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Goodbye Mata Nui, Meet Okoto

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Not sure if I like it or not. I guess we're all just really used to locations have 2 words and a dash between them.

Edited by Daiker

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I actually really like this name. It has the flow of the classic '01 names and I hope that vibe continues throughout the reboot.

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Okoto... Japanese-influenced Bionicle confirmed?

Well, regardless of a possible Japanese influence or not, Okoto really sounds like something from Bionicle's early years, so this really excites me (although I wish it had "Nui" after it, but oh well :P )

 Oh man, that would be incredible!!!! there could be soot sprites, tree spirits and kappas galore!!!!!

and toa ninjas.

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Man this community has some skilled sleuths! Such dedication! :') I quite like the name though, I'm liking all the little bits of info we've been picking up they seem to be pointing to a direction I quite like. :)


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Okoto sounds cool. You know, still has that tribal feel to it. Those vowel endings and hard "K" really drive that feel. Toa, Mata-Nui, Turaga, MaKuta, Akaku, Kaukau, Hau, Kakama...I mean do I need to keep going?

Great point there! No wonder Okoto sounds nostalgic to me  :D

 

Btw I heard Greg stated in his Q&A LEGO message board that the 2015 story will occur in an alternate universe. Anyone mind show me a link to that post where he said so?

 

I thought that if this is confirmed to be true, then this establishes a connection between the 2015 Bionicle story with everything up til 2010. IMO this means that we may see Greg continuing the Spherus Magna story in one way or another, maybe via the web serials?

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Great point there! No wonder Okoto sounds nostalgic to me  :D

 

Btw I heard Greg stated in his Q&A LEGO message board that the 2015 story will occur in an alternate universe. Anyone mind show me a link to that post where he said so?

 

I thought that if this is confirmed to be true, then this establishes a connection between the 2015 Bionicle story with everything up til 2010. IMO this means that we may see Greg continuing the Spherus Magna story in one way or another, maybe via the web serials?

 

If that's true, it's going to confuse the Ussal out of people, just saying. <_< I don't think Greg would directly tell information on a theme's story which we're meant to find out about later, not right now. I'm in for a link to it just like you though. :)

Edited by Rooster Nui
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Also, Lego is pretty bad at keeping secrets, as we always get photos of the next year's sets before November, which is usually when they are officially announced. Just a thought.

Hmmm, I wonder why sets that have been designed over a year ago have suddenly popped up a couple of months before the official release of every past year of BIONICLE, just in time to build a hype? ;) (Not implying anything about the legality of sharing leaked info here, only officially released content should be featured on BZPower)

 

That's "otoko," not okoto, but it's just a syllable switch around, so you never know. Bionicle is no stranger to only slightly manipulating foreign words and using them as names.

BIONICLE is no stranger to using foreign words either, even after the Maori controversy. Many of the Matoran introduced in MNOLG II had Finnish names ("Pakastaa", "Arktinen"), "Stelt" roughly means "puts" (as in "he puts something on the table") in my native language (Dutch) and 2009 terms like "Aqua Magna" were clearly taken from Latin, knowingly and without hesitation. The rule that names couldn't mean something in any other language (which is insanely restrictive considering there are about 7000 languages spoken on Earth today, each with tens of thousands of words) really only ever applied to Maori and other Polynesian languages, since the ones who complained about it were Maori. So even if "Okoto" sound like something Japanese or means something in English (I'm also wondering where those definitions come from actually), I'm sure it's no problem.

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BIONICLE is no stranger to using foreign words either, even after the Maori controversy. Many of the Matoran introduced in MNOLG II had Finnish names ("Pakastaa", "Arktinen"), "Stelt" roughly means "puts" (as in "he puts something on the table") in my native language (Dutch) and 2009 terms like "Aqua Magna" were clearly taken from Latin, knowingly and without hesitation. The rule that names couldn't mean something in any other language (which is insanely restrictive considering there are about 7000 languages spoken on Earth today, each with tens of thousands of words) really only ever applied to Maori and other Polynesian languages, since the ones who complained about it were Maori. So even if "Okoto" sound like something Japanese or means something in English (I'm also wondering where those definitions come from actually), I'm sure it's no problem.

 

 

After MNOLG II, most names that came from a foreign language came from Latin, which is a dead language, so nobody cares if you copyright its terms, because nobody speaks it on a regular basis or has a culture built around it.

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BIONICLE is no stranger to using foreign words either, even after the Maori controversy. Many of the Matoran introduced in MNOLG II had Finnish names ("Pakastaa", "Arktinen"), "Stelt" roughly means "puts" (as in "he puts something on the table") in my native language (Dutch) and 2009 terms like "Aqua Magna" were clearly taken from Latin, knowingly and without hesitation. The rule that names couldn't mean something in any other language (which is insanely restrictive considering there are about 7000 languages spoken on Earth today, each with tens of thousands of words) really only ever applied to Maori and other Polynesian languages, since the ones who complained about it were Maori. So even if "Okoto" sound like something Japanese or means something in English (I'm also wondering where those definitions come from actually), I'm sure it's no problem.

 

 

After MNOLG II, most names that came from a foreign language came from Latin, which is a dead language, so nobody cares if you copyright its terms, because nobody speaks it on a regular basis or has a culture built around it.

 

 

Though I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there was offended by the use of Latin. Stranger things have happened.

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BIONICLE is no stranger to using foreign words either, even after the Maori controversy. Many of the Matoran introduced in MNOLG II had Finnish names ("Pakastaa", "Arktinen"), "Stelt" roughly means "puts" (as in "he puts something on the table") in my native language (Dutch) and 2009 terms like "Aqua Magna" were clearly taken from Latin, knowingly and without hesitation. The rule that names couldn't mean something in any other language (which is insanely restrictive considering there are about 7000 languages spoken on Earth today, each with tens of thousands of words) really only ever applied to Maori and other Polynesian languages, since the ones who complained about it were Maori. So even if "Okoto" sound like something Japanese or means something in English (I'm also wondering where those definitions come from actually), I'm sure it's no problem.

 

 

After MNOLG II, most names that came from a foreign language came from Latin, which is a dead language, so nobody cares if you copyright its terms, because nobody speaks it on a regular basis or has a culture built around it.

 

 

Though I wouldn't be surprised if someone out there was offended by the use of Latin. Stranger things have happened.

 

Such as? I would like to know. It seems quite odd in general.


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After MNOLG II, most names that came from a foreign language came from Latin, which is a dead language, so nobody cares if you copyright its terms, because nobody speaks it on a regular basis or has a culture built around it.

Latin is the language of the Catholic Church, so simply saying "It's dead so no one cares." isn't really a valid argument. And while it is true that the terms purposefully taken from a foreign language were taken from Latin, a lot of terms in the entire series were also identical to words in other foreign languages without TLG actually intending to base them on these languages. As I said previously, "Stelt" is an example from my native language, but there are many more terms like that. "Velika" means "big" in many languages spoken in the Balkan area of Europe, "Kazi" is the Persian version of the Arabic "Qadi", meaning a judge in an Islamic court, I know people called "Hakan" or "Idris", "Tanma" is Georgian for "tree trunk"... Need I go on?
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After MNOLG II, most names that came from a foreign language came from Latin, which is a dead language, so nobody cares if you copyright its terms, because nobody speaks it on a regular basis or has a culture built around it.

Latin is the language of the Catholic Church, so simply saying "It's dead so no one cares." isn't really a valid argument. And while it is true that the terms purposefully taken from a foreign language were taken from Latin, a lot of terms in the entire series were also identical to words in other foreign languages without TLG actually intending to base them on these languages. As I said previously, "Stelt" is an example from my native language, but there are many more terms like that. "Velika" means "big" in many languages spoken in the Balkan area of Europe, "Kazi" is the Persian version of the Arabic "Qadi", meaning a judge in an Islamic court, I know people called "Hakan" or "Idris", "Tanma" is Georgian for "tree trunk"... Need I go on?

 

 

When was the last time the Catholic Church sued someone for trying to copyright Latin terms? And do any of them speak it on a regular basis? If not, it's a dead language. Plain and simple.

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Seeing as its a name that has never been mentioned in the original bionicle story, I think its safe to say that the new bionicle will be a complete reboot, not a continuation of the previous story.

A lot of things in the original story weren't mentioned in 2001 and that didn't make everything a reboot.
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When was the last time the Catholic Church sued someone for trying to copyright Latin terms?

When was the last time anyone other than the Maori activists complained about anyone using their language in their intellectual property?

 

And do any of them speak it on a regular basis? If not, it's a dead language. Plain and simple.

That's not actually how it works. Latin is not dead since the romance languages descend from it. And on top of that is is the liturgical language of the Catholic Church, many hymns are sung in Latin because of the significance it has to the Catholic Church.

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And do any of them speak it on a regular basis? If not, it's a dead language. Plain and simple.

That's not actually how it works. Latin is not dead since the romance languages descend from it. And on top of that is is the liturgical language of the Catholic Church, many hymns are sung in Latin because of the significance it has to the Catholic Church.

 

...um, that's exactly how the term "dead language" works. If it no longer has any native speakers, it's a dead language.

 

If speaking a language it descended from counted as speaking Latin, then I would be speaking German right now, or at least an ancient form of it. Latin is not any less dead just because people still speak its linguistic descendants.

 

also I think the Maori were perfectly justified in trying to protect their culture, considering LEGO was trying to copyright their word for priest.

Edited by Lucina
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When was the last time the Catholic Church sued someone for trying to copyright Latin terms?

When was the last time anyone other than the Maori activists complained about anyone using their language in their intellectual property?

 

And do any of them speak it on a regular basis? If not, it's a dead language. Plain and simple.

That's not actually how it works. Latin is not dead since the romance languages descend from it. And on top of that is is the liturgical language of the Catholic Church, many hymns are sung in Latin because of the significance it has to the Catholic Church.

 

 

Hey! So I just wanted to clear things up: Lucina's description is exactly how it works! Science- especially the biology field, my favourite :D - also uses Latin. It was considered the language of science at one point. It doesn't stop it from being a dead language! It's nothing terrible, it just means that it's no longer in everyday spoken use. No one uses Latin as an everyday spoken language anymore. Your example- the Catholic Church- does not use it in an everyday way. Hymns and the like are not everyday; I wouldn't greet someone and ask about their day with a hymn.

 

But I'm a bit off topic. I'm not entirely sure how to feel about the name 'Okoto' - it puts in mind a bustling neon city to me- but I'm quite happy to sit back and see what happens!

I hope some iteration of Bara Magna comes back if it's a reboot, though. Some of my favourite characters are there. :c

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl
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Something else to keep in mind: on one level, Latin is a dead language, but on another level, it is immortal. The Catholic Church is not the only institution that uses it. Latin terms are widely used in scientific fields, for instance. Also, the Latin language is extremely well-documented, and there are countless scholars who analyze the way it would have been used at its peak.

 

The Maori language does not have that kind of standing in Western culture. Preserving the language is extremely important to the Maori people because if they don't, it could be more or less in danger of disappearing from actual use and only appearing in linguistics books. This is a threat that faces a lot of languages belonging to cultures that were victims of Western colonialism. So it's easy to see why speakers of this language would be a bit defensive about it being used commercially. Languages like Latin that are treasured as the heritage of Western civilization aren't in any danger of being stripped of their original context, but the same can't be said for languages like Maori that struggle for recognition outside of the communities that still speak them.

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...um, that's exactly how the term "dead language" works. If it no longer has any native speakers, it's a dead language.

 

If speaking a language it descended from counted as speaking Latin, then I would be speaking German right now, or at least an ancient form of it. Latin is not any less dead just because people still speak its linguistic descendants.

No it's not. Language death happens when the last native speaker of a language dies and the language is replaced by another language in the language community. That didn't happen with Latin, Latin gradually developed into Italian, Spanish French etc. That doesn't mean people who speak Spanish actually speak Latin, but it does mean that they speak a descendant from Latin and therefore Latin is not dead. No you shouldn't speak some ancient form of German, but that doesn't mean Old German is dead. Old German developed into Modern German.

 

also I think the Maori were perfectly justified in trying to protect their culture, considering LEGO was trying to copyright their word for priest.

Well I strongly disagree but I think we're straying off topic again. If you want to discuss this you can PM me.

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...um, that's exactly how the term "dead language" works. If it no longer has any native speakers, it's a dead language.

 

If speaking a language it descended from counted as speaking Latin, then I would be speaking German right now, or at least an ancient form of it. Latin is not any less dead just because people still speak its linguistic descendants.

No it's not. Language death happens when the last native speaker of a language dies and the language is replaced by another language in the language community. That didn't happen with Latin, Latin gradually developed into Italian, Spanish French etc. That doesn't mean people who speak Spanish actually speak Latin, but it does mean that they speak a descendant from Latin and therefore Latin is not dead. No you shouldn't speak some ancient form of German, but that doesn't mean Old German is dead. Old German developed into Modern German.

 

...what? That's really not how language death works. Latin's descendants are what replaced Latin. Latin is not spoken natively by anyone. That is what being a dead language means. If you look up the definition of "dead language", the definition you get says "a language no longer in everyday spoken use, such as Latin." It doesn't get much more clear-cut than that.

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They're different, but that difference doesn't apply here. An extinct language is a language that is both dead and has left no real traces, no writing, no recordings of how it was spoken, and can therefore not be researched and never revitalized (which happened with Hebrew).

 

I see Wikipedia features different explanations of the terms than the ones I posted, but what I wrote is what my professors told me during my bachelor Linguistics. Wikipedia can be wrong, I trust my professors more when it comes to their field of expertise.

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No it's not. Language death happens when the last native speaker of a language dies and the language is replaced by another language in the language community. That didn't happen with Latin, Latin gradually developed into Italian, Spanish French etc. That doesn't mean people who speak Spanish actually speak Latin, but it does mean that they speak a descendant from Latin and therefore Latin is not dead. No you shouldn't speak some ancient form of German, but that doesn't mean Old German is dead. Old German developed into Modern German.

 

 

I don't want to sound rude, but if you Google the definition for 'dead language', it literally gives Latin as an example. No one speaks Latin on an everyday basis. It is a dead language. It is actually the poster-boy for dead languages. You ask anyone on the street for a dead language and they will immediately reply with 'Latin'. Other languages may have borrowed from it- you look into the history of the English language and you'll find a swag of different languages rolled into it, and Latin's probably one of them- but no one uses Latin itself anymore. It's gone. It's dead. It did not adapt into modern Latin and still goes on, it stopped being used. It was changed to New Latin for use in science, but that did not count as an actual language as no one used it on an everyday basis. If they did, then it wouldn't be a dead language. But they didn't. So it is.

 

EDIT: I think you may have misheard your professors. If you search for actual scholarly texts studying Latin, each and every one of them refer to it as a dead language.

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl
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I don't want to sound rude, but if you Google the definition for 'dead language', it literally gives Latin as an example. No one speaks Latin on an everyday basis. It is a dead language. It is actually the poster-boy for dead languages. You ask anyone on the street for a dead language and they will immediately reply with 'Latin'. Other languages may have borrowed from it- you look into the history of the English language and you'll find a swag of different languages rolled into it, and Latin's probably one of them- but no one uses Latin itself anymore. It's gone. It's dead. It did not adapt into modern Latin and still goes on, it stopped being used. It was changed to New Latin for use in science, but that did not count as an actual language as no one used it on an everyday basis. If they did, then it wouldn't be a dead language. But they didn't. So it is.

Latin being dead is a common misconception, that's why you get that result when you google it and that's why everybody else here thinks it is. Linguists don't consider gradual language change to be a form of language death since it's impossible to pinpoint language death that way, and therefore impossible to classify languages as alive or dead.

 

Edit:

 

EDIT: I think you may have misheard your professors. If you search for actual scholarly texts studying Latin, each and every one of them refer to it as a dead language.

They said it was a common misconception, so I really don't think I misheard them. It might be that there is disagreement within the scientific community about the terminology however and that they failed to mention that... That wouldn't actually be the first time they failed to mention disagreement on scientific issues at my university. So I'll concede that some linguists probably consider ancestral languages dead languages as well. Edited by Thormen
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I don't want to sound rude, but if you Google the definition for 'dead language', it literally gives Latin as an example. No one speaks Latin on an everyday basis. It is a dead language. It is actually the poster-boy for dead languages. You ask anyone on the street for a dead language and they will immediately reply with 'Latin'. Other languages may have borrowed from it- you look into the history of the English language and you'll find a swag of different languages rolled into it, and Latin's probably one of them- but no one uses Latin itself anymore. It's gone. It's dead. It did not adapt into modern Latin and still goes on, it stopped being used. It was changed to New Latin for use in science, but that did not count as an actual language as no one used it on an everyday basis. If they did, then it wouldn't be a dead language. But they didn't. So it is.

Latin being dead is a common misconception, that's why you get that result when you google it and that's why everybody else here thinks it is. Linguists dont' consider gradual language change to be a form of language death since it's impossible to pinpoint language death that way, and therefore impossible to classify languages as alive or dead.

 

 

It must be a very common misconception, if every other scholarly source I've found states it. Look, I'm really sorry and I know it's not fair for everyone to gang up on you like this, but Latin is, indeed, a very dead language. While yes, linguists do have a point that it's hard to pinpoint gradual change- usually for the big changes you can pinpoint them but for smaller changes that can be harder- but by the common, accepted, layman's definition, it's a dead language.

 

EDIT:

They said it was a common misconception, so I really don't think I misheard them. It might be that there is disagreement within the scientific community about the terminology however and that they failed to mention that... That wouldn't actually be the first time they failed to mention disagreement on scientific issues at my university. So I'll concede that some linguists probably consider ancestral languages dead languages as well. 

 

 

It's probably differing definitions. All the sources I've seen point to the definition used by everyone else- that is, it's not used in an everyday way. This also seems to explain why all my sources indicate that it is a dead language; perhaps your professors' definition is from a small niche rather than the one used by other areas. They should probably have clarified this to you in your course, but it's understandable if they didn't.

 

EDIT EDIT: We're really, REALLY getting off topic here. I say we put it down to differing definitions of the phrase "dead language" and cut it out before we completely derail the discussion. Further than we have, I mean. We're practically on another set of rails now.

Edited by ZippyWharrgarbl

Memoirs of the Dead entry: The Unknown Turaga, a tale from the late Chronicler Kodan's journal.


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It must be a very common misconception, if every other scholarly source I've found states it. Look, I'm really sorry and I know it's not fair for everyone to gang up on you like this, but Latin is, indeed, a very dead language. While yes, linguists do have a point that it's hard to pinpoint gradual change- usually for the big changes you can pinpoint them but for smaller changes that can be harder- but by the common, accepted, layman's definition, it's a dead language.

 

[..]

 

It's probably differing definitions. All the sources I've seen point to the definition used by everyone else- that is, it's not used in an everyday way. This also seems to explain why all my sources indicate that it is a dead language; perhaps your professors' definition is from a small niche rather than the one used by other areas. They should probably have clarified this to you in your course, but it's understandable if they didn't.

Lol, I don't mind people "ganging up on me " :) It's simply a discussion. The thing is, the definition my professors explained to me is a lot more consistent than what Wikipedia says and what the articles you found seem to be using. Wikipedia defines language death the way I explained it, but basically says language can be "dead" without having experienced language "death". On top of that, the difference between a dead language and a living language becomes exceedingly blurry that way. Is English as it was spoken 100 years ago dead? Because it's not exactly the same as English as it is spoken today: a small amount of language change has occurred. I think most people however would say no, it is not dead because it's English.

 

So I'll say Lucina's original point about Latin being dead was a fair point in light of the different definitions of the term "dead language", but I think the one I was taught makes more sense.

 

Edit:

 

EDIT EDIT: We're really, REALLY getting off topic here. I say we put it down to differing definitions of the phrase "dead language" and cut it out before we completely derail the discussion. Further than we have, I mean. We're practically on another set of rails now.

Agreed.

Edited by Thormen

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I didnt expect them to keep the name Mata Nui for the new location, if its even the same place. I'm totally fine with Okoto. Sounds fun and tribal like 01. I cant wait to hear more from NY CC



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I think the best way to go about the new story is to make it take place in a parallel universe. I doubt LEGO would do a Disney and declare that the original story never actually happened.

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The more new information about Bionicle, the more I'm even doubtful if its a continuation over a reboot. :( All these mixed feelings. Please just give us a sign TLC! :'( Otherwise, I do enjoy the island name but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions as to why the Toa Mata are all back together when we last saw them. 3 were managing the spherus magna population, 2 were trapped in the red star, and 1 is being held captive by angry villagers. :(

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I think the best way to go about the new story is to make it take place in a parallel universe. I doubt LEGO would do a Disney and declare that the original story never actually happened.

Frankly, I still can't see the difference between "parallel universe that never crosses over with the original" and "complete reboot". They're functionally the same, except with the former you always have the chance that someone like Vezon or Takanuva will jump the fence and complicate things, while the latter eliminates that risk and allows the new story to develop independently. But hey, if Lego needs to pull out the parallel universe excuse just to satisfy fans who can't justify being fans of two different versions of the Bionicle story unless both occupy a shared multiverse, then that's their prerogative. I'll just have to hold out hope that the boundary between those universes remains solid and uncrossed.

Edited by Lyichir
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The more new information about Bionicle, the more I'm even doubtful if its a continuation over a reboot. :( All these mixed feelings. Please just give us a sign TLC! :'( Otherwise, I do enjoy the island name but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions as to why the Toa Mata are all back together when we last saw them. 3 were managing the spherus magna population, 2 were trapped in the red star, and 1 is being held captive by angry villagers. :(

Just wondering, where does it say that the Mata are reunited?

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The more new information about Bionicle, the more I'm even doubtful if its a continuation over a reboot. :( All these mixed feelings. Please just give us a sign TLC! :'( Otherwise, I do enjoy the island name but it leaves a lot of unanswered questions as to why the Toa Mata are all back together when we last saw them. 3 were managing the spherus magna population, 2 were trapped in the red star, and 1 is being held captive by angry villagers. :(

Just wondering, where does it say that the Mata are reunited?

 

Nowhere in particular. 

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Btw I heard Greg stated in his Q&A LEGO message board that the 2015 story will occur in an alternate universe. Anyone mind show me a link to that post where he said so?

 

I thought that if this is confirmed to be true, then this establishes a connection between the 2015 Bionicle story with everything up til 2010. IMO this means that we may see Greg continuing the Spherus Magna story in one way or another, maybe via the web serials?

Are you thinking of this?

 

 

So what will happen to the unfinished serials in regards to 2015's storyline? Can they not be finished now?

I have not been asked to do that, for reasons that I think will become clear after NYCC.

 

 

As far as I know, that's the only hard evidence in favor of a story reboot, albeit quite substantial. I don't think that Greg is allowed to confirm particulars, so I don't think he would have given any more specific information (though as answers on Bionicle 2015 go, this is pretty specific.)

 

If that doesn't indicate a reboot, I'm not sure what it does.

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