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[Update 10/17] Red Star Revelations

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Insane, crazy, random flash-theory:

Orde learns the GB wants to kill powerful beings, and that's all he knows (I propose). He says GB must be stopped.Kestora turned evil/insane and must be stopped.Proposed assumption that the RS can reach any MU-originated being nearby, not just ones that are currently in the giant robot (no real reason it would have such a limit).GB kills powerful beings to send them to the Red Star.To band together to fight and overthrow the Kestora.So that they could takeover the only remaining hyperdrive system near Spherus Magna -- either sub-theory or fact, I forget which, that the RS as booster to hyperdrive could function as that on its own.So that the GB could then reveal as a good guy, and captain the RS to fly to the offworld place the other GBs have left to.I know it's crazy and maybe it must be totally false... but that would so rock...This would sort of "redeem" Velika as a good guy despite being the murderer, though probably most of them would not want to trust him ever again if so and might fight him at the end, I'd think. But his motives may have been pure in an highly risky insane way. Plus he may have in mind to stop the Kestora from murdering revived people if that theory is right, and maybe this was the only way, so he might even be hailed as a hero, albeit a disturbing one.Thoughts?

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Disappointed by that update. The idea that dead characters can just be brought back to life, in fact were meant to be, just kind of spoils things. I mean what about Jaller's body? Could there theoretically be two Jallers? And surely this could be a medium by which Teridax could return, which I for one, don't want to see happen. He had an incredible run, but everyone should meet an end.

It is possible that Takutanuva simply had the power to restore Jaller's "essence" (and heal his body) before......he was resurrected in the Red Star. There must be some delay, for a new body had to be created. Jaller's AI could have simply been sent back before being placed into a new body.Also, I think this is an excellent development. What we need to know now is under what conditions a MU being's AI would be sent to the Red Star; is it only within the MU, or is it done by their own dying bodies, anywhere? If the latter, then I don't see a single character not left resurrected. It would make a good deal of sense for the GBs to have even Mata Nui's AI salvaged so they could possibly learn of what happened if he should die. With Teridax in his place, the same should apply. Matoro sacrificed his life, but perhaps not his AI. He could have been resurrected too.It also makes a lot of sense for regular MU beings to be restored, as their collective experiences are quite valuable.

Insane, crazy, random flash-theory:

Orde learns the GB wants to kill powerful beings, and that's all he knows (I propose). He says GB must be stopped.Kestora turned evil/insane and must be stopped.Proposed assumption that the RS can reach any MU-originated being nearby, not just ones that are currently in the giant robot (no real reason it would have such a limit).GB kills powerful beings to send them to the Red Star.To band together to fight and overthrow the Kestora.So that they could takeover the only remaining hyperdrive system near Spherus Magna -- either sub-theory or fact, I forget which, that the RS as booster to hyperdrive could function as that on its own.So that the GB could then reveal as a good guy, and captain the RS to fly to the offworld place the other GBs have left to.I know it's crazy and maybe it must be totally false... but that would so rock...This would sort of "redeem" Velika as a good guy despite being the murderer, though probably most of them would not want to trust him ever again if so and might fight him at the end, I'd think. But his motives may have been pure in an highly risky insane way. Plus he may have in mind to stop the Kestora from murdering revived people if that theory is right, and maybe this was the only way, so he might even be hailed as a hero, albeit a disturbing one.Thoughts?

Excellent. This would be awesome.a_peace.png Edited by bonesiii

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My guess is that at the end of the serial

Greg planned to have the Red Star destroyed or crippled in some way, so that we've got a decent and logical explanation as to what happened to MU inhabitants that died (a question that we've wanted answered for years, remember, especially regarding Jaller) but that we don't have hordes of dead characters coming back. Although I imagine Greg would have taken the opportunity to selectively bring back a few pet characters of his (Mavrah, etc) by having them escape/be rescued by Kopaka and Pohatu.

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This is really awesome news. But that has to stink if the dead beings are aware, because they can't get back out of the Red Star. I wonder if this will ever be used in a future storyline. Now that Mata Nui's body (the MU) is gone, what will happen to them?

I'm pretty happy with this.TAK



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People are forgetting that this explains a HUGE property in the Bionicle universe:

The mask of life cannot create or revive life in the universe because the spirit of a dead being is trapped in the red star, and there is a limited amount of information preventing the formation of new life. On the other hand, it's nature on Spherus Magna may be different. Also, Toa Ignika may be on the Red Star, based apon these concepts of spirits and the space they hold. Personally, I think the sacrifice of these characters is not in vain, since it is the actions of a character like Matoro are more important than the results. It's the fact that he took the risk, under the assumption of permanent distruction, that give his sacrifice worth. If someone sacrificed their life in the real world and in their will wished to cryogenically frozen, does not make that death anything less, because in both scenarios the chance of revival and return to the world is slim to none. A perfect parallel to this nature of sacrific would be the ending of Harry Potter.


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Insane, crazy, random flash-theory:

Orde learns the GB wants to kill powerful beings, and that's all he knows (I propose). He says GB must be stopped.Kestora turned evil/insane and must be stopped.Proposed assumption that the RS can reach any MU-originated being nearby, not just ones that are currently in the giant robot (no real reason it would have such a limit).GB kills powerful beings to send them to the Red Star.To band together to fight and overthrow the Kestora.So that they could takeover the only remaining hyperdrive system near Spherus Magna -- either sub-theory or fact, I forget which, that the RS as booster to hyperdrive could function as that on its own.So that the GB could then reveal as a good guy, and captain the RS to fly to the offworld place the other GBs have left to.I know it's crazy and maybe it must be totally false... but that would so rock...This would sort of "redeem" Velika as a good guy despite being the murderer, though probably most of them would not want to trust him ever again if so and might fight him at the end, I'd think. But his motives may have been pure in an highly risky insane way. Plus he may have in mind to stop the Kestora from murdering revived people if that theory is right, and maybe this was the only way, so he might even be hailed as a hero, albeit a disturbing one.Thoughts?

That would be creepy. But in theory, shouldn't this teleportation system only work within MU? Its main purpose is to sustain MN's life, not to teleport dead beings to RS...


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My thoughts on this twist are mixed. Whether or not I like it depends on whose still alive and who is not.Now, since the essence of the deceased person is needed to bring them back, then that means that Teridax, all the Karda Nui Makuta, and Matoro are permanently dead. The rest is uncertain. I personally hope that very few deceased characters are still alive; it would really cheapen death in the MU in general if no one died. Does that mean that everyone who died in the Matoran civil War, the Toa-Dark Hunter War etc. is still alive? I hope not. Moreso, if people who died suddenly came back, wouldn't their friends recognize them and wonder why they're back? Since Mavrah knew who he was, I assume the revived remember their identities, so wouldn't they talk about what happened? If so, how would the Red Star's purpose remain a secret?There are a lot of things that need to be explained.
Maybe they normally wipe all memories and do a clean reboot with new bodies, AKA hardware (maybe with the same same personality, but that's open to debate), and maybe Mavrah was a glitch.


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Insane, crazy, random flash-theory:

Orde learns the GB wants to kill powerful beings, and that's all he knows (I propose). He says GB must be stopped.Kestora turned evil/insane and must be stopped.Proposed assumption that the RS can reach any MU-originated being nearby, not just ones that are currently in the giant robot (no real reason it would have such a limit).GB kills powerful beings to send them to the Red Star.To band together to fight and overthrow the Kestora.So that they could takeover the only remaining hyperdrive system near Spherus Magna -- either sub-theory or fact, I forget which, that the RS as booster to hyperdrive could function as that on its own.So that the GB could then reveal as a good guy, and captain the RS to fly to the offworld place the other GBs have left to.I know it's crazy and maybe it must be totally false... but that would so rock...This would sort of "redeem" Velika as a good guy despite being the murderer, though probably most of them would not want to trust him ever again if so and might fight him at the end, I'd think. But his motives may have been pure in an highly risky insane way. Plus he may have in mind to stop the Kestora from murdering revived people if that theory is right, and maybe this was the only way, so he might even be hailed as a hero, albeit a disturbing one.Thoughts?

If he wanted them up there, and not dead, I don't see why he would carve memorial markers or call the universe "far better off" once they were dead. It's also a gamble that they would even get to the Red Star - wasn't it explicitly said that it only worked for the MU? The Kestora note that they can't send people back to Mata Nui because there the robot is rubble and there's nowhere to send them to.While Gaardus worked kind of like a mobile teleporting unit, the reason why everyone is stuck is because the MN receiver system is not working, since the Star obviously grabbing spirits as it should with Mavrah up there (and the people that got dissected for the Kestora to check why the system wasn't working). Unlike "mobile units" like Kanohi or beings with teleportation powers, it seems that he Red Star can only teleport people to inside of the Matoran Universe. Sounds like a fail-safe to me, so that if the teleporter malfunctioned the beings would stay in the star and not get beamed to who knows where.

Edited by Katuko

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Is it their life force specifically, or is it like a cloud storage system where their memories and character data is sent to the red star (like a collective server) to resend the data?

Edited by bonesiii

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But in theory, shouldn't this teleportation system only work within MU? Its main purpose is to sustain MN's life, not to teleport dead beings to RS...
Why would the designers of this system enforce an "in-MU-only" rule, if that is their concern? Let's think back to 2001. If one of the Toa Mata died in his canister in the Aqua Magna ocean, don't you think reviving him just might help sustain Mata Nui's life? :) The GBs had every reason to make sure this system covered their creations regardless of where they were, so the beings could continue to play their roles. If you're the Secret Service, you don't stop protecting the President just because he visits a foreign country, right?Now it's true that now that the giant robot's destiny is complete and it's devastated, the system is uneccessary, but why would the system know that? Chances are it's just a protodermic death sensor and teleporter that hands off beings to a reviver. No reason to assume the system is 'smart' enough to shut off now.Now maybe if they went way out of range, like to another star system, I would agree it couldn't work on them, but that's not what we're talking about.
wasn't it explicitly said that it only worked for the MU?
No. Again, here's the actual quote -- there's no "only"; he's just describing the normal situation (where they were always planned to be):
a being who died inside Mata Nui would be teleported to the red star
Keep in mind these beings were never supposed to be anywhere besides Mata Nui, and he's describing how the system was intended. This is all before the "unfortunately it didn't work as intended" line. It says positively that it works for beings in the giant robot. It does not say negatively that it does not work for anywhere else.And again, why would it be limited to just in the MU? Say someone steps inside the MU on SM now, and dies, but someone dies three feet away, outside the MU. It's the same type of being dying, same protodermis they're made out of, same distance and everything. If anything it should be easier for those outside since you don't have a massive robot skin in the way.It's possible Greg meant to imply "only", but that isn't what he said. And putting words into Greg's mouth has steered us wrong plenty of times in the past. ;)Plus, my theory would explain Greg's hint that Velika does not see his plan as evil. The old "eliminating risky powerful people" could kinda do that, but it would be more of a stretch than this. And the same serial was spending most of its time on this other mystery of the Red Star. IMO that's strong evidence for an intentional correlation. No?
If he wanted them up there, and not dead, I don't see why he would carve memorial markers or call the universe "far better off" once they were dead.
That's a good point. But there could be any number of other reasons to make such markers. Since he's now killing good guys, not bad guys, and there is risk involved, it could be out of a remainder of genuine care for them in case it didn't work. Or, it could be to throw off investigators.This does provide evidence for the killing off powerful people theory though, over the recruiting army & crew for RS theory.The memorial part, anyways. If he needs them to stop the Kestora and takeover the hyperdrive that would definitely explain the "better off" line. Obviously if this was true it would be another twist, but one that would make better sense of the motives of Velika from the clues we were originally given over just killing. Keep in mind Greg said that Orde saw it as evil -- not that "Orde knew it was evil though the GB didn't think so" but just Orde thought it was. And could, therefore, be somewhat wrong.
The Kestora note that they can't send people back to Mata Nui because there the robot is rubble and there's nowhere to send them to.
Doesn't this only support the theory? If they think there's nowhere to send them TO in the MU, then they probably think there was nowhere in the MU they could be sent from, therefore must have been teleported in from outside the MU. Yeah?But anyways, it can easily fit with the "intended purpose" theory, which may be all the Kestora truly understand. I suspect, though, that that conversation is just building up a reason to attack since I'm running off of the earlier theory that the Kestora have been wiping out revived people there (meaning there may be few left). They may have become addicted to killing and be just trying to add to excuses -- and maybe be insane. Their logic there doesn't make much sane sense to me, since the Send teleporter would be the one that would need repaired, but they act like it must be repaired because three beings came.Although maybe they meant they thought since Gaardus got away in the past (really with his own power) that the Send must be repaired. :shrugs: Regardless, the point is that the conclusion of what the Kestora said was "let's kill people", which supports that part of the theory and would explain the GB's motives -- either just to stop them from doing this, or to give a good excuse to fight them so he could take over the hyperdrive, or both.Yanno, here's a creepier twist on it that doesn't "rescue" him as a good guy -- maybe he just wants the hyperdrive and hopes the two groups will wipe themselves out to clear it. Although I would think he'd want a crew which is why I didn't take it this way earlier. :shrugs:
While Gaardus worked kind of like a mobile teleporting unit, the reason why everyone is stuck is because the MN receiver system is not working
So you're thinking it's like Star Trek teleporting from a pad to a pad, without the option to teleport to a non-pad destination?It's possible. It would make sense they could bring in dead bodies and/or spirits without that, but would need it to send out revived ones. I got the impression, though, that they needed to send the beings back to where they belong. Maybe even to the machines that make new beings? And we know those are intact.So even with pad-to-pad, the theory is still possible. And anyways, even if no receiving pad is operational, how does that really affect the theory, since it doesn't involve sending back anyways? The Receiving system could still operate anywhere in range, even if the Send is just to a single pad somewhere in the MU that may now be broken.Yeah?
Unlike "mobile units" like Kanohi or beings with teleportation powers, it seems that he Red Star can only teleport people to inside of the Matoran Universe. Sounds like a fail-safe to me, so that if the teleporter malfunctioned the beings would stay in the star and not get beamed to who knows where
I agree that's plausible (though unnecessary as teleportation has involved beings without pad machines in Bionicle plenty of times before), but my theory doesn't involve that function.
Maybe they normally wipe all memories and do a clean reboot with new bodies, AKA hardware (maybe with the same same personality, but that's open to debate), and maybe Mavrah was a glitch.
I don't think that works. Firstly, Jaller revived with all his memories, so we know it's possible. Secondly, if the purpose of this is to preserve useful units, why rob them of their useful experience?Say for sake of argument that Lhikan and Matoro are up there. Both, through their life journeys, became so devoted to good they sacrificed their lives to serve it. If you do a clean reboot, you just wasted all of that, and the new ones may take a totally different life path, becoming cowards, even villains (or, prior to that option as the GBs would think of it, glitching). Why would a wipe make any sense?
Also, Toa Ignika may be on the Red Star, based apon these concepts of spirits and the space they hold.
Toa Ignika's mind was Ignika's mind, which is still alive in the mask. His body died but not his spirit. Sort of like if a limb is amputated, the limb dies, but the person lives.Another theory/line of reasoning:I was thinking last night, I think we can answer the "what gets teleported To the RS?" question with some certainty as just the spirits, or just the brains. The original line was:
In addition, it necessarily had finite resources for producing new beings to replace any lost in accidents, etc.
Now this is a universe where Toa can aim a sword and create fire from constantly replenishing elemental energy. Physical resources cannot be a problem, IMO.Unless, possibly, their brains only are made of some material that is hard to produce.But masks can be easily remade. Bodies, re: the Mask of Life. Perhaps only the Mask of Life can otherwise make brains -- maybe even all the new-being machines tap into the Mask of Life to make brains, I dunno. But in general, physical components should be easy to make, probably including most organics.But spirit substances may be difficult to make, so although this doesn't prove that spirits alone can be teleported, it does give the best argument for what would need to be teleported, as I'd think any of the rest could just be created with some protodermic power similar to elemental powers. Maybe even sub-powers of Life.Also, in a recent topic it was firmly established, which I kinda forgot earlier here lol, that teleportation -- at least by Makuta -- can work on energy, like TSO's eyebeams. So yes, a teleporter that just grabs the spirits is possible.If this is right, then I think nearly any MU being is possible, except maybe Matoro (but again, Matoro may have been 'backed up' by that 777 stairs device). Teridax should still be considered ruled out by Greg's special confirmation he's dead, too.Beings with masks would simply have a time delay, or possibly the mask provides a secondary Send teleportation connection the system did work with. Take the Broken MU Pad theory for example. That would mean normal beings can't be sent back, but if intact masks only keep a connection to the spirits rather than waiting a while and letting the spirits loose (there was some confusion in past topics on this subject), then what happened with Jaller could be that some of Makuta's life-force simply activated this secondary Send option back to the mask.This would also provide an explanation for that UDD device where (in the movie verrsion) Takanuva was apparently revived after being crushed by the door too; the device would provide that connection. Perhaps in fact Makuta had studied this device, and reviving Jaller was just a short-range remote version of it via spending some life energy, maybe with some of his own teleportation mixed in. I would then imagine he would give a mental image of putting Takanuva's mask on there to the others there, which would explain how they knew to do that.Of course, there's also the book version where Takanuva didn't die at all (I think it was the book anyhow...). :shrugs: Anyways, more food for thought. ^_^

Edited by bonesiii

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Why would the designers of this system enforce an "in-MU-only" rule, if that is their concern? Let's think back to 2001. If one of the Toa Mata died in his canister in the Aqua Magna ocean, don't you think reviving him just might help sustain Mata Nui's life? :) The GBs had every reason to make sure this system covered their creations regardless of where they were, so the beings could continue to play their roles. If you're the Secret Service, you don't stop protecting the President just because he visits a foreign country, right?
And again, why would it be limited to just in the MU? Say someone steps inside the MU on SM now, and dies, but someone dies three feet away, outside the MU. It's the same type of being dying, same protodermis they're made out of, same distance and everything. If anything it should be easier for those outside since you don't have a massive robot skin in the way.
And it did presumably preserve them, though it could be noted that if the spirit-release comes from an MU system and not the body itself, then there could be a problem. The big issue is getting them back into the MU anyways, and that is where I believe the MU system has to act like a receiver. I could liken it to the sound system we've been wiring for my classes lately: The soundboard (MU) can broadcast sound (spirit) to the studio (Red Star) easily via the speaker system, but in order for the studio to return a sound signal via the wireless microphones (teleporter), the soundboard also has be connected to a receiver of some kind. If we assume that an MU spirit will be naturally dragged towards the Red Star once it leaves the body, then that does not necessarily mean that the same "pull" system can also be used to "push" to a specific destination. For that, the MU might be rigged with arrays of receivers so that the Kestora can pin-point a teleporter landing without having a visual of the place.
Plus, my theory would explain Greg's hint that Velika does not see his plan as evil. The old "eliminating risky powerful people" could kinda do that, but it would be more of a stretch than this. And the same serial was spending most of its time on this other mystery of the Red Star. IMO that's strong evidence for an intentional correlation. No?
Well, yes. There is little reason for the Red Star to be revealed as a spirit-gathering revivification device if the recently dead were not to appear, I suppose. But what of Tren Krom? Would he just get stuck in a new body too? He's shown that he can use his powers outside of the jelly body, but is he even safe to put in the Red Star if he knows how it works? Does Mata Nui himself know how it works/was supposed to work?
If he wanted them up there, and not dead, I don't see why he would carve memorial markers or call the universe "far better off" once they were dead.
That's a good point. But there could be any number of other reasons to make such markers. Since he's now killing good guys, not bad guys, and there is risk involved, it could be out of a remainder of genuine care for them in case it didn't work. Or, it could be to throw off investigators.
If he wanted to throw off the investigators he should not leave carvings at all, since that says "carver" rather than just "random criminal". If I killed someone, leaving something behind would not be a priority of mine unless I wanted to make a point. The question is then what point Velika is trying to make. If it is indeed as a token of gratitude to them, then that does reveal a bit of sympathy in his feelings, whether he wants to kill them permanently or not. His somewhat happy attitude towards the whole thing doesn't strike me as entirely benevolent, though. Instead of worrying if his plan might work, Velika's thoughts are more "my problem down here will soon be solved" than "I hope my problem up there will be solved by this".
The memorial part, anyways. If he needs them to stop the Kestora and takeover the hyperdrive that would definitely explain the "better off" line. Obviously if this was true it would be another twist, but one that would make better sense of the motives of Velika from the clues we were originally given over just killing.
I thought the Red Star was a booster engine (like the first stage of a multi-stage rocket) and not a hyper drive per se? Did Makuta use it when taking off as the MU?
The Kestora note that they can't send people back to Mata Nui because there the robot is rubble and there's nowhere to send them to.
Doesn't this only support the theory? If they think there's nowhere to send them TO in the MU, then they probably think there was nowhere in the MU they could be sent from, therefore must have been teleported in from outside the MU. Yeah?
Well, they only say that Pohatu and Kopaka are not supposed to be there, and are somewhat distressed to hear that they can't just beam them back. They don't mention much apart from having too many on board already and also having dissected some of those others in the past.
Their logic there doesn't make much sane sense to me, since the Send teleporter would be the one that would need repaired, but they act like it must be repaired because three beings came.
If they monitor life and death in the MU, then they likely knew that the three people who came were not recorded as dead beforehand. Without knowing exactly how the teleporter works, it's hard to say what they were thinking. The conversation goes as follows:- The Kestora say Gaardus is to blame for the system not working. He protests, saying he did not choose to come or go (since he was likely dead the last time). Perhaps it just happened to break when he arrived, or perhaps his teleportation ability interfered with the Red Star's teleportation in some way (or he got it in some sort of freak accident with the machinery, like how Zaktan turned to protodites after the Shadowed One tried to disintegrate him).- They then say the two Toa and Gaardus need to go, as they "got what they came here for". I can only assume this means new bodies, as the Kestora proceed to mention Mata Nui as the destination and were carrying weapons to defend themselves. (In case a revived being got out, like this? I'm just guessing.)- Pohatu interjects, saying that Mata Nui is rubble in the desert. The Kestora worry since they can't send them back anywhere, then say they have too many on board. One mentions dissection to find out why sending them back won't work (maybe because the Matoran Universe itself is not needed as a receiver, as you say, just the intended place for them to live), but they never get further than that.From what I gather (and with Pohatu's later line about "Lots of labs. Some old machinery, looks like it’s been jury-rigged a few hundred times."), they are trying to repair the place and just get things working again so that all the darn people will get back where they belong. If they have to permanently kill a few, no problem, they are "just bio-mechs". Amoral, perhaps; uncaring, definitely. I don't see the Kestora as evil just yet, just completely lacking in care for what their experiments might do.
Yanno, here's a creepier twist on it that doesn't "rescue" him as a good guy -- maybe he just wants the hyperdrive and hopes the two groups will wipe themselves out to clear it. Although I would think he'd want a crew which is why I didn't take it this way earlier. :shrugs:
Mavrah said "lots of unhappy people up here, you know", just after he rescued Kopaka and Pohatu from what I can only assume to be a mob of "undead", half-fixed beings.
So even with pad-to-pad, the theory is still possible. And anyways, even if no receiving pad is operational, how does that really affect the theory, since it doesn't involve sending back anyways? The Receiving system could still operate anywhere in range, even if the Send is just to a single pad somewhere in the MU that may now be broken.
I'm not sure what to think of it anymore, but it probably stems from me assuming a bit too much. If the system only works in the MU (as in, dying outside does not catch your spirit for reviving), then Velika would be almost confirmed to kill in order to kill permanently. If not, then that leaves things a lot more open and uncertain.
Of course, there's also the book version where Takanuva didn't die at all (I think it was the book anyhow...). :shrugs: Anyways, more food for thought. ^_^
The thing I really like is how this system would indeed explain how those people got revived, but I still don't like that it would essentially backup everyone who died. I'd like to think of it as on a time-limit as well: If the revive does not occur in time, the being gets wiped in some way. So Jaller and Takanuva would keep their memories, but someone like Lhikan (who is long dead) would start with no memories at all.Regarding new Matoran coming into being and Matoran being able to tell you how (as Greg once mentioned)... would this mean that a newly built Matoran recieves a spirit from the Red Star rather than having it created along with the body?

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Well, yes. There is little reason for the Red Star to be revealed as a spirit-gathering revivification device if the recently dead were not to appear, I suppose. But what of Tren Krom? Would he just get stuck in a new body too? He's shown that he can use his powers outside of the jelly body, but is he even safe to put in the Red Star if he knows how it works? Does Mata Nui himself know how it works/was supposed to work?
Worth noting that TK is the one that connected death by murderer to the Red Star in the first place. :PAnd I'd presume he's dangerous there too, and that the GB is counting on it so he'll be effective against the Kestora, but perhaps far less so. For one thing, the jelly form was huge, so if he's just downloaded into a humanoid body, he's much smaller, so he'd at least take up less physical space.
If he wanted to throw off the investigators he should not leave carvings at all, since that says "carver" rather than just "random criminal".
Well, I was thinking the fact that he's apparently doing something to the stone foundation of the fortress would inevitably scream "carver" to them anyways, so he would at least want to throw them off as far as his motives. True we don't know for sure how he rigged the foundation to fail, but I think it's likely he severely weakened it with knowledge of stone. Then perhaps a bomb to blow away the final stability remainder.
Velika's thoughts are more "my problem down here will soon be solved" than "I hope my problem up there will be solved by this".
Where does he give any clue as to where the problem is? I figure that since it's already established he's rapidly traveled vast distances, apparently by teleporter (I'm still thinking he stole the Spirit's Wish gate teleporation system, but perhaps it's not tied into the RS), that the location of his goal is not so relevant.Let's look at some of the quotes. I can think of one that does seem to hurt my theory off the top of my head, maybe, but most of it seems perfectly consistent:
No, what was important about that building was who else was inside it now. Axonn, Brutaka and Toa Helryx, veteran warriors; Makuta Miserix, with all the power that title implied; Artakha, wearer of the Mask of Creation; Toa Tuyet, who was mightier than any of the others knew; and Vezon, gifted with the ability to move through dimensions the way others move through air. So many beings of power, all in one spot … it was quite delicious.
Presuming he's been waiting a long time to stop the Kestora, this makes sense.
So far, he had killed Tren Krom and Karzahni… one a madman, the other a gelatinous mass of hot air. Neither proved to be much of a challenge. The Toa were keeping the whole thing quiet, as they often did. Although the two heroes investigating the murders, Kopaka and Pohatu, had recently vanished, he was not overly concerned. They would turn up eventually. The plan required it.
Interesting he doesn't say anything like "good riddance". Especially if my alternate idea that he hopes the two groups will wipe each other out is true -- maybe he hopes the villains will die, and tries to set some of them first, then as the Kestora are weakened, sends good guys.Also this last bit was what I thought hurt my theory, but it seems he doesn't know K&P are already on the RS, just "vanished."
In the same way, the sight of Toa Lewa being dragged off by nature-loving Agori was at best a minor obstacle. If need be, he would effect a rescue in some indirect way before the Toa of Air could get into any real jeopardy. The Toa Mata were too important to have their lives sacrificed needlessly. Oh, they would die, eventually, but it would be at a time of his choosing.
This strongly implies it's important they must die in just the right way so they can get teleported. If they didn't, their lives would be sacrificed needlessly. You could still make a case against the theory here though.
No one would ever suspect him, of course. No one ever had. As time passed and things had become clear to him, he had known this time would come.
Under this theory, the "things" would be why good guys weren't coming back, and possibly also that the Kestora were murdering them. And probably more importantly to him, that he would find the Kestora dangerous were he to personally try to go up and pilot the RS now.Yanno, he might not be thinking "crew" but simply hopes the good guys alone survive for the most part, then after a while get bored with the RS and come back down, leaving it alone or minorly guarded. Then Velika could take it when nobody's looking (except a few guards).Also, it's quite possible he does NOT want to return to the other GBs but rather wants to flee the planet before Angonce summons them and they may punish him for his choice long ago (or maybe a worse choice that made him flee them into the MU in the first place).
The most powerful would need to be eliminated individually – no point in risking the grand plan because he had missed one, after all – and the rest could be dealt with at leisure. He had expected it to be a time-consuming, if amusing, exercise, a sort of living strategy game in which only he knew the rules.Now, though, fate seemed to have altered the circumstances. So many of his targets, all in the same place, offered the opportunity to accelerate his timetable – much too good of an opportunity to miss. A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.
"Eliminated" could be taken against the theory, but I'm running under the assumption that any synonym of murder (of their original bodies) is fair game for him to use in his thoughts. The rest of this fits perfectly. The rules only he knows is what Greg revealed (with the sub-theory that it can pull dead beings in from SM). And "far better off" means ridding it of the truly murderous Kestora and even giving some old good guys a chance to get down to SM, as well as maybe other goals he has that he wants to pursue with hyperdrive.
I thought the Red Star was a booster engine (like the first stage of a multi-stage rocket) and not a hyper drive per se?
I'm thinking of it like a tugboat, which can serve as a booster engine for a larger boat, but only because it is its own engine. And unlike a space shuttle separating rocket, the RS isn't a one-time use, so it's more likely it can function on its own.Plus, again, it's made by the GBs, and keep in mind the #1 rule about them; Safeguards R Us.
The Kestora say Gaardus is to blame for the system not working. He protests, saying he did not choose to come or go (since he was likely dead the last time). Perhaps it just happened to break when he arrived, or perhaps his teleportation ability interfered with the Red Star's teleportation in some way (or he got it in some sort of freak accident with the machinery, like how Zaktan turned to protodites after the Shadowed One tried to disintegrate him).
I agree with those possibilties; I was thinking along the same lines. :) Given that he claims he didn't choose to go, maybe as soon as he was revived, his power automatically interacted with the Send teleporter, breaking it and sending him away to some random place.
They then say the two Toa and Gaardus need to go, as they "got what they came here for". I can only assume this means new bodies, as the Kestora proceed to mention Mata Nui as the destination and were carrying weapons to defend themselves. (In case a revived being got out, like this? I'm just guessing.)
I agree again. ^_^
Pohatu interjects, saying that Mata Nui is rubble in the desert. The Kestora worry since they can't send them back anywhere, then say they have too many on board. One mentions dissection to find out why sending them back won't work (maybe because the Matoran Universe itself is not needed as a receiver, as you say, just the intended place for them to live), but they never get further than that.
I take this to mean that they have enforced a sort of space rationing system, since it has limited size compared to the giant robot, and they are allowing some to live, but whenever someone new is revived here, they decide somehow who to kill to keep the ration stable. The send back comment here may simply refer to using their weapons as a threat to force Gaardus to return them the way he brought them, actually -- we might be getting distracted by that and taking it wrongly as referring to the broken Sender. Or maybe the confusing nature of this means that they are confused themselves between Gaardus's teleportation and the broken sender. Their arguing over it in the context of this part fits with that.
From what I gather (and with Pohatu's later line about "Lots of labs. Some old machinery, looks like it’s been jury-rigged a few hundred times."), they are trying to repair the place and just get things working again so that all the darn people will get back where they belong. If they have to permanently kill a few, no problem, they are "just bio-mechs". Amoral, perhaps; uncaring, definitely. I don't see the Kestora as evil just yet, just completely lacking in care for what their experiments might do.
Yeah, that's possible, but then permanently murdering people is generally considered evil. :P From their own perspective they might not be evil. But then, my theory is pitting a guy that's willing to kill in order to teleport people, so he need not rationally oppose them fully anyways.Also, I really think his endgame here is the theorized fully functional hyperdrive, and the Kestora would oppose his takeover of it.Let's walk through what would happen, assuming the Receiver works on SM.As he kills more beings like Karzahni, Tren Krom, and the Fortress Folk, the RS is getting more populated.This forces the Kestora to open fire, eventually, on the new revivals (ha ha pun, get it okay).This forces the new folks to fight back, and presumably wipe out the Kestora. Kopaka demonstrated at least that the Kestora are not impossible to beat (apparently) by any stretch. Thus most if not all of the people Velika sends survive.If he then just waits things out, eventually they'll figure out a way to leave the RS, perhaps via Gaardus's teleportation. Maybe Alternate Teridax. Plenty of ways, or maybe someone more inventive will figure out how to fix the teleportation. Maybe even Goldiflocks will be killed and he'll just wave his hand and fix it. :P The serial did start out with a mention of him, after all.Then, once the RS is mostly empty, Velika is free to come in and take it.
I'd like to think of it as on a time-limit as well: If the revive does not occur in time, the being gets wiped in some way. So Jaller and Takanuva would keep their memories, but someone like Lhikan (who is long dead) would start with no memories at all.
Cool idea!
Regarding new Matoran coming into being and Matoran being able to tell you how (as Greg once mentioned)... would this mean that a newly built Matoran recieves a spirit from the Red Star rather than having it created along with the body?
Well, I'm thinking there is a finite amount of this stable energy substance we call spirit in the MU, or at least that it's so difficult to make that that was the original idea and later they had to find a way to make it anyways. (Mata Nui did that is.) So the original idea would be to revive them so you wouldn't always have to make more, but probably there would still be a reserve for the "unfilled needs" reason, which would require new beings with new personalities.Yanno, somehow all of this also got me thinking about how Krana are organic and the old idea that that might be evidence all the other brains are organic too.What if what it teleports is just brains, and they're organic, and it's organics that is the difficult material to make? I kinda hinted at this possibility earlier but I was just brainstorming there. As a defined theory, maybe the only way to make a new brain -- with new personality, genetics-equivalent, etc. -- is for the Turaga to tap into some system that remotely accesses the Mask of Life? It would make the new brain and teleport it. But doing so might come with risks. A glitching "villain" unit might have attention drawn to it because of this activity, and the GBs preferred it to remain very secret.And I'm presuming that new brains act like stem cells to grow the rest of the organics in a new being, while the mechanical parts are manufactured (possibly materialized with elemental Iron power).This would explain why a system that circumvents that need might exist.Instead of tapping into the Mask of Life to bring new life to a new brain, it would teleport up brains from dead bodies (and maybe antidermis), take a bit of the brain material to "seed" the growth of a new brain, transfer the AI/memories/etc. to the new brain, and built a new body for it, then send back.This would also leave the rest of the original bodies as corpses. Only the brain would be taken, like a Bohrok without a Krana, but because most beings' brains are entirely encased in metal skulls, nobody would ever be likely to notice.If this possibility is true, it would rule out final Matoro (but again, that 777 stair thing might counter this up to that point), and again would rule out anybody like Teridax who was physically destroyed. But it would not rule out Skakdi and the like due to any mask rule.In fact if this was the case I suspect Lhikan would be there just fine -- and that masks just store connections to provide an alternate Send, so the fact that Lhikan's mask was kept would not be a problem at all, but simply would give more time during which he could be revived. I think I like that idea best if only because it rescues Vakama from creepily having 'double-killed' Lhikan by taking the mask, and is more consistent with past understandings of that. Jaller is exactly the same except that his revived body happened to get activated to teleport back down to his mask by Takutanuva.I also just had yet another theory but in typing the above I forgot it lol. I'm sure it'll come to me...

Edited by bonesiii

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And I'd presume he's dangerous there too, and that the GB is counting on it so he'll be effective against the Kestora, but perhaps far less so. For one thing, the jelly form was huge, so if he's just downloaded into a humanoid body, he's much smaller, so he'd at least take up less physical space.
If he retains his full special powers (laser beams and mind reading, etc) then all a humanoid body would do is make him more mobile. :)
Velika's thoughts are more "my problem down here will soon be solved" than "I hope my problem up there will be solved by this".
Where does he give any clue as to where the problem is? I figure that since it's already established he's rapidly traveled vast distances, apparently by teleporter (I'm still thinking he stole the Spirit's Wish gate teleporation system, but perhaps it's not tied into the RS), that the location of his goal is not so relevant.
In the same way, the sight of Toa Lewa being dragged off by nature-loving Agori was at best a minor obstacle. If need be, he would effect a rescue in some indirect way before the Toa of Air could get into any real jeopardy. The Toa Mata were too important to have their lives sacrificed needlessly. Oh, they would die, eventually, but it would be at a time of his choosing.
This strongly implies it's important they must die in just the right way so they can get teleported. If they didn't, their lives would be sacrificed needlessly. You could still make a case against the theory here though.
The most powerful would need to be eliminated individually - no point in risking the grand plan because he had missed one, after all - and the rest could be dealt with at leisure. He had expected it to be a time-consuming, if amusing, exercise, a sort of living strategy game in which only he knew the rules. Now, though, fate seemed to have altered the circumstances. So many of his targets, all in the same place, offered the opportunity to accelerate his timetable – much too good of an opportunity to miss. A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.
"Eliminated" could be taken against the theory, but I'm running under the assumption that any synonym of murder (of their original bodies) is fair game for him to use in his thoughts. The rest of this fits perfectly. The rules only he knows is what Greg revealed (with the sub-theory that it can pull dead beings in from SM). And "far better off" means ridding it of the truly murderous Kestora and even giving some old good guys a chance to get down to SM, as well as maybe other goals he has that he wants to pursue with hyperdrive.
His wording is indeed what makes me think he does intent to kill them permanently or at least disable them temporarily. Even in my thoughts, "eliminated" is not a word I would use to describe a being a knew was still alive or active in some way.
Pohatu interjects, saying that Mata Nui is rubble in the desert. The Kestora worry since they can't send them back anywhere, then say they have too many on board. One mentions dissection to find out why sending them back won't work (maybe because the Matoran Universe itself is not needed as a receiver, as you say, just the intended place for them to live), but they never get further than that.
I take this to mean that they have enforced a sort of space rationing system, since it has limited size compared to the giant robot, and they are allowing some to live, but whenever someone new is revived here, they decide somehow who to kill to keep the ration stable. The send back comment here may simply refer to using their weapons as a threat to force Gaardus to return them the way he brought them, actually -- we might be getting distracted by that and taking it wrongly as referring to the broken Sender. Or maybe the confusing nature of this means that they are confused themselves between Gaardus's teleportation and the broken sender. Their arguing over it in the context of this part fits with that.
The rationing does seem logical; after all, if your house or car or cardboard box or hard drive is full you need to make room when new things insist on pouring in.
From what I gather (and with Pohatu's later line about "Lots of labs. Some old machinery, looks like it's been jury-rigged a few hundred times."), they are trying to repair the place and just get things working again so that all the darn people will get back where they belong. If they have to permanently kill a few, no problem, they are "just bio-mechs". Amoral, perhaps; uncaring, definitely. I don't see the Kestora as evil just yet, just completely lacking in care for what their experiments might do.
Yeah, that's possible, but then permanently murdering people is generally considered evil. :P From their own perspective they might not be evil. But then, my theory is pitting a guy that's willing to kill in order to teleport people, so he need not rationally oppose them fully anyways.
If they were doing it out of necessity, and/or if they viewed the spirits/revived MU-inhabitants as just "constructs", then I wouldn't call the Kestora evil so much as simply pragmatic. Something like: "We have no space – we kill some spares. This Toa Lhikan guy is a hero, so let's wipe this random Matoran worker that just slacked on the job anyways."
As he kills more beings like Karzahni, Tren Krom, and the Fortress Folk, the RS is getting more populated.This forces the Kestora to open fire, eventually, on the new revivals (ha ha pun, get it okay).This forces the new folks to fight back, and presumably wipe out the Kestora. Kopaka demonstrated at least that the Kestora are not impossible to beat (apparently) by any stretch. Thus most if not all of the people Velika sends survive.
If they are really eliminating people as the star overfills, though, that means the Kestora would have had to put down all kinds of beings. Pohatu disarmed them easily and Kopaka froze them solid in a second, so their fighting ability would not count for much compared to whatever this mob of creatures is. I foresee it as people who "came back wrong", either directly because the Red Star is malfunctioning or because the Kestora have experimented a bit too much while trying to make the system work again.
Regarding new Matoran coming into being and Matoran being able to tell you how (as Greg once mentioned)... would this mean that a newly built Matoran recieves a spirit from the Red Star rather than having it created along with the body?
Well, I'm thinking there is a finite amount of this stable energy substance we call spirit in the MU, or at least that it's so difficult to make that that was the original idea and later they had to find a way to make it anyways. (Mata Nui did that is.) So the original idea would be to revive them so you wouldn't always have to make more, but probably there would still be a reserve for the "unfilled needs" reason, which would require new beings with new personalities.<Stuff about organic brains>
I agree that the system could indeed be used to make the organics somehow, but I'm not sure why it would teleport the grown brains rather than just a few cells to the presumed Matoran factories, if that's how it works. If bodies are made in the star, though, then I wonder how the machinery in the MU works. Maybe the Turaga just order the machine started and does not know exactly how it works. Maybe it just rumbles for a while and pops a Matoran out of a chamber. It's a shame that we won't get to know exactly how Matoran are made, since that would enable us to theorize further on how the spirit gets inserted and the organics grown. Organics in the MU are still Protodermis, though, so it could all be made out of the same basic substance, no problem. The "programming"/"soul"/"spirit" would be the hard part.… I wonder if the Kestora can subdue the revivification, leaving only backed-up/caught spirits in a bodyless form? But if the whole or parts of the body gets teleported from the MU in order to reuse resources, that would not work either.

Edited by Katuko

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His wording is indeed what makes me think he does intent to kill them permanently or at least disable them temporarily. Even in my thoughts, "eliminated" is not a word I would use to describe a being a knew was still alive or active in some way.
This is why I'm thinking he hopes the Kestora will wipe out the villains first. Sending them individually. Of course, he does say he intended to send the others individually too, so yeah... But it also implies this was not the time he planned to take on the Fortressers. He may have planned to kill several more villains one at a time first, so they would just whittle the Kestora down a little while the Kestora would by force of numbers kill off the villains, eliminating them.Here's another thing. If it was just "destroy the powerful beings" as it seems, then why say that only he knows the rules? It would seem more likely that everybody would think of that immediately, since he's been targeting powerful beings. The RS theory would bring sense to that statement. There could be other explanations, though.Oh, I remember the other theory now. Since I'm already thinking he has taken the Spirit's Wish teleporter device, what if he is using this to override a theoretical limit (if it exists) on the Receive RS teleporter, to ensure their spirits go there? Even though they're outside the MU? (Not that I think there is such a limit, but yeah.)I think it's pretty clear, actually, that Tren Krom at least was sent to the Red Star. Why else would, at the moment of death, this Psionic being have an image of the Red Star?If TK's brain or spirit or whatever was being teleported there, that's exactly what you'd expect him to think about. Especially since he knows Gaardus is there; maybe he is hoping to recruit K&P to help him survive the Kestora, via Gaardus? It's like leaving and saying "come here to find me" -- and under my theory, a plea for help, in fact.
If they were doing it out of necessity, and/or if they viewed the spirits/revived MU-inhabitants as just "constructs", then I wouldn't call the Kestora evil so much as simply pragmatic. Something like: "We have no space – we kill some spares. This Toa Lhikan guy is a hero, so let's wipe this random Matoran worker that just slacked on the job anyways."
Actually, looking at their reaction when the Toa first arrived, I think we can answer this:
As soon as they saw the two Toa and their winged companion, they seemed to grow very alarmed.“What are you doing here?” one of the beings asked. “You need to go back. You should be gone by now.”“No,” said another. “Don’t you remember what happened the last time? They wouldn’t go back and we had to --”The third interrupted, pointing at Gaardus. “That one has been here before. He was the last. He must know why no one can go now.”“But look at them!” said the first to speak. “It must be working again, or how could they be here like that?”
I'm wondering if the Kestora are just suffering from some kind of a mental condition that makes them lose their grips on reality and memory. Presumably deaths happened recently enough you'd think they'd be fully familiar with it. So they might be more insane than evil, but either way, still dangerous.Incidentally, that last line may imply the Receiver has not been working in a while... :shrugs: That would certainly blow my theory out of the water...Here's another possibility though. What if normally the Kestora are supposed to check the consciousnesses prior to revival? And simply not revive majorly glitched ones -- villains now? It would be hard to see how this would work with my theory. But it's possible. Maybe they've been forgetting to do this, or decided not to, for a while, and may have forgotten that it doesn't run automatically? Possibly some good guys, like Mavrah, may have comandeered it and be filtering who comes in.If so, the "eliminated" line is cast in yet another new light...If not, though, I would think it must be automatic based on the wording, and would still work with my theory. Anywho...
If they are really eliminating people as the star overfills, though, that means the Kestora would have had to put down all kinds of beings.
But not all at once. (At least usually. :P)

Edited by bonesiii

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Here's my take on this:

What if the "malfunction" is not originally in the Red Star, but instead in the Kestora? A personality defect after the initial wave of beings couldn't return would stop them from trying to fix the problem, instead likely making them focus on "house-cleaning" the red star.This brings me to my next point: Greg confirmed that Velika was "doing some house cleaning" in killing Karzahnii/Tren. Perhaps this is a defect it's Velika's idea to "fix?"Alternately (I'll admit that's unlikely), Velika could have sent the telepathic flash instead of Tren (remember that GBs are capable of telepathic communication with their creations) to lure Pohatu and Kopaka to the Star, where they could be... killed? Stored?...Saved from Marendar?


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This explains how Jaller was revived and why Lhikan was not. There was no ghost posessing the mask, Vakama must have known how to make the teleporter work.


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Oh my. I assume that those who fulfilled their destinies wouldn't have to go there to be reincarnated. So the Kestora probably killed them again and that's probably what Kopaka saw. I also assume that those who died on the island of Mata Nui wouldn't go there since it's not inside him.PS: These bits of the story being released make me think we might get either new chapters or a story summary of what comes afterwards at some point.

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This explains how Jaller was revived and why Lhikan was not. There was no ghost posessing the mask, Vakama must have known how to make the teleporter work.
We already knew why Jaller was and Lhikan wasn't -- nobody / nothing like Takutanuva provided a large reserve of energy to power a revival via the mask.And that distinction remains true now. :)
What if the "malfunction" is not originally in the Red Star, but instead in the Kestora? A personality defect after the initial wave of beings couldn't return would stop them from trying to fix the problem, instead likely making them focus on "house-cleaning" the red star.
That makes a lot of sense. Maybe they forgot that they were supposed to fix it, after a number of failed attempts.BTW, many of yall have been saying that those whose destinies were fulfilled wouldn't be revived. I doubt that is logical. Destiny making sure a unit fulfills its special, high priority function is not the same thing as making a unit useless. The MU still needs its population to keep it functioning with general repairs, and Greg's reasoning still applies that there are limited resources to make new beings.To give something close to a best case scenario, say a Toa of Iron fulfills his destiny, and does not need to sacrifice his Toa Energy to become Turaga. Remains a Toa.Then dies.Is revived and (under the GB's intended design, though this didn't work indefinitely) teleported back.Even though his destiny is fulfilled, he can still easily make metal whenever needed, in whatever shape needed, repair flaws in existing metal, absorb old metal to recycle it to new, etc. In a giant robot, whose population exists as maintenance workers, this makes sense. Regardless of special "mission" destinies.

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Guys, I'd suggest trying not to judge this as a human sitting here in the real world, but try to imagine yourself in the shoes of the actual characters. There's a very real problem sometimes with fans who try to turn everything that happens in stories into mere plot devices in their minds, and "tune out" from the experience as it's intended.
Isn't that...normal? I mean, all this time I've been pointing out direct flaws in Greg's writing, both in style and content. To be honest, I have no idea what you mean by "the intended experience". Isn't that supposed to be the actual writing? How am I supposed to not pay attention to the plot, exactly?
In other words, topics asking which characters you didn't want to die are kinda fun as a side issue, but shouldn't really play a role in judging the story seriously. Within the "in-shoes" perspective, it's pretty obvious that deaths have meaning that isn't robbed at all... and that you would want to be able to come back, etc. No Ko-Matoran is going to go "Oh I wish Matoro didn't have any chance of coming back to life, that cheapens his sacrifice!" :lol:
How exactly does that justify bad writing? Let's go back to that Superman: The Movie example. It doesn't matter how hard Clark Kent cries when Lois Lane gets buried under a landslide. By bringing her back, her death was made meaningless no matter which way you slice it. Yes, of course if you were Superman you wouldn't say "Well, Lois' death sure made this scene more memorable. I guess I'm glad she's dead." But that doesn't make any difference whatsoever as to how it appears and leaves an impact on the reader.
Sorry, pet peeve. :P But I guess my point is, what really cheapens things like this is when we fans take too seriously these outside-the-story considerations.
There's a difference between taking real world considerations too seriously and actually knowing how good writing effects your audience. The whole "in-shoes" argument really only works when you consider character decisions and try to reason why they would make those decisions. Identify with them, in other words. For instance, if I said that Matoro should not have chosen to die, that makes an excellent argument to lead into (He saw no other choice, he was desperate, he wanted to save his friends, etc.)
Also, it's fiction, filled with fictional possibilities we don't have here, like elemental powers. Science fiction is filled with such things. Should there be a rule against exploring the idea of consciousnesses being downloaded into new bodies, like Star Trek has had, or Avatar, just because it isn't possible in real life? (As far as you know. :P) If you take that thinking to its logical conclusion, aren't you really saying sci-fi and fantasy fiction shouldn't be done?
I'm never said that it is impossible in-story. Science fiction carries its own stigma of suspension of disbelief and I'm perfectly fine with accepting things like time-travel, elemental powers, mutant superpowers or machines that let you enter dreams. That has no relevance to what I'm saying. What I am saying that it was a bad choice by Greg to write it in in the first place because it subverts the entire purpose of having a character die.
Say your grandmother dies in a house fire. Does having a story about a Toa who has fire resistance affect that real-life situation at all? Do you ban the idea of fictional characters with fire resistance because of it?Of course not.
There's a difference between disliking something because of personal dissonance and commenting on a trope that applies to every living human. You're trying to make it out like I'm saying Aunt May should have never died because of a shooting because my mother was shot and killed. What I'm actually saying is that she (as well as Harry Osborn) shouldn't have been resurrected just because Spider-Man literally sold his marriage to the devil. That's just sloppy storytelling.Yes, I use way too many superhero comic book references in my arguments. Honestly, that's because they have possibly the most absurd, contrived and shoe-horned resurrections in media history. There have been a few done right, but a ton more of them done wrong. And BIONICLE is definitely doing it wrong.When an author kills a main character, he wants to punctuate a scene. He wants to make it memorable, to evoke a feeling that not many other situations can give a reader. That's because death is supposed to be the ultimate in all high stakes. The thought that this character is never coming back is what drives the point home. Greg could have easily made the Mask of Life work like the Mask of Time and just let Matoro wear it, restore Mata Nui, then go home. If he just wanted to make it a heroic sacrifice, he could have easily made him lose something (elemental power, Toa form, etc.)But Greg made him die because he wanted to really push that scene into our minds in a way nothing but death could have done. And even if Matoro isn't alive on the Red Star, the fact that we have a place where literally anyone who's death we thought was absolute could come back cheapens that scene. It doesn't matter what the other characters would feel. That has nothing to do with poor writing and how its received.Final example:At the end of Episode III, Anakin Skywalker awakens as Darth Vader. He asks about Padme, then when the Emperor tells him he's killed her, he screams a large "NOOOOOOO".You can make the case that Anakin was heartbroken that his wife had died. Yes, that is obviously the case. But that doesn't make the scene any less...well, kind of silly. Its not what the character feels, or what you would do in that position. Its the scene itself and the misdirected writing.They recently edited the Original Star Wars Trilogy (again!) to make Darth Vader utter that same "NOOOOOOO" when the Emperor is electrocuting Luke at the end of Episode VI. Again, its not the character motives or what they felt. Its the writing and the directive choice that makes that scene that much less dramatic. We even now have a previous, unedited scene to compare it to and the difference is striking.Basically bad writing is bad writing and it putting yourself in the character's shoes is kind of pointless because they would be sad in both works with good writing and works with bad writing.

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How exactly does that justify bad writing?
The writing has stopped, Kahi. We'd best get used to that and move on now. :) The style of presentation is not what's the issue here anymore, but the basic idea of it. If it had been written into the story as intended then we could judge the quality of the writing.
Let's go back to that Superman: The Movie example. It doesn't matter how hard Clark Kent cries when Lois Lane gets buried under a landslide. By bringing her back, her death was made meaningless no matter which way you slice it. Yes, of course if you were Superman you wouldn't say "Well, Lois' death sure made this scene more memorable. I guess I'm glad she's dead." But that doesn't make any difference whatsoever as to how it appears and leaves an impact on the reader.
What I'm saying is pretty simple. Both when they die and if they get revived, the best approach is to connect emotionally with the situation through the eyes of the characters. To be true to the story itself -- yes, quality of presentation is an important issue but that's not what we're talking about here.And if you do that, you can feel the intense wonder and joy he would feel as they get revived! Not just as a reader going "yay my favorite character is back" but in a deeper, more meaningful way. :)I think you would want to connect with the characters as a sacrificial hero dies, right? You would want to understand the sense of loss they would have. Likewise, within the context of fiction at least, if they come back to life, why disconnect from the character POV only then? Think of it like in a real-world hospital, if it helps, if someone fades out but they do a bunch of quick doctery things and they come back. It's like that but in a more extended sci-fi way. :)In other words, a loved one coming back to life definitely can have an emotional impact on the reader too! It's all about whether you as the reader choose to allow yourself to engage with the story or not. If you do, you can get that positive in-world reaction out of it. If you don't -- well, then that probably depends on your tastes anyways, as a lot of people will be happy that their favored characters are back, so there's really no objective reason not to do it there either...Now again, there's definitely a lot to be said for style of presentation to help that, but we don't know how it would have been styled now, so we need to suspend that to judge this realistically. Obviously at this point it's clear Greg does not think he'll have time to continue them anytime soon. (Besides, taste will likely play a role there too.)I just try to think of these things as a writer and from my principles of being true to a world as I write. Imposing a rule against reviving beings because -- from an outside-story perspective -- someone might not like it as a plot device, to me, would be fake authorial guiding. I'm very big on only doing, and only limiting, a story to what is true to the world. This is true to the world for many reasons -- both from the pure tech perspective and from the more meaningful personhood perspective. Therefore there should be NO artificial rule against it. :)
What I am saying that it was a bad choice by Greg to write it in in the first place because it subverts the entire purpose of having a character die.
How? Are you sure you have understood the purposes as intended for having characters die? And again, are you thinking out-story or in? In-story, a hero who dies to save someone else still saved them. And likely the person would love to see them revived. Thank them, and just they would be sad that they in any way caused the hero's death.(And again, this revelation doesn't time travel into your past. :P You still had the reaction you had at the time. Now it's time to remain engaged with the story so you can have a new positive reaction. ^_^
There's a difference between disliking something because of personal dissonance and commenting on a trope that applies to every living human. You're trying to make it out like I'm saying Aunt May should have never died because of a shooting because my mother was shot and killed.
No, I'm saying that the reasoning you're using should logically apply to that as well. Yet you haven't done so, and this makes your argument inconsistent. Thus, it shouldn't be used. :) Please don't try to turn this into an argument, Kahi, okay? ^_^ Just trying to help you see a way to look at it that could help you enjoy it better, the way intended, the like. :)
That's because death is supposed to be the ultimate in all high stakes.
The point is, this is a rule you as the fan have made in your mind (likely borrowed from others). And again, it's an artificial rule that's out-story, that turns stories into authorial guiding rather than being true to what would or could actually happen. IMO that is exactly the way to start on the path to bad writing... It's like Deus Ex Machina, a rescuing plot rule to ensure a character will not die by authorial guiding, except in reverse -- a plot rule to ensure a character will not come back by authorial guiding.Ultimately, fiction can explore possibilities of revival. Period. :) Doing so does NOT make bad writing. Bad writing makes bad writing. (And we don't have any here to judge.)[Edit: Besides, Bionicle already established in 2003 that revival is within the bounds of its genre. So Bionicle especially has the right to explore it. :) You can't really get out of this one. :P]Maybe what's really going on here is that you have already decided based on past story that you personally don't like Greg's style of writing? And you're sort of thinking of how this hypothetically would have been written by Greg? In other words, it's not about this choice at all, but you're really just going back to your dislike of Greg's writing?If so, it's basically off-topic here. Something for you to consider. :) I've been getting this vibe from several of you lately. I suggest separating your taste about Greg's style of presentation from Greg's choices of what ideas to use. You admitted revival can be done right. So the idea itself is not something you oppose -- well, the idea itself is all we have to judge here. So, we could just agree that IF it had been written in story you likely would not have liked its presentation, yeah? :)But we could also agree, couldn't we, that this idea COULD be presented in a way you'd enjoy? Maybe? =)Edit: BTW, it may help to add that I personally don't enjoy Greg's style of presentation quite as much as the type of style I try to aim for in my own fanfics. But I do enjoy it enough to read it and want more -- and more importantly, I love love love the brilliant ideas he comes up with, especially this one! The twists are great. Not always presented with as much focus on the emotion the characters would have as I would do though. There are many things I think Greg could improve on, that I take as rules for my own writing (as far as presentation mainly).

Edited by bonesiii

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I don't know, bones, that wasn't the vibe I was getting from Kahi's argument. :/


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Try thinking of it this way, to add on to my previous post -- make sure you don't mix up the different things that are being judged here; it seems to me you have. Why not? Because even if you judge one question negatively, you could, if you keep from mixing up the ideas, judge another question positively, and get more enjoyment out of it. :) (The point of entertainment.)I see three major questions here:1) Do you enjoy Greg's typical style writing? (Methinks your answer is overall no? Mine is overall yes, enough to wish for more, but it's not perfect.)2) Can you enjoy this idea itself, in-story, independent of presentation style? (Methinks we could all answer yes, probably, though some might have a harder time doing so, but if you put yourself in the characters' shoes, this would be wonderful, wonderful news!)3) Can you enjoy this idea itself, out-story? (Methinks your answer is no, based on what you've said, overall? To me, big yes, but I can still get the out-story idea of it ruining finality. ---- Of course, finality ruins other out-story ideas too, so there's always pros and cons. Thus I don't judge stories based on such things but rather on whether the ideas make sense in-story. If they do, then the balance is to the pros, and this qualifies. :) Plus, dwelling on 'ruins' starts you off on a negative footing to begin with so it's unwise IMO. Better to start from a 'builds' perspective with all of them. ^_^)Angel Bob: Well, could you elaborate? :) He said over and over again he was talking about "bad writing", even the "NOOOO" example (in which the basic content of what happens is the same, but the style of presentation is not). Yet here we have no writing at all, just a sketch of the canon idea that would have eventually come out in writing. The argument as he presented it doesn't seem to apply here...Also, we should keep in mind that "bad writing" is a much more complex idea than just appealing to some of yall's tastes to judge that, and to some extent quality is in the eye of the beholder; to someone who has the tastes to like the "NOOO" thing the change would obviously be an improvement. I have my own theories on it but the point is, the whole issue is off-topic here; the quality of writing is not the subject of this topic. :)

Edited by bonesiii

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So this function of the Red Star somehow made Teridax feel killing his fellow Makuta off was less risky? I wonder how so.


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So this function of the Red Star somehow made Teridax feel killing his fellow Makuta off was less risky? I wonder how so.
Well, I'd suggest starting by asking what possible reasons killing other Makuta would be risky?My first thought when I heard that was that from Teridax's POV, killing the others wouldn't really seem risky at all, except that he was getting rid of potential guards, should he need them.

Edited by bonesiii

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Well, Tren Krom would not go to the Red Star, because his mind is not software like the nanotech; he is completely organic. (Same goes for the Makuta.) For that reason, I doubt that Velika's intent was to send them to the Red Star.


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Well, Tren Krom would not go to the Red Star, because his mind is not software like the nanotech; he is completely organic. (Same goes for the Makuta.) For that reason, I doubt that Velika's intent was to send them to the Red Star.
"Nanotech" has only ever been a metaphor, MV. It describes their purpose in the MU (and surely could apply to TK too). But they have always been alive, and even sapient, just not "fully sapient/freewilled/whatever-it-is". And organic brains have "software" too. In fact when you have fully sapient, humanlike intelligences, it doesn't matter if the hardware is organic, biomechanical, or entirely machine; it's the same basic software either way.And we don't know what the other beings' brains are. The only example we have is Bohrok who have organic Krana brains, as well as totally robotic functions that can also process commands without a Krana -- and Bohrok were once Av-Matoran. It may be that Av-Matoran brains were always robotic, or that they were originally organic like Krana.So basically, being organic or not may be completely irrelevant. Also, the TK argument wouldn't apply to Karzahni or the Fortress beings.

Edited by bonesiii

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Somehow this reminds me of the Altars in Warcraft 3. If a hero dies they can be revived at one. Similar with beings of the Emerald Dream like Cenarius. I can't help but wonder, since Greg does apparently play WoW, if he drew inspiration from them.

Edited by Makuta_of_Oz

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Here's something else to consider:

The two Toa had gone about a hundred yards when the lights suddenly went out. Now they could hear movement from all around them. There were whispers, too, but they couldn’t make out the words. Kopaka triggered his Akaku Nuva, piercing the walls around him with x-ray vision. In one direction, there was nothing to see but outer space. In the other, he saw things – a lot of things – he could have lived without seeing. When he spoke, his voice was raw.“We need to move,” said Kopaka. “Now.”“What’s the matter?”“You don’t want to know. Grab my hand. We’re finding a way out of this.”The sounds were coming closer now. Some sounded like rodents skittering, others like bodies being dragged across a metal floor. At one point, they saw a lighted corridor up ahead, but as they approached, the lights went off there too. Worse, the noises were starting to come from up ahead as well as behind.“I think we are surrounded,” said Kopaka.“We’re never surrounded,” Pohatu answered. “We just prefer to be right in the center of the action.”A sliver of light opened up off to the right. It revealed a small figure, beckoning to the two Toa. “Here, this way.”Kopaka used the Akaku and saw that there were no other figures in the room beyond. If it was a trap, it probably wasn’t a very good one. The two Toa headed for the door and slipped inside. The figure closed it behind them.“It’s not safe out there,” their rescuer said. “But then you probably figured that out. A lot of very unhappy people up here, you know.”The Toa saw to their surprise that their “host” was not a Kestora, but a Matoran. An Onu-Matoran, to be exact, but not one that either recognized.“Who are you?” asked Pohatu. “What are you doing here?”“As far as the second question goes, I presume the same thing you are,” said the Matoran. “As for who I am – my name is Mavrah.”
Now, I think it's crystal clear that these were revived beings, and villains -- and maybe some who might not have been villains originally. But I'm wondering if they haven't been "coming out right". Some of that makes me wonder if they're deformed.Plus, the Kestora seemed to think that the Sender failing was due to something wrong with the Revived, not a mere machine somewhere. What if that's actually true somehow? Not sure how exactly, but physical deformities (causing some to have to kinda drag themselves along like the Toa Mata after the first moments of the canisters opening) might go along with it as a side effect, for the more recent ones.Of course, it's possible these are merely injured due to fighting amongst themselves too.But if I'm on the right track, then it's possible all recent revivals have come out wrong, after Mavrah's time. And maybe even stopped working for a while; part of what one Kestora said might imply that.So, the Receiver (whether of spirits or brains or bodies or what) might still be operating, while the Reviver might be what's actually wrong.Perhaps something slightly wrong in the brains of the Revived, for a long time, after Gaardus came there first (whether he was involved or not), including wrong in Mavrah's brain, makes them unable to leave.If that's the case, then since Kopaka & Pohatu are not revived, maybe they can still find the teleporter and leave? Without Gaardus?And if it's true that the Reviver hasn't been working lately -- and the Kestora have stopped trying, since to revive any more means overcrowding and more need to kill -- maybe Velika actually chose Tren Krom, while near Gaardus, specifically to lure K&P up there, and fix the Reviver, so TK could be revived in time? Then he would keep sending powerful beings up (originally planned it to be a longer process) and the rest of my earlier theory could proceed.This would make sense of what right now appears to be mere coincidence of the whole timing of who is near when TK is killed and even why choose TK. (He had helped the Toa recently, so they have more motive to try to help him back.)Karzahni may have been merely to set up for framing Lesovikk.Some of the earlier lines do imply he didn't expect K&P to "vanish", but not necessarily. The narrator couldn't be too clear about it if I'm right lest it give things away to the reader.In his original plan, then, after using TK to lure K&P up, he would kill a good guy, and since they've learned from Mavrah what the RS is, and that (in my theory) the Reviver needs fixed, they now have even stronger reason to fix it. Then he could keep killing good guys, and when they fix it, these stored spirits could be revived all at once, and take back the RS from both the villains and the Kestora.Or even just the villains come to think of it.

Edited by bonesiii

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Hmm, I'm not sure how I feel about this own. On the one hand, it kind of feels like a big part of Bionicle just completely reversed directions.

Forgive me if this has been answered elsewhere (I don't have time to go through the whole topic yet), but has this always been the plan from year one? Just curious.And it brings to mind the question of who's been revived and who hasn't- I wouldn't mind seeing Ancient, Lhikan of course, or Naho in story.

Edited by TLhikan

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has this always been the plan from year one?
We don't know. But:

It seems likely it was planned since at least 2003, given Jaller's revival in MOL.

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The level of negativity on this site is insulting, and these constant statements that Greg storytelling is ruining one's childhood memories is ridiculous. Characters only really started dying in 07, this hardly ruins anything close to ones " childhood". Also, this opens up possibilities in the same manner as mystery and mysticality of earlier years, and unlike revelations like the booster nature of the star this adds neccessary and interesting story elements. Haven't there been so many complaints about Bionicle abandoning it's cultural roots? In my opinion this is a nice middle point between, and people are judging this without thinking the whole thing through.What I said before, this explains some cool things:The mask of life cannot create or revive life in the universe because the spirit of a dead being is trapped in the red star, and there is a limited amount of information preventing the formation of new life.&#160;&#160;On the other hand, it's nature on Spherus Magna may be different. Also, Toa Ignika may be on the Red Star, based apon these concepts of spirits and the space they hold. Personally, I think the sacrifice of these characters is not in vain, since it is the actions of a character like Matoro are more important than the results. It's the fact that he took the risk, under the assumption of permanent distruction, that give his sacrifice worth. If someone sacrificed their life in the real world and in their will wished to cryogenically frozen, does not make that death anything less, because in both scenarios the chance of revival and return to the world is slim to none.&#160;&#160;A perfect parallel to this nature of sacrific would be the ending of Harry Potter.

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has this always been the plan from year one?
We don't know. But:

It seems likely it was planned since at least 2003, given Jaller's revival in MOL.

Okay, good point. Thanks. -TLhikan

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Here's another thing. If it was just "destroy the powerful beings" as it seems, then why say that only he knows the rules? It would seem more likely that everybody would think of that immediately, since he's been targeting powerful beings. The RS theory would bring sense to that statement. There could be other explanations, though.
Only Velika knows the where, when and how the murders will occur. In that sense, he makes the rules, if we can call the "game" his killing spree. In Death Note, for example, the whole case is described by a game of sorts, despite everyone (both the killer and the investigators) knowing that he kills people he view as deserving criminals (and then he descends into "anyone who gets in my way" soon enough). What they don't know, and what makes it a game, is how/where/when/to whom each murder will be done or even if the killer has help or not. They suspect he is one of their own. The entire series is a speed chess game with a lot of fake pieces.
I think it's pretty clear, actually, that Tren Krom at least was sent to the Red Star. Why else would, at the moment of death, this Psionic being have an image of the Red Star?
I had forgotten that detail. I agree that the vision must have some significance, even if it's just that TK was thinking of the Red Star because he was dying. It does not 100% confirm that he is up there yet, but it does make it more likely.
If they were doing it out of necessity, and/or if they viewed the spirits/revived MU-inhabitants as just "constructs", then I wouldn't call the Kestora evil so much as simply pragmatic. Something like: "We have no space – we kill some spares. This Toa Lhikan guy is a hero, so let's wipe this random Matoran worker that just slacked on the job anyways."
Actually, looking at their reaction when the Toa first arrived, I think we can answer this:
As soon as they saw the two Toa and their winged companion, they seemed to grow very alarmed.“What are you doing here?” one of the beings asked. “You need to go back. You should be gone by now.”“No,” said another. “Don’t you remember what happened the last time? They wouldn’t go back and we had to --”The third interrupted, pointing at Gaardus. “That one has been here before. He was the last. He must know why no one can go now.”“But look at them!” said the first to speak. “It must be working again, or how could they be here like that?”
I'm wondering if the Kestora are just suffering from some kind of a mental condition that makes them lose their grips on reality and memory. Presumably deaths happened recently enough you'd think they'd be fully familiar with it. So they might be more insane than evil, but either way, still dangerous.Incidentally, that last line may imply the Receiver has not been working in a while... :shrugs: That would certainly blow my theory out of the water...
I'm surprised that you draw the conclusion of insanity from that reaction, since there is nothing insane about it. Two powerful beings that they did not expect to be dead (yet) and certainly not running around in their base has just come through the door. But they seem more concerned about Gaardus, who apparently messed things up something fierce the last time he was there, and thus they would be wondering what problems this might cause. If I might use my media experience again:Yesterday we were setting up some speakers and stuff, and had some problems with feedback from the microphones if they got too close to each other. One of them was of a different type, and it made our ears hurt when it suddenly feedback'd the system to the max. We ditched using that one and frantically stopped someone else from plugging it in later. Gaardus is the same way: the Kestora views him as a liability that can really smart if he's allowed to do his thing, and therefore they react quickly and desperately.
If they are really eliminating people as the star overfills, though, that means the Kestora would have had to put down all kinds of beings.
But not all at once. (At least usually. :P)
I was thinking stored spirits would be in stasis for a while before reaching the front of the queue for getting new bodies. During that time, the Kestora could likely flush it, so to speak. Shooting the revived being wouldn't make sense if they'd just revive again.
How exactly does that justify bad writing?
The writing has stopped, Kahi. We'd best get used to that and move on now. :) The style of presentation is not what's the issue here anymore, but the basic idea of it. If it had been written into the story as intended then we could judge the quality of the writing.
I agree that we should not judge the whole thing based on a few lines of notes from unpublished canon, but the idea does cheapen some deaths... if it had been working and the characters knew of it.
Let's go back to that Superman: The Movie example. It doesn't matter how hard Clark Kent cries when Lois Lane gets buried under a landslide. By bringing her back, her death was made meaningless no matter which way you slice it. Yes, of course if you were Superman you wouldn't say "Well, Lois' death sure made this scene more memorable. I guess I'm glad she's dead." But that doesn't make any difference whatsoever as to how it appears and leaves an impact on the reader.
What I'm saying is pretty simple. Both when they die and if they get revived, the best approach is to connect emotionally with the situation through the eyes of the characters. To be true to the story itself -- yes, quality of presentation is an important issue but that's not what we're talking about here.And if you do that, you can feel the intense wonder and joy he would feel as they get revived! Not just as a reader going "yay my favorite character is back" but in a deeper, more meaningful way. :)
This is definitely true, but the presentation of the death/revival matters a lot. In Back to the Future,

Doc Brown gets shot at the start, making Marty McFly flee in the time-traveling DeLorean, accidentally flinging himself into the past and getting stranded there. Throughout the film, as Marty co-operates with Doc's past self, both he and the audience is saddened by the fact that we know Doc will be dead when Marty gets... well, back to the future. Doc insists on not knowing anything of the future, making Marty even more frustrated when past-Doc tears up a letter he writes to future-Doc to warn him. So, Marty instead sets the time-machine to get back a few minutes before he left, hoping the warn future-Doc in some other way. It fails, and we see Doc get shot a second time. But! He is alive, for he had actually taped the letter back together in the past and thus wore a bullet-proof west.

I feel this revival works, because throughout the entire film we knew of both time travel and the fact that someone died in what would now be the future. Preventing that death is a secondary plot of the film. However, it would feel entirely different, and I don't think the moment would be as nice if they made Marty do as Doc later did: traveling to the future first to obtain essentially infinite time travel fuel and possibly some other way of reversing the death. It works later, after the infinite fuel has been established, to make time-travel a method of solving mistakes.In the same way, having people who died after the Red Star was revealed as a revivification engine just reappear suddenly would make a lot of sense, but parading Matoro onto the stage with the magical revive unexplained makes people more likely to call BS on the whole deal.It brings to mind the promo image for Bara Magna, though: Matoro in the desert. Even if that was just a mock-up, it could have been a way of introducing the Red Star's function, by having Matoro wake up, dazed, on Bara Magna, and have him explore it instead of Mata Nui.

I think you would want to connect with the characters as a sacrificial hero dies, right? You would want to understand the sense of loss they would have. Likewise, within the context of fiction at least, if they come back to life, why disconnect from the character POV only then? Think of it like in a real-world hospital, if it helps, if someone fades out but they do a bunch of quick doctery things and they come back. It's like that but in a more extended sci-fi way. :)
I, for one, found Cave Story touching, especially in the scenes where

Toroko gets forced into being a boss you have to kill, King dies trying to avenge her, and Curly later drowns because she gives you her airtank. You can save the latter by dragging her through the whole waterway and emptying her robot body of water, but that is a revival you earn. Unless their reappearances were exceptionally epic, I think I'd frown at having Toroko, King or Curly reappear after they have been explicitly shown to die on-screen, even if they were characters that I liked.It should be noted, perhaps, that King isn't too interesting or really likeable before he goes berserk with a sword when he sees Toroko down.

His sacrifice is what gives his character its meaning, perhaps like Matoro. Bringing him back would from a narrative point of view lessen his sacrifice, since he would either be unable to reach that point again, or he would and it would hold less meaning. As much as we want to feel engaged in a story, and as much as we can feel like the characters when one of their friends die, just knowing that there actually is a way in-story to bring them back suddenly makes death less important. So while the story up to this point has had death as very dramatic; at this point it might start to slip into "death is not dramatic" territory. That is a worry, even though it does not diminish what I felt at the previous stories.

[Edit: Besides, Bionicle already established in 2003 that revival is within the bounds of its genre. So Bionicle especially has the right to explore it. :) You can't really get out of this one. :P]
I want to note that I felt the revivals were badly done back then, and I'd prefer them not to be canon if it was up to me. ;)
Now, I think it's crystal clear that these were revived beings, and villains -- and maybe some who might not have been villains originally. But I'm wondering if they haven't been "coming out right". Some of that makes me wonder if they're deformed.
I mentioned something like that up above. I'm guessing that they are either a result of the system malfunctioning, or they are the result of the Kestora experimenting to make the system work again.
Plus, the Kestora seemed to think that the Sender failing was due to something wrong with the Revived, not a mere machine somewhere. What if that's actually true somehow? Not sure how exactly, but physical deformities (causing some to have to kinda drag themselves along like the Toa Mata after the first moments of the canisters opening) might go along with it as a side effect, for the more recent ones.
The Iden can detach a spirit from its body while still not having it float off to the Red Star. If it's similarly the body's inner workings that makes spirits attach or detach, then the whole process might be finely tuned system relying on several things:- The Red Star machinery- The Mata Nui systems- The spirit- The body it will be attached toIf any of them fail, the revival might not work. And so, the Kestora investigated the Star and couldn't fix the problem, so they turned to the second source they had at hand: the revived beings. They were unaware that Mata Nui was offline, so I'd guess they only know how to work with the Star and whatever's on board.
So, the Receiver (whether of spirits or brains or bodies or what) might still be operating, while the Reviver might be what's actually wrong. Perhaps something slightly wrong in the brains of the Revived, for a long time, after Gaardus came there first (whether he was involved or not), including wrong in Mavrah's brain, makes them unable to leave.
Indeed.
If that's the case, then since Kopaka & Pohatu are not revived, maybe they can still find the teleporter and leave? Without Gaardus?And if it's true that the Reviver hasn't been working lately -- and the Kestora have stopped trying, since to revive any more means overcrowding and more need to kill -- maybe Velika actually chose Tren Krom, while near Gaardus, specifically to lure K&P up there, and fix the Reviver, so TK could be revived in time? Then he would keep sending powerful beings up (originally planned it to be a longer process) and the rest of my earlier theory could proceed.
It's convoluted, but it might work. I'm still thinking he doesn't want the dead beings back, though, and that he's just using the opportunity to off them one by one while Mata Nui, the Mask of Life and the Red Star are all unavailable to play any tricks to bring them back.
Karzahni may have been merely to set up for framing Lesovikk.
Whatever he was killed for, it's at least clear that he wanted to frame Lesovikk given the weapon he used.

Edited by Katuko

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Only Velika knows the where, when and how the murders will occur. In that sense, he makes the rules, if we can call the "game" his killing spree. In Death Note, for example, the whole case is described by a game of sorts, despite everyone (both the killer and the investigators) knowing that he kills people he view as deserving criminals (and then he descends into "anyone who gets in my way" soon enough). What they don't know, and what makes it a game, is how/where/when/to whom each murder will be done or even if the killer has help or not. They suspect he is one of their own. The entire series is a speed chess game with a lot of fake pieces.
The thing is, that meaning of rules has been done. It's quite common in crime thriller fiction. But I always thought of Bionicle as something beyond that, and I'd hope it's not just that. Compared to the innovative twists and plans of villains in past stories, to just copy off of that formula would by comparison be pretty boring IMO. Killing to send them to the RS to begin taking over its hyperdrive would be something beyond, at least (and then who knows what he would want to do when he gets where he wants to go with it). :shrugs:
I'm surprised that you draw the conclusion of insanity from that reaction, since there is nothing insane about it.
I wouldn't call it a conclusion but a possibility; a theory with evidence. The first one, at least, is clearly showing memory loss. That is one possible symptom of insanity, though it can obviously have other causes (and Bionicle has depicted many before).
It brings to mind the promo image for Bara Magna, though: Matoro in the desert. Even if that was just a mock-up, it could have been a way of introducing the Red Star's function, by having Matoro wake up, dazed, on Bara Magna, and have him explore it instead of Mata Nui.
That was never meant to be Matoro; it was a prototype Mata Nui with Kanohi Ignika. Could make for a cool fanfic though. ^^,While we're talking about revivals that work, let's bring up Captain Jack Sparrow (at least IMO) -- something that was set up as a mission and with quirky humor and stuff. Of course, we shouldn't fall into formulistic thinking; originality is important too, and this being different from other examples is probably a good thing, so pointing to other examples that work (within presentation) is kinda missing the point anyways. Just as the Sparrow example was highly original and you couldn't really point to any other example to justify it. (As far as I can think of. :) There's always something pioneering about the best such bold ideas in fiction, and a bit of "try it and see if it works." All of which simply argues for the boldness of this one, not against it. ^_^But again, I think we all agree we hope it would have been done in such a style as not to feel forced or plot devicey, etc. I really think the solution to that was largely already shown with Mavrah saying there's a lot of unhappy people up here, etc. -- the story was already setting it up as a problem to play around with in plot rather than just a magical "hey they're not dead!"
I want to note that I felt the revivals were badly done back then, and I'd prefer them not to be canon if it was up to me.
Jaller's revival was largely embraced on here. :) I'm sure not everyone liked it, but then 'many' didn't like the move to Metru Nui, and pretty much you name it from there. :P I got the vibe from Kahi's post and others like his that they were trying to make more than a purely taste-based argument. Badly done -- does that mean it's based on taste, or something in how it was done. We've all agreed they can be done well, but isn't there taste in that too?I do think there's something 'human rather than taste' that's closer to, if not, universal in most things that writers can tap into, which I think is what we're trying to discuss towards. But what exactly that is, and whether that can be defined down is an issue, methinks. Generally it's better for fiction to just go for it in what feels right, and see if fans like it or not, in my experience. Worrying too much about artificial rules tends to make the writing less enjoyable, both for author and fans, so to argue for them and then act like this is an argument for better writing... it just doesn't compute, based on experience, not just of me but of countless professional writers who have written books on the matter, professors of creative writing, etc.
It's convoluted, but it might work. I'm still thinking he doesn't want the dead beings back, though, and that he's just using the opportunity to off them one by one while Mata Nui, the Mask of Life and the Red Star are all unavailable to play any tricks to bring them back.
Well, here's an alternate explanation for the Tren Krom choice, running with that. Maybe he does want some of the most powerful ones destroyed before the Reviver is fixed, and maybe the waiting queue idea is wrong -- so it's either you get revived or not. Choosing TK would be merely because he's Psionic, and could lure K&P up there with Gaardus near. TK could, as you said, merely think of the RS because he knows it's normally where dead beings were supposed to go -- and I think it's likely he does go, but maybe since the Reviver isn't fixed yet, his pattern fades away before he can be revived.Alternatively, he doesn't go at all but that psionic thought lures the Toa up, and they may still figure out how to fix the Reviver.Then, Velika slows down and "at his leisure" takes down less powerful beings -- either on SM, or chooses those who are in the giant robot helping to evacuate things if it does only work there -- and only these less powerful beings are used to take over the RS, so there's less powerful beings left to oppose him should they figure it all out.This would explain this part:
The most powerful would need to be eliminated individually – no point in risking the grand plan because he had missed one, after all – and the rest could be dealt with at leisure. He had expected it to be a time-consuming, if amusing, exercise, a sort of living strategy game in which only he knew the rules.Now, though, fate seemed to have altered the circumstances. So many of his targets, all in the same place, offered the opportunity to accelerate his timetable – much too good of an opportunity to miss. A little of this, a little of that, and the fortress would be so much rubble … and the universe far better off.
So it could be both -- he wants to eliminate the most powerful, which is why he puts them in one group in his mind, and he could have another purpose involving the revival system for "the rest". This would make sense both of the choice of Tren Krom and of these statements.

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There is something I am wondering about...

If someone dies then do they come back with any memories? If not then you could argue that their death is permanent in a philosophical sense because they probably are not going to redevelop into the person you knew. Consider Matoro, assuming that you are still sent there after you achieve your destiny, if he is revived there with no memories then it really is not that cheapened because he is nothing like the Matoro that we see in the 2001-2008 story arcs and has no memories of his toa team or anyone he has met, but this is an example based on the speculation listed above. Thoughts?


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There is something I am wondering about...

If someone dies then do they come back with any memories? If not then you could argue that their death is permanent in a philosophical sense because they probably are not going to redevelop into the person you knew. Consider Matoro, assuming that you are still sent there after you achieve your destiny, if he is revived there with no memories then it really is not that cheapened because he is nothing like the Matoro that we see in the 2001-2008 story arcs and has no memories of his toa team or anyone he has met, but this is an example based on the speculation listed above. Thoughts?

But like I said, why would the GBs design a system to erase all the experiences that led up to a person sacrificing themselves for the greater good? Wouldn't that unit be more valuable with all of that? If they start over, maybe they'd follow a very different path and become a villain instead. What in-story reason could there be to wipe their memories?The idea of avoiding this alleged "cheapening" is an outside-the-story thing, an artificial rule imposed on the story rather than something that stays true to how things would logically be within the fictional world. Also, it really doesn't make sense anyways -- except that it can take away finality (which is probably being way overrated anyways :P). They still sacrificed their life, not knowing it wouldn't be final, and the idea that it cheapens the death ignores the wonderful positive side of a revival. A strong case can be made, and probably should be, that it actually deepens and brings more value to the death. Can lose one value and gain a far more powerful one, yanno?Bringing such a character back (with memories) means that they are able to continue, with the life experiences that led them up to make those choices, to fight for what's right. If they just stay dead, then that one sacrifice can only have the value it had. But now, it can have continuing value because they have come back to continue to help. :)So like any choice in fiction there's pros and cons -- and it really is a mistake IMO to try to make it about 'cheapening.'If we applied that thinking consistently you'd have to try to apply dollars and cents type values to everything in stories, rather than being able to engage with the characters as real people with deep emotions and desires, tough choices, etc. Everything would just become a more highly or more lowly priced plot device and turn plot into a game of always avoiding "cheap" (yet realistic and meaningful) little things (or even big things) and only doing the "expensive" plot devices. Ugh. :PI say rather that real, deep, raw, meaningful emotions in a fictional character can and should be explored in anything possible for a fictional world, valuing both what some may say are little moments and big moments, and possibilities that don't exist in the real world. :)And let's keep in mind that we shouldn't be acting like character deaths are universally embraced as having deep resonate value anyways. Too often people also disengage when those happen and just call it authorial "killing off". So this idea that deaths are in themselves inherently "not cheap" is not to be blindly assumed either. There's more to that too. The truth is that with both death and revival, there are both style of presentation and choice of attitude to the plot element by the reader at play.Obviously the argument can be strongly made that style of presentation of deaths and revivals both may be lacking (though taste plays a role). Botar's death for example, was kinda just "he died, bam, moving on" -- which is not an issue in this case because we do not have the style of presentation. But my point is, choice of attitude the reader brings to it is also key in both kinds of events. (Including in real-world type revivals like the old hospital "CLEAR!"-zap thing.)In other words, many readers unfortunately will stay engaged with anything a story does, until a character dies. Then, regardless of presentation or with a strong bias against it, they will themselves step out of suspension of disbelief and insist on judging it only as a plot device, as if death was not realistic in that world. I think that's a bad approach. Likewise, some of you are making the same basic mistake here. You are staying engaged until there's a revival, and then, regardless of presentation (especially considering we don't have it), yall are insisting on not suspending your disbelief as you normally would, merely because it is revival and thus "cheapens", etc. etc. Both are the same mistake.You could make an in-story argument for villains losing their memories, though. :P

Edit: Well, there goes my motive theory... I think... :P Linky.

Although we still don't know for sure that the RS can't pull in dead beings from SM, as discussed in earlier posts; could be something else is wrong now like the reviver.Plus we don't know what those plans are, but it seems to indicate that the GBs as a whole still have plans for the MU beings even though the giant robot is finished, and Velika seems to still be true to them (though they presumably would not condone his murdering to pursue them). So the idea of taking the RS for its hyperdrive to go to them may still work, but the idea of taking it to flee them I'd consider debunked. And regardless of the RS plan idea or not, there still would be an unknown greater plan he's seeking.I wonder if we should take this as evidence that Velika did not account for TK sending that mental image of the RS, and TK may have actually thwarted Velika's plans there? Still, that would make it an awfully strange coincidence that Gaardus just happened to be near....Unless... maybe... TK somehow heard about Karzahni, figured things out, and was actually seeking Gaardus at the time in a vain hope of getting the RS reviver fixed in time to save himself... Eh... getting a bit too speculative now probably. :P

Edited by bonesiii

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