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The visorak horde


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I would like to know: ¿What is the size of the visorak horde? I mean, if the visorak were at the service of tha makuta, they would have had their power reduced by A LOT when vakama disbanded them.

 

But also, with the horde disbanded, it would shurely be a problem for the whole MU to have a large number of visorak wandering around.

 

Unless, of course, that there are not so many of them, that they are only a couple hundred.

 

In several points of the canon, a clash between three toa and a pair of dark hunters is considered a battle, and a group of 30 people is an army. So the word 'horde'; wouldn't it also have a smaller meaning than in our world?

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Hmm, interesting thought.

 

The word 'Horde' would imply that they're numerous by Bionicle standards, so let's look at one of the best estimates.

 

In Bionicle 3, Sidorak shows Vakama what is apparently meant to be the entire horde, and it takes up the entire Coliseum. Now, Metru Nui's population has always been very small by our standards, with only 1,000 Matoran living there. So at the very least the tribunes would be big enough to seat that many, but I'm guessing the actual arena is substantially bigger, as we could see in Bionicle 2 where there was enough room for 1,000 Matoran to form orderly lines in order to be unwittingly put into stasis pods by the Vahki.

 

I'd guess, personally, that the Visorak number somewhere between 2-3,000 individuals, maybe 4,000 if we're being generous.

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Approximately Big.5.

 

In several points of the canon, a clash between three toa and a pair of dark hunters is considered a battle, and a group of 30 people is an army. So the word 'horde'; wouldn't it also have a smaller meaning than in our world?

Probably so, yeah. But, there would have to be a pretty vast minimum, since they would have had to make webs over nearly everything in Metru Nui in less than the time since the Toa Metru protocaged Makuta and later returned. That does seem to be a fair amount of time, but I'd still say it's got to be in the thousands, likely many more than the Matoran population. But probably nowhere near a million.

 

I'd guess, personally, that the Visorak number somewhere between 2-3,000 individuals, maybe 4,000 if we're being generous.

At first glance I was going to agree with this, but on second thought, it may be a bit low if you factor that there were 5000 Vahki. Of course, only some Vahki survived the power surge, but still, I think the Visorak had to greatly outnumber them to avoid being quickly wiped out by them, since they had decided to kill everything then. 10,000 or more may be possible, even, though I doubt it.

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I certainly believe it to be between a few thousand and fifty thousand, but most likely around 3000-4000 like Geardirector says, or a bit higher at 10000-20000. It would be more than enough to conquer a Matoran city and deal some crushing blows to small populations of beings with special powers, while still being manageable to call to a single location with the Heart artifact.

 

There's quite a lot of Visorak around, though, we can be sure of that.

 

At first I thought that just six Toa were enough to stave off the horde for a while, but then I realized that they almost got killed by just the first few spiders they met. A rain of stunning Rhotuka followed by a trampling (by wall-climbers, no less!) should be quite effective just about anywhere. And if an enemy prove too tough to trample normally, you send in the berserker-rushing Vohtarak first. Maybe just a few thousand would be enough, no matter if you lose a few here and there.

Edited by Katuko
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We can't be sure about the numbers, but the guesses going 'round seem reasonable. What I do wander about is what the Visorak did with themselves afterwards. I know the Keelerak (green) where always plotting to be dominant or something like that (I think they didn't like Sidorak) so they may have gone about doing things and leading in a wolf pack sort of way. The real blow for the Brotherhood was that they had lost one of their most effective forces as an effective unit. You might be able to round up about 100 but that's nothing if you used to have 10,000 ish. The Visorak are still engineered weapons/soldiers. They would still go about poisoning and hunting and killing, but it wouldn't be a standing order for them. Plus, spread out they're a much more manageable threat.

 

So I imagine that the disbanded Visorak split off into much smaller packs, and spread over the MU. In this form, they're not really the credible threat that they used to be, though, like wild Rahkshi, you don't really want to mess with them. Without the Heart of the Visorak, regaining the Horde, or most of the Horde, is near impossible.

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Hmm, interesting thought.

 

The word 'Horde' would imply that they're numerous by Bionicle standards, so let's look at one of the best estimates.

 

In Bionicle 3, Sidorak shows Vakama what is apparently meant to be the entire horde, and it takes up the entire Coliseum. Now, Metru Nui's population has always been very small by our standards, with only 1,000 Matoran living there. So at the very least the tribunes would be big enough to seat that many, but I'm guessing the actual arena is substantially bigger, as we could see in Bionicle 2 where there was enough room for 1,000 Matoran to form orderly lines in order to be unwittingly put into stasis pods by the Vahki.

 

I'd guess, personally, that the Visorak number somewhere between 2-3,000 individuals, maybe 4,000 if we're being generous.

 

But visorak are much larger than matoran. They are approximately the size of a toa hordika. I have seen the movie this morning, and I am sure they are rather large. If 1000 matoran fit, about 600 visorak fit.

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The Coliseum is waaaay big enough to seat way more than 1000 Matoran, though. Of course, I say this in part because LoMN actually showed it with far more Matoran, which is non-canon. Maybe you could imagine the Coliseum itself is smaller in "true canon", but in any event, was it ever actually stated that every single Visorak fit there? I don't see the need; orders could be passed by web vibrations across the whole island, so it's not like they had to be in shouting distance. And it would make sense for the stadium to seat far more than just the population of the island since there could be times when they had visitors.

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The Coliseum is waaaay big enough to seat way more than 1000 Matoran, though. Of course, I say this in part because LoMN actually showed it with far more Matoran, which is non-canon. Maybe you could imagine the Coliseum itself is smaller in "true canon", but in any event, was it ever actually stated that every single Visorak fit there? I don't see the need; orders could be passed by web vibrations across the whole island, so it's not like they had to be in shouting distance. And it would make sense for the stadium to seat far more than just the population of the island since there could be times when they had visitors.

 

Which brings up the question: ¿How many matoran are there in the matoran universe?

 

I think I'll create a topic about that right now (to not get too far from the original topic).

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Q: About how many Visorak would you say there are altogether? Are all of them presently on Metru Nui?

A: I saw it as more 750-900 total

 

 

 

Q: Hi. I was just wondering, you told me there were only a couple hundred of Visorak, but I'm pretty sure I saw that you told someone else you changed your mind and that there were thousands. So, how many Visorak are there?

A: I still generally think of them as being in the hundreds. You may see slightly different figures in things that represent the viewpoint of the Rahaga or the Toa Hordika, because neither of those two groups knows how many Visorak there are -- all that they know is what they see, which is a lot, so they might tend to exaggerate the numbers.

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The Visorak inside the Coliseum can't be the whole Horde, it doesn't make sense that every single VIsorak in Metru Nui left their assigned posts to go and meet Vakama because Metru Nui would have been defensless then. Plus there were probably more Visorak out there in some other place apart from Metru Nui like Destral, the Southern Chain of Islands and of course the island of Visorak.

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I agree that the Visorak in the Coliseum can't be the entire horde. There would be hundreds still stationed around the city, and who knows how much still behind the invading force to bring in the siege weapons, as they do in the comics. Personally I think the estimate would be between 2,000-7,000 of the horde. The term of "army" and the number it implies may be different from our standards.

 

I am thinking of it in a perspective of a resident of the MU universe. Matoran were probably the most populous of the entire species in the MU. But as the Dark Hunters go we have a book of its members (most), and could factor in a portion that are menial workers/grunts. Even Toa were pretty scarce in comparison to other populations, where one or two teams would be the defense of an island.

So in comparison to a world where 30 or so enemies fighting can be labeled an army, the horde could quite be an abnormally large number in a finite (yet still huge) environment.

 

Hope that all makes sense.


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It's so frustrating when we're discussing a topic and finding potential answers that make sense, then a quote from Greg appears with an answer that doesn't make sense at all...

 

(Please don't misinterpret this as saying that I'm mad at people (fishers, bonesiii) for finding/sharing the quotes.)

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It's so frustrating when we're discussing a topic and finding potential answers that make sense, then a quote from Greg appears with an answer that doesn't make sense at all...

 

(Please don't misinterpret this as saying that I'm mad at people (fishers, bonesiii) for finding/sharing the quotes.)

You are allowed to point out why the answer I or bones drag up makes no sense. That's part of the discussion allowed here, which includes story criticism as far as I know.

 

Also, just because I drag up a Greg answer doesn't mean I'm right, either. Sometimes I misinterpret Greg's answers in the context of a discussion, drag up answers that don't apply, apply it wrong, etc. There seems to be an "ooo...Greg Answer...must be fact...stop talking" thing going on, which isn't always the best thing. I'm trying to enlighten the discussion by bringing in information, not stop the discussion altogether.

 

Now, as for the Visorak, I got to admit that the number does sound on the low end, considering the whole thing filled the Coliseum field. That's official story vs. word of Greg, in which case official story would win. Unfortunately, the official story doesn't give a number, and we do have to consider Artidax - the fact that the Order was confident that a single erupting volcano would wipe out the entire horde. It's still a matter open for debate - is Greg's number reasonable?

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Unfortunately, the official story doesn't give a number, and we do have to consider Artidax - the fact that the Order was confident that a single erupting volcano would wipe out the entire horde. It's still a matter open for debate - is Greg's number reasonable?

An exploding volcano could kill thousands with ease. The eruption of Mount Vesuvius killed roughly 2000 people with its ash and lava, which was about 10% of the city of Pompeii's population at the time. They had time to start evacuating before the main portion of the disaster struck. On Artidax, the Visorak were pretty much spellbound by the Heart until the volcano suddenly erupted, which could easily have caught anywhere from a thousand to ten thousand in rivers of lava and a rain of half-melted rocks. So long as they all fit onto the shore, an entire island going up in flame doesn't care for the number. Thus, the entire horde being killed by the volcano does not really give us any number. It could have been 50, it could have been 500, it could have been 5000 or even 50000, and they would still all fit on the volcano's hillside.

 

There are these quotes from Dwellers in Darkness, which was of course written by Greg:

The trip to Artidax was long, but uneventful. Nuparu kept a careful watch out for Visorak, but saw none the first few days. As they got closer to the island, he would catch a glimpse of the spiders on the shores of islands that they passed. If their visitor was correct, the entire horde would be in pursuit of them now.

“I ‘escaped,’ as you put it, out of a desire to do my bit for Mata Nui,” Takadox answered, with a cold smile. “As for my fellow former rulers, they are no doubt rotting in cells by now, where they belong. But what brings you to this garden spot of the universe?”

“They do,” said Nuparu, pointing toward the ocean. It had become a sea of Boggarak, skating across the water’s surface, heading for the island. Behind them, floating on pieces of flotsam and jetsam of all types, were thousands more Visorak. All of them were coming right for Artidax.

Here it is actually said that the horde consists of "thousands". The actual death of the horde is only vaguely described - they could not escape the disaster. It seems likely, though, that they were caught in a flood of lava, as an entire volcano actually "exploding" would surely have killed the Toa as well with massive shock waves. We have no measure of how big the volcano was, but lava flows surprisingly quickly and can pour out of the ground even besides the main crater once the eruption starts. I think it's safe to say that anything caught near the volcano on Artidax when it erupted would be burned alive, while the surrounding area could have you drop dead from choking/poisoning due to all the smoke and ash.

Edited by Katuko
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Hmm...so would 750-900 represent the amount of Visorak in Metru Nui in 2005? We've already confirmed the Aritidax number in the thousands.

 

Also keep in mind that there was 1000 years between these two events, in which the Brotherhood could have built more Visorak, perhaps as weapons in the Makuta-DH war.

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Seems like a reasonable estimate, yes. Sidorak could have brought with him somewhere around a thousand Visorak total on a regular basis, but after his death and with the final battle approaching, the Brotherhood could have created a few thousand more to simply release onto hostile lands and lay waste to them. They appeared to have a large amount of low to mid-level Rahkshi as well, and did not care much for what happened to them so long as the sheer numbers were enough to beat the opposition.

Edited by Katuko
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Eh, I think it would have been slightly more strategic than that. Remember the huge horde that attacked the Piraka near the end of Legacy of Evil?

 

Also, the Brotherhood didn't really have an interest in lying waste to the universe. They needed the universe operating for the Plan to succeed. Unless they happened to be named Icarax. :P

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They needed the Order of Mata Nui out of the picture, and only the Matoran were really important. The siege on Metru Nui did not seem to pull any punches. Besides, walking in and stunning everyone with a rain of Visorak spinners seems like a nice way to force your still-living enemies into submission, if that is the desired outcome.

 

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