OFFICIAL Bionicle 2015 Topic

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

I'm okay with another 01-03 as long as it doesn't follow the same pattern of "collect stuff and go underground" EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. 

 

-NotS

[Sir Kohran]

I'm okay with another 01-03 as long as it doesn't follow the same pattern of "collect stuff and go underground" EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR. 

 

-NotS

 

I agree that was a problem. The Bohrok chapters are arguably the culprits here because they neither introduce or conclude the Mata Nui section. I think it would've been much better to have gone straight from the quest for the masks into the Mask of Light chapter.

 

An added bonus to this would've been that the Nuva transformation could've been kept until after the Metru Nui flashback, and when the six Toa returned they would've been in recognisable forms rather than those bizarre 2008 ones.

[Aanchir]

I'm okay with another 01-03 as long as it doesn't follow the same pattern of "collect stuff and go underground" EVERY. SINGLE. YEAR.

 

-NotS

Not to mention "split up as soon as the battle is done, because achieving a decisive victory by working together as a team taught us nothing about the importance of working together." I have no problem with characters splitting up or getting in disagreements if they have a good reason, but with the Toa Mata it often seemed like they simply couldn't stand being around each other and were convinced they were "better off alone" even when every single life experience they had told them otherwise! It made them seem downright childish.

 

An added bonus to this would've been that the Nuva transformation could've been kept until after the Metru Nui flashback, and when the six Toa returned they would've been in recognisable forms rather than those bizarre 2008 ones.

No, I don't really think that would have helped one bit. The only reason the 2002 Toa Nuva bore such a close resemblance to the 2001 Toa was because hardly any time had passed between the two versions, and part and set design standards hadn't had any time to change considerably. Even then, some of their masks were radically altered — I'd almost say the 2002 Kakama Nuva was closer to the 2008 version (particularly the one in Rockoh T3) than it was to the 2001 version, because at least the pockets in its cheeks and the shape of its mouth area stayed roughly the same between 2002 and 2008. And the 2002 Miru Nuva looked next to nothing like the classic 2001 Miru.

 

For that matter, the Great Kanohi in 2004 were hardly anything like the Noble versions we had seen previously. Okay, the Rau still had round eyes and a round overall shape, and the Huna still had a single "window" for the eyes almost like a visor, and the Mahiki had round "ears" like the noble version, and the Ruru still had triangular pockets in its cheeks. But the similarities were still so incredibly subtle that you'd hardly know the 2004 masks were supposed to be based on previous masks at all unless you were told. The 2005 Toa Hordika faces were scarcely any better.

 

The LEGO Group has definitely gotten better about keeping characters recognizable since BIONICLE ended (for instance, the faces of the 2012, 2013, and 2014 versions of Hero Factory characters are usually very close to the faces of their original forms). But back in the days of BIONICLE, the designers were not very good at this, and fans had to settle for extremely subtle similarities between new and old versions of a mask. I find it extremely hard to believe that delaying the Toa Nuva transformation would have resulted in less of a disconnect between the various versions of the Toa. If anything, it would just make the Toa transform into nigh-unrecognizable forms sooner instead of later.

[Sir Kohran]

I'm under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the reason the Mistika/Phantoka Toa bear hardly any resemblance to the Nuva was because the 'simple' transformation had already been used in 2002 and an 'elaborate' transformation was now needed, hence the Adaptive Armor device which led to figures with almost no resemblance to the Nuva at all. Had a 'simple' transformation option been open at that point, the designs might've had a bit more in common with those they were picking up from. I do admit that the overall changes in parts, colours and set design would've meant these theoretical Nuva wouldn't pick up from the Mata as closely as the actual Nuva did, no question there.

 

Your points about the mask designs are mostly right, but I'm thinking more about character appearances as a whole. And I don't think it was ever stated that Great and Noble versions resemble each other in appearance, even if that might be expected.

[believe victims]

I'm under the impression, rightly or wrongly, that the reason the Mistika/Phantoka Toa bear hardly any resemblance to the Nuva was because the 'simple' transformation had already been used in 2002 and an 'elaborate' transformation was now needed, hence the Adaptive Armor device which led to figures with almost no resemblance to the Nuva at all. Had a 'simple' transformation option been open at that point, the designs might've had a bit more in common with those they were picking up from. I do admit that the overall changes in parts, colours and set design would've meant these theoretical Nuva wouldn't pick up from the Mata as closely as the actual Nuva did, no question there.

 

Your points about the mask designs are mostly right, but I'm thinking more about character appearances as a whole. And I don't think it was ever stated that Great and Noble versions resemble each other in appearance, even if that might be expected.

 

Why would an "elaborate" transformation be needed? I can't think of any instance where making your main characters completely unrecognizable as who they are is an advantage.

 

I'm pretty sure the main reason for the unrecognizability, beyond the obvious of parts changing drastically and their original colors having gone out of style, was that the set designers held the thematic design elements for the waves (jet engines, fins, just overall looking flightworthy) over recognizability. That's why the masks are mostly unrecognizable because of details like fins or intakes added willy-nilly, or having their shapes/textures completely reworked to be more aerodynamic.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Wally

[Toa of Gallifrey]

I heard before that the Phantoka and Mistika originally much more closely resembled the Nuva (and even the Mata) but focus group testing results were negative until radical changes took place. I don't know if there's any truth behind that (I don't even know if TLG does focus group tests like that). I like the Phantoka and Mistika when I keep in mind that's Adaptive Armor and they can always take it off.

[Sir Kohran]

Why would an "elaborate" transformation be needed?

 

Because the simple option had already been used.

 

I can't think of any instance where making your main characters completely unrecognizable as who they are is an advantage.

 

The fact that it's happened several times suggests Lego at least thought there to be an advantage of some kind.

 

Note that they're not always incapable of recognisability/consistency - the Stars, though a little hindered by the limitations of the Av-Matoran build, clearly recreate the appearances of previous years' sets.

Edited November 24, 2014 by Sir Kohran

[dviddy]

I heard before that the Phantoka and Mistika originally much more closely resembled the Nuva (and even the Mata) but focus group testing results were negative until radical changes took place. I don't know if there's any truth behind that (I don't even know if TLG does focus group tests like that). I like the Phantoka and Mistika when I keep in mind that's Adaptive Armor and they can always take it off.

This was indeed the reasoning we were given from Greg at that time. TLG does fairly intensive focus group testing.

[Toa of Gallifrey]

Oh alright, thanks for the confirmation!

[Blastcage]

I bet those focus groups were the same people who later complained about them not looking like who they were supposed to.

[Banana Gunz]

I bet those focus groups were the same people who later complained about them not looking like who they were supposed to.

 

Not sure, I think that was probably us!

[Bfahome]

I don't think we've ever heard of focus groups complaining that they didn't look like their previous incarnations.

[skratchR]

I think the phantoka should have looked like this fan art, made by ToaTiome:

http://i1.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/original/000/447/015/e24.jpg

 

Decent transformation, but fairly recognisable.

[Irrie]

That looks waaaaay too similar to the Nuva.

[Blastcage]

That looks waaaaay too similar to the Nuva.

 

That's kinda the point. We wanted something actually recognizable, instead we got weird aliens that merely had the Nuva's names.

[Irrie]

And what about the fact that the Nuva looked nothing like the Mata?

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Irrational Rock do have a point, the phantoka aren't any different with the Nuva when it comes to it being recognisable to the others forms.

[Makaru]

They have the same body types and even the same variations on those body types. It's hardly the same thing.

 

That's not to say that the Phantoka should have looked like the Nuva. The Nuva were an incredibly archaic design set-wise by the time we got around to that point in time. Not innovating on that after five or six years of advances int he toyline would have been a huge misstep.

 

Which is why I really like the way the 2015 sets are looking. You can tell WHO they are supposed to be. Even Pohatu, despite not being a top-bottom, still harkens key ideals to previous Pohatu designs.

[Sir Kohran]

And what about the fact that the Nuva looked nothing like the Mata?

 

Are you seriously saying you can't see any similarities between these?

 

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Well not really with Gali because like with my friend Maxus, she mostly look like what Takadox  would be like if he was a toa. Plus Pohatu make me think he's Photok more then Pohatu to be honest.

[Irrie]

Saying that the body types were different is not a valid argument, since I seriously doubt that Lego still had the parts for the Mata body in 2008.

@Sir Kohan: The differences between the sets varies. Pohatu Nuva looks very similar to Pohatu Phantoka (excluding the difference in color), while Lewa Mata looks nothing like Lewa Nuva. One comparison of the two early Kopaka sets can't apply to all of them.

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Ya and the last time I check, pieces that are not used in 5 years, will no longer be used. It had been over 5 years, so if I'm right Lego had to use those body in 2007 to keep them around but they was not use in that year and any years after 2003, so the mata body have retired.

 

So the old bionicle pieces we would see again are pieces that was used in the bionicle stars and the bionicle parts that was used in HF from 2010 to now.

And thinking of that, I hope for the love of god, they don't bring back the Nuva Shoulders.

[believe victims]

while Lewa Mata looks nothing like Lewa Nuva.

I should think the similar colors (something the Phantoka didn't have) would help. There are also similarities between the Miru Nuva and the Miru, though I will admit it's one of the more derived ones.

 

Pohatu Nuva looks very similar to Pohatu Phantoka (excluding the difference in color)

...no, he really doesn't.

[Sir Kohran]

@Sir Kohan: The differences between the sets varies. Pohatu Nuva looks very similar to Pohatu Phantoka (excluding the difference in color), while Lewa Mata looks nothing like Lewa Nuva. One comparison of the two early Kopaka sets can't apply to all of them.

 

A difference in colour goes a very long way in whether or not there's a resemblance. Any part similarities between the Pohatus is offset by the fact that the Mata/Nuva is brown and tan whilst the Phantoka one is orange and dark grey - no colour continuity there whatsoever. And the part differences between Lewa Mata and Nuva are mitigated by the fact that the colour scheme, green and lime, is continued.

[Akavakaku]

Just pointing out that parts have been revived after more than 5 years. The Stars brought back Kopaka Mata's sword and the Avohkii after SEVEN years, and I don't know how long it's been since a set featured the disintegration staff.

[believe victims]

Just pointing out that parts have been revived after more than 5 years. The Stars brought back Kopaka Mata's sword and the Avohkii after SEVEN years, and I don't know how long it's been since a set featured the disintegration staff.

Five years, with the last set being the Stars Rahkshi.

 

Also it had actually been six years for the Kopaka sword; its last use before Skrall was this set.

 

Their reason for not using the Mata body was that they had a new standard build they used in canister sets, which had much more poseability than the Mata build. I wouldn't argue that the Phantoka/Mistika should have used the Mata build, but I also disliked that they used the bland Inika/Piraka build.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Pohatu phantoka's big mistake is being A. Grey primary, and B. top-heavy with thin hips.

[bioniclepluslotr]

Why should they look the same? They've changed, and the point is that... they've changed.

[Irrie]

Why should they look the same? They've changed, and the point is that... they've changed.

THANK YOU! 

I was going to say that earlier, but I had to put my phone away. 

[believe victims]

Why should they look the same? They've changed, and the point is that... they've changed.

 

Character recognizability? That's a pretty important thing. They don't have to look the same, but there SHOULD be a resemblance. Ever notice how every incarnation of Optimus Prime has a similar head and color scheme/layout? Character recognizability. If the only thing tying two incarnations of a character together is the name, then you're doing something wrong.

[Aanchir]

Nobody's saying that they should look exactly the same. But they should still ideally look recognizable enough that you can tell they're the same characters without having to specifically look for clues in a side-by-side comparison. That's just good design.

 

As an example, the 2012, 2013, and 2014 versions of Preston Stormer from LEGO Hero Factory were all very different than the 2010 version, but there was still enough continuity in the design that you could recognize them as different versions of the same character.

 

Transformations can be great in a story, even radical ones! But if the transformation is so drastic that people make the mistake of thinking you just designed a completely new character and slapped an existing character's name on it, you probably haven't made the connection between the new and old versions clear enough in your design.

Edited November 25, 2014 by Aanchir

[masterchirox580]

Also something to note is that the depiction of what I believe is Makuta in the poster is very similar to that of MOL, you know where he is just glowing eyes in shadows and you can't get a clear look at him. If the poster says anything then I think that's how he will be depicted in the graphic novels. 

[Irrie]

 

Why should they look the same? They've changed, and the point is that... they've changed.

 

Character recognizability? That's a pretty important thing. They don't have to look the same, but there SHOULD be a resemblance. Ever notice how every incarnation of Optimus Prime has a similar head and color scheme/layout? Character recognizability. If the only thing tying two incarnations of a character together is the name, then you're doing something wrong.

 

Yes, but that is what they managed to achieve. The Phantoka/Mistika were different, however still had some similarities (i.e. Pohatu's mask is very similar, Kopaka still has a scope, Pohatu still has double 'claw-like¹' weapons, Lewa had a sword-like weapon), but they were new and fresh. 

 

¹Debatable, but still looks claw-like to me. 

Edited November 25, 2014 by The Irrational Rock

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

Nuju had a scope, Pohatu's mask is more similar to the Vahi then the Kakama and the claw like...   meh.

Also what about the Mistika with Tahu, man Gali and Onua?

[Irrie]

Nuju had a scope, Pohatu's mask is more similar to the Vahi then the Kakama and the claw like...   meh.

Also what about the Mistika with Tahu, man Gali and Onua?

I admit, the Mistika didn't look that much like the Nuva, but I kind of like that since the Nuva weren't very good looking sets to start with. 

I believe that most people think that Pohatu's mask resembles the Vahi because it uses a visor for the top of the head (I may be wrong), but if it wasn't trans blue, it would resemble his Nuva mask much more. His vehicle-modified version looks even closer. 

[believe victims]

Yes, but that is what they managed to achieve.

If you showed someone who didn't know any better both the Toa Nuva and the Toa Phantoka/Mistika, how easily do you think they would be able to say they're the same characters? Would it be an automatic click? Or would you need to tell them? I'm pretty sure it's the latter, which means no, they did not achieve it.

 

 

Kopaka still has a scope

 

On the wrong side. His mask has more in common with Nuju's than with his own.

 

 

 but they were new and fresh. 

 

The Toa 2015 manage to be new and fresh while still being recognizably the same characters as their 2001 incarnation. Even the new Mask of Jungle, which is easily the least recognizable of the 2015 masks, is more recognizable than the closest of the 2008 masks. "New and fresh" doesn't necessitate scrapping identifiability, like the Phantoka/Mistika very much did.

[Mr. Cup of Fail]

I admit, the Mistika didn't look that much like the Nuva, but I kind of like that since the Nuva weren't very good looking sets to start with. 

I believe that most people think that Pohatu's mask resembles the Vahi because it uses a visor for the top of the head (I may be wrong), but if it wasn't trans blue, it would resemble his Nuva mask much more. His vehicle-modified version looks even closer. 

 

 

The only thing that the common was the silver, that was it, nothing else really and Tahu mask is common with optimus prime. Now with Pohatu mask, if it wasn't trans-blue and was orange it still wouldn't look like the Nuva or Mata mask (unless you was talking about something else then color) and same with the the top of the head was like the Mata or Nuva, then maybe. 

Now the  vehicle-modified version is close but not closer.

[Varka]

Wow, this is really cool. I've been absent for quite a few years and pop back in to learn that Bionicle is coming back.   I Can't wait to see what 2015 holds.

[Irrie]

 

I admit, the Mistika didn't look that much like the Nuva, but I kind of like that since the Nuva weren't very good looking sets to start with. 

I believe that most people think that Pohatu's mask resembles the Vahi because it uses a visor for the top of the head (I may be wrong), but if it wasn't trans blue, it would resemble his Nuva mask much more. His vehicle-modified version looks even closer. 

 

 

The only thing that the common was the silver, that was it, nothing else really and Tahu mask is common with optimus prime. Now with Pohatu mask, if it wasn't trans-blue and was orange it still wouldn't look like the Nuva or Mata mask (unless you was talking about something else then color) and same with the the top of the head was like the Mata or Nuva, then maybe. 

Now the  vehicle-modified version is close but not closer.

 

Although I don't totally agree with this, I have heard that the Phantoka Pohatu mask looks more like his Mata version than Nuva. 

[Blueblur21]

I loved the 2008 Toa forms. Lewa had the best. We need more masks with visors.