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Kanohi Dragon vs. Mask of Rahi Control


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I have seen in many of the Kanohi canonization topics arguments for and against the Mask of Rahi Control to be included in the list for potential Kanohi.

 

As suggested by bonesiii here, in this topic we will discuss and come up with an argument that we can present to Greg Farshtey on LMB.

 

I also want to include some quick-links from BS01 for people that want to be a part of this debate:

 

I personally think it would be fine that one of them has the mask, since it's described to work better on insects and that some Rahi have the willpower to resist control, evidence of this seems to be shown in Dwellers In Darkness, since there's no mention of Kualus using the mask during the Godzilla Kanohi Dragon & Tahtorak situation.

 

Happy debating!

Edited by Archon~
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                      Archon                      


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I've laid out most of my points elsewhere. In DiD, the Toa Hagah battle against two enormous Rahi, one of them being the Kanohi Dragon, and defeat them without the apparent use of the Mask of Rahi Control. So it wouldn't necessarily have an effect on the outcome of the battle with the Toa Mangai.

 

However, on the flip-side, there's clearly some very different battle conditions (why did it take the Hagah only a few days vs a whole month for the Mangai?), so it's hard to draw a perfect analogy. But I think it's applicable enough, especially since the Mangai were said to have assembled specifically to deal with the Dragon; the Hagah didn't really have the luxury of knowing which mask was most effective since they were literally the only ones for the job, but you'd think the Mangai would try and pick applicable powers (since, y'know, they got FOUR Toa of Ice!).

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I think of it like this: Rahi with a stronger willpower can resist total control, but they would still notice the effects. The mask doesn't go, "Oh, this Rahi's too strong. Better quit now." No, if you try to exert control, it has to turn its attention towards resisting, meaning while the Toa may not be able to command its actions, they can still distract it enough to allow the other Toa to subdue it. 
Pretty simple, really.

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I've laid out most of my points elsewhere. In DiD, the Toa Hagah battle against two enormous Rahi, one of them being the Kanohi Dragon, and defeat them without the apparent use of the Mask of Rahi Control. So it wouldn't necessarily have an effect on the outcome of the battle with the Toa Mangai.

 

However, on the flip-side, there's clearly some very different battle conditions (why did it take the Hagah only a few days vs a whole month for the Mangai?), so it's hard to draw a perfect analogy. But I think it's applicable enough, especially since the Mangai were said to have assembled specifically to deal with the Dragon; the Hagah didn't really have the luxury of knowing which mask was most effective since they were literally the only ones for the job, but you'd think the Mangai would try and pick applicable powers (since, y'know, they got FOUR Toa of Ice!).

To add to the difficulty of the analogy, you could argue that the Toa Hagah were quicker due to the fact that they were an elite team that has been together for a looong time, while the Mangai (seemingly) just came together and were probably fairly inexperienced with working with each other? :shrugs:

 

I think of it like this: Rahi with a stronger willpower can resist total control, but they would still notice the effects. The mask doesn't go, "Oh, this Rahi's too strong. Better quit now." No, if you try to exert control, it has to turn its attention towards resisting, meaning while the Toa may not be able to command its actions, they can still distract it enough to allow the other Toa to subdue it. 

Pretty simple, really.

That actually makes sense, on more mentally powerful Rahi it's more of an annoyance, or sort of "buzzing sound inside of head", rather than actually controling them.

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                      Archon                      


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"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


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I think it's probably worth posting Greg's opinion on the matter.

 

 

The way I look at it is that it could work on the KD, and he simply did not use it. In any battle, especially in comics, the hero might four or five ways they could subdue the villain. They don't use the same one every time. If Kualus was in the middle of a real melee, with destruction all around, he may not have been able to focus sufficiently to use the mask correctly. He may not have wanted to risk being distracted and the KD suddenly "coming to" and attacking his team.

I see nothing anywhere to indicate the mask would not work on the KD, I think it was a case that Kualus chose not to use it or simply thought doing something else would be more effective. I think you can look at the masks worn by the Nuva and see plenty of instances where they could have used their powers to deal with a situation, but didn't ... in the same way that there are instances where Superman could use his strength to win a battle, but has used heat vision or super breath instead.

 

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I've laid out most of my points elsewhere. In DiD, the Toa Hagah battle against two enormous Rahi, one of them being the Kanohi Dragon, and defeat them without the apparent use of the Mask of Rahi Control. So it wouldn't necessarily have an effect on the outcome of the battle with the Toa Mangai.

 

However, on the flip-side, there's clearly some very different battle conditions (why did it take the Hagah only a few days vs a whole month for the Mangai?), so it's hard to draw a perfect analogy. But I think it's applicable enough, especially since the Mangai were said to have assembled specifically to deal with the Dragon; the Hagah didn't really have the luxury of knowing which mask was most effective since they were literally the only ones for the job, but you'd think the Mangai would try and pick applicable powers (since, y'know, they got FOUR Toa of Ice!).

To add to the difficulty of the analogy, you could argue that the Toa Hagah were quicker due to the fact that they were an elite team that has been together for a looong time, while the Mangai (seemingly) just came together and were probably fairly inexperienced with working with each other? :shrugs:

 

Or maybe the rest of their masks are just really overpowered and made the battle easier? =P. No one battle is the same, but at least we can try and find some similarities.

 

I think it's probably worth posting Greg's opinion on the matter.

 

The way I look at it is that it could work on the KD, and he simply did not use it. In any battle, especially in comics, the hero might four or five ways they could subdue the villain. They don't use the same one every time. If Kualus was in the middle of a real melee, with destruction all around, he may not have been able to focus sufficiently to use the mask correctly. He may not have wanted to risk being distracted and the KD suddenly "coming to" and attacking his team.

I see nothing anywhere to indicate the mask would not work on the KD, I think it was a case that Kualus chose not to use it or simply thought doing something else would be more effective. I think you can look at the masks worn by the Nuva and see plenty of instances where they could have used their powers to deal with a situation, but didn't ... in the same way that there are instances where Superman could use his strength to win a battle, but has used heat vision or super breath instead.

 

Six Toa against two enormous Rahi when it previously took eleven of them for one? I'm... skeptical that Kualus would simply choose NOT to use his mask power, when it's very clearly the most effective tool he could have, but I guess it'll boil down to a case of "what works for the story".

 

That said, wouldn't the opposite also apply? Especially for support characters (like the Toa of Green, although apparently not him anymore), who are busy focused on the non-combat aspects, they perhaps wouldn't have the opportunity to use their masks, but it wouldn't mean they didn't have it; again, a direction for the story, if not the only one available.

Edited by Dorek
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I think it's probably worth posting Greg's opinion on the matter.

 

The way I look at it is that it could work on the KD, and he simply did not use it. In any battle, especially in comics, the hero might four or five ways they could subdue the villain. They don't use the same one every time. If Kualus was in the middle of a real melee, with destruction all around, he may not have been able to focus sufficiently to use the mask correctly. He may not have wanted to risk being distracted and the KD suddenly "coming to" and attacking his team.

I see nothing anywhere to indicate the mask would not work on the KD, I think it was a case that Kualus chose not to use it or simply thought doing something else would be more effective. I think you can look at the masks worn by the Nuva and see plenty of instances where they could have used their powers to deal with a situation, but didn't ... in the same way that there are instances where Superman could use his strength to win a battle, but has used heat vision or super breath instead.

 

Six Toa against two enormous Rahi when it previously took eleven of them for one? I'm... skeptical that Kualus would simply choose NOT to use his mask power, when it's very clearly the most effective tool he could have, but I guess it'll boil down to a case of "what works for the story".

 

That said, wouldn't the opposite also apply? Especially for support characters (like the Toa of Green, although apparently not him anymore), who are busy focused on the non-combat aspects, they perhaps wouldn't have the opportunity to use their masks, but it wouldn't mean they didn't have it; again, a direction for the story, if not the only one available.

 

That is a good point, however one should keep in mind that both of these Rahi were probably well exhausted and tired from fighting each other (and avoiding becoming mountain food), and that maybe a team of 6 experienced elite Toa would have been just enough to finish off the job? Maybe both of the Rahi were so hyper-focused on each other that the MoRC couldn't even get to them if Kualus attempted to use it? Really, there are so many hypotheticals, but Greg seems to have stated his, and I think we should respect that, and point out the reasons why we think the MoRC wouldn't have worked. I've listed a few, and so have you, Dorek. :)

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                      Archon                      


***


"For one to truly feel alive, the person must kill oneself a little bit each and every day."


 


Check out my MOC, one of the new generation of Toa on Spherus Magna!


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Perhaps combining my idea with Dorek's? 

 Both Rahi are already tired from fighting each other. We know the Tahtorak has some limited intelligence (maybe not much more than Krekka), and so would have been easier to reason with, and harder for the MoRC to work on. We don't know how the KD thinks, so it could be far less intelligent, thus making it easier for the mask to work.

 

Also, remember that the Toa Hagah were once Rahaga, and spent much of their time rescuing and communicating with Rahi. This is their area of specialty, and they have experience that the Mangai would most likely never have had.

 

So, here we go: Rahi tired from fighting each other. Use mask on KD to provide that buzzing mental interference to distract it. Tahtorak subdues the KD with help from the Toa (Kanohi Dragon page, BS01), and the Hagah use their experience with Rahi to calm him down. When that didn't work, they resort to using Bomonga's Mask of Growth to knock him out, and then Pouks did his thing with the stone bonds (Tahtorak page, BS01).

 

Plausible? 

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