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Rumor: Bionicle's return in 2015


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@Alyska: Hmm. This is an intriguing piece of theory! I mean, I'm pretty sure I read that there's more variation in the brains of humans in the same or similar gender(s) than there is between genders, but yeah. The GBs are unconsciously sexist, Agori society has a lot of humanity's failings, and things make sense again. For a certain definition of sense that includes sexism existing at all, but whatevs.

 

Now, for a kid's toyline, I don't think we need to get into anything heavy like that (the poor souls can learn the hard truth about the world a liiiittle bit later, if they don't already know; we're here for magic robots kicking bad guy butt and talkin' 'bout teamwork), and the best way to avoid heavy society things is to make 'em a non-issue in a fictional society. My suggestion? Multiple ladies to a team-up and not treating them differently from the guys! Especially the multiple ladies to a team-up thing. I will get on my hands and knees and beg if I need to. Boys can learn early on that girls don't have cooties, and I think the best way to do that is to normalize girls existing in stories, and then casually revealing the oh-so-shocking (not) truth that girls don't actually think all that differently from boys after all.

 

On the brain structure thing- the biggest differences are in the amount of grey and white matter, and in things like the relative size of the frontal lobe (problem solving, decision making-larger in women) and the parietal cortex (spacial reasoning- larger in men), so there are some observable differences- but, that said, how these structural differences translate to actual abilities and personality traits varies immensely. As you said, the differences in traits and abilities between this woman and that woman will be greater than the differences between all women and all men.

 

Agreeing SO MUCH on the sexism-worldbuilding thing. There is certainly a place for stories about a "woman in a man's world," but these all treat said woman like she's something remarkable and rare just for doing what she wants to/what she feels is right. In a historical context, sure, it's realistic, but when it's inserted into a fantasy environment for a lazy bit of backstory or motivation, it can come across as rather condescending or cheesy. Strong women need to be normalised, not treated as special exceptions to be pointed out and put on a pedestal (although vulnerable women can appear as well- like I've said before, a character's flaws are just as important as their strengths) . And the normalisation of these kinds of characters is something that's important for both boys and girls to see.  Having more than one female character also allows for showcasing different kinds of strength- you can have female adventurers, spies, soldiers, barbarians, rogues, inventors, hermits, scientists, rebels, minions, detectives, pacifists, lunatics, sages, etc. all with their own unique talents as well as their own unique shortcomings. Their gender does not need to be the most important or memorable thing about them.

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On the brain structure thing- the biggest differences are in the amount of grey and white matter, and in things like the relative size of the frontal lobe (problem solving, decision making-larger in women) and the parietal cortex (spacial reasoning- larger in men), so there are some observable differences- but, that said, how these structural differences translate to actual abilities and personality traits varies immensely. As you said, the differences in traits and abilities between this woman and that woman will be greater than the differences between all women and all men.

Akay! Interesting information, that.

 

Agreeing SO MUCH on the sexism-worldbuilding thing. There is certainly a place for stories about a "woman in a man's world," but these all treat said woman like she's something remarkable and rare just for doing what she wants to/what she feels is right. In a historical context, sure, it's realistic, but when it's inserted into a fantasy environment for a lazy bit of backstory or motivation, it can come across as rather condescending or cheesy. Strong women need to be normalised, not treated as special exceptions to be pointed out and put on a pedestal (although vulnerable women can appear as well- like I've said before, a character's flaws are just as important as their strengths) . And the normalisation of these kinds of characters is something that's important for both boys and girls to see.  Having more than one female character also allows for showcasing different kinds of strength- you can have female adventurers, spies, soldiers, barbarians, rogues, inventors, hermits, scientists, rebels, minions, detectives, pacifists, lunatics, sages, etc. all with their own unique talents as well as their own unique shortcomings. Their gender does not need to be the most important or memorable thing about them.

Yesssssssssssss. Write strong women, write weak women, write women who need validation, women who don't, women who are book-smart or street-smart or naive or anything -- and for the love of Mata Nui, have a few distinctly different women around, because we're varied. We're complicated and weird and so is every other gender, and boys and girls and kids of all genders deserve to see that variety shown to them from a young age. Because even if we're writing about magic robots on an island paradise with 6 drastically different biomes in an area the size of Newfoundland, what's important is their hearts and souls, and those hearts and souls should reflect the variety of hearts and souls out in the world of the readers.

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I have to say I'm very proud of how many thoughtful posts there have been in the last two pages. Especially the stuff about the story existing to appeal to human readers, because so many people can be utterly oblivious to that, which is why you so often see stupid questions asking how/why artificially-engineered characters like Matoran or Hero Factory heroes have personalities, genders, or emotions in the first place.

 

Now, a lot of people might turn this on its head and suggest that BIONICLE exists more specifically to appeal to young boys, hence the gender ratios. I'm not going to contest the nature of BIONICLE's target audience, personally. I'm not of the opinion that gendered marketing is inherently sexist, though it can be irritating that so much media skews male and so little skews female. But in any case, I still think blaming the target audience for BIONICLE's treatment of gender is making an awful lot of assumptions about young boys.

 

Even if we take for granted that young boys do not want to buy action figures of female characters (and I think that this could very well be on the brink of changing, given how boys are already defying those kinds of stereotypes with regard to media consumption), why would they want to be told what gender a certain element can or can't have? LEGO is a creative toy, and as such there's no sense in throwing up arbitrary rules about which characters you build can or can't exist in the official BIONICLE storyline. If a boy wants to build a male water Toa or a female fire Toa, why should there be rules against that?

 

Furthermore, why would the gender ratios of the characters you have on store shelves have to correspond directly to the official in-universe gender ratios? Most superhero action figures are male, but chances are their universes have roughly the same 50/50 gender ratios that ours do. So even if the Toa Mata have particular genders, there's no reason to write a rule that all Toa and Matoran would have the same gender as the Toa Mata who shares their element. My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic is a franchise with extremely imbalanced gender ratios in the toys and even among the main characters, but there's no rule establishing that stallions are rare — in fact, you can spot plenty of them in a typical crowd scene in the TV show. They're just not generally the focus of the story.

 

Overall, I do not expect BIONICLE's gender ratios in the sets to change dramatically. And while I'd love more female characters as sets and main characters, I'm not necessarily clamoring for them, any more than I'm clamoring for more colts and stallions in My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic. Still, I do think the official story's treatment of gender could be improved from a creative standpoint.

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I wholeheartedly agree with all saying that women need more variety in Bionicle. Even though I'm a guy, I firmly believe that women were , for lack of a better word, "underrepresented" in the story.

 

So anyways, if the Bionicle return were to use lots of CCBS parts, as I'm sure it will, the one thing I'm worried about is aesthetics, how good the sets will look from any angle. Most HF sets I have look very "hollow" from the back. Sure, pieces exist to fix that but they overall contribute to having lots of bulk. The Bionicle pieces weren't very bulky (for the most part), and they were able to accomplish a good aesthetic from all angles.

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What even makes a female bionicle female? MU inhabitants have no reproducing organs. 

 

the pronouns used to refer to them; ownership or absence of specific organs does not define who is what gender.

 

So, their gender is defined by which pronoun is used to refer to them, and which pronoun is used to refer to them is, presumably, determined by which gender they are.

 

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- :burnmad:

 

 

gender is what the character expresses themself as (in extension human beings, though i am keeping this Bionicle related) -- what pronouns they prefer to use, how they prefer others to see them. (Bionicle characters don't have reproductive organs either way so i seriously fail to see what point you're trying to make, if one at all)

 

What, in the BIONICLE universe, is the difference between being identified as male or female, if they have no reproductive organs?

 

- :burnmad:

 

So if every one started calling tahu a girl he could would be female? Also people are saying that it is the personality that makes them male or female. Dalu is a total tom boy but she was still a girl. I know that was one example but i am sure there are more like it. I think that instead of male and female in bionicle it was more like the elements being the genders. Each element had a steryo type personality. SInce there were no reproductive organs personality would be the only way to tell if you are male or female. 

Of cource the reason the girl/boy raio in bionicle was 5-1 was probably just beacause it was more focused on boys then girls. No big sexist plot by the creators of lego. :P

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As long as there is one bionicle fan out there there is still hope for bionicle to return. Keep faith. Bionicle is amazing.

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So if every one started calling tahu a girl he could would be female? Also people are saying that it is the personality that makes them male or female. Dalu is a total tom boy but she was still a girl. I know that was one example but i am sure there are more like it. I think that instead of male and female in bionicle it was more like the elements being the genders. Each element had a steryo type personality. SInce there were no reproductive organs personality would be the only way to tell if you are male or female. 

Of cource the reason the girl/boy raio in bionicle was 5-1 was probably just beacause it was more focused on boys then girls. No big sexist plot by the creators of lego. :P

 

Not quite.  When people said that the pronouns used to refer to the characters is what gave them their gender, they mean the pronouns that the books and authors use.  For example, the narration always calls Tahu "he," so we know that Tahu is a boy.  If some random Matoran were to decide to call Tahu a woman, or "she," that wouldn't make Tahu any less of a boy.  We assume that the narration knows Tahu's true gender identity and selects the correct pronouns to fit it; we think this because the narration is generally omniscient, or told from a perfectly-informed outside perspective.

 

Similarly, Dalu was always referred to using "she" types of pronouns.  A sentence involving Dalu might read, "Dalu looked at her arms and saw she had been badly hurt."  This shows that Dalu, as tomboyish and pugnacious as she may be, was still comfortable being a girl.  After all, in real life, a boy can be feminine without considering himself a girl, or a girl can be masculine without considering herself a boy.  Personality is much more complex than just "boys like to fight, girls like to cook"--and I think you'll agree that no one is really that one-sided.  If we were, that sure would be boring!

 

Now, I'm also somewhat sympathetic to the idea of each element essentially being a "gender" in Matoran society (i.e., a set of personality traits, societal expectations, etc.), but that still doesn't answer the question of what makes certain Matoran identify as "girls" and others as "boys."  After all, if each element were distinct, we would need a dozen pronouns:  one for Ta-Matoran, another for Ga-Matoran, another for Ce-Matoran, and so on.  Instead, we only have the pronouns "he" and "she."  Why are both Ga- and Ce-Matoran referred to using the "she" pronoun?  So there's clearly more at work than just a split along elemental lines.

 

Bionicle also had legitimate sexual dimorphism, particularly among the Skakdi, whose females were bigger/badder/meaner than the males.  This gets into biological difference in addition to personality, so clearly there's something more to this equation than just the elemental stereotypes.

 

I could go on, but I'm pretty sure I'd just end up repeating Alyska and Kitania et al.  Oh, and as  for how this relates to the rumored return of Bionicle, um, I'd personally like my own pet theories to come true (so, there, now this post is on-topic).

 

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I think the best wait to get rid of the gender issue would be to avoid them litteraly. Bionicle with no gender would be the best to me. However, the problem

with this solution is that the Bionicle story is meant to be read by humans, who seem to need genders to properly connect with the characters.

 

However, I think that changing the gender of already existing characters is a bad idea. Tahu or Tamaru needs to stay male as it's now an established 

fact. However, I would agree of making new teams of characters half male half female. But that would not feel like a perfect solution to me. 

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Yesssssssssssss. Write strong women, write weak women, write women who need validation, women who don't, women who are book-smart or street-smart or naive or anything -- and for the love of Mata Nui, have a few distinctly different women around, because we're varied. We're complicated and weird and so is every other gender, and boys and girls and kids of all genders deserve to see that variety shown to them from a young age. Because even if we're writing about magic robots on an island paradise with 6 drastically different biomes in an area the size of Newfoundland, what's important is their hearts and souls, and those hearts and souls should reflect the variety of hearts and souls out in the world of the readers.

 

Thank you so much for that post. I completely agree with you. We don't need stronger women specifically, we don't need weaker female characters, most of us just want the female gender to have a more prominent appearance in Bionicle. It would drastically improve the story by having a larger variety of characters, and it would be nice to see female characters not only limited to one element (water) for almost half of the storyline. 

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(Disclaimer up front: even as I write this I realize this conversation is getting further and further away from "what do we want to see in Bionicle if it returns."  If you'd like to discuss this more after this post, we should probably take it to PM.)

I'll do my best to be brief, and try to get off the Orde-specific stuff, because I see a more general problem that's going on here that is related to Bionicle's return in 2015 that needs to be addressed.

 

What I mean to say is that we need to take this particular case in context, and consider from a real-world perspective why it was written that way, and what effects it might have.

Fair point.

 

Also, re: the bolded sentence - I'm not really sure what you're getting at here? If you're suggesting I didn't provide enough solid examples - that might be fair, I was writing mostly from memory there, and as I've already admitted above (and will do again below) I may be misremembering the serial and overgeneralizing. But if you think so, please say so directly - maybe I'm just reading this wrong, but at the moment it sort of comes off that you're putting yourself up on a pedestal here.

What I'm looking for are examples that "females are gentle" is a stereotype. At the moment, I have no evidence for this. It's not a stereotype. When someone can cite a source or give examples to show that is the case, then fine. Until then, these arguments hold no water.

 

I'm quoting myself because I've already said it once, and I think my past voice is calmer. 

 

sexism

 

sex·ism

  [sek-siz-uhthinsp.pngthinsp.pngm]  Show IPA

 

noun

1.

attitudes or behavior based on traditional stereotypes of sexual roles.

 

2.

discrimination or devaluation based on a person's sex, as in restricted job opportunities; especially,such discrimination directed against women.

Oddly, neither of which really applies here. Women as having a "gentler touch" could be viewed as stereotypical,  but speaking as a person who is taking a class on the subject right now, women being gentler than men is not a stereotype. In fact, there are a number of actual female stereotypes, such as the dragon lady, which make women out to be vicious. Women are weak, women are vicious and emotionally unstable in stereotypeland, in many ways the opposite of gentle. Look it up. 

 

Further, saying that a woman is gentle is not an insult or a devaluation. In fact, the word is usually a compliment. 

 

Sexist is having attitudes consistent with the above, i.e. viewing women through a stereotypical lense, in this case. Unless you know what the actual stereotypes are, I don't think throwing around the term is useful.  

 

With that in mind, yes, the former is what I meant. It was poorly worded - I'm trying to allude to my own capacity to misunderstand, and I was in a hurry.

 

From an in-universe perspective? Sure, that's an important difference. From an out-of-universe one? I strongly disagree.  The female Toa/etc. were the female characters of the franchise, and as I mentioned below, they were what girls (and some boys as well) would likely identify with.  The GBs can call them nanotech - to the reader, they're characters, and ideally ones fleshed-out enough we see them as relatable people.  So how they're presented and defined reflects back on real-world gender ideas of male and female.

If the reader of the story allows it to reflect on their perceptions, yes.

 

And on that topic, I'll reiterate what was buried in the wall of text above: I'd love to see characters like Helryx, who fall outside the basic "hero/villain of the year" role, to get sets and appear in the main media of the franchise.  It breaks up some of the monotony of the overall story beats, and allows Lego to represent more character types (and genders.)

I agree with you on this. If anything, we can have fewer of these debates. 

 

All right, to the main point: Is there anything any of you all would consider to be a "non-stereotypical" portrayal of women and girls? It would help me to have an example to understand where you all are coming from. 

 

I think that there should be more girls in a Bionicle return, if anything because there are even gender ratios of girls on Spherus Magna, and I want to see the Glatorian, Toa, Agori, and even Matoran working together in a story. If anything is common in Bionicle, it's Toa/Matoran/Agori/Glatorian segregation in terms of adventures, and I want that to end. 

 

But sometimes I feel like (not certain, this is not a truth/fact) that you all are holding girls in Bionicle to impossible standards. How is Bionicle going to come back...frankly, how are more female characters going to happen...if the fanbase bashes more on them and claims they are made of stereotypes? Why would they write more female characters if doing so is just going to get them more branded as sexists? It seems like in you all's minds that the writers will never write a non-stereotypical female character, that you are so eager to slap a stereotype on girl characters that you will make one up even when one doesn't exist. 

 

Why in the world would Lego cater to you?

 

In that case, if they bring Bionicle back in 2015, I hope they bring it back with more female characters anyway. But not because of a discussion on some backwater fan site, but because they want to write original characters that just so happen to be female. That's what you want anyway. But if you can't see it when it comes, there will be no hope. 

 

The other thing that comes off of this, is that if Bionicle comes back I want Greg to be able to finish that serial. I definately think that a Bionicle return should include that, regardless of whatever the newer story happens to be. Especially if it's an SM future reboot, as I think that would tie in nicely with that. 

 

Enough rambling from me. 

Edited by fishers64
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What is this whole sexism thing? There are female Bionicle sets. What do you expect? Females are different from males. It's a fact of life! Still, in Bionicle, the Toa hold no resentment against their sisters. What because they are all calm and from the water tribe that makes it sexist? Tell me. What gender would any of you assign the calming, blue, water Tohunga? Bionicle teaches that no matter how you are made, female or male, stupid or smart, you should still respect them. And there are still people talking about sexism!

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What because they are all calm and from the water tribe that makes it sexist? Tell me. What gender would any of you assign the calming, blue, water Tohunga?

 

So basically what you're saying is that male characters can have a huge variety of personalities, but female characters can only have one?

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I think the best wait to get rid of the gender issue would be to avoid them litteraly. Bionicle with no gender would be the best to me. However, the problem

with this solution is that the Bionicle story is meant to be read by humans, who seem to need genders to properly connect with the characters.

 

However, I think that changing the gender of already existing characters is a bad idea. Tahu or Tamaru needs to stay male as it's now an established 

fact. However, I would agree of making new teams of characters half male half female. But that would not feel like a perfect solution to me. 

 

Agender characters don't go over well with the general public, at least not as protagonists. The best way to get rid of the gender issue is to treat the genders as equal in the first place.

 

I can understand the desire to leave existing characters be, as many people dislike drastic change.

 

Females are different from males. It's a fact of life!

 

No.

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What is this whole sexism thing? There are female Bionicle sets. What do you expect? Females are different from males. It's a fact of life! Still, in Bionicle, the Toa hold no resentment against their sisters. What because they are all calm and from the water tribe that makes it sexist? Tell me. What gender would any of you assign the calming, blue, water Tohunga? Bionicle teaches that no matter how you are made, female or male, stupid or smart, you should still respect them. And there are still people talking about sexism!

I told myself I wouldn't get involved, prayed desperately that I'd have the strength... but man I just gotta get involved now.

 

I would assign the gender of the calming and blue water Matoran probably based on a die role. I'd also create more than one little segregated group of female-gendered peeps. Saying some women are calm and peaceful is not sexist; showing all are, except for a few notable exceptions, is. If it was my writing there'd probably be three female tribes and three male tribes or, if it really was my writing, I wouldn't have gender segregation set up at all. It isn't, sadly, but thankfully I am a fan and in conjunction with other fans I have a respectable voice.

 

And you know, many of the hilariously archaic men-women customs we think of from the Victorian era were for the "respect" of women. It was thought women couldn't handle themselves so men had to respect that. Respect is a funny word because I can respect people in a variety of ways. I can respect my opponent, such as yourself, but it can be a different sort of respect from my friends. I respect that you have an opinion, and really little more, seeing as the opinion is flawed and you're so deeply entrenched in it I'm not entirely sure you can see the way out now.

Edited by Engineer Alexandra Humva
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Females are different from males. It's a fact of life!

 

This is actually true.  "Female" and "male" are both terms for different sexes, though--not different genders.  In animals that display sexual dimorphism, females and males can have rather substantially different physical characteristics.  For example, male peacocks have colorful feathers used to attract mates; male black widows are much smaller than their female counterparts; only female mosquitos bite; and so on.  There's also the matter of their primary sexual characteristics--their reproductive organs.

 

But difference between male and female is certainly not a "fact of life" for a bacterium, nor for flowering plants, nor anything on Earth that reproduces asexually.  Given that Matoran appear to be more or less created by Turaga, one wonders whether it would actually be a "fact of life" for Matoran that "females are different from males."

 

- BioGio

 

EDIT:  Oh, also, pretty much what Humva said.  (Hi, Humva!  Nice job on the ninja-ing, and it's good to see you're still around.)

Edited by BioGio
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What is this whole sexism thing? There are female Bionicle sets. What do you expect? Females are different from males. It's a fact of life! Still, in Bionicle, the Toa hold no resentment against their sisters. What because they are all calm and from the water tribe that makes it sexist? Tell me. What gender would any of you assign the calming, blue, water Tohunga? Bionicle teaches that no matter how you are made, female or male, stupid or smart, you should still respect them. And there are still people talking about sexism!

 

PrismWind, it’s obvious you know nothing about gender, women, or sexism so I'd advise you just give up before you dig yourself a hole so deep you can’t climb out of it.

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To try to get back on topic, I'd like to see sets in darker colours, like the colour change between 03 and 04. It's not that I don't like the current shades, I just think that slightly "Greeble-ified" versions of the current CCBS armour pieces would hearken back to Bionicle and would identify it as a different theme to HF. The advantage with this would be that we could still get varied colour schemes, as Lego have shown that they are willing to make CCBS bones in colours other than black and grey. (Take Fire Lord, Witch Doctor, and Black Phantom as examples.)

I also think that some new torso armour is long overdue, as next to none of the current CCBS armour pieces look good without a Hero Core. As for heads, Brain Attack heads are the most likely option I think, seeing as they are the newest CCBS non-Chima heads, and also have the mouth socket which characterised every Kanohi apart from the Glatorian Legends Ignika. With a combination of these points, if you used some of the older masks, then in theory, a year or so into Bionicle 2.0, you could feasibly make decent reproductions of a lot of canister Toa over the years. 

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I hope this is a reboot of the franchise. It's hard to really continue from where the ending left off and it's quite frankly gotten too complicated. Bringing it back to the roots with the Toa Mata will help kids get into the theme easier. It's weird to go from the "six heroes awaken on an island" to "Giant robots and a cthulu-expy" over the course of the story.

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If we get the Toa Mata, theoretically, I wouldn't want them in darker colors; I'd want them in as close to the original shades as possible. Yes, it's just for nostalgia, but after the Mistika, I'm not prepared to gamble with my favorite characters again.

Agreed. The Toa Mata are bright colors, dang it! There are lots of shades Toa can come in, but unless they're Toa of Light one Toa should really have one color scheme and stick to it.

Edited by Lielac

I write stories, on occasion. Finishing them... yeah, uh. That's another thing entirely.

 

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I hope this is a reboot of the franchise. It's hard to really continue from where the ending left off and it's quite frankly gotten too complicated. Bringing it back to the roots with the Toa Mata will help kids get into the theme easier. It's weird to go from the "six heroes awaken on an island" to "Giant robots and a cthulu-expy" over the course of the story.

 

The Cthulu-expy was completely Greg AFAIK, but the giant robot was there from the beginning; it was the central story engine of the line, and was in fact what pulled it from the depths of the Boneheads of VooDoo Island.

 

idk I'd prefer a story set on future Spherus Magna in a way that doesn't require catching up on nine years of story to understand, but I guess if they pull it off right a reboot could work.

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While I definitely hope Bionicle's gender ratio will be improved when Bionicle returns, is the amount of discussion spent on the issue of what's-his-name the Toa of Psionics really all that important to discussion of Bionicle's return? Honestly I'd much rather discuss things related to the core story (which includes whether the gender ratio of the sets is improved as well as whether or not the locking of specific genders to specific elements should be eliminated) and not some regrettable passage in one of the tangential serials. I don't expect the serial content to make much of a difference to Bionicle's return whether or not it's a reboot or continuation, and all this discussion of this particular issue just reaffirms my belief that a lot of that non-essential media should be retconned entirely.

 

I do think that, if Bionicle DOES come back as a continuation and maintains all of that problematic side-content, then it will be both appropriate and essential that fans voice their concerns. But that's only one of several possibilities and I doubt it's even the most likely one.

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I hope this is a reboot of the franchise. It's hard to really continue from where the ending left off and it's quite frankly gotten too complicated. Bringing it back to the roots with the Toa Mata will help kids get into the theme easier. It's weird to go from the "six heroes awaken on an island" to "Giant robots and a cthulu-expy" over the course of the story.

 

The Cthulu-expy was completely Greg AFAIK, but the giant robot was there from the beginning; it was the central story engine of the line, and was in fact what pulled it from the depths of the Boneheads of VooDoo Island.

 

idk I'd prefer a story set on future Spherus Magna in a way that doesn't require catching up on nine years of story to understand, but I guess if they pull it off right a reboot could work.

 

Yeah there are actually plenty of natural ways a well-written and planned-out story could go from "six heroes awaken on an island" to "giant robots and a Cthulu expy" even in a relatively short amount of time, so I don't think that really QUITE sums up what was wrong with the trainwreck bonkles became

 

But actually that does bring me to a potential issue I have with the reboot idea - the giant robot twist doesn't really work anymore. Like, it MIGHT still manage to surprise the new fans if they pull it off much earlier this time rather than taking eight entire years, but ultimately the spoilers will still be all over the internet, so the moment there's any sort of foreshadowing, the fans who are seriously into the story are going to know exactly what's up. For some sort of adaptation of the existing story or something this wouldn't be a huge issue, but for a reboot attempting to keep people interested and sell toys for years to come, dancing around the central mystery of the story when the answers are already out there wouldn't exactly work in its favor

 

So that means any sort of reboot starting back on the island of Mata Nui with six Toa and stuff would have to start taking things in a wildly different direction pretty early on and reveal completely new truths behind the BIG MYSTERIES. Which... might not be what some people want I guess, but as long as it's actually planned out thoroughly beforehand and not written Gregstyle, I think it could actually be really interesting

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If the Bionicle story is rebooted, with a whole new story, location, characters, etc., I'd be fine with it. I only discovered that Bionicle had a storyline in the middle of 2003 if I remember correctly, so I missed out on the early years of Bionicle and the mysteries that came with them. Of course, I know about them now, but its not the same to me as actually following the story as it comes out, excitingly waiting for new information to be revealed. So if it is rebooted next year, I would be very interested in following the new storyline this time and speculate on the new mysteries that will come with it. (And I also would look forward to talking about it with fellow members in the Bionicle S&T Forum. :P)

 

But on the off chance that it does continues from the original story, whether it picks up where it left off or time jumps ahead a number of years, I only ask for one thing:

 

1. Keep Teridax dead. He was a great villain who had a great run. But I don't want him being to Bionicle what Ridley has become in Metroid IMO: an unbeatable boss who keeps coming back no matter how many times one defeats him.

 

But I really doubt that the story would continue on from the original. I think that it would be more successful with a reboot, but that is just my opinion.

 

Edit: Grammar mistakes.

Edited by Toa Smoke Monster

Everyone is one choice away from being the bad guy in another person's story.


 


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I think the best wait to get rid of the gender issue would be to avoid them litteraly. Bionicle with no gender would be the best to me. However, the problem

with this solution is that the Bionicle story is meant to be read by humans, who seem to need genders to properly connect with the characters.

 

However, I think that changing the gender of already existing characters is a bad idea. Tahu or Tamaru needs to stay male as it's now an established 

fact. However, I would agree of making new teams of characters half male half female. But that would not feel like a perfect solution to me.

I get the feeling that a genderless version of the story would be enjoyed by few people. "Seem to need genders"? We do need genders, as well as several other human characteristics, in order to identify with characters in science fiction or fantasy works. Otherwise, it would be challenging to keep readers interested in the actions of the characters and thus in the story itself. I know that I've never read or heard of a story featuring a protagonist or set of protagonists who were genderless, save a few stories in which the protagonists were robots. Stories that put genderless characters in the spotlight simply don't get written.

 

Interestingly enough, Tamaru is already transgender to several people, including myself. Take a look at this Tumblr post by deadmanswrench, known as ToM Dracone here, and this MOC by Makaru.

Edited by Artakha's Nephew
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To try to get back on topic, I'd like to see sets in darker colours, like the colour change between 03 and 04.

 

I for one hope we get a mix of both colors. Some sets with the lighter shades, some with the darker ones. Using only the dark shades would get old really fast I think, Bionicle has done it for far too long in it's first run. I think Hero Factory did a pretty good job in mixing up the color schemes a little bit (at least for the villains), while Bionicle often used the same color combinations over and over again.

 

And as Octodad and Lielac said before, keep the Toa Mata in their original colors.

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I think the best wait to get rid of the gender issue would be to avoid them litteraly. Bionicle with no gender would be the best to me. However, the problem

with this solution is that the Bionicle story is meant to be read by humans, who seem to need genders to properly connect with the characters.

 

However, I think that changing the gender of already existing characters is a bad idea. Tahu or Tamaru needs to stay male as it's now an established 

fact. However, I would agree of making new teams of characters half male half female. But that would not feel like a perfect solution to me. 

 

I agree with you on the first opinion. Also, let's not forget that we're talking about LEGO here. Even tho they gave us pre-established characters and plot, they expect us 

to modify and add things to the BIONICLE world, so It's totally OK to think that an existing male character is actually female, and vice versa.  :)

Edited by HoloTheWise
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I just hope we have more purple.

OH wait guys. I had an idea.

 

Way better than Bionicle coming back.

 

SLIZERS coming back. Yessssssssssss no gender discussion with them PLUS we automatically get more purple wut wut

 

hash tag sarcasm

 

 

 

And Skakdi women are apparently more vicious and destructive.

I can't believe this didn't get quoted before me.

 

Also, it looks like things have calmed down a lot, but I'd just like to say that there's a difference between noticing differences between genders and discriminating because of them.

 

Also, sure, Greg could have made the gender ratios better once he had more control over the story, but I'd like to point out that the whole Ga- thing was decided before he was in control of stuff. I get that that is probably the most obvious example to bring up, but I just thought I'd like to point that out.

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Oh god no.

 

Please confine the males/females Bionicle character debate to Eurobricks. They have a massive flaming post battle in the 2015 Rumor thread right now, though on the topic of characters, not character traits of genders. I digress - All it will do is drag the discussion into an uncomfortable ditch.

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Oh god no.

 

Please confine the males/females Bionicle character debate to Eurobricks. They have a massive flaming post battle in the 2015 Rumor thread right now, though on the topic of characters, not character traits of genders. I digress - All it will do is drag the discussion into an uncomfortable ditch.

I don't get why people think discussion of gender should be taboo. Seems irrational. Sure, sometimes tensions flare in these kinds of discussions. News flash: tensions flare pretty much WHENEVER there is a profound disagreement between members. That doesn't mean BZPower should prohibit discussion of anything people MIGHT disagree about, especially if it's something like BIONICLE's gender ratios where people genuinely have a lot to say.
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One of my best friends is a member of this site.

I think I'm missing something here...

 

Gosh, I had thought of something else I had been meaning to say, but just forgot it as soon as I started this post.

 

Oh, it might have just been the fact (or truth or whatever the popular word is these days :P) that I think everyone who wants their opinion known has expressed it, we've had a bunch of discussion, and... well... It's not like... you're going to change someone's pre-existing opinion on here, really.

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Yeah I'm not sexist. One of my best friends is a member of this site. If you can get so worked up over the genders of people in a toy line then seek professional help. Sexism along with racism can be applied to EVERYTHING. If you think that im sexist, then you really need to get out more. Back on topic now...

 

you're the worst.

 

-Tyler

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SAY IT ONE MORE TIME 

TELL ME WHAT IS ON YOUR MIND

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So if every one started calling tahu a girl he could would be female? Also people are saying that it is the personality that makes them male or female. Dalu is a total tom boy but she was still a girl. I know that was one example but i am sure there are more like it. I think that instead of male and female in bionicle it was more like the elements being the genders. Each element had a steryo type personality. SInce there were no reproductive organs personality would be the only way to tell if you are male or female. 

Of cource the reason the girl/boy raio in bionicle was 5-1 was probably just beacause it was more focused on boys then girls. No big sexist plot by the creators of lego. :P

 

Not quite.  When people said that the pronouns used to refer to the characters is what gave them their gender, they mean the pronouns that the books and authors use.  For example, the narration always calls Tahu "he," so we know that Tahu is a boy.  If some random Matoran were to decide to call Tahu a woman, or "she," that wouldn't make Tahu any less of a boy.  We assume that the narration knows Tahu's true gender identity and selects the correct pronouns to fit it; we think this because the narration is generally omniscient, or told from a perfectly-informed outside perspective.

 

Similarly, Dalu was always referred to using "she" types of pronouns.  A sentence involving Dalu might read, "Dalu looked at her arms and saw she had been badly hurt."  This shows that Dalu, as tomboyish and pugnacious as she may be, was still comfortable being a girl.  After all, in real life, a boy can be feminine without considering himself a girl, or a girl can be masculine without considering herself a boy.  Personality is much more complex than just "boys like to fight, girls like to cook"--and I think you'll agree that no one is really that one-sided.  If we were, that sure would be boring!

 

Now, I'm also somewhat sympathetic to the idea of each element essentially being a "gender" in Matoran society (i.e., a set of personality traits, societal expectations, etc.), but that still doesn't answer the question of what makes certain Matoran identify as "girls" and others as "boys."  After all, if each element were distinct, we would need a dozen pronouns:  one for Ta-Matoran, another for Ga-Matoran, another for Ce-Matoran, and so on.  Instead, we only have the pronouns "he" and "she."  Why are both Ga- and Ce-Matoran referred to using the "she" pronoun?  So there's clearly more at work than just a split along elemental lines.

 

Bionicle also had legitimate sexual dimorphism, particularly among the Skakdi, whose females were bigger/badder/meaner than the males.  This gets into biological difference in addition to personality, so clearly there's something more to this equation than just the elemental stereotypes.

 

I could go on, but I'm pretty sure I'd just end up repeating Alyska and Kitania et al.  Oh, and as  for how this relates to the rumored return of Bionicle, um, I'd personally like my own pet theories to come true (so, there, now this post is on-topic).

 

- BioGio

 

i think that Ta or Ga would be the pronouns.

Or onu or po etc.

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As long as there is one bionicle fan out there there is still hope for bionicle to return. Keep faith. Bionicle is amazing.

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Yeah I'm not sexist. One of my best friends is a member of this site. If you can get so worked up over the genders of people in a toy line then seek professional help. Sexism along with racism can be applied to EVERYTHING. If you think that im sexist, then you really need to get out more. Back on topic now...

 

PrismWind, your post ignores several staff warnings, is unnecessary, accusatory, and offensive. I am docking you one Proto point for your behavior in this topic. You need to calm down and take a break from this discussion.

 

you're the worst.

 

-Tyler

 

 

Your post also ignores many staff warnings and is unnecessarily accusatory. I am docking one Proto point from you as well, given the sheer number of previous warnings that have been posted in this topic.

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Why these discussions always end up like this ?  :(

 

Anyways... While I'll not discuss if Bionicle is sexist or not, I do believe we are in the need of more female characters, and I hope this new line presents us with more.

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Here we go again. Please remember this issue has been settled before in another topic, which was closed because of the arguments caused. I think it would be best if we stayed on topic.

 

I've seen some interesting ideas of enemies in the topic. Some people want Makuta back, but I think that would bring up issues that Makuta can never die no matter the scenario. Even if he had a really, really good excuse, I don't want him back. I liked Jam Pot's idea a while back of a cult following Makuta. It would be interesting to see someone carrying on in Makuta's name. There are plenty of other big enemies on Bara Magna as well, but they've been dealt with well and I'd like to see something new. I mean, now we have our classic Toa defenders and a mask with power over life itself. There's got to be groups out there who want it.

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