. Unless you were personally a witness to an incident where a Toa was involved you would be unlikely to know much of what happened, and they were very work-focused. Likely nobody would have the time to package presentations that would make this information easily available in entertaining formats. They were all too busy doing various jobs that kept the city's physical machinery operational.

 

Also they hadn't had Toa for a while apparently and it may be that few or none of the Mangai had mask powers that were shared by the Metru.

 

What's your evidence for this? In their first discussion, Vakama says "finding (the Disks) would prove to Turaga Dume that we are worthy Toa", then Nokama says they will present them to Dume because "he will know what to do." Plus the start of comic 19 states: "The Toa Metru traveled to the Coliseum, expecting to be hailed as heroes for finding the Great Disks and defeating the Morbuzahk." At no point before the Coliseum trip do they express any doubts about him.

Pretty sure Vakama thought something along those lines in one of the books. I don't have time now to re-read them line by line again (and it might have been one I had to get from the library and just returned), but I seem to recall that. In any event, one thing they oddly never doubted was that Dume would consider it possible they were not true Toa, since they sought to use the Great Disks as proof. You would think a wise elder who had been a Toa himself would know one when he saw one.

 

Plus, again, the Vahki clearly had not been ordered to welcome any Toa on sight (the city would logically be in dire need of them since the Mangai disappeared other than Lhikan) -- the Vahki were giving the Metru trouble from day one and this never seems to strike them as unexpected. So it's clear they realized something was wrong with him. Likely they just attributed it to paranoia after hundreds of years of repeated attempts by the Dark Hunters to take over the city which had recently resulted in the announcement they would have all heard about closing the sea gates. Dume controls the Vahki, so their behavior speaks clearly to Dume's state of mind.

 

Although I don't know if I would phrase it as "doubting" him. If you notice my main point was actually that they did NOT doubt him. They just seemed to think that events had affected him deeply and it made proving themselves to him difficult (but had he been the real Dume, the entrance to the Coliseum scene would have been all the proof he would need, obviously). Actually my point was that only if they had doubted him would they feel any need to delay going before him in order to learn their mask powers first. Think about it -- since they "knew" that he would obviously accept the proof, why would any of them say, "hey guys, maybe we'd better prepare for this meeting by learning our mask powers first"?

 

No -- because they didn't doubt him (and because they assumed, thus, that the trouble was over with now that the Morbuzakh was defeated), they assumed they would have plenty of time to learn their powers after meeting Dume.

 

Make sense?

 

But to address the original point, even if 'Dumakuta' managed to keep the Toa away from any learning sites, couldn't the Toa ask Matoran friendly to them to go in and find out the masks powers then relay the information back to them?

Yes, but they wouldn't have thought of this prior to the Coliseum, since it would obviously make more sense just to "kill two birds with one stone" -- since they'd had to rush to get the Great Disks in order to rush to defeat "the" threat to the city, they now had easy proof for Dume anyways of their worthiness. So why not just go to him and have him tell the Vahki to leave them alone?

 

And afterward they were being chased constantly (and three arrested).

 

One other issue is that Lhikan could have told them... I seem to recall he said something about how it was better for them to figure them out themselves, though. (And he did help some of them figure it out while in the prison.)

 

Edit: Also, I doubt there would have been any Matoran who would defy the Vahki for a bunch of humanoid strangers. There's a scene in Adventures #1 where a Matoran is guarding a locked entrance to where Nuhrii works, and Vakama tells this guard that Nuhrii's life may be on the line, but the Matoran refuses to let him in, citing as reason that the Vahki had forbidden it. The Vahki were the law (literally; it's what the name means ); you didn't disobey them. The Matoran apologized for it but insisted he must obey; he feared what the result would be if he disobeyed (I believe he feared he would lose his job... don't quote me on that part though).

 

This is even while knowing that Nuhrii's life is in danger. This Matoran would probably personally know Nuhrii, since they work at the same place and he would let Nuhrii in every day, and obviously he knew who he was at the least.

 

If it's like that throughout the city, there wouldn't have been anyone to do that. Maybe the Great Disk Matoran, but they were trying not to let any of those out of their sight precisely because they knew one of them must be the traitor.

 

And let's not miss the elephant in the room here -- the Vahki weren't stopping the "green spiderlike guy" that was attacking them, who they probably assumed was a Dark Hunter. So that would, I'd think, raise major alarm bells even if it more subconscious than conscious.

 

Bottom line is, I see good reasons both ways not to learn the powers before proving themselves. Whatever suspicions they had (as long as they didn't suspect Dume was a fake) would make them want to avoid the learning centers, and whatever naivete they had would make them assume they didn't need to go there before the Coliseum. Wherever they actually fell on that spectrum, the result is the same, logically. Only if they could have imagined Dume was really the Makuta would they try to 'cheat' to learn the powers.

Edited July 9, 2013 by bonesiii

[Master Inika]

I'm not sure if normal disk fusing is the same as what the Great Disks did. I recall Greg once saying that was why Vakama was surprised the Great Disks fused.

 

Also, a mask maker would have to know both the shape of a mask and the combination of powers to produce the power (I speculate that some power combinations would have to include several different disks, and/or have to be fused in a certain order). Even if Vakama had, say, fifty masks memorized by heart, there's still a low chance any of the Metru had them. Assuming there are hundreds of different masks, of course.

[Just A Dot]

Plus, again, the Vahki clearly had not been ordered to welcome any Toa on sight (the city would logically be in dire need of them since the Mangai disappeared other than Lhikan) -- the Vahki were giving the Metru trouble from day one and this never seems to strike them as unexpected. So it's clear they realized something was wrong with him. Likely they just attributed it to paranoia after hundreds of years of repeated attempts by the Dark Hunters to take over the city which had recently resulted in the announcement they would have all heard about closing the sea gates. Dume controls the Vahki, so their behavior speaks clearly to Dume's state of mind.

If I recall correctly, one of the Matoran actually reported the Toa to the Vahki because she didn't know if they were really Toa or not.

[ToaKapura1234]

Yeah, but he should have at least known his own mask. I mean if I owned a hat and made hats, I'd try to figure out what kind of hat I owned.

[Katuko]

Yeah, but he should have at least known his own mask. I mean if I owned a hat and made hats, I'd try to figure out what kind of hat I owned.

I'd think that Matoran would be fuzzy on how Toa-ization works. While I personally find it likely that powerless masks are made from the right power combination matching their shape "just in case", most Matoran would likely not be aware what their mask was made from. Maybe they figure it's all scrap Kanoka, since the mask is never going to do anything.But yes, I feel Vakama should have mused about the Kanohi shapes and what they mean. If he was chosen to create a Vahi, and he experimented with disk types to make that work, then he should certainly also know at least some potential power mixtures. Even if he was new in the job as Great Mask maker, something basic like "Regeneration power disk becomes regeneration power mask" should be known to him. Considering we got a chart of power mixtures back in 2004, I'd think the Ta-Matoran would have such a chart pinned on the wall near their mask-making stations too.The question then is just how many Kanohi Huna Vakama had seen or made before, considering his Toa mask did not look much like his Matoran mask and he could thus be excused from not knowing exactly what it would do. If he's only ever made Noble Huna shapes from weak Kanoka, then it's natural for him to not have memorized the Great shape even if it's the standard shape for a Great Huna. For all we know he - or maybe Nuhrii, since he was the mentor of the two - could list up combinations for dozens of masks without breaking a sweat... just not the Huna. :PIt's made from Enlarge + Shrink + Freeze disks, after all, and a triple combination might be considered a waste of protodermis if it's just gonna be a powerless mask anyways. There would only be made a few copies to stash in the Great Temple, but since there are far fewer Toa around at any point than there would be masks available, there would be little reason to make more than, say, 3 to 5 Huna for storage at a time.Up until the Morbuzahk was beaten the Toa were getting by on elemental powers, so they can also be excused for not focusing on mask powers when they had more pressing issues to resolve. Edited July 10, 2013 by Katuko

[Master Inika]

I always felt like the mask making process should be horribly complex. Like, fusing Disk A with Disk B, then adding Disk C would have a completely different power from fusing A and C, and then adding B. If you assume that there could also be four- and five-disk combinations (really, there could be ten-disk combinations), then it's not difficult to assume that Vakama only have a few simple ones memorized. The Kanohi order forms (I assume there are order forms) probably include the right disks to fuse, so mask makers won't need to memorize any, really. This would be easier to piece together if we had confirmation of just how many unique masks there are (I assume hundreds).

[bonesiii]

Just in case it's not clear, Greg confirmed there are infinite possible powers resulting from different mixtures. (Although the more you add the less economical producing it is, obviously.) So it's theoretically possible for there to be thousands, hundreds of thousands, etc. of known mixtures. Note though that it seems obvious there can't be nearly that many that are actually used, especially not for masks. But yes, to think that there might be so many that an experienced maskmaker still wouldn't know them all is very plausible.

 

The only issue with that line of reasoning is that the Noble versions of those six shapes are portrayed as very common among Metru Nui Matoran. So yes, it is odd. Yet, we've never seen a Metruan portrayed with the Great versions; not until the Voyatoran did we see that.

 

Perhaps the Noble shapes honor past Turaga (like the Turaga -- unknown if plural or singular -- who led during the civil war) associated with Metru Nui, so the wearers think of "that famous dude" rather than "that power", and later "that other Matoran who wore the same mask as that famous elder" etc. Perhaps no Toa in Metru Nui ever wore the Great versions of those six, so nobody or virtually nobody wore the shapes as Matoran masks. It's even possible no maskmaker there had ever made any of those Greats in the city.

[DuplexBeGreat]

Nice italic s there.And if the Huna is relatively expensive compared to other masks, then why was it so common in the first place? Or did Vhisola amd everybody else just have powerless something-elses in the shape of Noble Hunas?

[Just A Dot]

Nice italic s there.And if the Huna is relatively expensive compared to other masks, then why was it so common in the first place? Or did Vhisola amd everybody else just have powerless something-elses in the shape of Noble Hunas?

I'm pretty sure Vhisola had a Komau...

 

Are Matoran Masks different shapes from the Great and Noble Masks (like seen in the beginning of LoMN)? I was always under the impression that this was artistic license, and that all Matoran Masks were shaped like Great or Noble ones.

[Katuko]

Are Matoran Masks different shapes from the Great and Noble Masks (like seen in the beginning of LoMN)? I was always under the impression that this was artistic license, and that all Matoran Masks were shaped like Great or Noble ones.

Vakama's mask looks mid-way between a Noble and Great version, but if we go by the looks of the others we may assume that they are actually wearing the Great versions in a modified Matoran/movie style. In that case, we have slightly more of a problem with explaining why Vakama doesn't know his own mask shape. I dunno, if I made such objects and I was going to be wearing one on my face for my entire life, I would try to figure out trivia like that.

[fishers64]

I don't know about that. Us humans wear clothes all our lives, and some of us make them, but I don't think the clothes-makers actively think about what they're wearing and how it affects them. I think all this assumption that Vakama would know his own mask power comes from a bit of that. Us powerless humans naturally assume that if there was a chance, even an edge of a chance that we would get more power from something, we would naturally want to know all the details about it, control it as much as possible, etc. (And we would.)But that might not be true for Matoran. They might not share our tendancy to want power, and to know all the details about it. They might just want to lead simple, quiet lives and not even think about the possibility of going out and fighting things. Vakama especially fits this - he just wanted to do his job. Probably hoped that the threats to his city would go away on their own, without him taking any sort of active role. Even after becoming a Toa, I think he might have just wanted to beat the threat and go back to what he knew - behold the guy who made the Mask of Time. (I think a lot of his story was about accepting this change from just "wanting to end it all so I can go back to making masks somewhere" to the Time Trap Vakama who, given the opportunity to be passive in his illusion, actively knows that something is wrong and looks for the answers.)

Edited July 11, 2013 by fishers64

[Katuko]

I don't know about that. Us humans wear clothes all our lives, and some of us make them, but I don't think the clothes-makers actively think about what they're wearing and how it affects them.

We change clothes all the time, however. We do not keep the exact same shirt all our lives, and even we did the thing would not be feeding us the energy we need to stay awake. I'd also think that those who make clothes by hand like mask-makers do with Kanohi would know at least a bit more about the art than any random person off the street.

But that might not be true for Matoran. They might not share our tendancy to want power, and to know all the details about it. They might just want to lead simple, quiet lives and not even think about the possibility of going out and fighting things. Vakama especially fits this - he just wanted to do his job. Probably hoped that the threats to his city would go away on their own, without him taking any sort of active role.

The Matoran also take effort to record the past and look to the future. They value their duty as workers, and potential destinies that may come to pass. A powerless Kanohi might not be most important thing, but if you got little else to do than make masks all day, why not take at least a glance at your own?

[fishers64]

 

I don't know about that. Us humans wear clothes all our lives, and some of us make them, but I don't think the clothes-makers actively think about what they're wearing and how it affects them.

We change clothes all the time, however. We do not keep the exact same shirt all our lives, and even we did the thing would not be feeding us the energy we need to stay awake. I'd also think that those who make clothes by hand like mask-makers do with Kanohi would know at least a bit more about the art than any random person off the street.

Yes, they who make clothes by hand would know more about it than others. Vakama, being a mask maker, would know more about making masks than others. And obviously, there are differences between human clothes and Kanohi masks, although Toa (and even Matoran, possibly) may change masks. My point was that a mask might be something essential for life (like our clothes) that they don't think about much.

 

But that might not be true for Matoran. They might not share our tendancy to want power, and to know all the details about it. They might just want to lead simple, quiet lives and not even think about the possibility of going out and fighting things. Vakama especially fits this - he just wanted to do his job. Probably hoped that the threats to his city would go away on their own, without him taking any sort of active role.

The Matoran also take effort to record the past and look to the future. They value their duty as workers, and potential destinies that may come to pass. A powerless Kanohi might not be most important thing, but if you got little else to do than make masks all day, why not take at least a glance at your own?

I don't think Vakama was bored making masks. I think he enjoyed it. (I wouldn't, but if he wants to make masks...)And further, I'm pretty sure that what power your mask has isn't relevant to your life as a Matoran. I figured he figured if he became a Toa he would have time to employ the learning methods bones suggested. After all, if you get unlucky enough (in Vakama's mind) to become a Toa, why not learn then?

[bonesiii]

All of these "if I was Vakama" arguments fail because Vakama doesn't have your personality. (So none of them are really an apt analogy). Also, you're thinking, whether just subconsciously or also consciously, of the fact that not knowing it turned out to be inconvenient later as a Toa. But that's hindsight. Vakama would not have the benefit of that foressight (ironically lol -- or at least not a CLEAR vision along those lines apparently), so if you really were entirely him, you might not be thinking like this at all.

 

Bottom line is, for whatever reasons, Vakama did not worry about knowing them and neither did the other five.

 

 

Re: Matoran-level shapes -- there's no canon reason why the stylized Matoran masks in LoMN should be only artistic license. Even with Great masks it is canon that Lhikan's Hau (ironically only in the set version though) was different from Tahu's (Jaller's) Hau; Greg confirmed maskmakers do mold them with different styles. And Nuhrii was mentioned to have a distinctive style specifically. So those stylized masks are almost certainly canon.

 

Also, whether Vakama's is meant to be in the shape of Noble or Great doesn't logically depend on the other five's shapes. It looks Noble so that's probably what shape it's supposed to be (but with a shortened beard more befitting of a Matoran). Otherwise we would have to assume that all movie scenes of Matoran Vakama are non-canon, with no imagery to replace it with, and for no reason.

[DuplexBeGreat]

Dangit, I meant Tehutti in my earlier post. I think I got them confused because of Vhisola's darker blue color scheme.Anyways, considering Vakama's actual personality, it makes sense that he wouldn't try to figure out what his mask did because he never wanted to be a Toa, a hero, or anything other than a quiet and humble craftsmatoran. Even as a Toa he constantly showed self-doubt, so its likely that he never considered the idea that he could possibly be one before.

[All Or None]

A few things I'd like to say.

 

1: In an earlier topic on this same subject, I mentioned that there could be 100 different masks semi-common on Metru Nui, and it's just artistic license/the fact that those were the only ones that existed in set form that we only saw those twelve masks. (The Toa Mata's great masks and the Toa Metru's noble masks.)

 

2: I know what my own first and middle names mean off the top of my head, along with a few others. But I couldn't tell you what even close friends' and family members' names mean without actually looking it up. In the same way, Vakama may well know what his own mask power was, just not how to use it, but had no idea to the powers of the other Toa Metru. (FWI, I can't remember any solid indication that Vakama definitely did not know his own mask power.)

[bonesiii]

Vakama may well know what his own mask power was, just not how to use it, but had no idea to the powers of the other Toa Metru. (FWI, I can't remember any solid indication that Vakama definitely did not know his own mask power.)

This was cleared up earlier in the topic; see fishers' Greg quotes. He did not know.

[All Or None]

 

Vakama may well know what his own mask power was, just not how to use it, but had no idea to the powers of the other Toa Metru. (FWI, I can't remember any solid indication that Vakama definitely did not know his own mask power.)

This was cleared up earlier in the topic; see fishers' Greg quotes. He did not know.

 

Granted, but the question specifically said "all of their masks". My suggestion has him know his own mask power, in the same way I know what my own name means, but not knowing the powers of the other Toa Metru.

[bonesiii]

 

 

Vakama may well know what his own mask power was, just not how to use it, but had no idea to the powers of the other Toa Metru. (FWI, I can't remember any solid indication that Vakama definitely did not know his own mask power.)

This was cleared up earlier in the topic; see fishers' Greg quotes. He did not know.

 

Granted, but the question specifically said "all of their masks". My suggestion has him know his own mask power, in the same way I know what my own name means, but not knowing the powers of the other Toa Metru.

Read both his answers together, though:

 

1) Not really. It's established in the original script of the movie that Vakama has not made very many Great Masks before he is asked to make the Mask of Time.2) It's established in the novels and in the movie that they do not know what their mask powers are. At one point in the film, Matau mistakenly believes his mask lets him fly.

He doesn't say "other than Vakama" and in fact explains why Vakama wouldn't know many Great powers. It's worth noting that the fact that he wore a Noble shape might be a factor there. "They" in the second answer clearly refers to all the Toa Metru, including Vakama.

 

He was actually, pretty sure, the very last to realize his power.

[fishers64]

Bottom line is, for whatever reasons, Vakama did not worry about knowing them and neither did the other five.

Even more frustrating was the fact that his Great Mask of Power might prove a help here, but he didn't even know what that power might be yet.

This would be a great time to use his Kanohi Mask of Power, if only he knew what it did.

That's in refrence to Whenua.

"I need a Mask of Speed" he muttered to himself. [...][Onewa] pushed the thought of masks out of his mind. He had no idea what Mask of Power he was wearing, what it might do, or even how to make it work. He hoped that eventually that would change, but for now there was no point in worrying about it.

[darkslizer]

I think that mask shape is the biggest factor here. Even a mask maker would have to make the mask to truly know what it does, assuming he/she had a proper education on that topic.For example, the Nuva masks. They were the same for a while, including their adventures with the Rahkshi and the Piraka, but they eventually changed shape because of the adaptive armor. If I didn't know Gali personally, I wouldn't recognize her at all in her adaptive armor, let alone realize that she had a Mask of Water Breathing. Not only that, but I always thought her mask looked like a mask an assassin would have.

Edited July 21, 2013 by darkslizer

[NorikSigma]

Vakama would have no way of knowing what their masks were. Additionally, he was a Matoran, and never knew how to activate Masks, being a Matoran and all. He builds, not uses, them.

[Art Vandelay]

It was a matter of mental discipline. Matoran do not have the mental discipline to activate masks, but I'm quite sure most of them know masks by their shape and power. Vakama of course would have to be very knowledgeable about this subject, being a mask maker. I think its possible that the suddenness and surprise of becoming Toa made it harder mentally to learn how to use their mask powers than most Toa. They were kind of created on short notice, after all.