Questions on Destiny

[Makuta DUSt]

Hello, there! I believe I am slightly confused about the concept of 'destiny' in the BIONICLE Universe. If I am allowed to ask, I would like to make some queries regarding this concept.

 

Firstly, are most (if not all) actions in the universe predetermined by someone's destiny? If so, would free will (even by technicality) exist? Say for example, Takua once played a game of Kolhii immediately after finding the Ahvokii. Was this by his own accord of not wanting to forfeit the match, or was this because his destiny ultimately required something that would cause him to ultimately put on the mask? In the 'Melding' universe, a person was transformed into a Trident upon contact with liquidised Protodermis. Was this because their destiny was to become a Trident, or because that trident would eventually be used in some large event?

 

Can someone have multiple destinies? Some Matoran are destined to become Toa, and certain Toa teams have destinies of their own afterwards. When that Toa fulfills their destiny, they become Turaga. Do Turaga have destinies? I'm sorry if I sound heartless, but what is the purpose of some if they lack destiny? Kopaka contemplated about becoming a Turaga, or settling down. Now that the Toa Mahri have brought Mata Nui back to life, are they allowed to become Turaga?

 

Judging from the universe seen in 'The Kingdom', Toa can fail in their destinies. If so, are they unable to become Turaga? Do they have a new destiny afterwards? Takanuva's destiny was to defeat the Brotherhood of Makuta, but seeing as they all died during the Storms in Karda Nui, what will become of him? If a Toa gives in to the effects of the Hordika, then shall they gain a new destiny?

 

Other beings have destinies, as evidenced by the effects of the Liquidised Protodetmis. However, do they undergo some metamorphism similar to that of the Matoran and Toa if they complete their destinies? Do they have destinies, or are their destinies derived from being submerged in the Liquidised Protodermis?

 

I'm sorry for asking too many questions, but what exactly IS Destiny? Is it merely a concept created by the Great Beings? Do the Great Beings control Destiny?

If so, can Velika alter Destiny?

Does Destiny extend to all beings in the universe? Does anyone control or decide Destiny?

 

Or is Destiny merely another term for Purpose? If so, wouldn't the more correct term for some statements be Duty (as in, 'Matoro's Duty was to wear the mask of life)?

 

Sorry for my boundless ignorance and stupidity, but I am genuinely curious. Thank you all very much in advance for your help!

Edited April 2, 2014 by Makuta DUSt

[Hitoshura]

Wow, that was deep...

 

First off, I think Destiny is a form of its own, like I believe it applies to everything and cannot be altered unless someone dies, a mask gets ruined, etc(which in this case Velika could alter). Maybe some beings have "built in" destinies, like Mata Nui was made for reuniting Spherus Manga. And i agree with you, like in some cases destiny is identical to purpose, but not all the time, such as the Toa Nuva weren't supposed to fall in the energized protodermis, but when they did perhaps destiny triggered something inside them that allowed them to transform. Not sure if I mentioned this before, but I think that all beings have a destiny, big or small, achievable or unachievable. About that Matoro statement, I don't suppose duty is destiny, but in either a book or movie or both Vakama mentions something like "unity leads to duty, duty leads to destiny." I think that's all I can say. (Apologies if that was too confusing.)

 

And no, this is not ignorance or stupidity, Makuta Dust. =P

[bonesiii]

Well, this is IMO the central question of Bionicle, and since I'm playing around with the mystery of it in my retelling (The Destiny of Bionicle, link in sig), I will have to be vague here. Some comments though (I'll only summarize what has already been talked about in the past topics on this):

 

Firstly, are most (if not all) actions in the universe predetermined by someone's destiny? If so, would free will (even by technicality) exist? Say for example, Takua once played a game of Kolhii immediately after finding the Ahvokii. Was this by his own accord of not wanting to forfeit the match, or was this because his destiny ultimately required something that would cause him to ultimately put on the mask?

This is a common logical error that's often made when talking about these things -- if Takua did it "of his own accord", then that still means causality was absolute and he did it for reasons. Free will does not necessarily mean that there are no reasons for what you do -- there always are -- it simply means that the reasons are in you, rather than for example an infected mask directly controlling you. So basically it depends on your definition of freewill.

 

And if the definition were "you do it randomly", then there's no reason in yourself why you did it and arguably thus it's not really freewill either, you'd just be a slave to randomness. If a reason is in yourself, then a causalist's next question is "how did it get there?" and ultimately the reasons Takua was that way started outside himself at his origin (to make a long story short... Later his personality changes through choices he makes, but he makes those choices also because of who he is because of who he was made to be and because of interaction with the outside world). So no genuine definition of freewill can avoid causality starting outside oneself. Once that is established, it's possible to be manipulated, both for good and ill, and yet still technically have freewill, as odd as that might seem.

 

And in any case, this isn't an issue Bionicle usually deals with directly. But to the opening question of this quote, there are some destinies that events adapt however necessary (or try to) to make sure they happen, like the reforming of Spherus Magna with Teridax's help. But he was not destined to rebel and end up helping by accident as happened; that was destiny adapting to his rebelling against his intended destiny to be a good guy cooperating with Mata Nui to accomplish the reforming task. That serves as a basic example to understand most other incidents by, but how it works remains a mystery in the canon.

 

In the 'Melding' universe, a person was transformed into a Trident upon contact with liquidised Protodermis. Was this because their destiny was to become a Trident, or because that trident would eventually be used in some large event?

Destiny only applies for certain in the main universe, since anytime there's a "choice fork", when a decision is destined, the main universe follows one choice (obey the destiny, or rebel), while by definition (Greg's official definition) there is an alternate universe where they made the opposite choice. To those living in the alternate universe, they would see it as destiny adapting in a different way, but the end results often become radically different in those.

 

You could also hypothetically discover an alternate universe where Makuta always made the right choices, and so did everybody else, and everything was peachy keen all the way through history more or less. But for whatever reasons, this isn't the Core Dimension. The Core Dimension appears to be defined as the one where the highest probability of what choices people make, including "likely rebellions", occur. So Makuta doesn't overcome temptation in the Core events because it's unlikely that he would. And because destiny is adaptive, things still have a tendency to end up as good overcoming evil there, but it's not guaranteed (such as Teridax's reign, even if temporary).

 

Can someone have multiple destinies? Some Matoran are destined to become Toa, and certain Toa teams have destinies of their own afterwards.

You answered your own question there. We don't know the extent of how detailed "your destiny" gets, though. But I would assume they can have any number of destinies depending on the needs of the unfolding history.

 

Do Turaga have destinies? I'm sorry if I sound heartless, but what is the purpose of some if they lack destiny?

Another question that depends entirely on the definition of destiny. The Bionicle one is not the same as what we might usually mean by it in the real world (and it's handled vaguely even in the real world). I could answer with a very simple analogy but it might give away the thinking behind story direction in my retelling. Suffice to say, there's no reason why they can't have destinies, but they would just be normal destinies about a person making choices, not the special kinds that are tied to transformations.

 

Notice though that the implication in your question here kind of contradicts the implication when you brought up freewill... If, hypothetically, someone lacked destiny, then that implication could be followed to say that their purpose would be to have autonomy, to be wildcards. (Which can get you killed by Velika, it would seem. But I'm kidding partially because we don't know that he's dealing specifically with destiny.)

 

Takanuva's destiny was to defeat the Brotherhood of Makuta

Are you sure? I haven't done thorough research on this but I was under the impression his true destiny has yet to be revealed. Whatever it was, the Kingdom Takanuva obviously achieved it as he's a Turaga.

 

 

 

Yes, the Great Beings and Mata Nui had the ability to set some destinies, but that's another issue my fanfic provides a (theoretical) solution for, so can't say more here.

 

As for Destiny/Duty/Purpose, that's merely semantics, but overall, why should they be mutually exclusive? Yes, Matoro's destiny was to do his duty... ah, but it was HIS destiny, and not anybody else's. So it wouldn't have been Carapar's duty to put on the mask and sacrifice himself, at least not in that version of events... Carapar shirked duties, but not that one because it wasn't available to him, and that's where destiny comes into play -- assigning different tasks to different people. (Of course, it may adapt to who deserves a task based on if they would accept it... So ultimately it's just a way of saying that that's how events turned out; how they had to turn out for whatever reasons.)

 

Basically, duty means "do what you're supposed to do", while destiny means "this is what you're supposed to do." (And Unity means "what you're supposed to do is defined by what's good for all involved". It's your duty to obey your destiny because of unity. )

 

Hope this helps (but not too much lol).

Edited April 3, 2014 by bonesiii

[Makuta DUSt]

On the contrary, I think that you have helped me about the concept of Destiny. I suppose when I say 'destiny', I am misconceiving the concept and using it interchangeably with 'fate'. And I think when I say 'free will', I mean to say 'an action that is of the person's own accord'. While Takua did mature over his journey of the Seventh Toa, I think I was curious if Destiny decided he was to change and subtly influenced his thoughts to ultimately put on the mask.

 

Thank you all, anyway!

[fishers64]

On the contrary, I think that you have helped me about the concept of Destiny. I suppose when I say 'destiny', I am misconceiving the concept and using it interchangeably with 'fate'.

If this helps, destiny is where you are supposed to end up, whereas fate is where you actually end up. (I think...)

 

In Bionicle, though, it would seem that destiny becomes fate, and it is very hard to not have your destiny become fate, at least on the major things like Teridax's takeover.

 

While Takua did mature over his journey of the Seventh Toa, I think I was curious if Destiny decided he was to change and subtly influenced his thoughts to ultimately put on the mask.

I think it's possible, but it probably did it through manipulation of background events, causing him to wander around the island, placed Jaller his trusted friend along with him, influenced Jaller to say the words he did. Destiny I think moves events and motives to influence people subtly without blatantly planting thoughts in people's heads like a telepath or a Komau user might do.

[Quisoves Potoo]

The Core Dimension appears to be defined as the one where the highest probability of what choices people make, including "likely rebellions", occur. So Makuta doesn't overcome temptation in the Core events because it's unlikely that he would. And because destiny is adaptive, things still have a tendency to end up as good overcoming evil there, but it's not guaranteed (such as Teridax's reign, even if temporary).

Your idea is interesting, but it lacks obvious evidence. Can you give more examples?

I can think of a number of events in the Core Universe that did not unfold as they most likely would. One of the most striking ones, or so it seems to me, is the defeat of the leader of the Brotherhood of Makuta by a team of amateur toa and a turaga. Ditto, that same toa team, mutated into Hordika, together with the Rahaga and a few rahi (granted, powerful ones, but two of whom were nonetheless banished to the Zone of Darkness by the Kahgarack), managed to withstand the Visorak Horde and defeat its king and lieutenant. There's also Teridax fusing with Takanuva and being consequently crushed by a stone gate. And a team of six Matoran escaping Karzahni and making their way to Voya Nui. These hardly seem the most likely of events.

[Zox Tomana]

In the 'Melding' universe, a person was transformed into a Trident upon contact with liquidised Protodermis. Was this because their destiny was to become a Trident, or because that trident would eventually be used in some large event?

It wasn't a person who became a Trident, but rather a shovel or some other scooping implement. The people mentioned in the same passage who came into contact with Energized Protodermis were destroyed by it. You could say that the tool was destined to become a weapon that was used in the Core Ware, but I wouldn't read too much into it.

[bonesiii]

These hardly seem the most likely of events.

You seem to be making too much out of the word choice I happened to use there which was only meant to give a general idea that the Core Dimension isn't where all the right decisions are made. Again, I'm not setting out to give you a crystal clear, easily understandable idea of how I think it works because that would be spoilers for my story. The fact that what I said doesn't dispell the mystery in your mind is probably a good thing.

 

Although most of the examples you gave actually were likely given the situation.

[Quisoves Potoo]

 

These hardly seem the most likely of events.

You seem to be making too much out of the word choice I happened to use there which was only meant to give a general idea that the Core Dimension isn't where all the right decisions are made. Again, I'm not setting out to give you a crystal clear, easily understandable idea of how I think it works because that would be spoilers for my story. The fact that what I said doesn't dispell the mystery in your mind is probably a good thing.

 

Although most of the examples you gave actually were likely given the situation.

 

 

That makes sense. In short, it's not like the Melding Alternate Universe or the universe in which the Makuta never rebelled against Mata Nui. But, by the same token, some events go better that in other universes, such as Matoro sacrificing himself.

As for the examples, I think that we are going to have to agree to disagree.

[bonesiii]

Well, I'll just give you one example out of your list to get a sense of what I mean -- again, I'm not saying "likely" is definitely the deciding factor (hence "appears" in my original wording), but just for sake of discussion about your examples -- the first one.

 

It is not likely that any experienced Toa could defeat Makuta, because they've been observed and factored; they're predictable and his plans were designed in large part around all major observed factors. Thus, the highest likelihood is that a "seemingly unlikely hero" would defeat him, if you think about it. Somebody that so far as he could prepare for seemed like a bit of a wildcard (wildcards plural). For lack of better words -- again, don't read too much into my word choice here per se.

 

And, they defeated him in a moment where he was essentially "drunk" from the disorientation of absorbing Nidhiki, Krekka, and Nivawk, at the time when his defeat was most likely. In short, true likelihood isn't defined by outward superficial generalities (like "Leader of powerful organization" or "an old guy") but by the actual physics of what's going on in that situation and what led up to it. It was likely he would design his plans that way, because of the known factors (known to him), and thus likely he would end up with that weakness.

 

In fact, seemingly unlikely heroes (who are actually secretly the most likely) would be one of the prime tools in destiny's proverbial toolbox, as that's a fairly reliable way to dupe and defeat a bad guy. This is a well-known trope in countless hero stories in fact, not just Bionicle. It provides endless opportunities for self-doubting heroes which make for great drama, and it's actually pretty realistic depending on the situation, as overconfidence and planning only for common challenges (by both good and bad) is itself a likely affliction.

 

Also, I was more talking about the likely choices once destiny has already put you in that situation in the original quote.

 

So, once destiny has already put you in this "unlikely" (seemingly) situation, it is highly likely that those heroes would take the right final steps to (temporarily) defeat Makuta since they are good guys, and likely he would keep fighting but due to his "drunken" state not be his usual self able to outsmart them, which was all because he was the bad guy. In other words, I wasn't saying that destiny chooses the most likely events to aim for (per se), but that the Core Dimension is (apparently) defined as something like the turn of events where the people make the likely choices in response to destiny's guiding -- whether to obey or disobey. So, even if you could show an example that is legitimately unlikely in the sense of what you seemed to mean in your reply, that isn't necessarily relevant to what I was talking about. Does this help?

 

(Plus there's the possibility that it was to some extent a bit of a planned defeat by that time, although it's been confirmed that in that case it largely wasn't.)

Edited April 3, 2014 by bonesiii

[Wrinkledlion X]

I think this goes beyond the scope of Bionicle to a broader philosophical discussion on meaning and purpose in the universe, but that's a bit of a conversation-killer. Anyway, unless the Great Beings are truly gods, I don't think they can have complete control over the destinies of their subjects, because that would mean they've mastered chance altogether. (I'm personally willing to accept them as gods, but Greg seems to have been taking them in a less and less metaphysical direction, so I don't think the Matoran concept of destiny really holds true.)

 

Though energized protodermis poses a lot of questions. Perhaps its effects are determined by the Great Beings' will, or at least some complicated system within the MU, as there's no way that EP's transformations are truly random. Perhaps this system (the subconscious of sleeping Mata Nui?) knows what EP is coming into contact with and adjusts its effects based on what the system needs at that moment—we can't let these Toa die, they're needed! Let's just give them new armor. Other times, when the thing it contacts is less important, it randomizes completely and kills the victim, or it changes them into a random object based on an arbitrary impulse. (Maybe whatever Mata Nui is dreaming about at that moment?)

 

That's just pulled out of a hat, but it kind of turned into an interesting theory. Hmmmmmmm

[fishers64]

I think this goes beyond the scope of Bionicle to a broader philosophical discussion on meaning and purpose in the universe, but that's a bit of a conversation-killer. Anyway, unless the Great Beings are truly gods, I don't think they can have complete control over the destinies of their subjects, because that would mean they've mastered chance altogether. (I'm personally willing to accept them as gods, but Greg seems to have been taking them in a less and less metaphysical direction, so I don't think the Matoran concept of destiny really holds true.)

I think of the MU from the GB's perspective more as a computer. For example, with my computer I can command something to happen, and it does it. But another feature of a computer is that I can program it to do multiple commands at once.

 

So the GBs programmed the MU do what they wanted (run around, explore other cultures covertly, and restore SM.) We already have space probes that observe and record data, so the GBs could program one, albeit a way more sophisticated one that also included gravity cannons and artificial intelligence.

 

Now they didn't program the destinies of the Agori, true, but they would have programmed the MU. But you also have to remember that even our computers behave in unexpected ways sometimes. I can command my computer to do something, and it can take 30 minutes to do it. Did I program it to take 30 minutes? No - I wanted it to go much faster. Or I made a program that took too much memory and my computer shuts down. Did I program it to shut down? No.

 

Destiny is the computer program - it's the "commands" that the GBs wanted executed. What actually happened wasn't 100% what they programmed - they got sapient freewilled Matoran, Teridax taking over the universe, etc. But the program also has numerous if-else statements to try to make sure the big major things got done, no matter what. The planets were explored, and Spherus Magna was fixed. That's what the GBs programmed in, and that's what they got out. And quite possibly a whole lot more.

[Katuko]

I've viewed Destiny much like a computer program scheduling things as well. We really need a new Toa to go fetch a Zyglak, and we want Matoran A to do it, because he has qualities that are suited for the job. However, on the way it might be that he meets a Muaka and gets chomped to death. Whoops. Can any other Matoran with Toa energy in him do the job Matoran A was supposed to do? In that case, let's shift some destinies around and try to make Matoran B into a Toa instead. If not, then we get The Kingdom, with a massive change in schedule due to the failure.

 

The system is in place, and can probably influence things to a small degree, but I'd certainly hope there's not a big super-program in the MU that directs people's actions and actually tell their brains to make certain decisions. That alternative is basically everyone running on some form of mind control towards their pre-set goal, which is a case for predetermination of events and a type of storytelling I just find "bleh".

[fishers64]

I agree with you. As I said in my previous post, I think destiny influences background stuff without pulling people along Komau-style. For example, consider the Mask of Light journey. Instead of destiny force-correcting all of the misconceptions in Turaga Vakama and Takua's heads, it probably just made the Mask of Light glow move a few inches in one way or another so that Takua would go to all the places and suffer all of the events that would convince him to put on the mask, and Jaller to say what he said.

[Katuko]

Vakama's visions are called "glitches", but if I were in charge I'd call them one way for the Destiny system to try forcing his hand towards certain actions because he was completely lost at times... but unlike the other Toa (who would need a Mask of Clairvoiyance) he was possible to reach with input like that.

 

Actually, the Mask of Clairvoyance is pretty BS in my book. I mean, I can get that advanced technology would be able to take all the data available to you and people in the area (via a telepathic sub-power) and form some sort of predicted outcome of their intended actions. But the Mask of Clairvoyance seems to take it a step further, not just simulating the experience like the Mask of Alternate Futures does, but actually going so far as to predict events outright.

 

Although, I guess you could make a case for the mask not predicting anything in particular, as Gaaki only said "one of us will not return", and that could be true for any number of outcomes. Teridax kills one of them (he's very likely to try), Teridax imprisons one of them, the person flees or chooses to stay, etc. Like, if you are planning to go fight Teridax with a team of 6, then the mask could actually be going through the data of "in 10 out of 12 predicted outcomes, the result is one of you dying brutally while the rest use the distraction to stop the villain". The "predicted outcomes" could then include situations based upon the team's personalities, their available equipment, what is known about Teridax, and so on.

 

I wonder if the thing taps into the MU systems in order to read data and possibly info about destinies? It seems certain beings were able to read the destiny of others, or at least make educated guesses. Mata Nui, of course, had full access. I imagine him to be playing Sims, now, but eventually lose interest in the "game" because the commands he scheduled never happened as he wanted them to (because of full sentience being developed).

[Pomegranate]

Vakama's visions are called "glitches", but if I were in charge I'd call them one way for the Destiny system to try forcing his hand towards certain actions because he was completely lost at times... but unlike the other Toa (who would need a Mask of Clairvoiyance) he was possible to reach with input like that.

 

Actually, the Mask of Clairvoyance is pretty BS in my book. I mean, I can get that advanced technology would be able to take all the data available to you and people in the area (via a telepathic sub-power) and form some sort of predicted outcome of their intended actions. But the Mask of Clairvoyance seems to take it a step further, not just simulating the experience like the Mask of Alternate Futures does, but actually going so far as to predict events outright.

 

Although, I guess you could make a case for the mask not predicting anything in particular, as Gaaki only said "one of us will not return", and that could be true for any number of outcomes. Teridax kills one of them (he's very likely to try), Teridax imprisons one of them, the person flees or chooses to stay, etc. Like, if you are planning to go fight Teridax with a team of 6, then the mask could actually be going through the data of "in 10 out of 12 predicted outcomes, the result is one of you dying brutally while the rest use the distraction to stop the villain". The "predicted outcomes" could then include situations based upon the team's personalities, their available equipment, what is known about Teridax, and so on.

 

I wonder if the thing taps into the MU systems in order to read data and possibly info about destinies? It seems certain beings were able to read the destiny of others, or at least make educated guesses. Mata Nui, of course, had full access. I imagine him to be playing Sims, now, but eventually lose interest in the "game" because the commands he scheduled never happened as he wanted them to (because of full sentience being developed).

I may sound a bit crazy, but I feel like you're overthinking it and trying to find a totally "scientific" explanation for it ('cause Bionicle science and our science are two different animals) but I think it could just be nice, old fashioned magic. Why can't it be magic? Up to a certain point I stop believing that everything can be explained with giant robots and protodermis and programming. Why can't Destiny be just regular old mystifying destiny that we can't explain away, and that a whole world of biomechanical robots and their makers happen to study and follow? You've just gotta beliiieeeevvveee

 

Alternatively, if Bitil's mask can go and pull copies of him right out of the past, I'm sure the Mask of Clairvoyance can just tap into the future by the same principle and pull out information and images. It doesn't seem that far fetched to me, considering all the crazy things that Kanohi can do.

Edited April 5, 2014 by Pomegranate

[bonesiii]

I never understand why people try to pit magic and physics against each other. Magic is simply something (which if it were to exist, would have physics) that isn't understood. But if Bionicle were real, those physics would be there. There's nothing wrong with trying to theorize what sort of physics could make it work. That isn't saying that we think it's real -- it's fiction.

 

As for that mask, we have the Mask of Time and Bitil's mask is a subpower, I see no reason why that couldn't be another subpower of it. The real fascinating question is whether destiny itself taps into actual future-seeing.

 

I'd love to comment further but ziplip.

[Katuko]

I may sound a bit crazy, but I feel like you're overthinking it and trying to find a totally "scientific" explanation for it ('cause Bionicle science and our science are two different animals) but I think it could just be nice, old fashioned magic.

Problem is, we have Vakama's visions designated as "glitches", and other masks seem to at least operate under a set of rules. The further we got in the story, though, the stranger they became.

 

Why can't it be magic? Up to a certain point I stop believing that everything can be explained with giant robots and protodermis and programming. Why can't Destiny be just regular old mystifying destiny that we can't explain away, and that a whole world of biomechanical robots and their makers happen to study and follow? You've just gotta beliiieeeevvveee

I'm the weird kinda guy who needs no explanation for why you can shoot lasers out of your hands, but more metaphysical concepts like manipulating probability (that's a mask too) sound strange to me even by magic standards. I am quite fine with the Hau's force field and the Kakama's speed boost never being explained in full, but I'd really like Clairvoyance to have at least a vague mention of how it does it.

 

Alternatively, if Bitil's mask can go and pull copies of him right out of the past, I'm sure the Mask of Clairvoyance can just tap into the future by the same principle and pull out information and images. It doesn't seem that far fetched to me, considering all the crazy things that Kanohi can do.

You know, I really, really don't like the Mohtrek's power description either. He never allowed pulled out any true past selves anyways, as they all had his Karda Nui form, so why not just say it's a mask that clones the user? Sounds much simpler, and while there's just as much magic going on, it is less convoluted magic.

[TERIDAX941]

 

Alternatively, if Bitil's mask can go and pull copies of him right out of the past, I'm sure the Mask of Clairvoyance can just tap into the future by the same principle and pull out information and images. It doesn't seem that far fetched to me, considering all the crazy things that Kanohi can do.

You know, I really, really don't like the Mohtrek's power description either. He never allowed pulled out any true past selves anyways, as they all had his Karda Nui form, so why not just say it's a mask that clones the user? Sounds much simpler, and while there's just as much magic going on, it is less convoluted magic.

 

Actually in one of the books, Bitil had used his mask when he had captured Onua, and when he brings back a few duplicates, the narrator mentions that Onua noticed that one of the duplicates actually didn't look like Bitil at all. So in fact he does use his further past selves fairly often, it just doesn't mention it every time, you can just guess, "oh, this one is from Karda Nui, and this other one was from when he was visiting Xia, or so forth."

[JAG18]

Concerning why Bitil didn't (or rarely) summon past selves from before he entered Karda Nui, I believe Greg said that if one of those pre-mutated duplicates had come into contact with the pit mutagen, then Bitil would have been mutated that much earlier in the timeline. Thus, it was very risky for Bitil to summon a past self from before he was mutated in Karda Nui.

[Katuko]

Concerning why Bitil didn't (or rarely) summon past selves from before he entered Karda Nui, I believe Greg said that if one of those pre-mutated duplicates had come into contact with the pit mutagen, then Bitil would have been mutated that much earlier in the timeline. Thus, it was very risky for Bitil to summon a past self from before he was mutated in Karda Nui.

The whole "messing with the timeline" deal is the reason I'd much, much rather want the mask to just clone the user based on his/her memories. You can still have them tied together in life-force or something, so that a mishap leads to injury or death for the original. It saves us from all kinds of paradoxes and retcons that the mask otherwise brings into play.

[bonesiii]

Concerning why Bitil didn't (or rarely) summon past selves from before he entered Karda Nui, I believe Greg said that if one of those pre-mutated duplicates had come into contact with the pit mutagen, then Bitil would have been mutated that much earlier in the timeline. Thus, it was very risky for Bitil to summon a past self from before he was mutated in Karda Nui.

Plus, of course, the comic illustrators had no past versions of Bitil to show.

 

But we're getting kinda off-topic now...

[fishers64]

I'm not sure what destiny would have to do with time-bending, but I'll go with it - imagine that a computer saves states of itself as files. A user can access those files and bring them to the forefront for use to modify them. So the "Mohtrek" is a program that brings in past states of the "Bitil" file and modifies them.

 

For Clairvoyance, the opposite is true - but it goes backwards - the future state of the "Gaaki" file transmits data back to the past state of the Gaaki file.

 

I'm sure this analogy breaks down somewhere...