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Were The Turaga Originally Intended To Be The Bad Guys?


Gorag

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Now I know they made excuses for why the Turaga were keeping secrets and such in later years, but does anyone else think that the Turaga were originally intended to to be the bad guys? Wherever you looked in the Mata years of Bionicle, the Turaga were always keeping valuable secrets as if trying to control the Matoran, or maybe get away with something. They always seemed like a suspicious bunch to me... Maybe LEGO felt like this was too complicated for young minds or too political, or possibly they recycled this Idea for Turaga Dume after their customers grew fond of the Turaga? Maybe they felt like it didn't fit with the more Native American cultured Mata story, but fit well with the more modern Metru? Did anyone else think the Turaga were a suspicious bunch and that it appeared as if LEGO was originally going to make the Turaga the bad guys, but changed it?

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A lot of the Bionicle storyline was planned from the begining, how much detail went into the Turaga at the start I don't know. They certainly kept secrets, but that's only because they wanted to go back to Metru-Nui at the right time, and telling the matoran about it would it make it more difficult to get to that time. All the secrets they kept were for the good of the matoran, and they always told the secrets when the information was needed. I can see how they might have seemed suspicious at the start, but I don't think they were ever intended to be bad guys.

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Now I know they made excuses for why the Turaga were keeping secrets and such in later years, but does anyone else think that the Turaga were originally intended to to be the bad guys? Wherever you looked in the Mata years of Bionicle, the Turaga were always keeping valuable secrets as if trying to control the Matoran, or maybe get away with something. They always seemed like a suspicious bunch to me... Maybe LEGO felt like this was too complicated for young minds or too political, or possibly they recycled this Idea for Turaga Dume after their customers grew fond of the Turaga? Maybe they felt like it didn't fit with the more Native American cultured Mata story, but fit well with the more modern Metru? Did anyone else think the Turaga were a suspicious bunch and that it appeared as if LEGO was originally going to make the Turaga the bad guys, but changed it?

I'll have to disagree with your Turaga Dume statement. He was not considered an evil being (well, he was when we didn't know the truth at the time); he was being impersonated by Makuta Teridax. Sure, the Turaga were suspicious, but that doesn't really mean they were intended to be evil. Everyone has secrets, but they aren't all evil. :P

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Yeah, I have to agree with the majority here and say that the Turaga were supposed to be mysterious, wise-beyond-comprehension elders rather than mysterious, nefarious manipulators. As you pointed out, the first few years of BIONICLE had relatively little deception, betrayal, etc., and I'm inclined to believe that this theme was relatively intentional. Anyway, it's precisely those secrets (which the Turaga, of course, revealed quickly) that supported the Matoran and Toa, which would imply that they were either benevolent or extremely manipulative, and I don't think anyone got that sort of characterization (i.e., being an evil mastermind) until Time Trap or maybe Roodaka. ~ BioGio

 

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Looking at it one way might make it seem like they were followers of Teridax, come to take hold of the island. But it was just how they acted, secrets aside, that made them good-natured. I mean, otherwise they'd be giving away their position eventually. Sometimes, secrets aren't to be revealed. Even the good guys have them.

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That would have been one coup de ta by the Turaga wouldn't it? Tricking all the matoran into believing them only to manipulate those matoran for their nefarious schemes. Yeah, that does seem a little over the head of the average 10 year old, so I don't think it was intended that way from the start. In my opinion, the turaga were there to add to the mysterious flair that Bionicle had in 2001-2003. -don't touch my pocket protector

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Remember, as you said, Bionicle was supposed to have a Native feel based on Maori culture back in 2001. The Turaga just seemed like shamanistic figures, making obscure prophecies and unclear predictions. They fit that image very well in my opinion. The likelihood of an additional purpose hidden below that is highly unlikely.

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Though, didn't the Makuta Turaga Dume do the same thing? He sure didn't claim to be Makuta to the Matoran, he manipulated his position's power and manipulated the Matoran. Why couldn't the original Turaga have done the same thing? And though the good guys do keep secrets, the Turaga seemed to keep valuable information that could have helped if they had revealed it sooner. Was the story of the "Matoran having Amnesia" even thought of yet, by the way? I was just comparing how they acted in the Mata years, no further as I don't know how much of the story LEGO planned at the same time.

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I see it as them counter-gambiting the Makuta. They keep the Matoran under control by selectively giving them the truth, thereby preventing any of them from getting ideas and falling under the Makuta's thrall.I'm not really sure why they kept information from the Toa.

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The Turaga reminded me of the characteristic "mysterious secretive mentor" you see all the time in fantasy/sci-fi stories. Take Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars, for example. He did the same thing, keeping backstory information from the main character until he was ready for it, but he was definitely never evil. I think the Turaga were designed similarly, that they were keeping the secrets from the Toa/Matoran until they proved that they could deal with the revelations about Metru Nui. Although, technically, Vakama was evil...for a while. ;) :mirunu: Lewa0111 Nuva :mirunu:

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Im sorry, Native American Cultured? I actually take great offense to that, being they are based off of the Maori Culture Now that thats over, I do see a valid point. But then i never noticed all the secret keeping as for being evil. I saw it more as for their own protection.An example: Turaga tells Matoran of the Mask of Mega-ness, so he decides to look for it and almost dies. So he doesnt tell him, and he doesnt go and look for it and continues his lifeThats my logic behind it anyway

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Probably not. The secrets they kept were probably for the good of Matoran. Dume, you could immediately tell was evil. So I doubdt the original Turaga could be the same, as they actually behaved very differently. Although Nokama sometimes was a bit different in thinking than the rest, I don't think any were planned to be evil.

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Im sorry, Native American Cultured? I actually take great offense to that, being they are based off of the Maori Culture

I was using Native American as an example. Most people know that Native Americans talk about spirits and do ritualistic dances, etc, while at least in America Maori Culture is not that well known. I didn't say it was based around that, just that it was similar.

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Seeing as years 1-5, and some details of later years, were planned from the start, no, I don't think the Turaga were ever planned to be evil.

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I personally feel they added to the mystery of Mata Nui. I can't remember if they hid the toa's masks, or if it was the OoMN, but if the former, then that would be my only suspicion for them as villains. Even then, it's probably like most mentors, and they were simply teaching the toa teamwork, and making the toa prove themselves to be worthy of the powers their kanohi gave them.

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Toward the end of the Metru Nui story arc, I started thinking the same thing. I consider it kind of like the Jedi at the end of Episode III, where they were the good guys still, but they had so many secrets that weren't told before that it really makes one wonder if they really are the good guys. However, the question was if they were intended to be bad guys, which I believe to be a very absolute no. They were intended to be the elders, leading the villages, and they did just that.

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I never thought about it, but maybe. That would explain either Cahdok or Gahdok (I think Cahdok)'s speech about killing their brothers. That would've made more sense than Av-Matoran, at least in the earlier years. I don't think this made it into the final story, probably just the really really early stages, like 1999 or something, if that.

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Thinking back to the MNOLG, the Turaga (particularly Nokama) were always portrayed as kind, thoughtful and dignified. They never came across as suspicious to me. Yes there were clearly things they weren't telling, but we all have secrets of our own, don't we? Also, if the Turaga were 'the bad guys', where would that leave Makuta?

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Im sorry, Native American Cultured? I actually take great offense to that, being they are based off of the Maori Culture

America Maori Culture is not that well known.
Maori culture is not american at all. It is from new zealand and the pacific islands

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Tahu littereally means Fire in Maori.

Im sorry, Native American Cultured? I actually take great offense to that, being they are based off of the Maori Culture

America Maori Culture is not that well known.
Maori culture is not american at all. It is from new zealand and the pacific islands
But the matter has been resolved via PM

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Im sorry, Native American Cultured? I actually take great offense to that, being they are based off of the Maori Culture

America Maori Culture is not that well known.
Maori culture is not american at all. It is from new zealand and the pacific islands
Not trying to be mean or anything, but that was funny! :lol: Back on topic - Actually, Bob Thompson, the founder of BIONICLE, had the whole "story bible" (which was originally quite different than the story we knew today) in his head, that the Turaga and matoran were going to go back to Metru Nui, the Inika were going to Voya Nui, and eventually, save Mata Nui. The Inika were actually supposed to be the ones who went into Karda Nui, not the Nuva. I read that information on the Greg Farshtey Dialogue a long time ago, and now I can't find the thread on the forums... It's up to you to believe whether what I said was true.

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Okay clearly people are believing turaga were meant to badies cuz of Dume and their secreciy well look: -The dume that was Teridax was NOT the true dume, Likhan said that-the Turaga kept secrets for the matoran's protection(Like parent do with kids sometimes)-The tuaga were toa!-They aided the toa, and I doubt the turaga were meant to be badies, Greg would never intend that.

Im sorry, Native American Cultured? I actually take great offense to that, being they are based off of the Maori Culture

America Maori Culture is not that well known.
Maori culture is not american at all. It is from new zealand and the pacific islands
Not trying to be mean or anything, but that was funny! :lol: Back on topic - Actually, Bob Thompson, the founder of BIONICLE, had the whole "story bible" (which was originally quite different than the story we knew today) in his head, that the Turaga and matoran were going to go back to Metru Nui, the Inika were going to Voya Nui, and eventually, save Mata Nui. The Inika were actually supposed to be the ones who went into Karda Nui, not the Nuva. I read that information on the Greg Farshtey Dialogue a long time ago, and now I can't find the thread on the forums... It's up to you to believe whether what I said was true.
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The "He's a big machine" quote from Mask of Light indicates that much of the Bionicle story was planned in advance (there's other foreshadows, such as the Inika all having worn their respective Toa's mask as a Matoran). So yeah, there's little evidence that the Turaga were intended as being evil. It's a common theme in fiction where the mysterious old guys keep secrets from everyone until it is necessary to share them - it's a useful plot device for surprises.

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I considered the Turaga to be similar to one's grandparents, only less senile. They gave out advice and were rather wise. I didn't actually consider them to be really evil, except for Vakama after reading the Adventures series of books. I consider anyone who would destroy the universe the essence of time in order to make a deal with his enemy a bit morally ambiguous.

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Hahaha, I've had some similar thoughts on that, Gorag. That's pretty cool to me, I have to say.It seems like a lot of people here are throwing expressions like "they lied for the Matoran's own good". But I have to ask, how so? I've heard the argument that it would have been more "difficult" if the Matoran had known about their lives on Metru Nui, but I can't imagine why. If anything, it would be positively devastating to learn that the set of legends you've been hearing, the knowledge of which has guided your actions, your work, on an island you have taken to be your home from the very beginning, for 1,000 years -- that all of that was a lie and now you're "ready" to hear the actual truth.And in terms of serving the mentorship role, I really think they failed to make themselves seem credible. The only thing that made them seem like they knew what they were talking about was the fact that they were hiding all of this information from everyone in the first place. And what gave them the right, the power, to hide the Kanohi Masks to "test" the Toa? What credentials? "Wise and sagent, shady old guy/girl"? Putting people in harm's way, no matter how powerful or capable they may be, is no way to test or teach them. (I'm looking at you, Nokama. Way to abandon Gali in that underwater temple with the giant freakin' octopus and not a hint of what to do.) That just makes them seem morally ambiguous.Food for thought, I guess. Cool topic, Gorag! Now that you say it, having the Turaga turn out to be the bad guys would have made the Metru Nui twist much more interesting and sinister, to me at least.

It would have been very difficult for the Matoran to suddenly be told that they had had entire lives which they couldn't remember.

But that's what ended up happening anyway... and, hey, they seemed to take it pretty well, as unlikely as it may seem to me personally.~QMark

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Hahaha, I've had some similar thoughts on that, Gorag. That's pretty cool to me, I have to say.It seems like a lot of people here are throwing expressions like "they lied for the Matoran's own good". But I have to ask, how so? I've heard the argument that it would have been more "difficult" if the Matoran had known about their lives on Metru Nui, but I can't imagine why. If anything, it would be positively devastating to learn that the set of legends you've been hearing, the knowledge of which has guided your actions, your work, on an island you have taken to be your home from the very beginning, for 1,000 years -- that all of that was a lie and now you're "ready" to hear the actual truth.And in terms of serving the mentorship role, I really think they failed to make themselves seem credible. The only thing that made them seem like they knew what they were talking about was the fact that they were hiding all of this information from everyone in the first place. And what gave them the right, the power, to hide the Kanohi Masks to "test" the Toa? What credentials? "Wise and sagent, shady old guy/girl"? Putting people in harm's way, no matter how powerful or capable they may be, is no way to test or teach them. (I'm looking at you, Nokama. Way to abandon Gali in that underwater temple with the giant freakin' octopus and not a hint of what to do.) That just makes them seem morally ambiguous.Food for thought, I guess. Cool topic, Gorag! Now that you say it, having the Turaga turn out to be the bad guys would have made the Metru Nui twist much more interesting and sinister, to me at least.

It would have been very difficult for the Matoran to suddenly be told that they had had entire lives which they couldn't remember.

But that's what ended up happening anyway... and, hey, they seemed to take it pretty well, as unlikely as it may seem to me personally.~QMark
I agree with that as well. At first when they revealed their secrets about Metru Nui, I was given the impression that they were ... well, not quite as serious as evil, but rather, egocentric people. Lol. And all the Turaga did during the Mata Nui period was to order the Toa Mata to do this and that and not telling why they had to risk their lives to do so. Like you said, Nokama even left Gali alone in a cavern with gaint murderous pre-historic creatures while Gali was deprived of her powers. That doesn't sound like a role model for children. "Hey you, go collect a set of masks. Don't ask me why. The legends (Aka I) say so."But I suppose their reason is quite valid. I mean, if they let the Matoran go back to Metru Nui (which they certainly would if the Turaga told them about Metru Nui. Who wouldn't be curious about an undergound city), Makuta would probably finish what he would have done a century ago - to put the Matoran into long, deep slumber and take over the universe. I guess that's why they have to keep the Matoran away from the truth.
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I agree with that as well. At first when they revealed their secrets about Metru Nui, I was given the impression that they were ... well, not quite as serious as evil, but rather, egocentric people. Lol. And all the Turaga did during the Mata Nui period was to order the Toa Mata to do this and that and not telling why they had to risk their lives to do so. Like you said, Nokama even left Gali alone in a cavern with gaint murderous pre-historic creatures while Gali was deprived of her powers. That doesn't sound like a role model for children. "Hey you, go collect a set of masks. Don't ask me why. The legends (Aka I) say so."But I suppose their reason is quite valid. I mean, if they let the Matoran go back to Metru Nui (which they certainly would if the Turaga told them about Metru Nui. Who wouldn't be curious about an undergound city), Makuta would probably finish what he would have done a century ago - to put the Matoran into long, deep slumber and take over the universe. I guess that's why they have to keep the Matoran away from the truth.

"Egocentric" is a good word for it, haha.And that's an interesting way of looking at it. At that time, though, Makuta was the one keeping the Matoran from going back to Metru Nui, what with all his Infected Rahi running around. I imagine if any of the Matoran had tried to go to Metru Nui, Makuta could've just summoned the whole lot and prevented them by sheer numbers. (Sure, the Matoran put up a good fight at Kini-Nui, but I assume that if Makuta had actually wanted to go at them at full force, they wouldn't have stood a chance, much like how he could have defeated the Toa originally if it had fit into his plans.) But from what we've seen the Matoran seem pretty content to follow the Turaga's lead, so if the Turaga told them they couldn't go somewhere they probably wouldn't (except maybe Takua... now wouldn't THAT have been an interesting story, Takua embarking on a search for the lost city of Metru Nui!). Plus they probably wouldn't be too eager to fall into Makuta's hands.~QMark

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