How Makuta infected Mata-Nui

[The 1st Shadow]

 

 

And there wasn't time between the GC and his being protocaged for him to explore anything beyond what he would already know. Plus, at that time he was having the mental struggle with Nidhiki and Krekka who he had absorbed. He wouldn't likely be making any brilliant innovations in that short time; only after that settled down while sitting there in the protocage.

True, but I meant during his year and a half as Dume. He could have explored then, made some discoveries, and made the connection later, which I guess kinda lines up with what you're saying. 

 

Actually I think that would be the time he would least want to do any unauthorized exploring. Maintaining a cover identity would supersede any knowledge-acquiring concerns.

 

Dume lived in the Coliseum. The Core Processor was under the Coliseum. In the guise of Dume, no one would have questioned Teridax wandering around what was basically his own basement once in a while.

[bonesiii]

True, but I meant during his year and a half as Dume. He could have explored then, made some discoveries, and made the connection later, which I guess kinda lines up with what you're saying.

I suppose, but this seems less likely than before, when he was the Makuta assigned to Metru Nui. As Dume, he probably had to spend a lot of time playing the role, if not all of it. As himself, since he didn't spend much time there anyways, being sighted there before and after starting explorations wouldn't be that odd, and not being seen for a while in between those sightings wouldn't be odd either (or he could come in some random disguise or teleport into tunnels to not be seen at all).

 

But I don't think it's very plausible that he figured out the Core Processor from explorations, ever, because there were likely security systems to prevent access to that area. Too risky, really.

 

Anyways, what we were told is that Tren Krom gave them basically complete knowledge of the universe around them. The basic idea is so simple there's really no reason he would fail to get it across. Complex details like how to raise those crystalline pillars in the Silver Sea would take MORE time to get across. So I don't see any room canonically for him not to know, and there's no reason for him not to, given his personality of obsession and his original goal being about Matoran, not endless ambition as a conquerer in general.

 

 

In the guise of Dume, no one would have questioned Teridax wandering around what was basically his own basement once in a while.

But the time period in question is very short, and there was so much to explore. Unless you think he got super lucky early on (both in finding the core or some clear hint to the core, and in not getting blasted to smithereens by security systems), he'd basically have no time to pretend to be Dume. By contrast, before he started that role he had millenia after millenia of time, so why wait until playing Dume?

 

The fact that Dume is in the Coliseum seems irrelevant, since before taking his place, Makuta could go there too.

 

You could get around this maybe, though, by having Dumakuta assign many Vahki to explore remotely for him. But again, you're creating an unneccesary gap in his knowledge that seems clearly contradicted by what we were told, and then having a theory to patch the gap. It makes more sense to not make the gap in the first place, and look at his personality to understand why the knowledge already being there isn't a problem.

Edited January 22, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

 

True, but I meant during his year and a half as Dume. He could have explored then, made some discoveries, and made the connection later, which I guess kinda lines up with what you're saying.

I suppose, but this seems less likely than before, when he was the Makuta assigned to Metru Nui. As Dume, he probably had to spend a lot of time playing the role, if not all of it. As himself, since he didn't spend much time there anyways, being sighted there before and after starting explorations wouldn't be that odd, and not being seen for a while in between those sightings wouldn't be odd either (or he could come in some random disguise or teleport into tunnels to not be seen at all).

 

But I don't think it's very plausible that he figured out the Core Processor from explorations, ever, because there were likely security systems to prevent access to that area. Too risky, really.

 

Wouldn't the presence of security systems be a good sign that he's on the right track? Also, remember that Miserix teleported himself and the six Toa Hagah and Zaktan into the CP fully intact, albeit after the Toa had begun following the path to its location. If Miserix could do it, Teridax should have had no trouble teleporting through security on his own.

 

Anyways, what we were told is that Tren Krom gave them basically complete knowledge of the universe around them. The basic idea is so simple there's really no reason he would fail to get it across. Complex details like how to raise those crystalline pillars in the Silver Sea would take MORE time to get across. So I don't see any room canonically for him not to know, and there's no reason for him not to, given his personality of obsession and his original goal being about Matoran, not endless ambition as a conquerer in general.

 

 

In the guise of Dume, no one would have questioned Teridax wandering around what was basically his own basement once in a while.

But the time period in question is very short, and there was so much to explore. Unless you think he got super lucky early on (both in finding the core or some clear hint to the core, and in not getting blasted to smithereens by security systems), he'd basically have no time to pretend to be Dume. By contrast, before he started that role he had millenia after millenia of time, so why wait until playing Dume?

 

The fact that Dume is in the Coliseum seems irrelevant, since before taking his place, Makuta could go there too.

 

You could get around this maybe, though, by having Dumakuta assign many Vahki to explore remotely for him. But again, you're creating an unneccesary gap in his knowledge that seems clearly contradicted by what we were told, and then having a theory to patch the gap. It makes more sense to not make the gap in the first place, and look at his personality to understand why the knowledge already being there isn't a problem.

 

Yes, it would be a rather short time period, but when you consider that the Hagah found the tunnels in a matter of hours after being told only that their destination was below the Coliseum, again, it wouldn't be hard for Teridax to figure it out on his own.

 

I had considered the idea of the Vahki, and that could work, too.

 

True, that the universe being inside a giant would be a simple enough explanation, but how would you take to it if you learned that Earth wasn't really a planet orbiting a star alongside a handful of others, but was instead part of some massive entity, and the whole fact of that had been covered up by higher authorities for years? Mutran was already insane, and given that he only glimpsed TK's mind, I question exactly how much detail Teridax would have felt comfortable about trusting on the other Makuta's word alone.

 

You're right, there doesn't need to be a gap, but it wouldn't change much of anything if there were. Sometimes unnecessary circumstances happen for no reason. It's how things work. True, that it doesn't have to be the case here, but the possibility is there.

[bonesiii]

Wouldn't the presence of security systems be a good sign that he's on the right track?

Sure, but it doesn't do you any good if you get killed by them. (Of course, the Vahki idea fixes that. )

 

And again, Greg said he thought of the idea while in the protocage, not just before it. He wasn't exploring or sending out Vahki at the time; he didn't get new intel then. Your theory is close to having the right timing, but IMO not close enough.

 

Also, remember that Miserix teleported himself and the six Toa Hagah and Zaktan into the CP fully intact, albeit after the Toa had begun following the path to its location.

I don't recall the teleportation (although my retelling is after this point chronologically now, it's in the Bara Magna plot and this part will be checked for a catch-up chapter coming up for MU events since the takeover), but taking that as a given for now, it actually seems to disprove the idea that Teridax only later figured out where it was, because Zaktan led them there, from intel he got from plans Teridax made that Zaktan saw. Teridax thus had to know where it was already, if I'm understanding you right. (That Miserix would extrapolate the the endpoint from Zaktan's statements or thoughts? I do recall this part of the story being very confusing, though.)

 

(Also, wasn't that after Teridax had already defeated the security? Or at least snuck past it in gaseous form, which he wouldn't want to do before he had a clear plan, most likely? He could have disabled it, because I think that story said that he wanted them to come.)

 

how would you take to it if you learned that Earth wasn't really a planet orbiting a star alongside a handful of others, but was instead part of some massive entity, and the whole fact of that had been covered up by higher authorities for years?

Probably about like I described for Teridax (though I wouldn't be thinking about conquering anything anyways, so I'm a bad analogy ). Most likely people would see the nature of this entity as inherent to it, not something that it's easy to imagine you can take over. I think Teridax saw it as a crazy complication in his desire to take Mata Nui down, and probably wouldn't think much about it beyond that.

 

I do think the idea COULD have occurred to him, and as I said, I originally assumed it did, but after thinking it over more carefully, I've realized that taking it as obvious is probably only because the story happened to go there, so we're used to the idea in hindsight. Teridax wouldn't have that benefit. It would be one possibility buried in gobs of details about the machinery of what Mutran told him about, probably an obscure detail it would take a lot of analysis to bring out as useful in such a way.

 

As to Mutran's state, I take it as a period of time of listening to him and writing down observations and piecing it together, not something he instantly learned, but 1) it wouldn't take more than a year or so, certainly not long enough to put it at the time of the protocage, and 2) Mutran's insanity is often exaggerated. He was actually almost completely coherent, as seen both in his 2008 portrayal and his writing of the Mutran Chronicles. He was nothing like Vezon, for example.

 

Also, I'm not talking about a total leap of trust, if you will (a trust fall lol?) -- the many less dangerous details Mutran described being found to work just as he said would make the fear that he was wrong about the Core very unlikely.

Edited January 22, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Wouldn't the presence of security systems be a good sign that he's on the right track?

Sure, but it doesn't do you any good if you get killed by them. (Of course, the Vahki idea fixes that. )

 

Also, remember that Miserix teleported himself and the six Toa Hagah and Zaktan into the CP fully intact, albeit after the Toa had begun following the path to its location.

I don't recall the teleportation (although my retelling is after this point chronologically now, it's in the Bara Magna plot and this part will be checked for a catch-up chapter coming up for MU events since the takeover), but taking that as a given for now, it actually seems to disprove the idea that Teridax only later figured out where it was, because Zaktan led them there, from intel he got from plans Teridax made that Zaktan saw. Teridax thus had to know where it was already, if I'm understanding you right. (That Miserix would extrapolate the the endpoint from Zaktan's statements or thoughts? I do recall this part of the story being very confusing, though.)

 

(Also, wasn't that after Teridax had already defeated the security? Or at least snuck past it in gaseous form, which he wouldn't want to do before he had a clear plan, most likely? He could have disabled it, because I think that story said that he wanted them to come.)

 

 

Ah, I found the exact words. You're right, there was no teleport, but it sounds like the only real "security measures" was the lava and magnetic walls.

 

 

After what felt like hours of travel, the tunnel at last came to a stop. It ended in a mid-sized chamber, lined with sophisticated machinery. But that wasn’t what captured the attention of the Hagah. No, they were focused on the two corpses in the room.

 

 

But, why would he willingly invite six Toa, a mutated snake, and a vengeful Makuta who was easily his equal in power right into the very heart  (and most sensitive part) of his operation? If he had the power to do so, wouldn't he do everything he could to keep them out?

 

 

I forgot about Zaktan's purpose in leading them there, so I guess you're probably right. It's always the most obscure little details that you forget at the wrong moment, isn't it?

[bonesiii]

But, why would he willingly invite six Toa, a mutated snake, and a vengeful Makuta who was easily his equal in power right into the very heart  (and most sensitive part) of his operation?

I'd suggest re-reading the scene, because I'm pretty sure that's what it described. I could be misremembering and assuming the obvious -- which would be that he was way too powerful for that to be a risk -- though.

 

Also, I was thinking more of the earlier scene of Teridax's antidermis traveling down into the Core before the takeover, not the Hagah/etc. later. But I forget the wording, exactly.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

But, why would he willingly invite six Toa, a mutated snake, and a vengeful Makuta who was easily his equal in power right into the very heart  (and most sensitive part) of his operation?

I'd suggest re-reading the scene, because I'm pretty sure that's what it described. I could be misremembering and assuming the obvious -- which would be that he was way too powerful for that to be a risk -- though.

 

Also, I was thinking more of the earlier scene of Teridax's antidermis traveling down into the Core before the takeover, not the Hagah/etc. later. But I forget the wording, exactly.

 

It could be that he was 1) still trying to orient himself within the workings of the machine, and 2) the GSR hadn't been brought to life yet, meaning some of the systems were already offline.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

Speaking of security measures concerning Zaktan and Co., would not a lot of the security systems have been destroyed/deactivated by the Great Cataclysm? Isn't that how those two Tall Agori died in the first place; or did they die from something else?

 

And a theory about Teridax allowing his new-found home to have such deadly visitors: he is very prideful, and probably just wanted to show himself off.   After attaining godly power, he appeared to have lost his mind to power and his detailed thinking from before appeared to go kapoot. If I am wrong about this, please tell me.

[bonesiii]

Speaking of security measures concerning Zaktan and Co., would not a lot of the security systems have been destroyed/deactivated by the Great Cataclysm?

Possible.

 

Isn't that how those two Tall Agori died in the first place; or did they die from something else?

You're referring to the two dead Glatorian pilots? They died during or just after the giant's original launch. Why they died is unclear. Many theorize Velika.

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

 

Speaking of security measures concerning Zaktan and Co., would not a lot of the security systems have been destroyed/deactivated by the Great Cataclysm?

Possible.

 

Isn't that how those two Tall Agori died in the first place; or did they die from something else?

You're referring to the two dead Glatorian pilots? They died during or just after the giant's original launch. Why they died is unclear. Many theorize Velika.

 

 

I don't think the race was ever titled 'Glatorian', but rather that was their occupation (if I am wrong feel free to correct me).

(In my fanon/head canon I have the Agori being separated into Short and Tall racial-variants.)

[bonesiii]

They are called Glatorian, but only on Bara Magna (at least pre-reformation) after the arena system was set up; those two wouldn't have heard of the term. They also weren't called Agori, though. The original term hasn't been revealed (due to the legal hassle of getting words approved), but "warrior class" has been used, or just "warriors" (at least on BS01). Out-story, though, Greg and fans just call them Glatorian for convenience.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

And a theory about Teridax allowing his new-found home to have such deadly visitors: he is very prideful, and probably just wanted to show himself off.   After attaining godly power, he appeared to have lost his mind to power and his detailed thinking from before appeared to go kapoot. If I am wrong about this, please tell me.

The problem with this is that the robot hadn't been awakened yet. Terry didn't have full power yet when the Hagah visited. He was still just inhabiting the basic machinery--he hadn't fully taken control of the robot because its systems weren't fully online. He knew it was going to happen in a matter of hours/days, yes, but he hadn't attained his godlike power yet. Yes, the basic systems of the Core Processor amplified his power, to an extent, but his Plan was still being carried out in Karda Nui.

 

Other than that one particular detail, you're pretty much correct.  Perhaps his confidence that the Plan was nearing completion is what made him so prideful in that instance.

Edited January 28, 2015 by ~T1S~