On The Mask Of Time And The Great Disks...

[Makuta Matata]

Few questions:1. Why do the 6 Great Disks form a Disk of Time? I mean, they may be Great Disks, but how does a combimation of their powers form a Disk of Time?2. Why was the Mask of Time made by Vakama? I mean, it's a Legendary Mask, like the Ignika. I'd say the MoT is more powerful than the MoL, and the MoL was made by the Great Beings. Is this saying that Vakama was a better Mask Maker than the Great Beings? Or did the GBs intend for Vakama to make the MoT?3. What happened to the Mask of Time? Last I heard, the Dark Hunters had it. Do they still have it?4. If the Dark Hunters had the MoT, why did they not use it against the Makuta or the Toa?5. If somebody were to shoot the Disk of Time at something, would all of it's power be used up in one go, or would it be multi-use?6. Why is the MoT so hard to use?If you can answer all these questions, I'll be a very happy person.

Edited January 14, 2012 by knuckles chaotix

[Ektris]

1. They just did. There is no other explanation.2. It's altogether likely that they did intend for him to make it, otherwise you're right, they would have just done it themselves. Or, they didn't expect one to be made at all and Vakama just got lucky.3. Yep. Voporak, to be specific. We haven't heard anything on it since he stole it.4. Who says they won't? Barely any story was covered after Voporak stole it. He stole it in the middle of the war, and not long after everyone evacuated onto Spherus Magna. Not much time has passed.5. Since it never happened, we can't be certain, but yeah it's probably multi-use.6. This one should be rather obvious... Time is a rather difficult thing to control. It's a very powerful thing. Would you want it to be easy to control? That could cause way too much chaos.~|ET|~

Edited January 14, 2012 by Electric Turahk

[Taipu1]

I doubt the GBs had any intentions as to who made the Mask. I think what classifies a Mask as Legendary is that it is unique and powerful. Vakama made one, and so it was legendary. At the end of the day, Legendary is just a word applied to these masks. And I would say that the Mask of Life is stronger than the Mask of Time. I mean the Ignika can think for itself! Think Electric Turahk summarised everything else rather well.

[fishers64]

1. Well, the Great Disks were made by the Matoran, since Kanoka were invented by the Matoran.

One of the discoveries to come out of the Knowledge Towers was the means to create disks from liquid protodermis.

Now how they managed to get so much power into six disks that together they would become a disk of time is unknown. My best guess is that they stumbled onto it by accident:

Even after all this time, Matoran are unable to predict just how powerful a disk will be or what power it will have.

2. Most likely, it was an accident. And the Mask of Life is more powerful than the Mask of Time, and the Mask of Life is more essential for universe operations, unlike the Mask of Time. 3.-6. What Electric Turahk said.

[Dralcax]

• [*]Who knows? A mask of Protodermis wouldn't be as exciting.[*]Yeah, it was his destiny.[*]Yes. Voporak has it.[*]They generally can't use Kanohi. I mean, even the Toa in the organization were mutated and their masks fused.[*]Multi-use.[*]It was made by Vakama, an ordinary mask maker, not Artahka, not a GB. Imagine getting a few planks of wood and building a dam to divert the Amazon river. If it was a professional dam of concrete and steel, sure. But a few planks, good luck with that. Same logic. The Vahi is poor quality and cannot control something as powerful and rigid as time easily with the average user's willpower.

[Toatapio Nuva]

@fishers64: Actually, Artakha made the Great Disks, not Matoran.As for the questions:1. Think about the other combinations that form different masks. For example, a Kanohi Pakari can be made from disks of regeneration, enlarge and removes poison. How is it logical that these specific disks form a mask of strength? The same oddity occurs with the disk of time. It just happened.2. The Great Beings made the Ignika for a reason, but there was no reason for the Vahi to be made. As stated in an earlier pst, Vakama probably just got lucky.3. Voporak stole it. After that, no one knows. And we probably never will, given the end of the story.4. Maybe Voporak hasn't delivered the mask to them yet. Remember, it takes Voporak time to travel. After Vakama used the Vahi in the second Bionicle movie and Voporak sensed it, it took weeks for him to reach Metru Nui. Or maybe the Dark Hunters are yet to think of a use for it.5. Multi-use, probably. Either slowing or speeding the time of the target, depending on the will of the one who launched it. Much like a Ga-Metru disk can be controlled by the launcher after being launched.6. The power is so great. Time is a fundamental force of the universe. Using it means affecting time everywhere in the MU, although it's only used in one spot.

[Makuta Matata]

Thanks guys!

[bonesiii]

@fishers64: Actually, Artakha made the Great Disks, not Matoran.

And this may be a hint as to some of the unanswered questions, like "why Vakama?" Artakha has a history of knowing of important destinies and planting objects where the people destined to use them will find them. I take this as evidence he knew Vakama had been hired by Makuta (as Dume) to make a Mask of Time, and knew it was destiny.

Think about the other combinations that form different masks. For example, a Kanohi Pakari can be made from disks of regeneration, enlarge and removes poison. How is it logical that these specific disks form a mask of strength? The same oddity occurs with the disk of time. It just happened.

My theory on this is that all powers are run by programming code. Some evidence for this was made when Greg approved the Mask of Conjuring (admittedly it was my idea ), which enables wearers to speak Matoran to temporarily program powers for the mask to run. I tie this to my old theory of protodermis as like a technological clay that runs entirely on code, which determines all its physics.If I'm right about these things, then the basic eight powers are probably base functions in the code, and combining them in certain ways does have programming logic, by combining base functions. Probably each basic power has a core base function surrounded by specific code that manifests that basic power, and mixing will jumble together parts of the code in ways predictable by a separate universal mixing program. Although just mixing code would result in nonsense most of the time, I suspect the mixing program repairs all mixed codes to the closest functioning program, so each time a new, working power is created.Results of this would be exactly what we see -- an infinite variety of powers possible, and yet each specific mixture, and then mixtures of mixtures, etc. results in the same powers each time -- never does the same mix produce two different powers.

but there was no reason for the Vahi to be made.

I highly doubt that. We've seen the very detailed role destiny plays in other examples. For example, the Vahi may have been destined to be the way to stop the Kal if they were trying to free the Bahrag. More evidence from Artakha here since Artakha apparently knew the Mata would become Nuva and have symbols.Re: Difficult to use -- well, the way it's portrayed in the original comic is more that it may be relatively easy to use, but difficult to keep the power from running out of control and destroying the world. So in that sense it may be like handling a very inaccurate, high-powered gatling gun with tons of ammo, which fires at extremely rapid rates, and trying to hit a target surrounded by people without killing the people. The safest approach is not to pull the trigger at all unless you have literally no choice. Edited January 15, 2012 by bonesiii

[fishers64]

@fishers64: Actually, Artakha made the Great Disks, not Matoran.

And this may be a hint as to some of the unanswered questions, like "why Vakama?" Artakha has a history of knowing of important destinies and planting objects where the people destined to use them will find them. I take this as evidence he knew Vakama had been hired by Makuta (as Dume) to make a Mask of Time, and knew it was destiny.

The Great Disks were in Metru Nui long before Turaga Dume hired Vakama to make the Mask of Time. How would Artahka know where to plant the disks and exactly what would happen if he did? Astrology? That's a little weird, considering the fact that even Mata Nui did not know the events of LoMN, so how would Artahka know that Makuta was going to try to take over Metru Nui and that these exact Matoran were going to turn into Toa, and that one of them was going to just so happen to be a Toa who was a Mask maker and was going to be hired to make a Mask of Time before he become a Toa? Even if Artahka's henchmen didn't plant the disks until they were actually needed, which I find rather unlikely, they would have had to have planted the disks' legend in the Matoran's heads and/or in the archives or in the Great Temple. They are a failsafe in case something happened, and it did. Now the Nuva symbols are an entirely different ball game. I mean, when Artahka saw the world going to cheese and the Toa floating in the ocean, I can imagine that he guessed that a few Nuva symbols might be needed... just saying.

[bonesiii]

The Great Disks were in Metru Nui long before Turaga Dume hired Vakama to make the Mask of Time. How would Artahka know where to plant the disks and exactly what would happen if he did?

Well, he may have simply known they were destined for some purpose, on Metru Nui, and destiny could have handled the rest. What I meant was he might have known of a destiny of Makuta to hire Vakama for that task.One way he might know of certain destinies is that his Mask of Creation might include sketchy details beyond just how to make an object but where to put it and when in order for it to do what it is intended for. Mata Nui may also have just told him about certain destinies before he fell asleep, or perhaps destiny itself has a communication subsystem that can give out orders to major servants of Mata Nui.As for Mata Nui, he wouldn't need to know other details of events surrounding any destinies he told Artakha. And the details are not part of destiny usually; it's adaptive. For example Makuta's destiny to help in reforming Spherus Magna could have happened very differently had he not chosen to become evil, but either way Destiny made sure it happened somehow. Edited January 15, 2012 by bonesiii

[Toatapio Nuva]

^{Oh, that Destiny and the unnecessary complexity it brings to a children's toyline. I really doubt the Vahi was meant to be used to stop the Kal. I mean, the mask only gave time for the Toa Nuva to think for the actual way of defeating them, which was pooling willpower into the symbols and thus making them destroy the Kal. Besides, I really hate the idea of every single thing in the MU being destined to happen beforehand. It just makes the magic go away, in my opinion. But yeah, that's just my opinion. Still, I doubt the Great Disks being in certain places was just so Vakama could create the Vahi. The disks were used against the Morbuzakh, remember? That was their primary purpose, I think.}

[bonesiii]

I really doubt the Vahi was meant to be used to stop the Kal. I mean, the mask only gave time

But that's exactly what it's for... :)The reason I say that is that it's the most important good thing it has been used for, plus it was the reason we all had in mind as we learned the flashback stories; we always saw every scene through the lens of "it's going to be used for this important purpose someday."If it hadn't bought them time, the Kal would have freed the Bahrag, and the Toa would have been powerless to make another protocage. The Toa's actual attack could have been interfered with by the Bahrag. The Kal and Bahrag themselves may have either imprisoned or killed the Toa, and gone on to clean the island with the Matoran still on it, and Mata Nui may not have been awakened or revived at the times he needed to be. The stakes were huge, and it all came down to the Vahi in that moment.We've seen destiny play a role in events far more trivial, so why do you doubt in this case?Besides, destiny and time are inherently linked, so I'd think this would be among the most likely for that reason alone.

Besides, I really hate the idea of every single thing in the MU being destined to happen beforehand.

But Toatapio, that's an argument from your own personal taste. That is perfectly healthy of a preference, but it's arbitrary, just like the preference to like it, and can't logically argue against its role in any specific situation.Also, destiny in Bionicle is more like a system the Great Beings designed to influence events the way they wanted. It's not just "it was going to happen anyways" -- it's more like the "long arm" of the Great Beings reaching forward from the past (not back from the future), to continue to guide events towards the plans they had in mind.And similar for destinies Mata Nui established, etc. Also we know destiny is adaptive, even while Mata Nui is asleep, so even things none of them had in mind before the Great Cataclysm can be destined in a sense.Besides, we know that not every single thing is destined. Destiny worries about major outcomes -- and the most important use of the Vahi is definately a major outcome at least in my mind -- but it doesn't control character choices along the way. For example, Makuta shouldn't have turned evil, but since he did, destiny adapted to influence him to accidently do what it wanted anyways. Personally, I think this is brilliant -- if it was just how you put it, I would agree, I wouldn't like it, but that's not how it is.

Still, I doubt the Great Disks being in certain places was just so Vakama could create the Vahi. The disks were used against the Morbuzakh, remember? That was their primary purpose, I think.

Well, I agree -- that was another major outcome destiny probably guided for. And then the Disks stopped existing, once their destiny was complete -- a pattern we've seen a lot elsewhere -- and then the Vahi came into existence, setting up for its destiny.Let me ask this -- if the Vahi was basically just an accident, in a universe of destiny -- why is it a Legendary Mask? Which such ability to be destructive? Don't you think that's the sort of thing the programmers would want destiny to worry about? Why not instead have it just be one random Great Mask along the lines of many other Great-level powers which tamper with time but only in very limited ways, like Voporak's powers or Bitil's mask?The elements are, I think, major things established in the code by the Great Beings, and we know they included the Legendary element of Life. The fact that a power over time of Mata Nui's existed in the MU for the Vahi to harness would seem to mean it was already listed as a Legendary Power at the start, there simply wasn't a mask for it yet.Or, if you want to suppose the GBs had no idea their coding allowed for this Legendary Power to be made, don't you think destiny would adapt to such a major development?