Fighting Underwater?

[Banana Gunz]

Am I the only one that thinks it was really weird that the Toa Mahrii had to go underwater? I mean, going underwater wasn't the weird part, but imagine them fighting the Barraki, they would have to be going pretty darn slow.

 

True, the Barraki are probably more built to move around underwater as they are mutated. But the toa would still be moving pretty slow, even though their armor was changed. Or are toa big/strong enough that they can move through water like we move through air? I doubt it, but I'm open to hear what you guys and gals have to say.

[Element Lord of Milk]

They were transformed by the Mask of Life, I assume it would have included water adaptations as part of the deal.

[Archon~]

What he said ^

And honestly, moving in/under water is not that hard. I played water polo for 5 years, and once someone simply becomes stronger and more endurant, it's a piece of cake, and I doubt that top athlete swimmers/waterpolo players come close to Toa. Makes sense?

[Banana Gunz]

They were transformed by the Mask of Life, I assume it would have included water adaptations as part of the deal.

 

True, but I remember reading in the serial where the mahri discovered the golden skin reptile thing that the mask only gave them the ability to breathe underwater, and that they only became "true amphibians" later. And looking at the sets the most notable features of underwater preparedness is the tubes for breathing, but there aren't a whole lot of things like fins and such to suggest they were granted easier mobility underwater.

 

EDIT:

@Archon: Yeah but the toa are largely made of metal, if you were wearing heavy metal plates and machinery while playing water polo I think you would find it a little harder (and by a little harder, I get the feeling that it would be a lot harder  ) to move through the water.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Archon~]

Ive had to tread chairs accross water, while having a weight belt attached to me so I'm not too sympathetic towards them.

 

Jk

 

However, you can make that argument on land too, metal plates would have made it harder to move, yes? Well how do they get around that? Protodermis muscles! They are probably better adapted to carrying the armor that they're already used to living in. The armor they wore was basically exoskeleton to them, you could probably compare it to humans having a carbon-fiber-like armor.

 

If I didn't explain myself well enough, you could just take into consideration that the Ignika turned them specifically into Toa that were capable of fighting and moving around normally in the water. It wouldn't make sense for it to make them waterbreathers without other adaptations then be like, "eyy good luck guys, imma go sink into the abyss".

 

Also, I don't think any of the Barraki were that greatly adapted at moving underwater, other than maybe Pridak. You can even see in the Barraki and Mahri videos from 2007 that they both factoons move kind of slowish, but not significantly.

 

I think that's my input regarding this

[fishers64]

Plus Hahli Mahri could use the water to push her along. 

 

In some respects, moving around in the heat of battle would be more like swimming, though, and swimmers can move really, really fast. Especially if they don't have to breathe. Although Cordak blasters and other weapons would hardly be suitable for swimmers and divers, so the water polo thought is probably more to it in that respect. 

 

Although all underwater combatants would have the same speed restrictions, so I don't think it would matter until the end of the story. Matoro = Micheal Phelps.

Edited August 21, 2014 by fishers64

[Banana Gunz]

Swimming would be more for getting around, but actual fighting would be really slow. You can swing underwater as fast as Michael Phelps but you'd still probably have at least some trouble swinging a large, heavy metal sword completely underwater. 

 

The points made about the Mahri and the protodermic muscles sound logical, but there is no confirmation about the Ignika changing them to move easier in the water in 2007, even if it would've been a smart choice.

 

And a lot of you are disregarding how gravity works when you're completely submerged under water. On land, we have a firm stance on the ground when fighting, but in the water you would not have a good stance and your fighting ability would suffer heavily. So even if you can move around perfectly fine, fighting would be different, and switching between swimming and fighting would also be somewhat hard, because it requires very quick reflexes.

 

And Hahli mahri is a special case, could you really say the same for any of the others?

 

I still feel like the Barraki are better suited to moving underwater due to their mutations; they're made to resemble sea creatures and adopted many natural features reflecting them, so they probably are more suited for moving underwater. Plus, they've been living and moving in the water for a lot longer than any of the mahri have and are more used to it.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[TERIDAX941]

You think they have problems fighting? what about Hydraxon and his throwing knives and boomerangs... both of which work perfectly well underwater, so just swinging swords and claws and sharp objects shouldn't be a problem for those guys... besides, most of the time they fought with their elemental powers (well the Barraki didn't but that's beside the point haha)

[fishers64]

Just for the sake of pointing out, the Mahri got ahead down in Mahri Nui through trickery (getting the Barraki to fight each other, pretending to ally with them), powers (mask powers generally, ice, water, and fire) , help from one Makuta Teridax (who had a Maxilos that was used to moving underwater, plus too many powers) and a whole lot of swimming. Fast. Nowhere except for Hydraxon (and he was a weapons master, after all), is melee fighting prowess mentioned.

Edited August 21, 2014 by fishers64

[Banana Gunz]

You think they have problems fighting? what about Hydraxon and his throwing knives and boomerangs... both of which work perfectly well underwater, so just swinging swords and claws and sharp objects shouldn't be a problem for those guys... besides, most of the time they fought with their elemental powers (well the Barraki didn't but that's beside the point haha)

 

Fighting underwater in general is the problem here, and I feel like Hydraxon would have just as much trouble as the mahri (though probably less considering he's more experienced in fighting and being underwater). And I've already pointed out several other points as to why anyone fighting underwater would very likely have a lot of trouble. And it takes more than fancy elemental powers to be a hero, they had to use skill and pure fighting power as well or else they would've been overwhelmed for sure. Some of the toa's elements would've been hard to muster underwater anyway, such as Matoro, Jaller and (somewhat) Kongu. Not everyone was as lucky as Hahli. 

 

EDIT:

@fishers64: Well they would have to use their melee weapons for something. And using kanohi and elemental powers takes concentration and control. Kongu for example, only used his Kanohi like 2 or 3 times in 2007. Plus Makuta was frozen underwater for a good amount of time thanks to matoro. Sure trickery was used a lot as well but they sure did a lot of raw fighting, like the last stand to buy matoro time. Swimming is good for running but not necessarily fighting.

Edited August 21, 2014 by Banana Gunz

[Toropekurupa]

I imagine Toa Mahri fighting as the last battle scene in Pacific Rim. Bunch of floating and stuff flying everywhere.

[graywolf89]

I don't think it'd be THAT hard for the Toa to move around underwater. I mean, Greg has stated that the average Toa can lift more than 1 ton. By comparison, the average untrained human can lift about 150-160 lbs.

[Chro]

Matoro = Micheal Phelps.

Someone tell Kraggh

[Axilus Prime]

The Toa and Barraki were both mutated to be adapted to the water. Now, when we look at real underwater creatures, they have no trouble whatsoever moving just as fast as, if not faster than, the way we move on dry land. Many fish can move their tails several times faster than we can move our legs, and whoosh forward through the water at amazing speeds.

 

So if these guys have similar adaptations, there's no reason why swinging a sword would be any more difficult for them.

[IXRollOutIX]

Might be slightly off topic, but what bothered me the most about the Toa going underwater was that it left me thinking: "Well then what the heck is the point of the Kaukau?" 

This problem continued into 2008 when suddenly all the Toa were given the ability to fly, making the Miru pointless as well. Both of these were major drawbacks to me because the series drifted further and further away from MASKS being the focus with every passing year. That's what I'm going to be looking forward to with a possible reboot on the horizon: Mask powers becoming more relevant again.

 

ANYWHO. Back to talking about fighting underwater... 

[TERIDAX941]

 

You think they have problems fighting? what about Hydraxon and his throwing knives and boomerangs... both of which work perfectly well underwater, so just swinging swords and claws and sharp objects shouldn't be a problem for those guys... besides, most of the time they fought with their elemental powers (well the Barraki didn't but that's beside the point haha)

 

Fighting underwater in general is the problem here, and I feel like Hydraxon would have just as much trouble as the mahri (though probably less considering he's more experienced in fighting and being underwater). And I've already pointed out several other points as to why anyone fighting underwater would very likely have a lot of trouble. And it takes more than fancy elemental powers to be a hero, they had to use skill and pure fighting power as well or else they would've been overwhelmed for sure. Some of the toa's elements would've been hard to muster underwater anyway, such as Matoro, Jaller and (somewhat) Kongu. Not everyone was as lucky as Hahli. 

Actually Hydraxon wouldn't have much experience being underwater than the Mahri, because he was killed when the pit was submerged, and then was "revived" just a bit before the Toa showed up, and only then was he a water breather, but I'm sure he got some underwater training... who knows what the Order taught their members?

 

Edit: @Rollout the point of those masks are for situations when Toa need them and don't have the Ignika to suddenly zap them into being water breathers or Artahka to give them special armor. Most Toa don't get those special effects so they use those masks when they're needed, (which is why a Suva is handy because it gives you many backup masks just in case you do need to fly or go underwater)

Edited August 22, 2014 by Iron_Man5

[bonesiii]

they would have to be going pretty darn slow.

If that's what the result of being in that environment is, then yes -- but so what? It would apply "universally" (except for the exceptions, namely Hahli controling water, Pridak swimming like a shark, etc.), and even if it didn't, that's how causality works. Lewa flying in air is likewise faster than everybody else (Kakama not considered here) walking/running on ground. Does that mean nobody should ever walk?

 

(Lewa might say yes lol.)

 

You take the causal consequences of what environment you're in and adjust accordingly, yeah?

 

Since as you said, it isn't that weird that they had to go down there (because the Ignika needed to lead them to Karda Nui and that was the way), then slowness due to thicker medium you're going through is part of the territory (literally).

 

True, the Barraki are probably more built to move around underwater as they are mutated. But the toa would still be moving pretty slow, even though their armor was changed. Or are toa big/strong enough that they can move through water like we move through air? I doubt it, but I'm open to hear what you guys and gals have to say.

Not exactly like, no. Keep in mind that with downsides come upsides. The density of water also enables swimming (kinda like everybody can fly now, but without the need for jetpack fuel like in Karda Nui or the like). Air has a downside everybody just accepts because we're used to it, in that we can't start kicking around and waving our hands and as a result end up hovering above our house or over obstacles.

 

That being thrown into an alien environment of underwater was part of the draw of 2007; it asks what would that be like? And then explores it.

 

Yeah but the toa are largely made of metal, if you were wearing heavy metal plates and machinery while playing water polo I think you would find it a little harder (and by a little harder, I get the feeling that it would be a lot harder  ) to move through the water.

According to several Bionicle sources, weight does make swimming a serious difficulty for some. Some metals may be lighter than others, though I doubt that plays a role here (I assume they all had the same basic kind of metal, except for a few tool exceptions like Hahli's protosteel claw-tool). Others may have thicker metal than others, such as in pistons, perhaps to support a bit more body mass for their strength (like Po and Onu). Evidently many other types still find it possible, though.

 

Of course, we're a society to talk, lol -- we have metal things hurtling through even the air on a daily basis. And underwater, though there's often some air involved for bouyancy in the latter case.

 

However, you can make that argument on land too, metal plates would have made it harder to move, yes? Well how do they get around that? Protodermis muscles!

Note that the Glatorian wore metal armor too, and had some technological implants, but had no protodermis. Stronger muscles in general, regardless of what they're made of, would be the answer. (And recently Greg said Spherus Magna does have stronger gravity than Earth, so even though the Glatorian/Agori had less metal than MU beings, they would still probably need way more strength than humans have, assuming Greg sticks with that answer. However, Toa should still need more than Glatorian due to more metal, I'd think, depending on the specific mass of the same volume of the different metals. But the Toa/Matoran/etc. also have mechanical aid to their muscles to balance that out.)

 

You can [swim] underwater as fast as Michael Phelps but you'd still probably have at least some trouble swinging a large, heavy metal sword completely underwater.

Some yeah, but actually a sword's advantage may actually seem higher underwater in contrast to other things, as it is shaped better for cutting through the water than just about anything else.

 

Actually probably the biggest stretch of plausibility is the Cordak projectiles. Water and fast-moving projectiles don't mix very well. Maybe the projectiles have a torpedo-like engine in the back of each one, I dunno. If not, the squids would probably be way more effective as far as reliable travel to a target (but less dangerous when they get there).

 

And a lot of you are disregarding how gravity works when you're completely submerged under water. On land, we have a firm stance on the ground when fighting, but in the water you would not have a good stance and your fighting ability would suffer heavily.

Yes it would, but again, where is this argument intended to lead? They just had to deal with it, yanno?

 

(One way to do that is to swim. You could approximate many of the necessities of a battle stance that way; swords clanking together that would push you apart in space is countered on land with gravity and friction on the land, but in water by swimming forward to counter the pushback. Or perhaps better yet, let yourself be pushed back a bit to rethink your approach a little for the swim forward and attack, giving you a bit of a rest. Depending.)

 

I still feel like the Barraki are better suited to moving underwater due to their mutations; they're made to resemble sea creatures and adopted many natural features reflecting them, so they probably are more suited for moving underwater. Plus, they've been living and moving in the water for a lot longer than any of the mahri have and are more used to it.

Agreed, but none would be as good at it as Hahli who could actually make the water move on her command. Given that, it's actually important for story purposes that the villains be on average better than the Toa; stronger antagonists makes for more suspense. It wasn't really emphasized blatantly a lot, though.

 

Fighting underwater in general is the problem here

But problem in what sense? I don't feel this is clear from your posts so far. Good guys face problems in stories. Are you simply wanting to talk about the problems they face? Or plausibility issues? What specifically is the problem that you are referring to? (I have assumed it is about plausibility in the rest of this reply, correct if wrong. )

 

I feel like Hydraxon would have just as much trouble as the mahri (though probably less considering he's more experienced in fighting and being underwater)

Actually no, not as Hydraxon. The real Hydraxon died in the Great Cataclysm and this one was made by the Ignika out of Dekar. Dekar had such experience, but in a Matoran body. I think this is like new Toa knowing how to walk with longer legs and such as part of the transformation rather than having to learn it; the Ignika must have granted Hydekaraxon the motor skills needed for that, or rather adapted Dekar's.

 

But he would, of course, face the same water friction as everybody.

 

Might be slightly off topic, but what bothered me the most about the Toa going underwater was that it left me thinking: "Well then what the heck is the point of the Kaukau?"

It's loosely on topic.

 

The point of the Kaukau is to grant its wearers the ability to breathe underwater, plain and simple.

 

What you probably mean is the age-old "should only ONE type of thing have an ability in a story?" Answer's made pretty clear by looking at fish. Should fish not have gills, because Gali has a Kaukau? Or for the real-world example, what's the point of scuba gear, when fish exist? If you think about it, it doesn't really work. Although having one type of thing only have a particular trait does make for a simpler story in some ways, in practice we wouldn't want every Mahri to be wearing one -- that would be boring and confusing since masks are their faces! Plus, the Kaukau has limits of length of time it's on. It's good for shallow diving, not for life on the seafloor, although with the air bubbles down there a story adapted to use it exclusively would work (but then apparently both the heroes and the villains would need it -- that would just be weird).

 

This problem continued into 2008 when suddenly all the Toa were given the ability to fly, making the Miru pointless as well.

Same as above. Is a helicopter made pointless by other methods of flight? No. Since everybody needed to fly in that situation, having them all wear Kadin (for flight, or Miru as you suggest for just hovering, though I assume you meant Kadin as Miru for most Toa would not work for propulsion unlike Le-Toa who can make wind) would have the "all same faces" problem above, plus the timeout effect, although I assume the jetpacks probably had fuel limits too, so not so much on that last bit.

 

Both of these were major drawbacks to me because the series drifted further and further away from MASKS being the focus with every passing year.

Actually this enabled the Mahri to have new masks other than everybody having a mask that would just do the same thing and add nothing else to the battle situations (except the usual knock-off risk being upped a notch with the risk of drowning). For the Newva it didn't bring new mask powers, but it did let them have different faces, and still enabled them to have six different mask powers rather than everybody had a Kadin (or Miru).

 

So, wouldn't that actually have made mask powers less relevant in more senses than otherwise? It would have an upside we didn't get, but I think it would be outweighed by the downsides, especially for the Mahri. Upside, if they actually did make everybody have Kaukau on their face, everybody would be talking about it (and believe me, many complaining ), and yes, that would draw special attention to masks. I assume that's what you mean here and agree. But that would wear off pretty quick; then the masks just become a given that everybody has, and a story can only do so much with everything be the same there, yanno?

 

It also wouldn't really make sense because the Ignika is in the mix, and everybody would be wondering why it didn't just make them waterbreathers (like fish) instead of their all being forced to wear the same face all the time.

 

Inbefore "Kadin = Miru", since that comes up a lot too, Kadin is airplane, Miru is hot air balloon. If being forced to move forward constantly is dangerous in a setting you want Miru, so for Toa of Air it's the better mask, but for most others, Flight is better (Kadin), in most situations.

[IXRollOutIX]

My point was less "Everyone should wear a Kaukau!" or "Everyone should wear a Miru/Kadin!" and more... If you're going to establish special powers given to the wearer of a mask, don't ruin the specialty later on by giving them all that ability WITHOUT using the mask. This could obviously been avoided by having them simply NOT delve into the water or soar up into the sky, but the change of atmosphere was interesting, so I wouldn't want that. Instead, it seems to me like the Miru and Kaukau are already semi-adaptive abilities, so when they gave Gali and Lewa armor that made their mask powers useless, I just think they should have been given NEW masks in 2008.

[Shadowhawk]

Toa > baddies

It's magic.

[TERIDAX941]

Actually probably the biggest stretch of plausibility is the Cordak projectiles. Water and fast-moving projectiles don't mix very well. Maybe the projectiles have a torpedo-like engine in the back of each one, I dunno. If not, the squids would probably be way more effective as far as reliable travel to a target (but less dangerous when they get there).

I don't know if Cordak projectiles are designed to fly through the air and move through water or whether there are variations, but in the comic "Hydraxon's tale" the artist drew the rockets with miniature torpedo propellers on the end. no idea if all Cordak are like that, but it's the most logical explaination for rockets that move quickly underwater.

[Adventurer]

The shapes, materials the bodies of the Toa and whatnot are made of may interact differently with water - less resistance and the what not. Furthermore, I tend to think the Toa are quite a bit stronger in terms of the thrust they are capable of generating. For example if we assumed Matoran have equivalent strength to us (which isn't necessarily true and if it weren't true I'd suspect them to be stronger than us), the Toa are meant to be quite a lot more powerful than them, in terms of their raw physical capabilities. Keeping that in mind, it seems plausible hat the extra resistance introduced by the aquatic environment would pose less of an obstacle for the Toa than we would be familiar with from our own experiences.

[bonesiii]

If you're going to establish special powers given to the wearer of a mask, don't ruin the specialty later on by giving them all that ability WITHOUT using the mask. This could obviously been avoided by having them simply NOT delve into the water or soar up into the sky, but the change of atmosphere was interesting, so I wouldn't want that.

Well, that's good.

 

I guess the point is that specialty (total uniqueness anyways) was never really the intent, as again evidenced by Gali swimming by fish in 2001 who didn't need it. Rather, it was to contain in a mask the power that fish had normally. Even if we hadn't seen fish in 2001, it would still remain valid for future water-breathing characters to exist (keep in mind that until the later amphibious thing that also came with a downside the Kaukau doesn't have; inability to breathe air).

 

My main issue is with the statement that having two ways to have the same effect makes one of them "pointless." But since Gali in 2001 didn't have natural amphibious breathing capability (or one granted by a living mask or whonot), the Kaukau did have a point and that is not changed.

 

Instead, it seems to me like the Miru and Kaukau are already semi-adaptive abilities, so when they gave Gali and Lewa armor that made their mask powers useless, I just think they should have been given NEW masks in 2008.

Probably so. Gali's mask, at least, seemed mostly pointless since they had to stay out of the water. At least Lewa's could serve as a backup should his jetpack run out of fuel, though. And I guess Gali could make a giant puddle and breathe in it or something... Yeah, okay, unlikely.

 

And of course, it came one year before 2009, without masks (though even that in a sense drew a kind of attention to them as we thought about how the helmets could have inspired masks, in-story).

Edited August 22, 2014 by bonesiii

[Tuuli]

Who cares if masks give powers able to use without the masks? Let other characters have a chance to fly, or breathe underwater.