Mask of Undeath: Completely Useless?

[bonesiii]

I did think afterward that that wording about shock was unwise, but figured you were replying so rapidfire, better to see if you'd understand rather than try to edit (as my computer is acting... sluggish ( )... right now... It didn't like opening the 100-page EM guide PDF while having the massive finished Part 9 of my retelling open lol). Anywho, I said "shock" because your earlier wording made it sound like any "surprise" or fear, the moment you begin dying, makes it impossible from then on, versus medical shock. Shock is also used nontechnically like that, but yeah.

 

It would have been better to say that you'd made it sound like any "shock" due to sudden extreme danger automatically turns into medical shock. The point is, your assumption about that doesn't work, as cases like soldiers trained to handle such situations show. That's why I brought up experience earlier, etc.

Edited November 7, 2015 by bonesiii

[The 1st Shadow]

 

It would have been better to say that you'd made it sound like any "shock" due to sudden extreme danger automatically turns into medical shock. The point is, your assumption about that doesn't work, as cases like soldiers trained to handle such situations show. That's why I brought up experience earlier, etc.

Fair point. I was just talking in more general terms. Serious injuries don't always result in shock, and sometimes you could die before shock sets in. 

[Zox Tomana]

 

<sarcasm> First, I'd like to thank you for addressing only the very first things I said and then totally ignoring that I went on to address, basically, the VERY point you bring up, but by addressing the specific idea of "leaving it at home" instead of bringing in a new situation. Yes, thank you for ignoring the majority of my post. </sarcasm>

 

And regarding to only talking about doctors: I only spoke of medical scenarios because I have been medically trained, and am currently undergoing further medical training. It is the stuff I am familiar with.

 

But both Bones and I mentioned that such things can be extended to soldiers and to people who are trying to keep themselves alive. Did you miss that part? And as to the idea of instant shock and unconsciousness, did Bones not admit already that it is possible to have situations in which you would be unable to use the mask even if you have it ready to go? The idea is that "I have this mask ready to go if I can use it." It is a tool to have and to be used if/when possible. What if you're a Toa who is wearing an Akaku, but end up being surprised by an enemy against whom you need to use a Kakama to succeed. However, the enemy is too fast and keeps up such a pressing attack that you don't have time to switch? Is the Kakama useless? No. It is of no use to you in the THAT scenario, but it still has a use and a purpose. No one would argue that it didn't. The problem with the mask isn't that it can NEVER be used, or that is has NO USE. The problem is the difficulties we have observed in PROPERLY and USEFULLY using it. So how do you make that Kakama useful in that scenario? You apply your battle-training to do everything you can to get away for a moment and switch, instead of continuing the fight at a disadvantage.

 

Is everyone who receives a mortal wound going to be able to make the switch to MoU? No. Neither Bones nor I said that it would happen 100% of the time. But it is a leap too far to say it will happen 0% of the time, either. That's just a danger inherent to the use of any mask. Why would someone in the confusion of a battle be able to remember to switch on a Hau? Someone being forcefully drowned remember to switch to a Kaukau if they can't force themselves back above the water? Someone *wearing a Kualsi* remember to teleport away when the lava from a volcanic eruption is fast bearing down up them? Mask use can very easily be imagined to depend on presence of mind under extreme duress. Presence of mine to perform an action that is commonplace in the MU, at that. Mask use is practically bike-riding: you have to learn how to do it (how to balance, how to use the pedals, what speed you can/can't stay upright at), but it isn't something that is extremely difficult to do.

First, I'd like to point out that the rest of your post was already discussed, and I didn't feel it was necessary to discuss any further. No need to get huffy.

 

You say it wasn't necessary to discuss it, but you... went on to rehash it anyway? I'm not kidding. I spoke about the joint problems of leaving it at home and having to baby it, and then you rode over that and... talked about the problem with leaving it at home like I had never considered such ideas.

 

????

 

That's not the kind of experience you can translate to "in the heat of battle where it's YOUR problem." In your example, someone else is at stake, and you have plenty of tools and resources to help them. How does that have anything to do with a dying person trying to put on a mask they don't have on their immediate person?

You seem to be still ignoring that I simply gave those as examples of people having to have presence of mind under duress, and went on to say that--while I am not a soldier and am not military trained--I feel it is reasonable to assume that training for extreme situations can be extended to the idea of battle, to the idea of facing close-to-death scenarios. You also seem to be ignoring a gigantic machine known as the military which trains people to act in ways to preserve not only the lives of others but also their own lives under the extreme duress of battle. Training in the martial arts is a worldwide phenomenon, developed across the world in all periods of history, in order to teach people how to act in the heat of the moment in order to come out on top of in a vast array of kill-or-be-killed situations. Not all of them even assuming that you're healthy and long-for-this-world. Combat training has been shown to exist in the world of Bionicle (Nidhiki training Dark Hunters), why do you exclude the idea that someone can keep focus in deadly scenarios?

 

You're assuming those situations happen often enough to make a difference. See, with your Kakama point, all you have to do is avoid attacks while you're (surprise, surprise) still alive and more or less intact. Now, change that to "you're currently dying and nowhere near full capacity." Does your example still make sense? You can't change the scenario to make a point. Your point has to make sense in that context. You keep stepping away from that.

The point I was making was that each mask would be extremely useful in each situation, but it would be wrong to say each mask was useless because you couldn't access them in time for use. Your idea is that the MoU is useless because you're incapable of accessing it when you need it, glossing totally over any possibility of accessing it and making an extended assumption about the capabilities of people who live and work in combat scenarios.

 

 

Last I checked, all of the Nuva, most of the Mahri, and the entire Federation of Fear (minus the not-too clever Carapar) all came back very much alive. Highly important quest =/= death.

So you're back to "how do you know you'll die"? How is that an answer, since you also don't know you won't, and the mask is meant in case you do?

 

Highly important quest =/= death, but that's not relevant to mask utility. 1. The Quest is of importance to YOU. A lot of the FoF crew only cared about getting out of dying or being deported to the Pit, not the mission they were sent on. 2. The mask isn't of use because the quest is high importance, but because you expect a high risk of death. It isn't about knowing you're going to die, it's about being realistic and saying "I could probably die, good thing I have this tool handy that I might be able to apply if it comes down to that, once all other possibilities have been extinguished." This is a back-up plan. I'd agree with you that it's a BAD and finicky back-up plan. I just don't agree with the idea that no-one is gonna be able to use it because "you aren't gonna be able to get to it." Like I said, you're making an assumption too far about the capabilities (or lack-thereof) of people who live and work with combat.

 

EDIT: Regarding "not on their immediate person." I covered that in the post you seem to skip most of. That's a danger of this mask. A reason I would regard it as a finicky and poor idea of a back-up plan. But there is no reason someone might not go through the trouble required to keep the mask positioned usefully if they have some expectation of using it. I regard that effort as a huge problem for use of the mask, but you my problem with your argument is that you seem to completely override any possibility of the results of that effort being made use of.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Zox Tomana

[fishers64]

You don't know you're going to die. That's the point. I don't wake up each day thinking I'm not going to make it through, ever. Why would anyone unless they had foresight into the exact moment of your death? You can't just turn the question around and act like that clears it up.

Please keep in mind that for the most part we live in developed countries with incredible military protection, insane levels of comfort, and access to the internet and cable television. Our death hardly seems to be a threat. If we lived in, say, Sudan, our death would be more...familiar...due to the fact that it could come at any time, by angry warlords or disease. 

 

Bionicle is more like that war-torn African country. We don't see Bionicle characters sitting around playing video games - they are out defending themselves from the constant threat of the evil bad guys. 

[The 1st Shadow]

Quick answer: You guys are aware that most Toa did not receive the military training that humans go through? Most of them go from artists, scholars, and engineers to suddenly having powers and larger responsibilities. They have to learn these things on the go. Plus, they have elemental and mask powers to make up for the things we lack and have to make up for in training. I don't get how you can still make that comparison given the facts.

@Zox: Nidhiki was training the Hunters to combat Toa, since he was one and knew how Toa think. He wasn't teaching them how to survive stressful situations.

 

Always fighting off the constant threat of bad guys? Um... No, not really. Check this list. Remove rahi attacks and minor skirmishes between, say, Axonn and Brutaka,  as well as all events that happened outside the MU, you're down to a very small number of actual threats in the entire 100,000 year course of history. Most of those very very localized battles. Given the massive scope of the MU, these "threats" of yours are very small and not exactly constant. The Skakdi have their civil war centered on their home island, the DH sometimes just steal, and don't always aim to kill dozens of targets, for example.

 

War-torn African country. with huge, thriving cities, tons of technological development, all housed by a planet-sized robot.  

[Zox Tomana]

Quick answer: You guys are aware that most Toa did not receive the military training that humans go through? Most of them go from artists, scholars, and engineers to suddenly having powers and larger responsibilities. They have to learn these things on the go. Plus, they have elemental and mask powers to make up for the things we lack and have to make up for in training. I don't get how you can still make that comparison given the facts.

@Zox: Nidhiki was training the Hunters to combat Toa, since he was one and knew how Toa think. He wasn't teaching them how to survive stressful situations.

I'd like to point to Toa Lhikan, whose transformation was never implied to happen under such drastic circumstances as the Toa Metru or Toa Inika (who, having lived on Mata Nui, did have some minor experiences with combat; especially Jaller as Captain of the Ta-Koro Guard, Kongu as the leader of the Gukko Force, and Hewkii as leader of the Po-Koro Guard). Lhikan was referred to as a Novice Toa in story while he was stationed with more-experienced Toa guarding the Makoki stone. It is an assumption, but I think it is a reasonable assumption to think that those older Toa probably gave him some training. There is also Krakua AND the Toa Mata, who were all trained by the Order (the the Toa Mata had to relearn some things) and were not simply dumped into fights like the Metru were. In fact, the Metru and Inika--and seemingly Orde and Helryx--are the only Toa we know of that we know for sure did not get some kind of training in combat upon their transformation.

 

And the point about Nidhiki was more to show that even people who fought as much as the Dark Hunters still underwent training. Roodaka even went to them for HER combat training.

[Regitnui]

T1S, RL, what happens if you win this argument? Would you expect Bones to remove it from the EM? Or would you like us to go to Greg and say "please un-canonize this, it gives me a headache"? Because honestly, you two seem to have something riding on this argument to be so vehemently against actually listening to what other people are saying. Yes, the MoU is a tricky mask to use but a) it has and never will be in story, b) was never drawn on a Toa in the first place, c) is unlikely to be used by a Toa, and d) was created for a world with different rules.

 

Also, I doubt Kulta and the Skull Gang are "shamblers", given they're the nearest thing to undead we've seen in bionicle. Who's to say that a To a under the effect of the MoU wouldn't be more like a good-aligned Skull Warrior than a pile of parts?

[fishers64]

Also, I doubt Kulta and the Skull Gang are "shamblers", given they're the nearest thing to undead we've seen in bionicle. Who's to say that a To a under the effect of the MoU wouldn't be more like a good-aligned Skull Warrior than a pile of parts?

*Lewa one-shots a bunch of Skull Warriors, sending them to their deaths* "I beg to differ." 

 

(Skull Warriors aren't really great by undead standards.)

[Regitnui]

 

 

Also, I doubt Kulta and the Skull Gang are "shamblers", given they're the nearest thing to undead we've seen in bionicle. Who's to say that a To a under the effect of the MoU wouldn't be more like a good-aligned Skull Warrior than a pile of parts?

*Lewa one-shots a bunch of Skull Warriors, sending them to their deaths* "I beg to differ."

 

(Skull Warriors aren't really great by undead standards.)

OK, they're weak. But they aren't shamblers.

 

Shall we rather say "good-aligned Skull Grinder"?

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Re: Undead-

 

in G1 Matoro had a mask of reanimation that made people's corpses into flesh-puppets, that's all the undead we ever actually see in that incarnation of Bionicle, and thus why learning this mask left you fully compitent and practically "re-lifed" feels so wrong. :0

[bonesiii]

The mask isn't of use because the quest is high importance, but because you expect a high risk of death.

 

Actually I'd go farther than that. When the quest is very important, even a low risk of death becomes good reason to get this mask, if the importance of the quest is high enough (especially if others' lives are threatened). To do your best (though you can still fail) to make sure it is accomplished.

 

 

Quick answer: You guys are aware that most Toa did not receive the military training that humans go through?

 

That was just a most-obvious example. Not everybody even who isn't trained reacts like they were in shock, and Toa have been shown in plenty of situations that should have triggered that reaction.

 

Whether it's meant to be something just innate to being a Toa, or psychological because they know they have so much power, or just because Matoran who become Toa have tended to live so long and face lots of dangers, or all of the above.

 

However, the kind of Toa likely to go on such quests may get such training, or already have such experience.

 

Lhikan did some training of some of the Toa Metru, for example, and there were the highly experienced Toa Hagah too.

 

The Toa Mata were trained too. That last case is one that always gave me the impression a lot of this stuff could have been preprogrammed, too -- since Hydraxon presumably hadn't lived through a lot of battle to learn what he taught them by direct lesson from life.

 

 

 

Most of them go from artists, scholars, and engineers to suddenly having powers and larger responsibilities. They have to learn these things on the go.

 

I've theorized before that probably all or most Matoran go through basic survival training, regardless of their jobs. And we also know they have a lot of knowledge like basic language automatically downloaded -- we don't know that much of this sort of thing isn't included. (Really, if you were in charge of that knowledge download, why not give them that?)

 

 

T1S, RL, what happens if you win this argument? Would you expect Bones to remove it from the EM?

 

Anything's on the table, if they can soundly show a real problem. Including pointing out a real problem to Greg and asking for a (previously agreed by fans here) solution.

 

If it could be proven for example that shock is a magical curse (not to mock, but it's what T seems to be saying) that always or usually prevents mask switching or grabbing something from your backpack from the moment you begin dying, or close enough -- then we could ask for a change to the other idea of adding an auto-Suva power to it.

 

But from what little I've heard from news stories of people not trained, etc. I don't think it works that way in real life, even, and certainly doesn't seem to in Bionicle. Anyway.

 

 

Matoro had a mask of reanimation that made people's corpses into flesh-puppets, that's all the undead we ever actually see in that incarnation of Bionicle

 

?? How can you say that when it was already brought up that the other example of Sentrakh actually inspired this mask?

 

Not that it matters -- before those there was none. What's your point, exactly? It seems -- correct me if wrong -- to be that Matoro's mask somehow proves that undead must be shamblers. Offhand, I don't recall it being said that mask did that. But if it did, so what? That's that power. Since that creates swarms of undead, that would even make sense. That's usually how it goes with pop-culture undead; swarms are usually the weaker kind (but still harder to kill), and undead "main characters" like Barbossa are more like normal people plus hard to kill.

 

(Though there was also I Am Legend, which was even stronger seemingly than normal people, although that didn't seem to be true undeath per se if badmem serves.)

 

The rules for each power are their own, RL. Just like the fact that Levitation only lets you hover doesn't mean that Telekinesis can't make objects both hover and move sideways. (Or Flight move you forward, but those two were right in 2001.)

Edited November 7, 2015 by bonesiii

[Timageness]

Considering the decrease in processing power (a.k.a. brain activity) that goes hand-in-hand with the mask's usage, I'd say that Skull Warrior would probably still be the better example, as Skull Grinder was able to hold his own against an entire team of Toa.

It's probably a good idea to remember that G1 Toa are also about 90% mechanical, so they'd probably stay alive just a little bit longer than the average human when put into the dying state. Lhikan appeared to have his entire torso crushed by Teridax's Shadow Hand, which probably had enough force behind it to rival an impact from an average semi truck (which would essentially rupture one's internal organs as if they were grapes), and yet he was still around long enough to have a short conversation with Vakama that ended with him giving the Toa his mask. If that's not enough time/mental capacity necessarily required to switch to a Mask of Undeath, then I don't know what is.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Matoro had a mask of reanimation that made people's corpses into flesh-puppets, that's all the undead we ever actually see in that incarnation of Bionicle

?? How can you say that when it was already brought up that the other example of Sentrakh actually inspired this mask?

 

Simple, if sentrahk inspired the mask, then something's wrong here.

 

Sentrahk never died, he isn't an undead, he is instead neither living nor dead due to heinous experiments that, i should note, also wiped his mind and left him hideously disfigured. Sentrahk is a paradox, an anomoly, and any mask that can replicate his state is probably not worth putting on your face for anything.

 

again, Tryna puppet-corpses are basically the only undead in Bionicle G1, and they're even weaker than skull warriors!

Edited November 7, 2015 by Rahkshi Lalonde

[Regitnui]

again, Tryna puppet-corpses are basically the only undead in Bionicle G1, and they're even weaker than skull warriors!

Wait, where do we see that? I'd imagine puppet-corpses to be as powerful as the Tryna-master's concentration.

 

And wasn't there a Tryna-shark-puppet strong/agile enough to take on a living sea monster in the Mahri arc? That doesn't sound weak or shambler to me

 

EDIT: Were we to say the MoU took a 'backup' of the user's personality occasionally, and upon death replaces the departed spirit with that 'backup' personality. Since the 'backup' can't develop, it basically drops dead upon finishing whatever mission the 'backup' considers most important.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Regitnui

[bonesiii]

Simple, if sentrahk inspired the mask, then something's wrong here.

 

Sentrahk never died, he isn't an undead, he is instead neither living nor dead due to heinous experiments

Now you're just repeating the "it's different from this other case" logic, but of course it is. Why would we want to do something new that is just a copycat/clone of something already done??

 

Also, he is undead, as you admitted half a sentence later -- he's neither living nor dead.

 

again, Tryna puppet-corpses are basically the only undead in Bionicle G1

Well, since Sentrakh is just one person and you did put that caveat in there of "basically", this one's closer to true. Then again, you yourself were ignoring weight earlier, so if we just look a number of types, there's three -- Sentrakh, users of the Mask of Undeath, and puppets of the Tryna. Of course, Greg also said the plan for the RS was to have a "zombie story in space", so there's sort of that too.

 

Regardless, this accomplished nothing. It's like saying, "Flight moving forward was basically the only hovering-related power in Bionicle... so the Miru shouldn't be canon."

 

EDIT: Were we to say the MoU took a 'backup' of the user's personality occasionally, and upon death replaces the departed spirit with that 'backup' personality. Since the 'backup' can't develop, it basically drops dead upon finishing whatever mission the 'backup' considers most important.

I see it more as that during life it only charges up the battery, and then at death it "back ups" what the user wanted at that point, but yes, the part about it not being able to develop your mind the way you would if you were alive to move on to new goals makes sense. Then, if the brain's available, draws also on knowledge still stored there. (Incidentally, this reminds me of another reason I might have written, though I don't recall for sure, the part in the original explanation about "a few years or so" -- although the mask obviously preserves the body, it might not do a permanently great job of it!)

Edited November 8, 2015 by bonesiii

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

not even going to quote that because now you're just arguing semantics, and that's pretty petty tbh. :t

 

1. Sentrahk, i repeat, cannot be an undead, as he never died. you need to die to be an undead, sentrahk is simply an immortal being who cannot truly live, and cannot truly die. he's Barbossa, basically.

 

2. you know what i meant when i said "basically, the only undead in bionicle" and now you're just being smart about it, that's no way to contribute to a conversation. :r

 

3. the zombies from the red-star are still shambler zombies so i have no idea what you were hoping to achieve by mentioning that, for all we know the Kestora use the same voodoo magic the Tryna does to bring people back.

[fishers64]

3. the zombies from the red-star are still shambler zombies so i have no idea what you were hoping to achieve by mentioning that, for all we know the Kestora use the same voodoo magic the Tryna does to bring people back.

There is no evidence in The Powers that Be to suggest that the Red Starians are shamblers. Mavrah walked and talked with the Toa in the RS like a normal person. 

 

Further, Red Star revival is permanent and repairs all damage done to you; Tryna is temporary, does not repair the damage done to you, and doesn't bring back your mind - you're just a puppet of the user. It's not comparable. 

[Timageness]

From the Sentrakh Page on BS01:

 

Sentrakh - Status: "Undead" state

He (Sentrakh) is described as unliving because he cannot live or die as Matoran see life and death.

 

Sounds undead to me.

Also, for the record, not all forms of undeath require the subject to die first; Wraiths are essentially spectral apparitions that can come into existence even when their bodies are still alive. They are also defined as being a semblance or shadow of their previous self, and considering the disfigurements, his lack of memories prior to his transformation, and the fact that TSO had to reteach him everything he currently knows, it is my belief that this form of undead is the one that most resembles his condition even though he still retains a physical form.

So to clarify, he's still undead, just not a zombie.

Edited November 8, 2015 by Timageness

[Regitnui]

not even going to quote that because now you're just arguing semantics, and that's pretty petty tbh. :t

That's all this debate is at this point. One side throwing up semantics to prevent themselves from admitting they're wrong, and the other making the same point over and over.

 

1. Sentrahk, i repeat, cannot be an undead, as he never died. you need to die to be an undead, sentrahk is simply an immortal being who cannot truly live, and cannot truly die. he's Barbossa, basically.

Barbossa is undead. He's got no flesh left on him and cannot eat or drink. The only think that's intact is his mind, and that only because the curse preserves that above all else. They go so far as to refer to themselves as 'dead' or parts of a 'ghost story'. They're dead, but living. Undead.

 

2. you know what i meant when i said "basically, the only undead in bionicle" and now you're just being smart about it, that's no way to contribute to a conversation. :r

He did. He engaged with that. The Tryna undead are the only 'revived corpses', yes, but even in the real world there are numerous kinds of undead; ghosts, skeletons, zombies, vampires, wraiths, liches, etc. Only the zombies and skeletons are 'shamblers' in some depictions. Vampires and liches in most modern depictions keep their real minds, and even gain greater agility and strength than when they lived.

 

3. the zombies from the red-star are still shambler zombies so i have no idea what you were hoping to achieve by mentioning that, for all we know the Kestora use the same voodoo magic the Tryna does to bring people back.

Fishers contradicted this, but let me ask you a question; How does it make sense for the resurrection system for a limited-population robot to turn the maintenance workers (skilled workers) into shamblers (unintelligent and slow)?

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Fishers contradicted this, but let me ask you a question; How does it make sense for the resurrection system for a limited-population robot to turn the maintenance workers (skilled workers) into shamblers (unintelligent and slow)?

 

In the unfinished serials (and Greg's responses later on) we learned that the Kestora on the RS eventually went nuts and started doing experiments on the newly revived beings in hopes of figuring out why the sendback teleporter wasn't working. Mavrah came out fine because (we assume) he just drowned, and only needed minor repairs. But because the Kestora had completely lost their minds, they no longer cared too much what state their patients were in. Recall how quick they were in deciding to take apart Pohatu and Kopaka only moments after discovering them on the Star, despite the two of them being in perfect condition.

While their malformed patients may not have necessarily been unintelligent or slow, we can assume that they probably were not put together properly, physically and mentally, so there would have been some limits to their capabilities.

That's all there is to that point, really.

Edited November 8, 2015 by T1Shadow: The Artisan

[bonesiii]

1. Sentrahk, i repeat, cannot be an undead, as he never died. you need to die to be an undead

No, then you would be dead, not "neither dead nor alive." "Neither" means "not" -- and so does the prefix "un", RL. Reanimation after having completely died (like Tryna) is one way to become undead. But with Sentrakh and Mask of Undeath, there's no time of normal death in between life and undeath. Hence the inspiration. (And hence the "re" in Reanimation.) The difference, of course, is that Sentrakh was put in that state intentionally (apparently), while generally MoU wearers were attempted to be killed normally.

 

But we aren't told how he was put into it. For all we know, the power of this mask was granted him and he was "killed". All we know is "experiments" were done to reach that state, which tells us almost nothing about those experiments... and may even suggest some of them failed in a deadly way and he was indeed reanimated -- who knows!

 

As for semantics, you brought this up as a semantic argument, but agreed, it doesn't really accomplish anything (that's why I mentioned that... should have mentioned it was semantics, but there it is.).

 

Yes, I knew you meant "Sentrakh isn't undead", but had just pointed out why that wasn't true (hence my saying your "basically" wording is technically close to true).

 

 

 

Actually folks, I agree with RL on the RS example, and I brought it up partly as a nod toward his perspective. But mainly simply because he'd made it sound like there was only one case of undeath, and that's another apparent case, so that seems to be incorrect because of the RS too, not just Sentrakh and MoU users.

 

As to whether they're shamblers, Mavrah isn't, but I don't see him as one of the ones Greg probably meant by zombie anyways. Revived does not equal zombie -- and the final scene of the story implied there was something evidently somewhat slow moving and very creepy approaching that Mavrah clearly portrays as different from himself somehow. Greg also said that they tend not to come back right. That doesn't give us much but it does imply that this was going to be Bionicle's foray into the "shambler" version of undeath. (And again a horde.)

 

Then again "not right" could mean this group has a lot of variety. Some might be undead, some just physically malformed, others just psychologically disturbed (as he suggested for Botar as the reason he hasn't teleported back), and of those who are undead, some may lose physical speed too, and others may be able to move at normal speeds but be hard to kill, etc.

Edited November 8, 2015 by bonesiii

[TungstenToa]

We are of the opinion that in order to gain any real usefulness, the mask of undeath's powers would have to be considerably increased. The creation of a Zombie is not very interesting. It would be far more pleasing to the mind, if the mask gave the user a sort of temporary reprieve of deathwhile they accomplished whatever goal they had in mind. That way, the user would have thier poor undead haert broken by having to look at all the things they had left behind, knowing that they are doomed, doomed, to fulfull a last task. If the mask of undeath were a bit powerfuller, we can assume that it would be used by Toa going on suicide missions. The donning of the mask would be a dreadful moment infused with fatality and religious portent. If the mask of unded were modified to make the use far powerfuller that they were while alvie, but entirely bound up to the will of teh mask, that woiuld also be more intesting. I think that story should be written...shoul it not?

We are of the opinion that in order to gain any real usefulness, the mask of undeath's powers would have to be considerably increased. The creation of a Zombie is not very interesting. It would be far more pleasing to the mind, if the mask gave the user a sort of temporary reprieve of deathwhile they accomplished whatever goal they had in mind. That way, the user would have thier poor undead haert broken by having to look at all the things they had left behind, knowing that they are doomed, doomed, to fulfull a last task. If the mask of undeath were a bit powerfuller, we can assume that it would be used by Toa going on suicide missions. The donning of the mask would be a dreadful moment infused with fatality and religious portent. If the mask of unded were modified to make the use far powerfuller that they were while alvie, but entirely bound up to the will of teh mask, that woiuld also be more intesting. I think that story should be written...shoul it not?

[The Editor]

... I don't really think this discussion is going anywhere, by the way. Everyone's just hurling the same points back and forth right now.

 

Can we all just, like, take a collective step back from our computers and chill?

 

I mean, this is a minor point, and you don't really need to argue about it. I think most of the points listed for how the mask could be used in a practical situation by someone who's dying are valid. At the same time, it is pretty valid to say that there are situations where a mask that protects you from a killing blow (say a mask of shielding or something) could be more useful. Additionally, it is true to say that sometimes, the person or thing that killed you is still going to be around - and heck, that does render your use of the mask useless most of the time, because they might be able to kill you again. But there are other scenarios where it may be useful, like in the case of poisoning or illness.

 

Basically, we've pointed out that the mask is useful in certain situations. That pretty much applies to any other mask. Is the mask of water breathing useless? Only if you're going to battle in areas that are landlocked and have no bodies of water around. Is the mask of night vision useless? Only if you're in an area that's well-lit 24/7. Is the mask of stealth useless? Only if you're fighting Lariska. There are pros and cons for many (if not all) masks, and that includes usefulness in certain scenarios.

 

The answer to the main question of this thread is basically: No. And that's because no mask is useless. They only have scenarios in which they are effective and ineffective, and it's been seen multiple times in this thread that there are scenarios where the use of this mask is viable.