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Unpopular Bionicle opinions

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For sharing opinions probably not a lot of other fans share.

As a kid, I was pretty used to fire guys being the front and center of Bionicle. Vakama was my first fire Toa and I rooted for him in his two movies, while Takua was not always conceived as an Av-Matoran. To me, a Bionicle protagonist had to be red and wield the element of fire, cos those were symbols of courage and passion. I was pretty much a red supremacist and I kinda still am, in a way. That's why I was extremely upset when Jaller was put on the side in promotional arts of 2006. Putting the focus of an ice Toa, the very opposite of a fire Toa, was a travesty for me - where is the warmth in ice? I also had no connection with Matoro since I knew Jaller better from watching TMoL. The conclusion of the 2007 storyline didn't help kiddie me either. It was a big thing for me back then and, while I have matured out of this state of mind long ago, it has affected my brain so bad I can't get into Matoro like the fandom does. That makes me pretty sad cos poor guy never did anything wrong to get my ire, he only did what was right.

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Two things: 

1. Same as you said, kind of, but I am fine with Takua being an Av-Matoran because it explains why he turned into a Toa of Light rather than a Toa of Fire, and I am fine with Matoro’s sacrifice in 2007. It’s sad to see him disappear, but yes. He earned my respect. 
2. Mata Nui doesn’t use a Thornax Launcher in the G1 story. 
3. I never thought Gaardus was a bad combiner. He is made of tiny sets (the Stars sets in 2010), but he looks cool. I expect him to be Hulk-sized when in a Toa-Inika-scale.


I like Lego, Bionicle, and Hero Factory!:)

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I never cared about the lack of gender diversity within each Matoran tribe, nor did I care about the lack of romance. I don’t care much about any kind of diversity in any story, honestly, though, as long as it’s compelling enough to keep my attention without questioning why everyone is male, or some other trait. The Hobbit was a great story with an all-male cast, but to fill the expectations of moviegoers, Peter Jackson had to make up a new female character to introduce a romance subplot, which is frankly only one of many problems with the Hobbit trilogy (another one of which is the fact that it is a trilogy). I would argue that BIONICLE, on the other hand, is better with at least some female characters, because, as a whole, it’s the story if many different characters from all over the world, as opposed to just one group of 15 characters like The Hobbit. It also helps to give dimension to characters who we cannot visually distinguish as male or female (Roodaka notwithstanding...). But while I think gender diversity as part of the entire universal population is great, it never really bothered me that there are specifically no female Ko-Matoran, or no male Ga-Matoran.

It does kind of bother me that we never saw a female Skakdi, though, even as an unnamed background character. At least there was a male Vortixx in the flashback in Shadow Play.

Edited by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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Bionicle's rich lore was it's biggest strength, but also it's biggest weakness, at the same time. As the line went on, the story became way too complex for kids to follow, which ended up hurting the line in the long run. Instead of being just a straightforward narrative, it was a convoluted mess of movies, comics, books, and web serials that often contradicted each other. On top of that, not having a consistent medium to tell the story through made the story incredibly hard to follow even for those who were interested in following it. 

Bionicle had a great story, but the story being way to ambitions (especially for a LEGO theme) ended up being the cause of the line's end. 

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1 hour ago, Cheesy Mac n Cheese said:

I never cared about the lack of gender diversity within each Matoran tribe, nor did I care about the lack of romance. I don’t care much about any kind of diversity in any story, honestly, though, as long as it’s compelling enough to keep my attention without questioning why everyone is male, or some other trait. The Hobbit was a great story with an all-male cast, but to fill the expectations of moviegoers, Peter Jackson had to make up a new female character to introduce a romance subplot, which is frankly only one of many problems with the Hobbit trilogy (another one of which is the fact that it is a trilogy). I would argue that BIONICLE, on the other hand, is better with at least some female characters, because, as a whole, it’s the story if many different characters from all over the world, as opposed to just one group of 15 characters like The Hobbit. It also helps to give dimension to characters who we cannot visually distinguish as male or female (Roodaka notwithstanding...). But while I think gender diversity as part of the entire universal population is great, it never really bothered me that there are specifically no female Ko-Matoran, or no male Ga-Matoran.

It does kind of bother me that we never saw a female Skakdi, though, even as an unnamed background character. At least there was a male Vortixx in the flashback in Shadow Play.

I didn't care for it either as a kid. It had the advantage of making it easy to tell which set were male or female. Still, I remember Roodaka was the set I wanted the most from 2005 because of how her "sex" and figure made her stand out among others. And it's still a solid and creative set.

Nowadays, while I admit it was practical and logical for a toyline aimed at boys, I think it was all very limiting creatively-speaking, for both the creators and the fans. I wish we had had more cases like Gorast (and later Korgot) back in the day: sets that didn't let color define what sex they should have and made the most out of it to offer new memorable characters.

Still, I fully agree those matters are the least of the franchise's problems. Contrary to what many would want people to believe, diversity does not equal quality writing, and we've had amazing works starring males only - you mentioned The Hobbit, I'm personally thinking of Twelve Angry Men and The Thing.

In the end, I'm not losing sleep over that. What keeps me awake at night, however, was a Titan female Skakdi set that would make the Piraka cower in fear.

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the bara magna saga wasn't bad.  it just felt more lackluster because it was relegated to the last two years of bionicle's shelf life, as opposed to the eight years the "main" saga received.

story wise, it had some pretty high concepts like the creators of the matoran universe, a society long lost to history, post apocalypse, tribal warfare and imperial expansion, and reactions to a literal deity walking among the populace.  they definitely should have been given more room to shine; i think a lot more cool stories could have been spun from them.

character wise, every major player had their own charms about them that made them stand out from the crowd that came before.  there were also some interesting spins put on traditional archetypes.  for example, i really liked gresh being idealistic and light-hearted because of his rookie status, rather than him being a general jokester like almost every green character before him, or malum taking the hot-headed brashness of a fire character to its logical extreme and making him extremely unpleasant to the point of everyone severing their ties with him permanently.  the characters who weren't present as often made their limited screen time work.  and the characters who only got the barest amount of characterization were- and still are- begging for fans to elaborate on them and flesh them out.  (i'm looking specifically at perditus.)  after all, isn't fan creativity one of the central pillars of the bionicle community?

set wise, we got a lot of new and cool-looking pieces, several of which solved problems that had affected the sets that came before.  the new skull pieces removed the awkward neck placement of the previous av-matoran style skull piece.  the new neck piece removed the hunched look the hordika neck constantly provided.  and we finally got pieces that looked like actual hands.  there was a lot more variety implemented in the canister sets to give everyone a distinct look despite the relatively limited inika building system.  the vehicle sets looked stellar and i wish i had gotten my hands on one.  the only real stinker was toa mata nui, but that's not exactly an unpopular opinion.

tl;dr bara magna deserved better.

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My unpopular opinion is still that I LIKED the Bohrok-Kal arc xD

I will grant that I can see why it's widely regarded as unnecessary 'filler'... because, in a sense, it was; it was just keeping the 'Bionicle hype' going until Mask of Light's release. And I will also grant, in hindsight, that it was a bit ridiculously placed; the Toa have JUST got all these fancy new powers that are a complete game-changer, so what's the first thing that happens next? Why, those powers get stolen because otherwise they're now too powerful!

But even so? The idea that the Toa's power even could be stolen, and seeing them deal with that... I loved that. The Bohrok-Kal were finally villains with a voice, even if not actual *personality* per se, and had interesting powers that hadn't been seen before that point... plus, I found their main-and-silver colour schemes more appealing than that of the standard Bohrok - though worth noting is that this was before silver became so prevalent in Bionicle as it did in subsequent years, so it still felt like a big deal at the time. Tales of the Masks, set during this arc, is one of my favourite Bionicle novels to this day. And the Bohrok-Kal's defeat was so cleverly staged, in my opinion, with seeing their powers pushed to their extreme limits and turned on them...

I dunno. I still have a lot of things that I love about that arc, even though it generally has a bad reputation in the fandom ^^

Edited by That Matoran with a Vahi
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For that is the way
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G2's story isn't great, but I will stand by and defend it as some of my favorite years of Bionicle. I think to many people don't give it the chance it deserves, they see the CCBS style and say "its to smooth, not Technic enough, not Bionicle enough" without ever actually having touched any of the sets. Underneath the hood so to speak, G2 was the most technically creative the franchise had been since those original 2001-2004 sets, with plenty of cool Technic functions and design choices that felt wholly in tune with the G1 design method. The only thing G2 lacked compared to G1 was proper titan and vehicle sets, which is shame. Yes, CCBS is smoother on the outside than G1 ever was, but the builds themselves stand out as some of the best Bionicle ever had. Its a shame that the sets are rare on the secondhand market though, I really wish more people had the chance to actually own and handle the G2 sets in person and see that the building experience is satisfying and more rewarding than they imagined. 

Edited by Xboxtravis
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the toa mata/nuva are overrated and overexposed.

maybe it's because i got into bionicle when they weren't on the shelves, or maybe it's because of my anti-"first installment always wins" attitude- i really don't like it when people praise the first iteration of a series/franchise to the detriment of later installments (like i've seen countless members of this community do with the 2001-2003 saga)- but personally, i don't understand why those particular six are held up as the "golden standard" or the "best" characters in so many circles.  they always felt kind of basic and tropey to me.  i might have been fine with that at first, but especially toward the end of their run they lost their charm for me.

i also don't understand why they took up so much of the spotlight.  part of the reason my reaction to the phantoka/mistika was negative was because i was sick of seeing them make another comeback and dominate the story again.  even when they toyline came to an end, they continued to be driving players in the online serials.  really, greg?  you've just introduced us to a brand new world full of brand new characters waiting to be explored, and you're going to go back to the same six guys that we already know inside and out?  and then there's the fact that they were the only main heroes in the reboot.  i was holding out hope that a different team would get another chance to shine, but no.  it was the same.  six.  guys.

tl'dr the toa mata/nuva need to take a break.

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2005 was a necessary year, and contrary to Greg's opinion it would not have been as powerful for Matau to become the villain as it was for Vakama.

Farshtey's novelization of Vakama's decent into madness was incredibly compelling in my opinion, and was a natural progression for the character. 2001 Turaga Matau never struck me as a traumatized individual who carried guilt about protecting his friends, whereas I always saw that weight in Turaga Vakama's presence. The movie did rush Vakama's arc but I certainly don't think 2005 could have been skipped over and forgotten. 

The titan sets were also brilliant, and Voporak walked so Kardas could run in terms of official combiner models. :D

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53 minutes ago, fabSheers said:

2005 was a necessary year, and contrary to Greg's opinion it would not have been as powerful for Matau to become the villain as it was for Vakama.

Farshtey's novelization of Vakama's decent into madness was incredibly compelling in my opinion, and was a natural progression for the character. 2001 Turaga Matau never struck me as a traumatized individual who carried guilt about protecting his friends, whereas I always saw that weight in Turaga Vakama's presence. The movie did rush Vakama's arc but I certainly don't think 2005 could have been skipped over and forgotten. 

The titan sets were also brilliant, and Voporak walked so Kardas could run in terms of official combiner models. :D

100% Agreed. Vakama being the one to to turn to darkness was the best options and was wildly entertaining and thrilling. I can't fault it.

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5 hours ago, fabSheers said:

2005 was a necessary year, and contrary to Greg's opinion it would not have been as powerful for Matau to become the villain as it was for Vakama.

Farshtey's novelization of Vakama's decent into madness was incredibly compelling in my opinion, and was a natural progression for the character. 2001 Turaga Matau never struck me as a traumatized individual who carried guilt about protecting his friends, whereas I always saw that weight in Turaga Vakama's presence. The movie did rush Vakama's arc but I certainly don't think 2005 could have been skipped over and forgotten. 

The titan sets were also brilliant, and Voporak walked so Kardas could run in terms of official combiner models. :D

It's a unique take, but I see it now. Yes Matau's vanity was hurt by becoming Hordika, but Vakama was burdened by being a leader and trying to live up to Lhikan's memory, so his own temptation to fall was equally great. Interesting.

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1 hour ago, Xboxtravis said:

It's a unique take, but I see it now. Yes Matau's vanity was hurt by becoming Hordika, but Vakama was burdened by being a leader and trying to live up to Lhikan's memory, so his own temptation to fall was equally great. Interesting.

I see Greg's point of view that Vakama really wasn't the kind of person to do a heel-face turn. 2005 and 2004, IMO, each work when taken in isolation, but '05 is not a logical progression from '04. That being said, Vakama betraying the team was most impactful because he was the leader. Not to denigrate Matau, but he's just another one of the teammates. Any of them defecting would have been problematic, but Vakama as head has a special responsibility.

2005 was actually, plot-wise, one of my favorite years. It really seemed to balance Greg's character-driven, Flash Gordon type storytelling with LEGO's desire for something more cohesive quite well.

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future is an empty book. You must find your own destiny, my brave adventurer.
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1: 2007 was not a very good year

2: Clone sets are awesome.

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Toa of Stone being Grey or Yellow was okay; it was the orange that was wrong.

 

Edit:

Toa of Acid should have existed, not Toa of Plasma or Psionics.

Edited by Toa Jaxus
Adding a second thought

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On 12/2/2020 at 11:07 AM, Cheesy Mac n Cheese said:

But while I think gender diversity as part of the entire universal population is great, it never really bothered me that there are specifically no female Ko-Matoran, or no male Ga-Matoran.

This kind of reminds me of how in ants, each caste is either entirely male or entirely female. Maybe the creators of Bionicle were going for that kind of structure rather than one that us humans are more familiar with, where males and females live in all regions in a roughly 50:50 ratio (if that makes sense to anyone else).

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On 12/24/2020 at 2:46 PM, Fyndegil said:

This kind of reminds me of how in ants, each caste is either entirely male or entirely female. Maybe the creators of Bionicle were going for that kind of structure rather than one that us humans are more familiar with, where males and females live in all regions in a roughly 50:50 ratio (if that makes sense to anyone else).

Wow...this actually makes sense when you think about it. In species like ants and bees, individuality is virtually nonexistent and life is entirely devoted to the benefit of the colony. Gender determines the job, no questions asked. The Great Beings designed the Matoran (and everyone else) to have basically no real personality or free will, just drones totally committed to their jobs that kept Mata Nui alive. If Velika hadn’t granted full sentience to everyone, things like the Matoran Civil War would never had happened.

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My friend went to Po-Wahi and all I got was this lousy rock.

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15 hours ago, Cheesy Mac n Cheese said:

Wow...this actually makes sense when you think about it. In species like ants and bees, individuality is virtually nonexistent and life is entirely devoted to the benefit of the colony. Gender determines the job, no questions asked. The Great Beings designed the Matoran (and everyone else) to have basically no real personality or free will, just drones totally committed to their jobs that kept Mata Nui alive. If Velika hadn’t granted full sentience to everyone, things like the Matoran Civil War would never had happened.

Why does this work so well? I mean the Matoran gender thing bugged me because I am used to the human 50/50 population split between genders, but this explanation for Matoran being more a 5:1 ratio makes a lot of sense. 


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  • The Makuta set from 2003 is not as great as many say.
  • The Bionicle films are neither good films nor good adaptations of the storylines.
  • Brutaka's Weapon is also not as great as many say due to the way his hands are built.
  • The Toa Inika are better than the Mahri. Every Mahri, except Jaller, feels like a downgrade.
  • The Toa Phantoka and Mistika are better than their reputation. There were lots of new reacolors, masks, and other parts. It also doesn't bother me very much that they don't have much resemblance to their Nuva forms, the Inika also look little like the Matorans they are, the same goes for the Mahri.
  • 2009 deserves more love for the same reasons as the Phantoka and Mistika: new reacolors, masks, and other parts. We also got the Mask of Life in gold and new vehicles. Also, it's impressive what they did for worldbuilding in one year. Compare that with themes like Ninjago that have existed for 10 years.
  • Not really a Bionicle opinion though: Hero Factory doesn't deserve the hatred of Gen 1 fans.

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matoran, toa, and turaga being treated as separate species makes no sense.  they'd be much better off as titles applied to one species and its different occupations- matoran are the normal villager guys, toa are the warrior heroes, and turaga are the village leaders and priests.

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7 hours ago, vis vitalis said:

matoran, toa, and turaga being treated as separate species makes no sense.  they'd be much better off as titles applied to one species and its different occupations- matoran are the normal villager guys, toa are the warrior heroes, and turaga are the village leaders and priests.

Bara Magna and G2 sort of went this route by at least merging the Matoran and Turaga equivalents into one species. It was an interesting change, but I think the original formula has (or had) immense relevance to Bionicle's target demographic. Seeing Vakama as a Matoran and Toa in 2004 was around the same time I first recall seeing younger photos of my dad and beginning to understand that all adults used to be young too, and that gives Bionicle some more emotional weight.


"You are an absolute in these uncertain times. Your past is forgotten, and your
future is an empty book. You must find your own destiny, my brave adventurer.
"
-- Turaga Nokama

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Click here to visit my library!

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My unpopular opinion (and first post in... such a long time. Yes I still lurk XD) is that the movies are bad.

One short look at Bionicle lore and you're quick to see that the movies are very watered down versions of the events with many short-cuts taken.


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On 2/7/2021 at 3:30 PM, Tattorack said:

My unpopular opinion (and first post in... such a long time. Yes I still lurk XD) is that the movies are bad.

One short look at Bionicle lore and you're quick to see that the movies are very watered down versions of the events with many short-cuts taken.

Which movies? I can definitely see that being said for Legends of Metru Nui and Web of Shadows because they skipped over the initial Metru and Hordika quests on account of needing screentime for the finale arcs; I think WoS is the bigger offender because it doesn't even have a transition sequence to fit in the quest like LoMN does. But Mask of Light isn't watered down - it's the main presentation of the late 2003 storyline; that's where it starts and that's where its focus is, and it makes sense enough and does well enough in that regard. I was disappointed by the Nuva not having longer fights with the Rahkshi or going Kaita, but the latter makes sense spectacle-wise.

On 12/8/2020 at 6:58 PM, Xboxtravis said:

It's a unique take, but I see it now. Yes Matau's vanity was hurt by becoming Hordika, but Vakama was burdened by being a leader and trying to live up to Lhikan's memory, so his own temptation to fall was equally great. Interesting.

Yeah, I saw it this way myself. Vakama has a lot more weighing on his mind than wounded vanity - he's trying to be a leader and live up to Lhikan's legacy, Lhikan sacrificed his life because of Vakama's failure to control the Vahi, and now he's gotten himself and his team captured and horrifically mutated with their powers inhibited and their minds under attack by their new bodies. That's a big mountain of insecurity for you - add in the pressure from the Hordika mutation and his own temper, and you've got a recipe for disaster. Greg Farshtey's idea of "Matau turns b/c vanity" feels shallow in comparison - no surprise, since Greg was a hack.

Oh, and here's something to consider: The 2005 comics show all six of them increasingly struggling under the strain of the Hordika mutation and getting closer and closer to cracking. I think any of them turning could be justified based on that alone. Vakama just so happens to be the one Roodaka targeted first. That's what ultimately turns him, after all: A toxic outside influence preying on his insecurities at a time of extreme psychological vulnerability. And judging by the comics, it could have happened to any of them.

Sailor Wah!, your comment about 2009 doing so much for worldbuilding in one year would hold more weight if most of that worldbuilding wasn't garbage.
I think the Karda Nui Toa sets would have been better as new characters. As for comparing it to the Inika not resembling their Matoran selves.. A. Different case, since the Inika are ascended Matoran rather than alleged re-armored Toa and B. The Inika have more resemblance than you'd think (Hewkii's dumb palette swap aside). It's obvious from studying the Inika masks that, contrary to how the comics present them, they were designed by the set creators as mutant versions of their Matoran masks. Just look at Kongu, for instance - you can clearly see a Kanohi Miru in that mask. If you were to cut away the organic growth under and above the chin bar, it would be even more blatant.
Based on having Nuparu, Kongu, and Jaller (somewhere), I agree about the Mahri largely feeling like downgrades from the Inika (and I don't even own the Inika). I think Kongu got it the worst - he has an Earth Toa build and no unique Toa Tool.

On 12/19/2020 at 1:17 PM, Toa Jaxus said:

Toa of Stone being Grey or Yellow was okay; it was the orange that was wrong.

 

Edit:

Toa of Acid should have existed, not Toa of Plasma or Psionics.

I dunno, plasma was at least already-present through the Bohrok-Kal. Although really the Toa that should not have existed is a certain Toa of Water whose name starts with H.

As for Toa of Stone colors... I think dark orange (like Matoran Hewkii has) was fine, although better as an accent color than a primary. Regular orange... That would be maybe-okay as accent, not good as primary (too close to Fire); same for yellow. Gray is fine as an accent, but as a primary it's too close to Earth colors, same for black. Hewkii Mahri being both black and flaming orange? Wrong! Wrong wrong!

On 12/4/2020 at 11:39 AM, That Matoran with a Vahi said:

My unpopular opinion is still that I LIKED the Bohrok-Kal arc xD

I will grant that I can see why it's widely regarded as unnecessary 'filler'... because, in a sense, it was; it was just keeping the 'Bionicle hype' going until Mask of Light's release. And I will also grant, in hindsight, that it was a bit ridiculously placed; the Toa have JUST got all these fancy new powers that are a complete game-changer, so what's the first thing that happens next? Why, those powers get stolen because otherwise they're now too powerful!

But even so? The idea that the Toa's power even could be stolen, and seeing them deal with that... I loved that. The Bohrok-Kal were finally villains with a voice, even if not actual *personality* per se, and had interesting powers that hadn't been seen before that point... plus, I found their main-and-silver colour schemes more appealing than that of the standard Bohrok - though worth noting is that this was before silver became so prevalent in Bionicle as it did in subsequent years, so it still felt like a big deal at the time. Tales of the Masks, set during this arc, is one of my favourite Bionicle novels to this day. And the Bohrok-Kal's defeat was so cleverly staged, in my opinion, with seeing their powers pushed to their extreme limits and turned on them...

I dunno. I still have a lot of things that I love about that arc, even though it generally has a bad reputation in the fandom ^^

I'm a fan of the Bohrok-Kal arc as well. A "powers lost" arc is kind of a rite of passage for superheroes, and Bionicle did it well. Additionally, it makes sense lore-wise for there to be contingency agents for the Bohrok swarms. And the solution was clever too.

==============================================================================================

Now, as for my actual contributions...

* Cathy Hapka and Henry Gilroy were better writers than Greg Farshtey.

* Clone builds aren't automatically bad. Case in point: Wairuha Nuva suffers pretty badly from trying too hard to be a divergent build from Akami Nuva.

* IDK where this falls on the popularity scale, but the 2004 palette shift did Fire and Air Toa super-dirty. Dark red and green didn't work for Fire or Air the way standard red and green did, and the loss of accent colors on the Metru (instead just having the dark stone gray joints) didn't help. They course-corrected with Fire, but main Air Toa suffered through 2007.

* Again, IDK where this falls, but the overwriting of Rahi reproduction was dumb.

* The Nuva Redesigns of the original six Great Kanohi are perfectly fine, thank you. The changes still fit the theme of the mask, and from a real-life perspective are very understandable - they were done to address where the original designs were prone to bowing and breakage (hence the flimsy Miru being perhaps the most changed versus the mostly-solid Akaku and Kaukau being the least changed; heck, the Kaukau's biggest change is being opaque).

* G2 was perfectly fine. In several ways it's kinda like the story overhaul I wish G1 would get - it returns to the roots and works out a more pure story from there that sticks to its guns (and doesn't badly inject edgy characters, plots, and non-fantasy sci-fi traits that don't mesh well with the existing fantasy-sci-fi traits and plot points). And the sets may be CCBS-looking on the outside, but they restore the action gimmick of yore. I wish it had been given more of a chance - maybe then the sets wouldn't be so blasted expensive on eBay. I would have bought some myself when it was on the shelves, I always meant to, but Transformers was a bigger collecting priority for me in 2015. And in 2016 I was focusing heavily on model trains.

Edited by ZeldaTheSwordsman
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Mask of Light is very much watered down. Looking at lore you'll see that several encounters with the Rakshi are missing, their investigation on Krata is missing, the investigation which lead to the reveal that the Turaga have been capturing and locking Krata up for centuries and how they are responsible for the initial poisoning of the Rahi masks is missing, the Toa's encounter with a shadow Krata is missing.

Mask of Light is a short list of SOME highlights covering the 2003 story arc, told in a very conservative and cost-saving way, put together in a cohesive movie, but doesn't come close to covering all the events that actually occur and the amount of Rahkshi the Toa Nuva encounter. It falls very short and doesn't even do a good job at portraying the main characters; Jaller, captain of the Ta Koro guard, veteran of the Rahi conflict and Bohrok conflict, commanded several successful offensives and defensives throughout his career, and we see him acting like a goofy teenager.


-I was infected for the most part on April the 1st 7.gifBEWARE

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On 2/16/2021 at 2:42 AM, ZeldaTheSwordsman said:

* Cathy Hapka and Henry Gilroy were better writers than Greg Farshtey.

Its been so long since I have read Hapka's stuff to comment for sure... but Henry Gilroy on a professional level is the most "I can't believe this guy ended up going to work on THAT" Bionicle writer there ever was, since the dude's work later on in Star Wars animation with Clone Wars and Rebels is legendary. I don't mean that as a knock on Greg myself, but more a kudos to Gilroy and how his career just took off post his work on the original Bionicle trilogy.

The one thing I will always credit Greg for though regardless of his writing skill or not, is that Greg always tried to interact with the fandom. In 2004 the idea of a series author being active with fans on forums and early social media was innovative, compared to now where every author has some Twitter page or Facebook page. Greg was very forward thinking in taking advantage of the forums to communicate with fans well before other authors adopted it and he was 15+ years ahead of the curve with it. 

On 2/16/2021 at 2:42 AM, ZeldaTheSwordsman said:

* G2 was perfectly fine. In several ways it's kinda like the story overhaul I wish G1 would get - it returns to the roots and works out a more pure story from there that sticks to its guns (and doesn't badly inject edgy characters, plots, and non-fantasy sci-fi traits that don't mesh well with the existing fantasy-sci-fi traits and plot points). And the sets may be CCBS-looking on the outside, but they restore the action gimmick of yore. I wish it had been given more of a chance - maybe then the sets wouldn't be so blasted expensive on eBay. 

G2's story failed in execution, but in concept its actually was pretty well rooted; returning to the franchise roots in an island setting. Okoto always felt like it had a chance to become as well regarded as Mata-Nui if it had been given the chance to grow. The sets are also brilliant, I always cringe when I see people online calling G2 sets trash just because "its all CCBS and not Technic!" which is the worst logical fallacy since under the hood there is more true Technic building in function in almost every major G2 set than there ever was in the Inika builds that dominated the end of G1. I usually try and mentally forgive them since I know how rare G2 sets are to get a hold of and its likely many of the line's critics have never handled one themselves in person (I have all the Toa from G2, most of the villain sets and most of the small sets too; so I am fairly familiar myself with hands on experience with all of G2's waves). G2 is criminally underrated set wise.  

10 hours ago, Tattorack said:

Mask of Light is very much watered down. Looking at lore you'll see that several encounters with the Rakshi are missing, their investigation on Krata is missing, the investigation which lead to the reveal that the Turaga have been capturing and locking Krata up for centuries and how they are responsible for the initial poisoning of the Rahi masks is missing, the Toa's encounter with a shadow Krata is missing.

Mask of Light is a short list of SOME highlights covering the 2003 story arc, told in a very conservative and cost-saving way, put together in a cohesive movie, but doesn't come close to covering all the events that actually occur and the amount of Rahkshi the Toa Nuva encounter. It falls very short and doesn't even do a good job at portraying the main characters; Jaller, captain of the Ta Koro guard, veteran of the Rahi conflict and Bohrok conflict, commanded several successful offensives and defensives throughout his career, and we see him acting like a goofy teenager.

Oh I have a special place for Mask of Light in nostalgia, but there is no denying that structurally its really just a watered down Lord of the Rings with a Bionicle skin. 2003 is kind of a messy year in general, since the Bohrok Kal and Mask of Light arcs are just stitched together and we began to lose a lot of that world building that made 2001-2002 so unique (even if MNOG II was arguably a more expansive look into the world of Bionicle, it was more muddled and not as cohesive tonally as MNOG was two years prior). As far as the films go, I much prefer the later Metru-Nui films since they were able to stand on their own, while Mask of Light is sort of the tacked on finale to what was already a three year story arc at that point. While it was a shame to lose the tribal setting in 2004, Metru-Nui was unique in its form of techno futurism and communicating basic Orwellian concepts in a kids toy. 


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On 2/18/2021 at 5:21 AM, Tattorack said:

Mask of Light is very much watered down. Looking at lore you'll see that several encounters with the Rakshi are missing, their investigation on Krata is missing, the investigation which lead to the reveal that the Turaga have been capturing and locking Krata up for centuries and how they are responsible for the initial poisoning of the Rahi masks is missing, the Toa's encounter with a shadow Krata is missing.

I feel like the kraata investigation wouldn't work very well in a feature film, especially one with Mask of Light's tone. Too much lore that not all viewers would be familiar with (while I have a basic understanding of 2001, I myself only got into Bionicle in 2002). Plus, it would make it too complex to feature kraata as an enemy, distinct from rahkshi, if that makes sense.

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On 2/18/2021 at 3:21 AM, Tattorack said:

Mask of Light is very much watered down. Looking at lore you'll see that several encounters with the Rakshi are missing, their investigation on Krata is missing, the investigation which lead to the reveal that the Turaga have been capturing and locking Krata up for centuries and how they are responsible for the initial poisoning of the Rahi masks is missing, the Toa's encounter with a shadow Krata is missing.

Mask of Light is a short list of SOME highlights covering the 2003 story arc, told in a very conservative and cost-saving way, put together in a cohesive movie, but doesn't come close to covering all the events that actually occur and the amount of Rahkshi the Toa Nuva encounter. It falls very short and doesn't even do a good job at portraying the main characters; Jaller, captain of the Ta Koro guard, veteran of the Rahi conflict and Bohrok conflict, commanded several successful offensives and defensives throughout his career, and we see him acting like a goofy teenager.

Ah ha ha ha ha ha so much of what you said was wrong.

1. There is a difference between "watered down" and "divided viewpoint." :roll: Mask of Light doesn't show the events you mentioned because it's mostly from the viewpoint of Takua and Jaller. If MoL is "watered down" for not showing those then "Rise of the Rahkshi" and "At Last -- Takanuva!" are watered down for not showing much of Takua and Jaller's journey or the actual final battle. MoL is the main story that covers the final leg of Takua's journey to heroism and the big showdown, while the comics are a complementary story that fills in more of the Toa's offscreen adventures. (Also, if they're anything like other Bionicle comics, the exposition is mostly infodumped rather than integrated smoothly. Which would be even more graceless in a movie than it is in a comic.)
Oh, and given the publication timeframe the comics were quite possibly written AFTER the movie was; it's not like the 2004 and pre-Time Trap 2005 storylines where things were plotted out (somewhat) more cohesively. Heck, "Shadows and Secrets" came out after the movie.

2. The Toa encounter six Rahkshi either way. No more, no less.

3. I'll grant you have something of a point about characterization being spotty, but really the one who suffers IMO is Onua. Most of the humor with Jaller comes from him being exasperated by Takua, which makes sense in the context of him also being Takua's more responsible friend. Really the worst he gets is not being able to solo an ash-bear, and that's honestly not too bad. And you know, he's shown as being quick to arms in times of danger, and bold enough to take on a Rahkshi head-on... Takua's characterization also makes sense in context - blowing the Kolhii match brought forth a lot of self-doubt, quite possibly mixing with subconscious fear of change. And his having a foolish side isn't something the movie made up; it was established in the games that his antics actually got him temporarily exiled from Ta-Koro!

Frankly, I find the omission of the Chronicler's Tool (which is what the Staff of Light is obviously supposed to be a transformed version of; you only have to put them together to see that) more of an annoying oversight.

The Metru Nui movies are decidedly weaker for me. LoMN forgets about the Toa's elemental powers until the final battle, and WoS doesn't have (a) transition(s) to give space for the comics like LoMN does.

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On 2/21/2021 at 2:25 AM, ZeldaTheSwordsman said:

Ah ha ha ha ha ha so much of what you said was wrong.

1. There is a difference between "watered down" and "divided viewpoint." :roll: Mask of Light doesn't show the events you mentioned because it's mostly from the viewpoint of Takua and Jaller. If MoL is "watered down" for not showing those then "Rise of the Rahkshi" and "At Last -- Takanuva!" are watered down for not showing much of Takua and Jaller's journey or the actual final battle. MoL is the main story that covers the final leg of Takua's journey to heroism and the big showdown, while the comics are a complementary story that fills in more of the Toa's offscreen adventures. (Also, if they're anything like other Bionicle comics, the exposition is mostly infodumped rather than integrated smoothly. Which would be even more graceless in a movie than it is in a comic.)
Oh, and given the publication timeframe the comics were quite possibly written AFTER the movie was; it's not like the 2004 and pre-Time Trap 2005 storylines where things were plotted out (somewhat) more cohesively. Heck, "Shadows and Secrets" came out after the movie.

2. The Toa encounter six Rahkshi either way. No more, no less.

3. I'll grant you have something of a point about characterization being spotty, but really the one who suffers IMO is Onua. Most of the humor with Jaller comes from him being exasperated by Takua, which makes sense in the context of him also being Takua's more responsible friend. Really the worst he gets is not being able to solo an ash-bear, and that's honestly not too bad. And you know, he's shown as being quick to arms in times of danger, and bold enough to take on a Rahkshi head-on... Takua's characterization also makes sense in context - blowing the Kolhii match brought forth a lot of self-doubt, quite possibly mixing with subconscious fear of change. And his having a foolish side isn't something the movie made up; it was established in the games that his antics actually got him temporarily exiled from Ta-Koro!

Frankly, I find the omission of the Chronicler's Tool (which is what the Staff of Light is obviously supposed to be a transformed version of; you only have to put them together to see that) more of an annoying oversight.

The Metru Nui movies are decidedly weaker for me. LoMN forgets about the Toa's elemental powers until the final battle, and WoS doesn't have (a) transition(s) to give space for the comics like LoMN does.

And yet completely fails on the journey part. It still remains as a watered down story, because the "island" of Mata Nui in reality is massive, and the movie does nothing to show it, making it feel like Takua and Jaller more or less took a walk around the block rather than go on a dangerous and epic quest through sweeping lands while a new and untold threat could loom around any corner. Also, if the movie is so focused on Takua and Jaller's perspective, the scenes where both aren't present and only the Toa Nuva are around don't make any sense whatsoever. Much less when they don't even fit well with what we know is lore.

Face it; the movies didn't have any budget, so what we got were abridged versions of the story from those years. They don't hold up well as movies on their own and they're not representative of Bionicle lore beyond, to a certain extent, the "true" appearance of Bionicles.


-I was infected for the most part on April the 1st 7.gifBEWARE

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The 6 Toa Mata should have been the only Toa. The Toa that come after (and before) undermine their destiny of being the ones to vanquish evil and return home. 

Takanuva single-handedly defeats Makuta while the Toa literally watch from the sidelines without offering assistance. This portrays the Toa Mata as useless. Six Heroes, One Destiny One Hero, One Destiny.

Vakama and others have been Toa before, implying that the Toa are replaceable if they fail. It's a story that, whether or not it needed to be told, was one year too long away from the Toa Mata. 

Jala and others become Toa while the Toa Mata are still Toa, even to the end (no sacrificing of power to become Turaga). This makes Tahu and the others redundant. 

Mata Nui himself becomes a Toa and christens new Toa, while the Toa that saved him are pushed into the background again. Mata Nui, the guy they were sent to save, defeats Makuta without the help of the Toa Mata.

I don't think that having more Toa or new Toa is a bad idea, or that the Toa don't need help once in a while. But the creators presented a creed/legend that was amended every other year. Looking back, it seems that the universe got along just fine without that one team of heroes. 


PM me if you have a White Huna :huna: and/or Yellow Ruru :ruru: I'm willing to pay if you're willing to sell! If not, PM me anyway, I'm very curious about where they came from! :howdy:

 

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4 hours ago, chuckschwa said:

implying that the Toa are replaceable if they fail

Maybe, but I think throughout much of the franchise, the Matoran probably thought the current generation of Toa were their only hope. If you were a Matoran on Mata Nui, I bet you would feel all was lost if the Toa Mata failed against the Rahi or the Bohrok.

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A lot of lore stuff up there, I'm still amazed present day will still talking about this.

Not sure how to start off, but here goes.

2004:

The Vahki as a concept I enjoy, that Orwellian theme. "Trust in Turaga Dume." Man, I ate that stuff up with the animations and the tagline; "Surrender or Run". The flash animations and the tagline made the Vahki scary to me.

2005:

2005/2006 was very underrated. I know Greg's not a fan of 2005 but I think the sets do the job. Got that mutated wonky aspect from the Hordika, one huge arm one small one, feeling like the transformation is not yet complete. Got the job done, no complaints from me. Lore-wise, growing up with Metru in 2004-2005, that was like.. the Prequel Trilogy for me in Bionicle as it was for Star Wars I guess you could say. Anakin had his evil moment, Vakama also, showed nobody was perfect, some character development, all that jazz.

2006:

2006 has a special place in my heart (even though I love 2007 with an undying passion with my fav. Villains). I think the organic masks were a nice change of from the usual and added some charm and uniqueness to the Toa.I love 'em. Yeah, they didn't have the typical faces from before but it was remedied with the "bright light" story explanation after lol.

I really appreciate when anybody tries something new, even when they dip their toes in. I'd rather have somebody do that instead of them being a safe one-trick pony. A new breed of Toa, something's gotta change, and they weren't formally trained as Toa, or formally transformed the usual route. They were transformed under unusual circumstances and I think their appearances  reflect that. Something familiar yet something different. Also, the light-up swords were rad. Pew pew, electric-hybrid-elemental powers.

Marketing was loved or hated, I loved it and still look fondly back at it, tells the era it was from but also it stands out. Seeing those monstrous Piraka silhouettes in the commercial, jeez dude, those things TOWERED over the Bohrok, the Visorak, and those monsters were bulky in comparison to the Vahki. Told us that these villains were a new more menacing threat. They were cunning, internally fighting amongst one another, not some mindless robot enforcers or wild spiders. These dudes towered over the Toa Nuva and gave me a sense that a new generation of heroes was needed to handle this if the original heroes I grew up with couldn't handle them. Though nothing will triumph the might and complexity of the original bigger Rahi sets and the Bohrok Queens, those things were huge!

2007:

Speaking of 2007... Oh my goodness, the main man, my boi, Mahri Hewkii, I think he gets way too much hate. I'll defend that set for as long as I live. I think he's pretty rad. The arm attached to him kinda reminds me of Mega Man and tells me that they weren't afraid to experiment with the design and play it safe, but also, hey, sometimes you don't get lucky with the Mask Of Life changing things whenever somebody touches the thing lol. (But hey, the remedied this in the Journey's End pictures when they gave him two hands hahaha)

2010:

I honestly don't hate STARS line. I see it as a final "Hurrah". I'm glad we were able to get some closure instead of an incomplete chronicle. Even though some things were wonky like the marketing of Nektann.

 

Other things:

Po-Matoran/Toa color overhaul: I don't mind the color shift, actually. Tis 'aight. Inika Hewkii rocked that (no pun intended) color scheme the best with his chain.
 

Uhm.. I think that's all for now. Man I've been holding these thoughts in my noodle for years lol. Nice to see I can share them with you all. Glad to be a part of this. :) Cheers!


Mnolg_macku.PNG.png.d52db10d4af20fb5cc47bafb9de8f26e.png375px-MNOLG_Matoran_Hewkii.png.0218fb049c213bba7505666a311c196a.png

 

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On 2/5/2021 at 1:02 PM, vis vitalis said:

matoran, toa, and turaga being treated as separate species makes no sense.  they'd be much better off as titles applied to one species and its different occupations- matoran are the normal villager guys, toa are the warrior heroes, and turaga are the village leaders and priests.

Who has treated them as separate species?


-L

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Posted (edited)

Kongu Mahri and Pohatu Phantoka are both good sets and aren't too wide/short at all.

Matoro wasn't a particularly interesting character and his sacrifice didn't really have any sort of emotional impact on me. (Admittedly, I didn't really follow the books/comics/serials in 2006 and 2007; perhaps I'd have been a bit more invested in the character if I had.)

 

Edited by Distorted

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8 hours ago, Lorentz said:

Who has treated them as separate species?

they are classified as separate species in official bionicle lore, which doesn't make sense.  if the "life cycle" of the matoran species goes matoran - toa - turaga, why aren't those terms just used to describe the different stages of said cycle?  you don't give an insect a brand new species name at every stage in its metamorphosis.  i'd much rather have that if there absolutely has to be an evolution otherwise, i think they should just be titles to describe village roles.

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12 hours ago, vis vitalis said:

they are classified as separate species in official bionicle lore

No they aren't


-L

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Posted (edited)

There are the same species. No where does it say they are treated as different species. A real life example of different names for stages of life would be frogs as they are tadpoles. Also butterflies and caterpillars.

Edited by Onvermel
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But you can call a fungus by different species names for different forms, although that's because fungi were really difficult to study and at first mycologists didn't know that a species had another form, rather than intentionally giving them different names.

I think the confusion with the Matoran/Toa/Turaga is that there's not an overarching word for all of them. Maybe they didn't have the "evolution" concept when they started Bionicle.

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1 hour ago, Fyndegil said:

But you can call a fungus by different species names for different forms, although that's because fungi were really difficult to study and at first mycologists didn't know that a species had another form, rather than intentionally giving them different names.

I think the confusion with the Matoran/Toa/Turaga is that there's not an overarching word for all of them. Maybe they didn't have the "evolution" concept when they started Bionicle.

That's a good point. It was a spoiler in 2003, not only that Takua was the Seventh Toa, but that Matoran could become Toa at all. It's interesting how at the time Takanuva was interesting for being the only Matoran turned into a Toa, but in hindsight the Toa Mata were the unique specimens for being one of very few Toa who were never Matoran.

Matoran/Toa/Turaga are all in-universe words, though, presumably developed by people who were aware of the connection.


"You are an absolute in these uncertain times. Your past is forgotten, and your
future is an empty book. You must find your own destiny, my brave adventurer.
"
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10 hours ago, Master Inika said:

Matoran/Toa/Turaga are all in-universe words, though, presumably developed by people who were aware of the connection.

That's possible too. If they gave too many hints that Matoran and Toa were the same "species," fans would guess that the 7th Toa was going to be a Matoran who levels up, so to speak.

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