Jump to content
Boidoh

Toa Mangai of Ice Kanohi Poll

Toa Mangai of Ice Kanohi Poll  

108 members have voted

You do not have permission to vote in this poll, or see the poll results. Please sign in or register to vote in this poll.

Recommended Posts

I voted for the Rode because a Toa of Ice is going to need some truth later on.

Anyways I think Gen1 canonizing is fine but certain aspects of it are a little weird and nit picky especially since the voting demographic is ridiculously small.

I don't mind this canonization but it does eliminate some of the imagination behind what the characters exactly were.

As for the suva theory, if the unknown Mangai were left, you could just pretend they had one.

I mean I know Bionicle has canon and all but the story has a lot of room for you own thoughts and ideas. I don't necessarily fully agree with what I just said I'm just throwing that thought out there.

 

Forgive me if my thought was already mentioned, it's late and I skipped over one or two long posts.


9HYoRY7.pngKayn's Thought: My hiatus of Bionicle has ended

 

 

                                                                                                 

 

                                                              

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

@Katuko/bonesiii: 

For some reason, having a weakness already pre-defined in code actually seems like an asset to me. Usually I find weaknesses in my programs' code after I run it. :P At least, now I know what it is, right?

 

Also if I did use this in a fanfic, I would be tempted to have characters "re-speak" a power to keep it active. For example if they were in a dark cave and conjured up night-vision, they would speak the power again at the 14-minute mark to "reset the timer" back to 15 min, and then do it again. I can also imagine someone repeating their power more often in a battle since they would lose track of time and feel the need to repeat their power "just in case." I guess I was wondering whether that would be consistent with the mask's power or not, or it would have to "expire" and then reset. 

 

With that in mind, the speaking thing would make more sense than the "thinking coma" thing, would it not? Because then you'd be out every 15 - at least with this you'd still able to fight while talking. (Kiina's favorite mask. :P)

Edited by fishers64

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Two things to say first before I get to replies:

 

-The administration has declined having a rule about poll options. We're just going to have to deal with them on a case by case basis. Sorry folks. But we will still have the recommendation in the guidelines. :)

 

-With this poll specifically... I dunno, I'm not seeing many obvious runaways. Fate, Truth, and Conjuring have 15+ votes each, but for the fourth one, I'd say it's too close to call, and even those aren't that far ahead. I still think it'd be nice to have some way to tell these four Ko-Toa apart so that may be reason enough to keep supporting this... but I think this is a factor worth making us rethink this one. Maybe at least a second round where any with one vote, and maybe... up to three??? is removed so people who picked those can tiebreak between the rest?

 

 

Replies:

 

fishers:

 

I guess I was wondering whether that would be consistent with the mask's power or not, or it would have to "expire" and then reset.

I saw it as a power drain, so have to expire and recharge.

 

 

Katuko:

 

"If you are aware of the incoming danger, it is blocked. If you are not aware - such as because you do can't see it - it goes through. That's it."

 

Well, MOL called that into question. Because Tahu was aware of the Rahkshi attack, he projected the shield. Had he not been, evidently the shield would not appear. If it's up, and an unexpected attack comes, will it still block that? Or would it slip through that shield? There's been debate about this. I'm not really talking about whether any particular answer is canonically confirmed, I'm just saying it gave potential to get complicated as past discussions have shown. :)

 

"But most I have seen has "summon specific monster" or "summon chosen monster" or "summon monster of a certain size". The Zatth is completely out of the user's control."

 

Well, I suspect that, too, was out of a concern that having control over it would make it overpowered. This way you can generally bet on either a distraction or a dud, but the distraction might end up being worse for the user.

 

"I believe he explicitly said the Vahi could not time travel, because that's when he was first asked about time travel."

 

He said no users exist who have enough mental concentration to make it time travel, so it's both, actually. But the mask itself has the capacity (and he confirmed that if it broke, Vakama's description of what the released time energies would do is accurate, and that included chaotic time travel).

 

"I'm sure it could also have been a Mask of Power Scream, befitting it's open mouth."

 

Sure, but any mask shape could have been used for other powers besides what was chosen.

 

"How is that over-complicating it? You are adding spoken commands, whereas mental commands would already be inherent in literally every single other mask power."

 

Well, I answered this in the quote you're replying to there... I'm not adding the concept of spoken commands. It comes from the idea of Matoran (spoken) being a programming language. And yes, the power has this unique to it (although given functionally infinite powers, undoubtedly there are others that involve speech; it was also partly chosen due to the mask shape's similarity to the Great Rau, which involves speech too; it should be simply seen as rare, not totally unique). Powers generally have things unique or mostly so to them. :P You're just picking out one of them here.

 

"You like to act as if thinking it is more complicated than speaking it"

 

I'm saying it seems more dangerous. As long as you keep your mouth shut you know you're safe. Brains, at least for humans, can slip easily, yanno? You have to add some sort of a mental safeguard to get around this, which other masks like Komau or the normal mental triggering of powers don't have either. You're adding a "safe thoughts" and "final answer thought" idea that is foreign to just about anything, but thinking before speaking is a normal concept, already inherent in the idea that a spoken language is a programming language.

 

"They should not need a mask to do it if they are really speaking a programming language - the commands would already be valid software for the hardware they are running."

 

Not sure what you mean here. You need some kind of input for the spoken programming language to control anything. The Conjuring power is one such input, granting limited control over powers. :)

 

"Again, it's personal taste on your part as well."

 

Yes it is... Why do you mention this, since I've already said that? (It was mentioned in the quote this is replying to, too.)

 

"But what you feel is inspired by BIONICLE is different from what others feel is inspired by BIONICLE."

 

?? But the thing that inspired it is part of Bionicle!

 

"To me, speaking a power definition out loud is not BIONICLE in any way, because every power in BIONICLE is based upon mental activation"

 

Rau translates spoken language. Presumably you mentally activate the power so it can 'hear' the speech (the glowing effect in LoMN supports this, rather than it being an always-on), but that would be the case for Conjuring too (at least as I see it; definition doesn't actually mention that but most definitions do leave it implied). I'm guessing you were assuming that the speech turns the mask on, but I think it makes more sense that something has to be turned on to hear the speech.

 

Actually, the Mask of Truth evidentally actually does have an always-on listening and will in that sense be activated by hearing speech (and then give the user the sense of whether it's true or not, presumably with a telepathic addition, yes).

 

But even without that, having a unique feature doesn't prove it's bad. The Hau alone makes energy walls, and the Kaukau alone lets you breathe in water, etc. etc. (Unless you get those through Emulation or Conjuring type of powers. :P)

 

Keep in mind too that once the programming is complete, normal mental control takes over until the power wears off.

 

RL:

 

"what's odd here is you're saying it's not hard to grasp, but it never takes you less than two paragraphs to describe it."

 

Like I said, it's only taking long because somebody is bringing up lots of attempts to argue against it. But that could be done against any power; would that prove those powers are hard to grasp? No. And as I mentioned, that's happened in the past for some of them. But the basic idea is simple. Just don't overthink it lol.

 

Also works both ways. Katuko is saying his alternative is simpler, but taking many sentences to defend it. (Not that I'd use that argument, I'm just illustrating why the logic doesn't really work.)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"If you are aware of the incoming danger, it is blocked. If you are not aware - such as because you do can't see it - it goes through. That's it."

 

Well, MOL called that into question. Because Tahu was aware of the Rahkshi attack, he projected the shield. Had he not been, evidently the shield would not appear. If it's up, and an unexpected attack comes, will it still block that? Or would it slip through that shield? There's been debate about this. I'm not really talking about whether any particular answer is canonically confirmed, I'm just saying it gave potential to get complicated as past discussions have shown. :)

The portrayal in MoL does not differ from any previous portrayals. Tahu looks at the incoming danger, and it gets blocked. The movie also took the artistic liberty of having him flung through a wall from the force, but the shield never failed to deploy. We see it get used the same way in the MNOG, where Onua looks at something and brings up the shield before he gets hit. If the shield is up and he can conceivably tell that the attack coming, he can block it. If it comes from outside his field of view, he cannot.

 

"But most I have seen has "summon specific monster" or "summon chosen monster" or "summon monster of a certain size". The Zatth is completely out of the user's control."

 

Well, I suspect that, too, was out of a concern that having control over it would make it overpowered. This way you can generally bet on either a distraction or a dud, but the distraction might end up being worse for the user.

"Either a distraction or a dud" is... well, pretty bad as far as masks go. I am of the mind that a mask power should only fail if it was ill suited to the situations, not because it worked but the result was entirely random. A major limit is already inherent in that you can't actually control the summoned creature. If it's usually like summoning a cow into a firefight, I do not think that it also needs to have a random chance to summon something entirely useless instead.

 

"I'm sure it could also have been a Mask of Power Scream, befitting it's open mouth."

 

Sure, but any mask shape could have been used for other powers besides what was chosen.

Which is exactly why I wonder why "Undeath", of all things, got approved.

 

"How is that over-complicating it? You are adding spoken commands, whereas mental commands would already be inherent in literally every single other mask power."

 

Well, I answered this in the quote you're replying to there... I'm not adding the concept of spoken commands. It comes from the idea of Matoran (spoken) being a programming language. And yes, the power has this unique to it (although given functionally infinite powers, undoubtedly there are others that involve speech; it was also partly chosen due to the mask shape's similarity to the Great Rau, which involves speech too; it should be simply seen as rare, not totally unique). Powers generally have things unique or mostly so to them. :P You're just picking out one of them here.

As said, I think that one mask with spoken commands is already stretching it. We have infinite possibilities when it comes to creating powers, so why feel the need to leap outside the established frame of mental commands? The setting is already filled with dozens of esoteric abilities and gear, so why cram vocal programming into a Kanohi?

 

Spoken Matoran would also need to be functionally a protocol for communication and instructions, not a full-fledged programming language, just throwing that out there. Their minds may run on a different setup.

 

"You like to act as if thinking it is more complicated than speaking it"

 

I'm saying it seems more dangerous. As long as you keep your mouth shut you know you're safe. Brains, at least for humans, can slip easily, yanno? You have to add some sort of a mental safeguard to get around this, which other masks like Komau or the normal mental triggering of powers don't have either. You're adding a "safe thoughts" and "final answer thought" idea that is foreign to just about anything, but thinking before speaking is a normal concept, already inherent in the idea that a spoken language is a programming language.

It is not foreign. It already exists in every other mask power. You trigger it mentally, and you shut it off mentally. In-between it runs its script, which in Conjuring's case would be a sophisticated recorder. This does not change whether it's vocal or mental, it still has to distinguish between your own commands and random background noise. I find it safe to say that the people who created the Komau and the Suletu should find it easy to let the user decide which words/thoughts end up being used by the power. It has to do with concentration, and I do not find it much different from what we already have.

 

If the Komau did not have a safeguard, how do we avoid it killing the target by overloading their brain with a stream of commands? How was Kongu able to filter through the stream of voices in his head, if it does not have a built-in "channel tuner"?

 

And if we've established that Matoran speak programming language, and that Toa can learn to activate/deactivate masks on a mental trigger, I don't see why actual voices have to enter the picture. I think you as well

 

"They should not need a mask to do it if they are really speaking a programming language - the commands would already be valid software for the hardware they are running."

 

Not sure what you mean here. You need some kind of input for the spoken programming language to control anything. The Conjuring power is one such input, granting limited control over powers. :)

I mean that if they speak the programming/protocol language, then they already have the syntax ready to go in their system. It should not need to be turned from digital to analog via the sound emitter, then re-recorded, translated and interpreted by the mask. If the Toa can generate a stream of "programming language" vocally, then their bodies should just as easily be able to route that very same (finalized, ready-to-speak) mental stream directly to the mask.

 

"Again, it's personal taste on your part as well."

 

Yes it is... Why do you mention this, since I've already said that? (It was mentioned in the quote this is replying to, too.)

I mention it because you appear to repeatedly bring it up as a point to defend your idea; that it's just my limited personal taste that gets in the way.

 

"But what you feel is inspired by BIONICLE is different from what others feel is inspired by BIONICLE."

 

?? But the thing that inspired it is part of Bionicle!

I have already told you why I think it is not, but OK.

 

Actually, the Mask of Truth evidentally actually does have an always-on listening and will in that sense be activated by hearing speech (and then give the user the sense of whether it's true or not, presumably with a telepathic addition, yes).

I will concede that the Rau works with spoken languages, but the Rode always seemed to me to be based entirely upon analyzing the target's psyche. It sees through disguises as well as lies.

 

The Rau also translates information that exists outside of the user, whereas a power that you trigger yourself (mentally, I want to add yet again) has no reason to take external input when all the input is already formalized in a stream of data within the user him/herself.

 

But even without that, having a unique feature doesn't prove it's bad. The Hau alone makes energy walls, and the Kaukau alone lets you breathe in water, etc. etc. (Unless you get those through Emulation or Conjuring type of powers. :P)

It's all well and good that it is unique, but as I've said I do not like the particular brand of unique you've brought to the table here.

 

Keep in mind too that once the programming is complete, normal mental control takes over until the power wears off.

Which works fine, no objections there.

 

Like I said, it's only taking long because somebody is bringing up lots of attempts to argue against it. But that could be done against any power; would that prove those powers are hard to grasp? No. And as I mentioned, that's happened in the past for some of them. But the basic idea is simple. Just don't overthink it lol.

 

Also works both ways. Katuko is saying his alternative is simpler, but taking many sentences to defend it. (Not that I'd use that argument, I'm just illustrating why the logic doesn't really work.)

Honestly, I don't think your logic works either, which is why we are debating.

 

"The wearer concentrates deeply on a power, which the mask will create for him. This power can only be kept for a short time, and will have inherent weaknesses based upon its design. Care must be taken, for a wrongly designed power may also cause a psychic backlash on the user when triggered. After a power has been used the mask must take time to recharge, and can thus not create a new power for a short while."

 

I can't help but think that it is simpler and more elegant than vocal commands, stating the time duration, forcing the user to speak their own weaknesses, etc. It keeps the power-making aspect, it can still have Trivia flair that mentions that it was inspired by Matoran being a programming language, it can still work on a syntax, you can still have someone who speaks the words out loud to concentrate better, you can still have people who make books of "spells" that work to bring with them.

Edited by Katuko
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
The portrayal in MoL does not differ from any previous portrayals. Tahu looks at the incoming danger, and it gets blocked.

Well, this is my own fault for opening this can of worms, but you're getting into the discussion; I was mainly just pointing out that complicated discussions about this had happened. :) But the portrayals have at least been perceived as differing. That's not your perception, apparently, but it has been others'. One big reason is MNOG makes it look more like a shiny energy radiating that makes things be pushed away like with a magnet, with no defined wall for an impact, while MOL's looks like a wall. The Rahkshi energy projectiles then impact on that wall. But in the MNOG version, while the bubble is up an attack from behind works in one case. This makes it look more like a field in which telekinetic pushing away works if you focus on it rather than focusing to keep a wall up that blocks anything.

 

And discussion has also tried to go into the math of it, though offhand I can only recall one. :shrugs:

 

"Either a distraction or a dud" is... well, pretty bad as far as masks go.

Yeah, and that's intentional, methinks. Or at least Kongu agrees with it. :P But it could still serve a purpose, and the point is its having that downside doesn't make it useless, as it has an upside too. (And if it had no such downside, its ability to summon powerful monsters that would always help you could easily be seen as OP.)

 

 

 

Sure, but any mask shape could have been used for other powers besides what was chosen.

 

Which is exactly why I wonder why "Undeath", of all things, got approved.

 

The power was inspired by Sentrakh who was described as being in a state between life and death. Greg evidentally agreed this connection made sense. But someone could also wonder this about anything; that was my point.

 

"why feel the need to leap outside the established frame of mental commands?"

 

Because the power was inspired by a spoken language being a programming language. :)

 

"It is not foreign. It already exists in every other mask power."

 

I'm talking about your idea to have a mental "safety", if I'm reading it right, to make sure your thinking of the definition first isn't mistaken for (or accidentally used by you as) sending the power. This isn't there in other masks. It could be, but it needn't be, and it's less clearly connected to the original inspiration to the mask. Plus since now it takes a telepath/mind-reader to 'overhear' you defining it, I think it becomes somewhat OP that way. Emulation has a limit to what power it will make and opponents can guess the power based on this. Your way it seems like Conjuring wouldn't have that kind of limit so easily. And if you take away the mental backlash idea to make it even safer, then you really get OP.

 

Appropriate if you make if a Legendary but that wasn't the point of that project at all; it was to make Great and/or Noble powers that would be likely to have Matoran versions on those Matoran's faces. :) And I get that you're adding other limits to reduce how OP it is, but the limits we had already worked and were more consistent with the spoken language concept.

 

"I find it safe to say that the people who created the Komau and the Suletu should find it easy to let the user decide which words/thoughts end up being used by the power."

 

Yes, and those powers aren't nearly as flexible as Conjuring so there's no need for them to have this kind of extra limitation.

 

"If the Komau did not have a safeguard, how do we avoid it killing the target by overloading their brain with a stream of commands? How was Kongu able to filter through the stream of voices in his head, if it does not have a built-in "channel tuner"?"

 

Those are mental-based masks, and the brain has a large capacity to "translate" slightly bad syntax and the like. The idea of a programming language fits more with exactness being necessary IMO.

 

"I don't see why actual voices have to enter the picture"

 

They don't really have to (nor do they have to not...), but we've been over a reason why it helps -- this way enemies can know what power to expect better. You've been mentioning things every mask has, but almost every mask also has some relatively easy way for enemies to tell that, by their shape or in the case of emulation by what powers are around to copy. (Similar for the Faxon, etc.)

 

Although masks can be made in different shapes. Still.

 

"It should not need to be turned from digital to analog via the sound emitter, then re-recorded, translated and interpreted by the mask."

 

We don't know that their brains are digital. Their psychology seems to be akin to ours (which has some features similar to digital but it's more complicated than that). Anyways, this is an assertion, but on what basis do you get to "should"? I think the above reasons support that it should be spoken, if anything.

 

"then their bodies should just as easily be able to route that very same (finalized, ready-to-speak) mental stream directly to the mask."

 

But the problem I saw was not just that it's "just as easy" but "even easier". My idea was more that if you said it wrong, the mask would just not work at all for a while. Greg's addition adds an extra level of danger (which makes a lot of sense). And BTW, implies strongly that it IS a mental command, but being spoken at the same time is a way to tell the mask with no room for doubt at all "this is my final answer". You seem to be missing that. No doubt you would then argue that it's superfluous to have both at once, but that misses that the speaking works as a protective safeguard so that mental "drafting" isn't accidently sent as the final answer. There's no risk at all of it as long as you clamp your jaws shut. :P

 

Another thing is that in our minds, we don't tend to limit how we think only to words. We sometimes just think in the concepts behind the words, without bothering to form complete and proper sentences in our minds. That especially makes sense for mask usage. But we are accustomed to forming sentences that we speak, so it would use familiar neural pathways and minimize the risk this way too.

 

You can look at the speaking aloud as a way to force your mind to be reminded to speak properly/carefully. (And also to require a downside so enemies can hear it, which makes sense since enemies can use the power too; checks and balances.)

 

"I mention it because you appear to repeatedly bring it up as a point to defend your idea; that it's just my limited personal taste that gets in the way."

 

What do you mean by "limited"? I would say different. I bring it up because suggestions, as worded, are raised that there's an actual objective problem with it beyond just personal taste. That was how the wording in the original post I was replying to here looked (hopefully not intentionally, but then I'm advising more careful word choice :)).

 

"I have already told you why I think it is not, but OK."

 

K, it's not debatable that Matoran as a spoken language and programming language is part of Bionicle as produced by LEGO. :)

 

"I will concede that the Rau works with spoken languages, but the Rode always seemed to me to be based entirely upon analyzing the target's psyche."

 

I think they both listen both to words and to thoughts; the Rau seems to read the concepts behind the words to match them to the concepts in the user's mind (and thus the words in the user's mind that are equivalent). The Rode similarly seems to read thoughts and identify the actual ideas people have and whether they match the ideas that are attached in their mind to their words (or likely deeds, yes). Point is, it can tell a spoken lie too.

 

"The Rau also translates information that exists outside of the user"

 

I agree -- and that's because that's what its power is intended for. :) My point was just that it illustrates there can be at least one use for a power operating from spoken speech (without using the mental equiv alone; it doesn't grant mind reading if they don't speak). This opens the there possibly being other uses. In the Rau's case, the use applies to a target, not the user, because its purpose is translation. In Conjuring's case, the use applies to the user, because its purpose is constrained spell-casting based on a spoken programming language.

 

Aaaannnnd... outta time for now...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boidoh, can I ask you for a service?

I've awkwardly clicked on the View Results button and my votes were lost. Can you count them for the final results?

If it's possible, here are the masks for which I wanted to vote : Kadin, Kualsi, Volitak and Sanok.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Boidoh, can I ask you for a service?

I've awkwardly clicked on the View Results button and my votes were lost. Can you count them for the final results?

If it's possible, here are the masks for which I wanted to vote : Kadin, Kualsi, Volitak and Sanok.

I'll just +1 to those four when I decide to close the poll.

  • Upvote 1

Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

Like, Comment, And Subscribe for Nintendo Content - NinBoidoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And discussion has also tried to go into the math of it, though offhand I can only recall one. :shrugs:

The point would be that the mask itself has an simple definition, and all you need to know is that it keeps the user away from harm if they are aware of the incoming attack. The exact details would start falling into technobabble, which is fine for fans to speculate in, but not something I like to see crammed into canon when it's hardly even important. Makes sense?

 

Yeah, and that's intentional, methinks. Or at least Kongu agrees with it. :P But it could still serve a purpose, and the point is its having that downside doesn't make it useless, as it has an upside too.

Remind me, what is the actual upside? :)

 

"why feel the need to leap outside the established frame of mental commands?"

 

Because the power was inspired by a spoken language being a programming language. :)

But as I mentioned, the nature of a programming language is somewhat different from the nature of a language used for communication. There are rules to them both, but if they were speaking and interpreting an actual programming language you'd have to expect that the words they speak would have a direct effect upon the recipient, as the code was run through their hardware.

 

I'm talking about your idea to have a mental "safety", if I'm reading it right, to make sure your thinking of the definition first isn't mistaken for (or accidentally used by you as) sending the power. This isn't there in other masks.

I disagree. You consciously decide which commands to send with a Komau, and you consciously decide how to make your illusions act. If you can make illusions walk and talk while still doing other things, I see no issue in having a more complicated set of instructions be possible - but require greater focus. My version of the Conjuring power does not have the silly weakness of stating powers out loud in detail, but it requires you to stay still and focused on your programming task. It's not something you'd be able to do in the middle of combat, or even on a whim when faced with an entirely unknown situation.

 

It could be, but it needn't be, and it's less clearly connected to the original inspiration to the mask.

The thing is, I don't think it's good to get so hung up on the original inspiration or idea that the resulting mask ends up as just another curiosity to throw on the pile.

 

Plus since now it takes a telepath/mind-reader to 'overhear' you defining it, I think it becomes somewhat OP that way. Emulation has a limit to what power it will make and opponents can guess the power based on this. Your way it seems like Conjuring wouldn't have that kind of limit so easily. And if you take away the mental backlash idea to make it even safer, then you really get OP.

It would still have the mental backlash if you try to exceed your own capabilities. I wish for the mask to be limited due to the time and concentration it takes to create a power. I see the whole "speak out loud" gimmick as unnecessary, programming language or not.

 

Appropriate if you make if a Legendary but that wasn't the point of that project at all; it was to make Great and/or Noble powers that would be likely to have Matoran versions on those Matoran's faces.

The shape could easily have another power, for that matter. Take care to kill your darlings sometimes, as the saying goes. You yourself have a giant list of powers you have thought of, so if one does not work all that well it's not that hard to come up with a different power that could fit the same shape. It could be limited Weather Control, for example, if we are to throw another Kraata power into a mask. The design on the front looks kind of like water droplets.

 

Yes, and those powers aren't nearly as flexible as Conjuring so there's no need for them to have this kind of extra limitation.

Manipulating someone to do your will is not flexible? Is it not mind-based and also dangerous, with inherent limits?

 

"I don't see why actual voices have to enter the picture"

 

They don't really have to (nor do they have to not...), but we've been over a reason why it helps -- this way enemies can know what power to expect better.

And again: Other weaknesses could work just as well from a story balancing perspective.

 

You've been mentioning things every mask has, but almost every mask also has some relatively easy way for enemies to tell that, by their shape or in the case of emulation by what powers are around to copy. (Similar for the Faxon, etc.)

On numerous occasions a character has been caught off-guard by masks, powers and abilities they did not recognize. Heck, some powers are designed to make you undetectable or to strike without the victim noticing. "Seeing the shape" has never been much of a balancing factor, and if you wish to speak of in-character reasoning "telling my enemy what I'm doing" is a very bad idea. The shape is there so that you know which mask you get when you pick it out of a pile of Kanohi, it is not there because people feel the need to inform everyone else of exactly what they can do.

 

"It should not need to be turned from digital to analog via the sound emitter, then re-recorded, translated and interpreted by the mask."

 

We don't know that their brains are digital. Their psychology seems to be akin to ours (which has some features similar to digital but it's more complicated than that). Anyways, this is an assertion, but on what basis do you get to "should"? I think the above reasons support that it should be spoken, if anything.

On the basis that if they are speaking a programming language and also using mentally triggered powers with precision, then they already have the language formalized in their brain. If they speak the same programming language that can be used to make new powers, then they are already using it in some form internally whenever they activate a power.

 

My notion here is the basis for a lot of system development: If the formalization is in place, then the machine should not need to go via a different channel. In this case, in order for the Toa to speak, their mind must already have arranged the words - made up on programming language - in the sentence before it is emitted as sound waves in whatever manner. if the mind can form these words into a sentence and speak them, it should also be perfectly capable of forming them into a sentence and feeding them into the mental power that is waiting to "record".

 

But the problem I saw was not just that it's "just as easy" but "even easier". My idea was more that if you said it wrong, the mask would just not work at all for a while. Greg's addition adds an extra level of danger (which makes a lot of sense). And BTW, implies strongly that it IS a mental command, but being spoken at the same time is a way to tell the mask with no room for doubt at all "this is my final answer". You seem to be missing that.

I am not missing it, I just find it very silly to read a power definition out loud to a device that you otherwise operate mentally. Deep concentration is enough of a downside in my book. It'd be like a trance/meditation, and if you are interrupted the power creation fails.

 

Another thing is that in our minds, we don't tend to limit how we think only to words. We sometimes just think in the concepts behind the words, without bothering to form complete and proper sentences in our minds. That especially makes sense for mask usage. But we are accustomed to forming sentences that we speak, so it would use familiar neural pathways and minimize the risk this way too.

In order for you to speak the sentence, you have formed the words in your brain and decided to vocalize it. "Decide to vocalize it" is identical and easily replaced with "decide to record it" in my book.

 

You can look at the speaking aloud as a way to force your mind to be reminded to speak properly/carefully. (And also to require a downside so enemies can hear it, which makes sense since enemies can use the power too; checks and balances.)

If someone wishes to speak aloud to focus, by all means, let them do so. But I find it silly to make it a required part of the power itself.

 

"I have already told you why I think it is not, but OK."

 

K, it's not debatable that Matoran as a spoken language and programming language is part of Bionicle as produced by LEGO. :)

It is also not debatable that no other mask power in the series requires verbal or somatic components to activate, whereas mental triggers appear on all of them.

 

BIONICLE has also made several questionable decisions in the past, which are debated at length, so I see no problems in questioning this one as well. ;)

 

 

Oh, and I'd still like a link to your game (I usually enjoy RPGs). :)

 

I'd also like to mention that your posts in the EM topics are still pretty messed up from the forum-wide formatting issues we had in the past, so you might want to go through and add some line breaks.

Edited by Katuko
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oh, and I'd still like a link to your game (I usually enjoy RPGs). :)

It's on this blog entry.(Near the top!)

 

It's actually the hardest/most frustrating RPG I've ever tried to play. You have been warned. :P

 

Somewhere in on-topic lands, I don't know, the speaking aspect of the Mask of Conjuring kind of falls under the "why not?" sort of reasoning. I think it would come from a fantasy trope - the wizard has to speak the spell to make it work, he can't just think it. Feels kind of odd in Bionicle where mentally activated powers are a dime a dozen, though. 

 

But then again, the user does mentally activate the power - the power is "to conjure", like the Hau is "to shield". I activate Hau, shield pops up. I activate the Mask of Conjuring, and I can conjure like yon wizard. The part where it gets confusing is the part where I can conjure up a power. For example, I can conjure up a shield, but that should not be confused with having the power of shielding, rightly. But if I conjure up telekinesis...I've just granted myself a power for 15 minutes that would be if I wore a Matatu. Since Matatu can be mentally activated, it seems silly to speak a power into the air to activate something that would be mentally activated normally.

 

Even if you're a wizard.  

 

But you're not really activating the power, you're conjuring it up from the GB's school of Protodermic Wizardry. The functional upside of that is the same as the functional upside of having a wizard around (other than having old smart guys to fight your war :P) - the mask allows you to conjure up a shield around your fortress for 15 minutes to allow everyone to quickly throw together a plan. Or it can conjure the power of Spirit to go spy on your enemies, or the Rode to interrogate an unfortunate prisoner. It makes a ton of sense in a high-fantasy setting, with the usual parallels - spells only activate briefly for the most part.  

 

Except we're in a science fantasy setting, so the programming aspect of it comes in to make it make more sense. But I'm not sure that it needs to be focused on as much as you're making it out - the programming aspect of it isn't really the point IMO, the fantasy parallel is probably more meaningful. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Thanks, but the link in the post is dead.

 

Somewhere in on-topic lands, I don't know, the speaking aspect of the Mask of Conjuring kind of falls under the "why not?" sort of reasoning. I think it would come from a fantasy trope - the wizard has to speak the spell to make it work, he can't just think it. Feels kind of odd in Bionicle where mentally activated powers are a dime a dozen, though.

Yeah, it's like... I don't want a wizard-type power where you speak spell descriptions. I've got that in a lot of other series, and this one has so far worked fine (10 years, plus plus!) with mental triggers only.
  • Upvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

Thanks, but the link in the post is dead.

 

This one should work. It's from this topic. Apparently the BZPower Software Library is winning serious points again.

 

Hope that works out for you - if not, I do have a version that works. I'd have to kick out my save files though, and given how hard that thing is...eh.

 

As for the "no wizards in Bionicle" preference...yeah, I'm not sure it quite fits either. I do think that power is very cool, but not so sure it all fits here. Something for LoTR/Bionicle crossover fanfiction - an idea so good I forgot to think it, especially with all the Simdrillion we're building out so recently. 

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Also, a toa speaking an oral command isn't really much like operating a programming language, unless you have to word everything weirdly and disjointedly?

 

the programming analogy is kinda a bad one, just saying. (the wizard one would be closer, but still makes the mask seem kinda weird compared to every single other, more useful mask. :0)

  • Upvote 4

bnnrimg1.pngbnnrimg2.pngbnnrimg3.pngbnnrimg4.pngbnnrimg5.pngbnnrimg8.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Here are the final results...

 

FIRST PLACE: Calix/Rode

THIRD PLACE: Mask of Conjuring

FOURTH PLACE: Mask of Adaption/Kaukau

 

So I'd assume that the definite three would be the Calix, Rode, and the Mask of Conjuring. We need a new poll to tiebreak the fourth place option...

 

 

  • Upvote 1

Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

Like, Comment, And Subscribe for Nintendo Content - NinBoidoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Happy Mask of Adaption made a comeback :).

 

Otherwise, yeah, I suppose I can live with this. Although Rode still feels out of place, but otherwise, I like it.


Forever remember the Podu


R.I.P. Hahli, Lesovikk, and Ehlek. Died of Green Plastic Syndrome.


Pridaddy will always be with us

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As much as I like those EM masks, I want to use that white Kaukau I have. (But if it goes to a Toa of Stone the mask looks cooler. :P)


Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

Like, Comment, And Subscribe for Nintendo Content - NinBoidoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's possibly too late, but if I can make come more voters from Bionifigs (the French BIONICLE forum whose I'm part of it) here, would you agree to delay the end of the votes, Boidoh?

Edited by Du7734
  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still can't quite get my head around canonizing something that has 14 votes total, and that is only one or two votes above the closest competitor, in a poll with less than 100 votes total. I mean, look at this stuff:

 

Calix/Rode - 17 votes

Conjuring - 16 votes

Kaukau/Adaptation - 14 votes

Pakari/Kadin - 13 votes

Sanok - 12 votes

 

It's like, if maybe two people bring in a friend to vote, it could actually tip the scales again. That is pretty much the opposite of a clear vote result in my mind.

Edited by Katuko
  • Upvote 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's possibly too late, but if I can make come more voters from Bionifigs (the French BIONICLE forum whose I'm part of it) here, would you agree to delay the end of the votes, Boidoh?

I already sent the results to Greg... For the next/ongoing polls, why not. 


Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

Like, Comment, And Subscribe for Nintendo Content - NinBoidoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I still can't quite get my head around canonizing something that has 14 votes total, and that is only one or two votes above the closest competitor, in a poll with less than 100 votes total. I mean, look at this stuff:

 

Calix/Rode - 17 votes

Conjuring - 16 votes

Kaukau/Adaptation - 14 votes

Pakari/Kadin - 13 votes

Sanok - 12 votes

 

It's like, if maybe two people bring in a friend to vote, it could actually tip the scales again. That is pretty much the opposite of a clear vote result in my mind.

Either way there is no sure way of knowing what the winning masks would be.


9HYoRY7.pngKayn's Thought: My hiatus of Bionicle has ended

 

 

                                                                                                 

 

                                                              

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I already sent the results to Greg... For the next/ongoing polls, why not.

You are very trigger-happy with this, are you not?
  • Upvote 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Erm... I thought people said this should go until a week. It's been about 8 days...


Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

Like, Comment, And Subscribe for Nintendo Content - NinBoidoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It's like, if maybe two people bring in a friend to vote, it could actually tip the scales again. That is pretty much the opposite of a clear vote result in my mind.

This was always an issue in the BSS; if there's such a close vote, and small sampling size, can it really be considered a "majority"? I always said no, but there you have it.

 

But a lot of this has to do with the fact that we're deciding four things in a single poll, which is not a particularly effective way of doing things (efficient, maybe, but not effective).

  • Upvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Lol this was very poorly managed, and now the storm is immanent. I agree with Katuko. These results are pretty ambiguous. Anyway, you already spat the results over so whatever. Hopefully the GACFP is considered more in the future :)

  • Upvote 2

                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


***Toa Kyraan***

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It will. These are polls pre-GACFP...


Add me on 3DS: 0516-7750-0068

Add me on Wii U: Boidoh

 

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 4: Never Trust a Snake

"I am Lloyd Garmadon, son of Lord Garmadon." - Lloyd, Episode 44: Corridor of Elders

Like, Comment, And Subscribe for Nintendo Content - NinBoidoh

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay... one more Conjuring reply? :P This really is getting long though. Maaaybe take any more to PM? I only don't this time as I have things to say to multiple people's points. :shrugs:

 

 

"whereas a power that you trigger yourself (mentally, I want to add yet again) has no reason to take external input when all the input is already formalized in a stream of data within the user him/herself."

Again, there are two reasons:

1) To make sure you don't go insane from thinking it wrong and "clicking send too early". :P

2) To ensure opponents can have at least a fair chance of identifying the power you're about to have to help keep it from being OP. I don't get why you keep asking things answered like this already.

Can an alternate version exist? Yeah. And had canonization followed the newer ways back then, maybe that's what would have happened, although I gotta say, I doubt Greg would think it makes sense to take speech away from a power inspired by a spoken programming language. Just seems too convoluted to me. Yeah, we could explain to people, "a programming language that's spoken doesn't HAVE to be spoken", but you remove the need by keeping it closer to the inspiration.


"It's all well and good that it is unique, but as I've said I do not like the particular brand of unique you've brought to the table here."

Do you like most masks? If not, then I guess that could be interesting to discuss, but if so, doesn't it make sense to have a few you don't, so others with different tastes are pleased? :)


 

"The wearer concentrates deeply on a power, which the mask will create for him. This power can only be kept for a short time, and will have inherent weaknesses based upon its design. Care must be taken, for a wrongly designed power may also cause a psychic backlash on the user when triggered. After a power has been used the mask must take time to recharge, and can thus not create a new power for a short while."

I can't help but think that it is simpler and more elegant than vocal commands


Well, I agree on one note -- it's easier to see (and thus takes less explaining) why there would be a psychic backlash. Keep in mind that was Greg's idea, though, and it works either way really, because as soon as you finish the spoken program, the normal mental control system should kick in. Actually might make more sense that the backlash can only happen after speaking it all, in that light. Still, it is admittedly more complex on this point.

But again, closer to the original inspiration.

It isn't really that simpler of a definition than mine, though. And I brought up issues that come up here -- like that "short time" begs the question of how short, and I think Greg would want to answer that. Might not pick 15 mins, but yeah.



BTW, I thought of something I should have added to the legendary idea. I think it probably doesn't work because the GBs probably wanted some Toa to have an option to come up with powers without the somewhat unpredictable (before experimentation) mixing system (assuming they even used that before Kanoka, but we generally think they did), that would solve needs the main powers wouldn't, or that they didn't have those for. In other words, I think this particular power makes more sense in the hands of the heroes (okay on the faces) rather than the normal concept of Legendaries, having just one, and not dealing with more common problems.

Still not a bad idea, though, albeit one almost certainly off-limits for Gen1 canon. :P



"The point would be that the mask itself has an simple definition, and all you need to know is that it keeps the user away from harm if they are aware of the incoming attack. The exact details would start falling into technobabble"

But for that power, simple does the job. Not every power is the same in that way, nor should they be really. Variety. :)

My point was that the logic "you can talk long about details" applies to the Hau, so shouldn't be used as an argument (or not a strong one anyways) against Conjuring. The definition as given tells you all you really need to know. It's a little longer than usual, but given its highly unique power and the risk of that being OP, I think it makes sense in this case.


"not something I like to see crammed into canon when it's hardly even important. Makes sense?"

The analogy breaks down here though. I wasn't using the Hau's possible complexity to say that Conjuring has the same level (no, its definition IS a little more complicated), but as said above. But look at the differences here. In Hau's case, the exact details actually don't make a noticeable practical difference. In Conjuring's case, how short is short, and how can the opponents have a fair chance to know what power's being used, and wow this could be OP so what downsides are there? Those are things I felt needed briefly addressed, and it seems Greg not only agreed, but even added a level of complexity!


"Remind me, what is the actual upside?" [Of Summoning.]

Distraction.

Basically. :shrugs:


"But as I mentioned, the nature of a programming language is somewhat different from the nature of a language used for communication. There are rules to them both, but if they were speaking and interpreting an actual programming language you'd have to expect that the words they speak would have a direct effect upon the recipient, as the code was run through their hardware."

I saw you say this but it's unclear why you felt it was relevant. It doesn't change what I said in the part you quoted -- that the power was inspired by Matoran being a spoken programming language. :) I don't see why "but" is here.

I can only offer the wild guess that you're talking about current real-world programming languages (which wouldn't work like Matoran does), but I presume you wouldn't make that mistake. :shrugs:


 

 

I'm talking about your idea to have a mental "safety", if I'm reading it right, to make sure your thinking of the definition first isn't mistaken for (or accidentally used by you as) sending the power. This isn't there in other masks.


I disagree.

 


I'm guessing you're saying you think it is implied, but I'm saying, it's not stated in the definitions. Sure, a glitchy version could happen and that could cause mental backlash, but it would be reading this from whatever stores the program in the mask, not from the user's mind. The user doesn't have to send instructions for how the power of the Komau works; they just have to activate it and send thoughts to a chosen target. That's what I'm saying is different. There's no evidence they can think an unclear thought and go insane or anything. The possible glitch would happen entirely in the mask... and whether it would even cause psychic backlash... I'm just agreeing hypothetically that it might; we don't know, as far as I know. :shrugs:



"My version of the Conjuring power does not have the silly weakness of stating powers out loud in detail, but it requires you to stay still and focused on your programming task."

I know, but I'm saying, isn't it really arbitrary which of these is used? Just as that alone, I mean. I do think there's a real difference, though, in that opponents have a fairer chance to know what power you're about to have if spoken. If they just see you concentrating a lot with that shape on your face as they approach to attack, they'll know at least to expect the unexpected, but it would give the user an edge that spoken wouldn't (assuming they were close enough to hear it).


"It's not something you'd be able to do in the middle of combat, or even on a whim when faced with an entirely unknown situation."

Depends on the situation/combat.



"The thing is, I don't think it's good to get so hung up on the original inspiration or idea"

Alright... why? *reads on...*

"that the resulting mask ends up as just another curiosity to throw on the pile."

I... dunno what to make of that, man. :P Well, is this about the Legendary thing? Hm... could you clarify?

I don't see it as "getting hung up on." :shrugs:


"I see the whole "speak out loud" gimmick as unnecessary, programming language or not."

But you left out spoken here, and I don't think something that can have tactical disadvantages really counts as a gimmick (at least not when having a downside is intentional to keep from being too OP).

"It could be limited Weather Control, for example, if we are to throw another Kraata power into a mask. The design on the front looks kind of like water droplets."

Yeah, could have worked. I was focused more on its looking "gooey" so "flexible/malleable", and the eyes' similarity to Translation, a power about speaking.


"Manipulating someone to do your will is not flexible? Is it not mind-based and also dangerous, with inherent limits?"

Compared to being able to do all of that, and any other power you know the spell to, obviously not quite that flexible no. :P


"On numerous occasions a character has been caught off-guard by masks, powers and abilities they did not recognize."

I agree -- and this wouldn't be foolproof. If you're less than 15 minutes away from where you intend to use it but out of earshot, they still won't know. I'm not saying it's absolute, I'm saying it seems like this way identifying the power is more likely, and it is usually fairly likely, so I felt that mattered. To be fair, since it was inspired by spoken language, it didn't occur to me to make it silent/mental, but then I probably would have rejected it for being too distant from the original inspiration.



"On the basis that if they are speaking a programming language and also using mentally triggered powers with precision, then they already have the language formalized in their brain."

I almost didn't split this quote up, but just lemme pause here real quick -- this part at least already fits with "draft in brain, final answer spoken" which is normal for people anyways so easy to relate to.

"If they speak the same programming language that can be used to make new powers, then they are already using it in some form internally whenever they activate a power."

So are you saying that when they levitate, in your view they're actually "mind-speaking" the definition of the power? Or some simple trigger for it as a word?

I don't recall that ever being stated. I always saw it as more of a feeling, like if you start peddling a bike, you don't think, "Peddle!" (necessarily lol).

I would agree if you just mean that they have that knowledge, though. But either way, it needs translated from their desires in the situation; their feeling of wanting the power then and there, and the language. As this normally follows the neural pathways for speech (or writing), it does make sense to require their final answers to use those pathways, and another normal pathway (mind-speak) is already available for drafting. In humans we can relate to having the two of these. Mind-drafting a whole sentence and then mind-speaking it as a final answer... that's possible I guess, but seems more out there to me. :shrugs:

Brains can get mixed up so easily, yanno? Just seems like one kind of "speaking in your mind" would be easy to accidentally use as another.

Probably just bias talking, I dunno, but doesn't seem like it to me. :lookaround:


"My notion here is the basis for a lot of system development: If the formalization is in place, then the machine should not need to go via a different channel."

Are we still talking about the backlash for errors version? That was in your suggested definition at end of previous post, so I'm thinking yes. In that case, doesn't there have to be a "send" channel, whatever form it takes? I thought we had agreed to that and you were just saying a secondary mental pathway, rather than mental then spoken. This wording makes me wonder if we're talking about requiring concentration on one version and taking away the risk of backlash if wrong. (Both are valid, just asking for clarification. :))

"In this case, in order for the Toa to speak, their mind must already have arranged the words - made up on programming language - in the sentence before it is emitted as sound waves in whatever manner. if the mind can form these words into a sentence and speak them, it should also be perfectly capable of forming them into a sentence and feeding them into the mental power that is waiting to "record"."

Yeah, but again, isn't it easier to accidentally do this before you're sure? Like I say, the way it is, clamp your mouth shut and you're guaranteed to be safe (basically... barring being mind-controlled etc. :P).

I'm still not seeing a basis for "should" here as this doesn't deal with the risk of backlash issue. Seems to me that changes the should.


"I am not missing it, I just find it very silly to read a power definition out loud to a device that you otherwise operate mentally."

I just can't imagine a Toa agreeing with this when it's their brain on the line. :P

"It is also not debatable that no other mask power in the series requires verbal or somatic components to activate"

I don't really see it as activating it, but as deciding what happens after activating. The Rau is activated mentally, but what results comes from speech. Again, yes, there are differences here, but I've shown reasons why. And again, you can make an alternate version and adjust all the factors to have enough downsides too, but then 1) less like the inspiration and 2) if they're about the same anyways, no reason to say others can't like it (I'm still presuming you aren't agreeing with that post, though).



"BIONICLE has also made several questionable decisions in the past, which are debated at length, so I see no problems in questioning this one as well. ;)"

That's fine, but that's changing the subject; I was just saying it's part of Bionicle.

If we were to go there, though, undoubtedly "'robots' on a tropical island" and space canisters would come up. :P It's consistent with those things, especially for the original concept of the giant robot.

Programming language as spoken fits the part robotic, part nature-feeling theme of Bionicle pretty well IMO. And it makes sense the GBs would think of this sort of thing.




Can you please PM me about the off-topic stuff? :)




fishers:

"I think it would come from a fantasy trope - the wizard has to speak the spell to make it work, he can't just think it."

To be fair, in HP that was only true for beginners. But that's just one.



Kat:

"Yeah, it's like... I don't want a wizard-type power where you speak spell descriptions. I've got that in a lot of other series"

I'm sure we don't need to go over the massive list of things lots of series have that Bionicle has and has from the start in many cases. But actually (although I'm sure it's not totally unique), the "what's behind it is actually a sort of magical computer-substance" thing IS different from the usual, and I liked that about it. :shrugs:



RL:

"Also, a toa speaking an oral command isn't really much like operating a programming language, unless you have to word everything weirdly and disjointedly?"

That's a valid interpretation if somebody likes it. I saw it as adapted to the language as it's spoken in modern times, as Translation would be able to do. Either way, they are normally speaking that programming language, so yes, it is like that.

"the programming analogy is kinda a bad one, just saying."

It's not an analogy; it's confirmed and that was used for the power. :)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If I may throw tinder on the Conjuring debate; It's not supposed to be a in-combat mask. Just like the Rau, or Kaukau. I picture it more as a way to solve out of combat problems. Say we need to get to the top of a cliff. The Miru wearer can levitate up, the Kadin wearer can fly, the Growth wearer can grow, grab and shrink to normal, but very few other masks could do so. Perhaps one of them could carry a teammate. The Mask of Conjuring allows the user to state "Creation of tunnels large and stable enough to allow five Toa to follow the original digger, but unable to dig through living material or solid chunks of rock." and get all his teammates there at once.

  • Upvote 3

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally I think a Kakama, a Mask of Rahi Control and a Mask of Adaptation would be the most useful in an icy landscape. That said, a Toa of Ice wouldn't always operate in such terrain, so this point may be void, but those are my votes.


Making brickfilms since 2007.

Check out my latest animations:

,
, and Avengers Tower!

The first episode of Nuva,

Magnetic Mania, is now live! Check it out!

burning_logo.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Greg just responded to the poll.

 

 

ToaIhu wrote:

 
Boidoh wrote:

Hello Greg.

I've returned with the results from the polls for the Toa Mangai Kanohi. For the first poll, the Kakama poll, 64 members voted and 65% of the voters agreed that they wanted the mask to be known. The result was that the majority of people want the 
Toa Mangai of Earth 
to wear the Kanohi Kakama. 

In the Toa of Ice Kanohi poll, 95 members voted. The top winners were the 
Calix, Rode and the Mask of Conjuring. 
Those were the mask which the majority of the community wanted 3 of the 4 Toa of Ice to wear.  The foruth place had to be done using a tiebreaker poll. 

In the tiebreaker poll between the Kaukau, Mask of Adaption, and the Kadin, 68 members voted and 47% of the voters wanted the 4th Toa of Ice to wear the 
Kanohi Kaukau
.

Do you approve?

Thanks for your time and have a Merry Christmas.

Buried again.

My only qualm is the Rode, because I thought we had limited how many of those were worn in the MU.

 

So all of it is now canon except the Rode. By the looks of it the next most-voted was the Sanok, so should we take that to Greg as the final Toa Mangai of Ice's mask power?


Making brickfilms since 2007.

Check out my latest animations:

,
, and Avengers Tower!

The first episode of Nuva,

Magnetic Mania, is now live! Check it out!

burning_logo.jpg

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Kadin. Adaption. Which of those had the higher result in the tiebreaker? That's the one we submit.


:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"I believe he explicitly said the Vahi could not time travel, because that's when he was first asked about time travel."

He said no users exist who have enough mental concentration to make it time travel, so it's both, actually. But the mask itself has the capacity (and he confirmed that if it broke, Vakama's description of what the released time energies would do is accurate, and that included chaotic time travel).

 

Wait wait wait you mean that time travel in the BIONICLE is possible?! I knew that the Vahi was hard to control with eve a strong mind but your telling me is you had a mind clear enough and focused enough you can pull it off?!

 

Please tell me I read that wrong. I thought it was a rule. You can't time travel you can go to other worlds and it be a faster or slower flow there so you end far in the past or far in the future.

 

If thats true then I might have some ideas. 

 

Also I voted for Kakama, Emulation, and Conjuring.

 

If my little out burst about the Vahi is too off topic we can talk on it in our story discussion PMs.  :D


Bionicle is amazing.

Legends Never Die!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It is a rule. The fact that no mind existed that could pull it off was how the rule was followed with the Vahi. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.
Note: Your post will require moderator approval before it will be visible.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.


×
×
  • Create New...