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Why is Bionicle Kinda Sexist?


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I don't disagree that there needs to be more female characters in Bionicle (and other media), and how important it is. But personally, I'd want to get new female characters rather than retcon old male characters and turn them into females. It may not ruin the story, so to speak, but it would make radical changes to it, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with. But that's just me.

How would changing gender be a radical change if that was all that changed, though? Would Tahu be any less hotheaded if he were she? Would Kopaka be any less cold and aloof? Lewa any less flighty and carefree? I don't think the radical change would be in the characters, but in your perception of them.

You're not incorrect, but let's think about this for a moment. What is the point of turning them into females? Theoretically, the only difference would be a change of voice and appearance in the characters. If they were to remain the same personality-wise, there isn't a reason to change their genders other than to call them female. I won't lie to you, I'm not a fan of change. But it still doesn't make logical sense why the original characters should have their genders retconned.

 

 

No reason besides fixing the dreadful gender ratios, no. But that's the only reason for a gender change anyway. Why would you change a personality just because you changed a character's gender? That's pretty much saying your personality is fundamentally tied to your gender, which it isn't. If it was, there wouldn't be a wide variety of personalities.

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I don't disagree that there needs to be more female characters in Bionicle (and other media), and how important it is. But personally, I'd want to get new female characters rather than retcon old male characters and turn them into females. It may not ruin the story, so to speak, but it would make radical changes to it, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with. But that's just me.

 

How would changing gender be a radical change if that was all that changed, though? Would Tahu be any less hotheaded if he were she? Would Kopaka be any less cold and aloof? Lewa any less flighty and carefree? I don't think the radical change would be in the characters, but in your perception of them.
You're not incorrect, but let's think about this for a moment. What is the point of turning them into females? Theoretically, the only difference would be a change of voice and appearance in the characters. If they were to remain the same personality-wise, there isn't a reason to change their genders other than to call them female. I won't lie to you, I'm not a fan of change. But it still doesn't make logical sense why the original characters should have their genders retconned.

No reason besides fixing the dreadful gender ratios, no. But that's the only reason for a gender change anyway. Why would you change a personality just because you changed a character's gender? That's pretty much saying your personality is fundamentally tied to your gender, which it isn't. If it was, there wouldn't be a wide variety of personalities.

I guess you make a good point. But the question is, does Lego understand? No matter what we think, they make the decisions, and do you think that they will retcon genders (honest question)?

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I don't disagree that there needs to be more female characters in Bionicle (and other media), and how important it is. But personally, I'd want to get new female characters rather than retcon old male characters and turn them into females. It may not ruin the story, so to speak, but it would make radical changes to it, which I wouldn't be too comfortable with. But that's just me.

How would changing gender be a radical change if that was all that changed, though? Would Tahu be any less hotheaded if he were she? Would Kopaka be any less cold and aloof? Lewa any less flighty and carefree? I don't think the radical change would be in the characters, but in your perception of them.

 

You're not incorrect, but let's think about this for a moment. What is the point of turning them into females? Theoretically, the only difference would be a change of voice and appearance in the characters. If they were to remain the same personality-wise, there isn't a reason to change their genders other than to call them female. I won't lie to you, I'm not a fan of change. But it still doesn't make logical sense why the original characters should have their genders retconned.

 

No reason besides fixing the dreadful gender ratios, no. But that's the only reason for a gender change anyway. Why would you change a personality just because you changed a character's gender? That's pretty much saying your personality is fundamentally tied to your gender, which it isn't. If it was, there wouldn't be a wide variety of personalities.

 

I guess you make a good point. But the question is, does Lego understand? No matter what we think, they make the decisions, and do you think that they will retcon genders (honest question)?

 

The discussion of this topic appears to have been more that they should and not whether they will. If enough people become convinced that they should, the change will follow.

 

Folks, can we please try to shy away from the super-long posts? No real rule against them (and I'm one to talk, right? :P), but it makes it hard to keep up, and I'm seeing a lot of all-caps creeping into them and it can be a mite overwhelming for those who you are disagreeing with.

I never thought I'd see bones, legendary for the verbose and loquacious post, give such advice. Wonders never cease.

 

~B~

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I think perhaps if Bionicle made a Beast Wars-like total reboot, it wouldn't hurt at all to change characters' genders, since they are essentially new characters just modeled after the old ones. But retconning gender of existing characters for a sequel would just be strange. The gender-element restrictions, on the other hand, deserve to be blown to cordak. Theyre nonsensical, anti-representation and contributed nothing useful or interesting whatsoever to the series.

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I think that generally speaking, there should be a few differences between the various incarnations of the characters when it's a separate continuity. After all, they'll be living out a somewhat different story, having very different experiences, and they will grow and develop in different ways to the originals. A gender change here and there wouldn't affect all that much (I'd love to see a team with a male Gali analogue and female Kopaka and Pohatu... not that that's ever gonna happen.)

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Well, this debate has gone well. I put my idea on the table, and now on Tumblr I have been called out as a racist, said that I had a 100% ###### oppinion, simply because I made the rhetorical statement of saying that if there was an equal amount of males and females in Bionicle, we should have an equal amount of Black and White characters, to show that biomechanical creatures are in fact not human, and there are a lot of factors involved in representation since this is a toyline after all.

 

Great to know the community is great in BZPower.

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How could they possibly make characters that represent racial or ethnic groups when Bionicle characters look nothing like people? That makes no sense. The only thing Bionicle can use in terms of representation is gender, since gender is a thing in that world. I don't think you can compare race and gender in this context, and that's why your opinion had such a poor reception. 

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The majority of those who bought the toys are male... so they made the majority of the cast male. Back before the canon was handed down that only Ga-Koronans were female, I assumed all villages were mixed gender, and my 11-year-old-self was totally okay with that. It is my sincere hope that they introduce a balanced ratio of male/female characters this time around, but if Natalie Breez is anything to judge by, they won't.

 

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Well, this debate has gone well. I put my idea on the table, and now on Tumblr I have been called out as a racist, said that I had a 100% [redacted] oppinion, simply because I made the rhetorical statement of saying that if there was an equal amount of males and females in Bionicle, we should have an equal amount of Black and White characters, to show that biomechanical creatures are in fact not human, and there are a lot of factors involved in representation since this is a toyline after all.

 

Great to know the community is great in BZPower.

Ok, I'll bite.

 

It isn't BIONICLE's job to be 100% equal and teach kids to be 100% nice and fair.

Should we have black and white Bionicle's so we don't upset any different groups?

So, you're saying you see absolutely nothing wrong with this statement? You preface it by stating that Bionicle isn't the place to look for equal representation, or for 100% nice and fairness and then proceed to write "should we have black and white Bionicle's so we don't upset any different groups?" On one hand, there is no race in Bionicle like there is in real life so immediately your point holds 0 water within this discussion. Secondly, you're acting like putting in other demographics is some sort of equality-favor that media shouldn't be held accountable for, since media doesn't have to be "100% nice and fair."

 

Yeah, it's a poor opinion since it brings absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand and its existence relies on shutting down discussion and others' opinions on what they would like to see in Bionicle going forward. On top of that, it can definitely be seen as racist insofar that you stated Bionicle doesn't have to be "100% equal" and then state as if excluding other races and so forth would be fine if they all did have real-world races -- meaning, cutting down representation for other groups of fans and people and making it harder for them to identify with the characters and, if this were criticized by those fans, I'd imagine you'd just pull out this opinion in that instance ("Bionicle doesn't have to do anything you like, they don't have to be 100% fair")?

 

Either way, your position definitely seems to be against including a larger female presence in the series going forward (which is what a lot of fans want), along with shutting down the statements others hold about where Bionicle messed up with its female characters in the past and pitfalls the writers shouldn't fall into again. But in conflating that with race, the entire statement you made comes off as at least somewhat racist, in terms of that it appears you are saying it'd be fine if Bionicle excluded other races (if they did have actual races in the story) on the basis that it doesn't have to be "100% nice and fair."

 

 

So, basically... it's just not well thought out, nor is it well worded, and it's maligning a lot of people and when an opinion maligns people it's really not a positive one to hold.

 

Also, don't bypass the word filter (you can get in trouble for it, future reference).

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Well, this debate has gone well. I put my idea on the table, and now on Tumblr I have been called out as a racist, said that I had a 100% [redacted] oppinion, simply because I made the rhetorical statement of saying that if there was an equal amount of males and females in Bionicle, we should have an equal amount of Black and White characters, to show that biomechanical creatures are in fact not human, and there are a lot of factors involved in representation since this is a toyline after all. Great to know the community is great in BZPower.

Ok, I'll bite. 

It isn't BIONICLE's job to be 100% equal and teach kids to be 100% nice and fair.Should we have black and white Bionicle's so we don't upset any different groups?

So, you're saying you see absolutely nothing wrong with this statement? You preface it by stating that Bionicle isn't the place to look for equal representation, or for 100% nice and fairness and then proceed to write "should we have black and white Bionicle's so we don't upset any different groups?" On one hand, there is no race in Bionicle like there is in real life so immediately your point holds 0 water within this discussion. Secondly, you're acting like putting in other demographics is some sort of equality-favor that media shouldn't be held accountable for, since media doesn't have to be "100% nice and fair."Yeah, it's a poor opinion since it brings absolutely nothing to the discussion at hand and its existence relies on shutting down discussion and others' opinions on what they would like to see in Bionicle going forward. On top of that, it can definitely be seen as racist insofar that you stated Bionicle doesn't have to be "100% equal" and then state as if excluding other races and so forth would be fine if they all did have real-world races -- meaning, cutting down representation for other groups of fans and people and making it harder for them to identify with the characters and, if this were criticized by those fans, I'd imagine you'd just pull out this opinion in that instance ("Bionicle doesn't have to do anything you like, they don't have to be 100% fair")?Either way, your position definitely seems to be against including a larger female presence in the series going forward (which is what a lot of fans want), along with shutting down the statements others hold about where Bionicle messed up with its female characters in the past and pitfalls the writers shouldn't fall into again. But in conflating that with race, the entire statement you made comes off as at least somewhat racist, in terms of that it appears you are saying it'd be fine if Bionicle excluded other races (if they did have actual races in the story) on the basis that it doesn't have to be "100% nice and fair."So, basically... it's just not well thought out, nor is it well worded, and it's maligning a lot of people and when an opinion maligns people it's really not a positive one to hold.Also, don't bypass the word filter.

Wasn't that quote from awhile ago? I don't think we need to bring it back up.

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The majority of those who bought the toys are male... so they made the majority of the cast male. Back before the canon was handed down that only Ga-Koronans were female, I assumed all villages were mixed gender, and my 11-year-old-self was totally okay with that. It is my sincere hope that they introduce a balanced ratio of male/female characters this time around, but if Natalie Breez is anything to judge by, they won't.

 

- Heir

I don't know, social issues have gotten a lot more traction since Hero Factory started. Even Marvel is changing the gender of some of their big heroes (Thor and I think there was another one that I can't recall) . Now would be as good a time as any for them to change the gender ratio.
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Well, this debate has gone well. I put my idea on the table, and now on Tumblr I have been called out as a racist, said that I had a 100% [boop] oppinion, simply because I made the rhetorical statement of saying that if there was an equal amount of males and females in Bionicle, we should have an equal amount of Black and White characters, to show that biomechanical creatures are in fact not human, and there are a lot of factors involved in representation since this is a toyline after all.

 

Great to know the community is great in BZPower.

See, there's the problem: This wasn't supposed to be a debate. The topic is titled "Why is Bionicle kinda sexist?" not "Is Bionicle kinda sexist?". It's a fact that basically everyone agrees on in some form or another, the topic was made to discuss why it happened, not debate its actuality. Passing judgement on the entire 'debate' just 'cause it didn't work in your favor isn't really fair, either; it involves everyone, and everything that everyone has said. Your comment, while people may have reacted unkindly to it, did stimulate the discussion.

 

In addition to what Narglepuff said in response to this:

 

Back on like, page 1, I made the point that voice actors and borrowing elements of other cultures can be a substitute for straight-up skin tone to represent different races, and as it happens, Bionicle did pretty well in that department, considering that Mata Nui was voiced by Michael Dorn and the entirety of Bionicle started out being based very heavily on Maori tribes, which a lot of us probably wouldn't even know exist if it weren't for Bionicle. Even despite all this, it's just common sense that gender is more easily represented than race when it comes to robots (also there's only two standard/predominantly acknowledged genders, whereas boiling all races down to black and white is just, like, a really narrow definition and missing the point of diversity), and why do we need to have either EVERYTHING represented, or NOTHING? Everything isn't so black and white. (That was also a pun.) The topic wasn't about all types of representation, just one: they one they really messed up. Your argument was a logical fallacy, and sorta misdirecting. Robots aren't human, technically true, but they're human enough in Bionicle for it to literally be as easy as changing some "he"s to "she"s here and there to fix the gender issue.

 

That's why your "rhetorical statement to prove a point" offended people, it implies that your statement and point are both true, which people disagreed with. It comes across as condescending to some people when you make statements like that, 'cause the implication that it's true also implies that it's something everyone should already know and that they're dumb for not having considered it at first and forcing you to point it out for them. You have to consider how people will interpret what you say, 'cause sometimes innocent, well meaning statements will come across really rude and provocative and you can't blame folks for reacting to that. It's hard to convey tone over the net, so you have to choose your words carefully in delicate powder keg topics like these.

 

Anyways, if so many folks got so outraged about it, isn't that a sign that maybe they all had a reason?  :P

 

Also keep in mind not everyone on tumblr is also on BZPower; I've seen BZP content leak over into the general not-registered-on-BZP Bionicle community there. Actually, keep in mind that not everyone on BZPower was in this discussion. There was only a small handful of folks practically having an extended back and forth on the topic, you can't attack the entire BZP community for this one topic based on a few comments made towards one statement. The fact that they didn't voice their opinions on BZPower itself at least shows that they have some decency and sense of respect, choosing to take it outside to the parking lot to whine about it in their own space where it won't pollute or involve the rest of BZP.

 

Don't take anything too personally, people are allowed to be angry over things that make them angry. tumblr's a good place to vent. Try not to let your feelings get hurt by what random people online say-- or by what other people say in general. The world is full of very, very verbally acrobatic people. You're not a bad person for saying anything that you said, and you shouldn't let people make you think you are. 

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Well, this debate has gone well. I put my idea on the table, and now on Tumblr I have been called out as a racist, said that I had a 100% ###### oppinion, simply because I made the rhetorical statement of saying that if there was an equal amount of males and females in Bionicle, we should have an equal amount of Black and White characters, to show that biomechanical creatures are in fact not human, and there are a lot of factors involved in representation since this is a toyline after all.

 

Great to know the community is great in BZPower.

 

I'm not on Tumblr at all, so I really don't know what happened there.  Regardless, I think people should have kept their responses to you on BZP, since going to a completely different website seems rather unproductive and somewhat like talking behind your back.

 

That said, since you did put your idea on the table, are you willing to discuss it further?  Kitania and Pomegranate obviously dumped a ton of stuff for you to read and respond to, so I hope you don't see me as wedging myself in when I ask if you'd be willing to respond to my questions back on page one.  I legitimately do want to know more about your opinion because I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

 

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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.


While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.
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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

 

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

 

 

Especially for children, toys and fiction can teach a lot of things.

 

If LEGO isn't concerned about putting a good influence on children then why do they have policies against making certain themes and violence?

 

And like I said before, it's not just what it teaches, it can have a direct effect on a lot of people.

 

 

 

And dang, this topic is like energized protodermis, it just keeps leaking back to the surface.  :D  (I'm sorry I feel really proud of that simile..)

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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

I grew up with Bionicle. It didn't teach me that men are better than women, or that women can't be heroes. If anyone "learned" that from Bionicle, then please let us know.

In the time before time, the Great Spirit descended from the heavens, carrying with him the ones called the Matoran, to this island paradise. We were separate and without purpose, so the great spirit blessed us with the Three Virtues: Unity, Duty and Destiny. We embraced these gifts and in gratitude named our home Mata Nui, after the great spirit himself.

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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

I grew up with Bionicle. It didn't teach me that men are better than women, or that women can't be heroes. If anyone "learned" that from Bionicle, then please let us know.

 

Just because you are not aware of any distinct change in your thinking because of Bionicle does not mean it didn't teach anyone anything. The things you learn from media aren't always outright stated or very direct. You need to think larger than yourself, and also consider that maybe you just didn't realize that it taught you something. I for one learned that if I put one or two girls in my stories (I wrote a lot as a kid, with Bionicle as a big influence), they were good enough and I had met the girl quota. It also set the standard for me for what to expect from stories based around toys, and such. "Darker and Edgier is a good way to make your stuff interesting" is something else that I got from Bionicle, which is very debatable. I definitely enjoyed stories about robots and fantasy a bit more after I got into Bionicle. It taught me that there are girl toys and boy toys and god forbid I get the wrong kind. 

 

An exception to the rule does not disprove anything.

 

It's good on you that you didn't get anything bad out of it, but other kids who may not have had the same upbringing and been exposed to the same media as you were. If a child is told by their parents that men are better than women, or stronger or more important or whatever, and they look at Bionicle, it suddenly becomes evidence of that. Only time I'd seen a female be a leader in Bionicle is when they're the villains, or Helryx who was never even mentioned in any of the official books or comics, so what's that supposed to teach kids? Maybe it wasn't done to tell kids that women can't be leaders and if they are then they're evil, but that's something that kids could think or have imprinted upon them with little effort. Bionicle was not obligated in any way to teach kids that women are good leaders, that's not its job, but it still ended up providing stories that can be used as evidence against it. It's not their fault, it wasn't done intentionally, but the fact remains that there is a bad influence present and they could've tried harder to prevent that, but didn't even consider it 'cause "girls don't play with LEGOs" and "we are old guys who have no idea how the female psyche works let alone that of youth" and they just didn't care about that.

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I for one learned that if I put one or two girls in my stories (I wrote a lot as a kid, with Bionicle as a big influence), they were good enough and I had met the girl quota.

 

The fact that you think you need to make sure you have a set number of girls in your novel rather than creating interesting characters in general says loads about your point of view on the matter.

 

 

It taught me that there are girl toys and boy toys and god forbid I get the wrong kind.

 

 

But there are girl toys and boy toys. Barbies are MEANT for girls, and Bionicles were MEANT for boys - that's why the gender ratio is so imbalanced in-story. More male characters means more male sets, which means - considering young boys were the target audience of Bionicle - boys were more likely to spend money on Bionicles. A boy would probably want to buy a Jaller set rather than a Hahli because, well, Jaller is a boy too. It doesn't mean Hahli wasn't a cool character as Jaller was, or that she was somehow less important - it's just the ways young boys think. That's the way it is.

 

If you don't get what I'm saying - how many 12-year-old Star Wars fans do you imagine spending money on a Princess Leia action figure?

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In response to the "Why" question, I think what sexism Bionicle had started out with good intentions. A great deal of toys aimed at boys have a pitiful gender ratio (a result of years and years of gendered marketing in the toy industry), and in Bionicle's early development it very nearly had no female Toa at all. Thanks in part to Robin Smith from Lego's legal department, who lobbied for the inclusion of female characters, Toa Gali and all the Ga-Matoran were made female. I imagine the gender-locking of Ga-Matoran was done to ensure that there would ALWAYS be at least one female hero per team, but unfortunately not only did it fail to do so (after the introduction of the Glatorian, which SHOULD have had the opposite effect by allowing for females of other tribes), but it resulted in a hard-coded imbalance to Bionicle's gender ratios. On top of that, the fact that each tribe of Matoran had a tendency toward certain personality traits, most Ga-Matoran and Toa of Water ended up cast as diplomatic peacekeepers, or "team moms" who tried to reconcile the clash of personalities between other team members. Neither of these character traits are necessarily sexist in stories with a wide range of female character types, but in the almost total absence of female characters with personalities other than that, the typical Ga-Matoran personality basically ended up reinforcing them as stereotypes (which, when applied to a binary-gendered tribe, resulted in the Toa Orde fiasco).

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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

I grew up with Bionicle. It didn't teach me that men are better than women, or that women can't be heroes. If anyone "learned" that from Bionicle, then please let us know.

 

-snip-

Are you suggesting that I am unaware of what I'm being taught? Do explain further.

In the time before time, the Great Spirit descended from the heavens, carrying with him the ones called the Matoran, to this island paradise. We were separate and without purpose, so the great spirit blessed us with the Three Virtues: Unity, Duty and Destiny. We embraced these gifts and in gratitude named our home Mata Nui, after the great spirit himself.

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diplomatic peacekeepers, or "team moms" who tried to reconcile the clash of personalities between other team members. Neither of these character traits are necessarily sexist in stories with a wide range of female character types, but in the almost total absence of female characters with personalities other than that

Quite literally the only notable females in the story who fit that archetype are Nokama and Gali. 

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diplomatic peacekeepers, or "team moms" who tried to reconcile the clash of personalities between other team members. Neither of these character traits are necessarily sexist in stories with a wide range of female character types, but in the almost total absence of female characters with personalities other than that

Quite literally the only notable females in the story who fit that archetype are Nokama and Gali. 

 

 

...who were, notably, the only female Toa in the main story before it plunged headfirst into dark and edgy pretensions, which was the only reason Toa Hahli WASN'T a peacemaker, as in a dark and edgy story you're supposed to mock the concept of peace as much as possible.

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Yeah, there's a scene in the Inika storyline where Hahli meets Dalu. Hahli expresses surprise at the sight of a fierce warrior Ga-Matoran. Dalu responds that Hahli obviously expects all Ga-Matoran to be gentle peacemakers (which heavily suggests that all the ones on Mata Nui were.) Then Dalu clarifies that she and the other Voya Nui Ga-Matoran used to be that way as well.

 

Dalu and Hahli are great characters, but this exchange suggests that they and most other Ga-characters have "sweet and gentle" as their default personality, which is only changed by their experiences. Even Helryx- in her early life she invented the Toa Code to stop the Toa from killing their enemies, but in later life she has grown cynical and pragmatic enough to remove herself from it.

 

I'm kind of on the fence about this sort of thing- yes, showing that a character's personality has changed over time is important for characterisation, but did all the females really need to begin with the same default settings? It kind of implies that the Great Beings were right all along.

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I for one learned that if I put one or two girls in my stories (I wrote a lot as a kid, with Bionicle as a big influence), they were good enough and I had met the girl quota.

 

The fact that you think you need to make sure you have a set number of girls in your novel rather than creating interesting characters in general says loads about your point of view on the matter.

 

I see people say this all the time, but isn't it interesting how a majority of the "interesting characters" people create are arbitrarily male? I think being conscious of how accurately your story reflects reality in instances like gender, when applicable, does not contradict creating interesting characters. Contradict isnt quite the word I'm thinking of, but I can't for the life of me think of the word I want.

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...who were, notably, the only female Toa in the main story before it plunged headfirst into dark and edgy pretensions, which was the only reason Toa Hahli WASN'T a peacemaker, as in a dark and edgy story you're supposed to mock the concept of peace as much as possible.

Not at all. The concept of peace and tranquility had always been mocked by villains. Are you implying that Hahli was a dark, cynical character just because she wasn't an overly peaceful one? The whole idea of being a tough, cynical Toa was actually parodied with the whole "Hahli the barbarian" in Prisoners of the Pit. Hahli didn't play the role of diplomat because the Toa Inika didn't squabble like the Toa Metru and Toa Nuva, and because she wasn't the type to do it. Also, the female Toa characters were not the only females in the story by 2005. Aside from all the Matoran on Mata Nui, you had Krahka, Lariska, and Roodaka.

 

Yes, the gender ratio's busted. We've established that was a problem.

 

Even Helryx- in her early life she invented the Toa Code to stop the Toa from killing their enemies, but in later life she has grown cynical and pragmatic enough to remove herself from it.

 

Where did you get this? I don't think Helryx invented the code, as we have no indication she ever followed it. The whole reason Toa weren't allowed into the Order when she founded it early in her life was because they followed the Code and her their own destinies. 

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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...who were, notably, the only female Toa in the main story before it plunged headfirst into dark and edgy pretensions, which was the only reason Toa Hahli WASN'T a peacemaker, as in a dark and edgy story you're supposed to mock the concept of peace as much as possible.

Not at all. The concept of peace and tranquility had always been mocked by villains. Are you implying that Hahli was a dark, cynical character just because she wasn't an overly peaceful one? The whole idea of being a tough, cynical Toa was actually parodied with the whole "Hahli the barbarian" in Prisoners of the Pit. Hahli didn't play the role of diplomat because the Toa Inika didn't squabble like the Toa Metru and Toa Nuva, and because she wasn't the type to do it. Also, the female Toa characters were not the only females in the story by 2005. Aside from all the Matoran on Mata Nui, you had Krahka, Lariska, and Roodaka.

 

Yes, but in the dark, gritty, portion of it, everyone mocked the concept of peace. Dalu's little monologue about how ga matoran on voya nui aren't gentle is proof of that. Literally what character traits did Hahli have that set her apart from other Ga-Matoran? In MoL, her part could have been played by a sexy lamp, so there's not much there to work with.

 

Krahka wasn't portrayed as much more than a beast, albeit an intelligent one, in 2004, though her 2005 appearance may have been better? Lariska had only appeared as a femme fatale in a bonus story in the back of an encyclopedia, and Roodaka was the same except in the main story, and times ten.

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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

I grew up with Bionicle. It didn't teach me that men are better than women, or that women can't be heroes. If anyone "learned" that from Bionicle, then please let us know.

 

-snip-

Are you suggesting that I am unaware of what I'm being taught? Do explain further.

 

 

 

If you've ever taken a basic psychology or sociology course, you get to learn through case studies and content that yes, people do learn things they don't realize they are being taught (and teach things they don't intend to teach). There's a reason why a lot of time is spent analyzing media, because media plays a role with regards to how people perceive the world (amongst other influences). Fact of the matter is: Bionicle seriously dropped the ball with female characters -- that's not even an opinion at this point as there's sufficient evidence to back up the claim and point out how the story team treated female characters so much differently from the male characters in the story. Evidence that can be found throughout this thread. 

 

Bionicle, as a line, has not treated their female characters the same as their male ones (redundant statement of the day, I know), nor has it given as much time to their female fans as to the male fans (and it's unnecessarily gendered, like... you realize girls and women can love this story and get really into it and are a legitimate part of the fandom, right? So why couldn't it be marketed towards both groups? Or more?)

 

I already iterated that even if every single female character was entirely unique (which they weren't) that's still getting only... an incredibly small handful of female characters per year, where usually a singular personality trait dominates the perception of them in the story for that year (since there's such a small amount of them in the first place). We don't get a bunch of wide, varied personalities and unique interactions and positions for them to be in -- there are literally 0 female Toa leaders who made it into the main story, let alone getting a set (and who aren't insane or evil or what have you). So, the suggestion to fix it is to introduce more varied, unique, well-written female characters and have them more common in the overall story and perhaps even have some female leaders in the future -- treating them on par with the male characters, basically. I don't understand how doing that and wanting that is blown so far out of proportion by some people, or why it's seen as the ruination of Bionicle in some cases, or why that specific idea is ridiculed and mocked... but, whatever. 

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... isn't it interesting how a majority of the "interesting characters" people create are arbitrarily male? I think being conscious of how accurately your story reflects reality in instances like gender, when applicable, does not contradict creating interesting characters. Contradict isnt quite the word I'm thinking of, but I can't for the life of me think of the word I want.

 

 

I see what you're saying. But make up a sentence in your head with a subject.

 

I came up with, "He went to the store." He. Whenever pronouns are used at random like that, it's often a male pronoun that's used. I guess authors come up with ideas like that - and automatically come up with a male protagonist. And they expand on that idea.

 

Or at least that's my theory.

 

 

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... isn't it interesting how a majority of the "interesting characters" people create are arbitrarily male? I think being conscious of how accurately your story reflects reality in instances like gender, when applicable, does not contradict creating interesting characters. Contradict isnt quite the word I'm thinking of, but I can't for the life of me think of the word I want.

 

I see what you're saying. But make up a sentence in your head with a subject.

 

I came up with, "He went to the store." He. Whenever pronouns are used at random like that, it's often a male pronoun that's used. I guess authors come up with ideas like that - and automatically come up with a male protagonist. And they expand on that idea.

 

Or at least that's my theory.

 

 

I'd imagine that probably happens because male is pushed as default for characters in most media, so it gets into your head that if someone is going to do something in a story, if there's no explicit reason for them to be female, you make them male.

Edited by Octodad
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I somewhat agree with your comment that fiction doesn't necessarily have to teach the consumer anything in particular.

While it doesn't need to teach anything, as it's just a product to make a company money, it is a big problem when it inadvertently teaches something bad anyways.

I grew up with Bionicle. It didn't teach me that men are better than women, or that women can't be heroes. If anyone "learned" that from Bionicle, then please let us know.

 

-snip-

Are you suggesting that I am unaware of what I'm being taught? Do explain further.

 

 

 

If you've ever taken a basic psychology or sociology course, you get to learn through case studies and content that yes, people do learn things they don't realize they are being taught (and teach things they don't intend to teach). There's a reason why a lot of time is spent analyzing media, because media plays a role with regards to how people perceive the world (amongst other influences). Fact of the matter is: Bionicle seriously dropped the ball with female characters -- that's not even an opinion at this point as there's sufficient evidence to back up the claim and point out how the story team treated female characters so much differently from the male characters in the story. Evidence that can be found throughout this thread. 

 

Bionicle, as a line, has not treated their female characters the same as their male ones (redundant statement of the day, I know), nor has it given as much time to their female fans as to the male fans (and it's unnecessarily gendered, like... you realize girls and women can love this story and get really into it and are a legitimate part of the fandom, right? So why couldn't it be marketed towards both groups? Or more?)

 

I already iterated that even if every single female character was entirely unique (which they weren't) that's still getting only... an incredibly small handful of female characters per year, where usually a singular personality trait dominates the perception of them in the story for that year (since there's such a small amount of them in the first place). We don't get a bunch of wide, varied personalities and unique interactions and positions for them to be in -- there are literally 0 female Toa leaders who made it into the main story, let alone getting a set (and who aren't insane or evil or what have you). So, the suggestion to fix it is to introduce more varied, unique, well-written female characters and have them more common in the overall story and perhaps even have some female leaders in the future -- treating them on par with the male characters, basically. I don't understand how doing that and wanting that is blown so far out of proportion by some people, or why it's seen as the ruination of Bionicle in some cases, or why that specific idea is ridiculed and mocked... but, whatever. 

 

I understand that things being taught can be unintentional, and things learned are likewise unintentional, but what I meant was that I don't believe that the lack of females in Bionicle taught me anything sexist. 

 

The thing is though, saying Bionicle is sexist for having more main male characters is like saying Monster High is sexist for having more main female characters. It's less about sexism than more about appealing to their target audience. In the latter's case, its for pre-teen girls. In Bionicle's case, its 8 year old boys. No matter how many girls like Bionicle, or even how many of us older fans, the only thing that truly matters to Lego in the end are the 8 year olds that the line is targeted towards.

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In the time before time, the Great Spirit descended from the heavens, carrying with him the ones called the Matoran, to this island paradise. We were separate and without purpose, so the great spirit blessed us with the Three Virtues: Unity, Duty and Destiny. We embraced these gifts and in gratitude named our home Mata Nui, after the great spirit himself.

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... isn't it interesting how a majority of the "interesting characters" people create are arbitrarily male? I think being conscious of how accurately your story reflects reality in instances like gender, when applicable, does not contradict creating interesting characters. Contradict isnt quite the word I'm thinking of, but I can't for the life of me think of the word I want.

 

 

I see what you're saying. But make up a sentence in your head with a subject.

 

I came up with, "He went to the store." He. Whenever pronouns are used at random like that, it's often a male pronoun that's used. I guess authors come up with ideas like that - and automatically come up with a male protagonist. And they expand on that idea.

 

Or at least that's my theory.

 

 

 

To be fair, though, someone reading the sentence is completely free to critique it since, you know, nothing that writer creates is flawless in the first place. And if every sentence they thought of was with "he" and that's how they designed their "interesting" characters, then I doubt their characters are quite as interesting as they make them out to be since they're not trying to set their content apart from what's already been done to death, or have it appeal to a wider group of people by hosting a multitude of genders within whatever story they intend to tell, likely losing the interest of anyone who isn't male (thus it's not universally or objectively interesting in the first place, defeating the entire point). 

 

And then you can go into "Well, why do people go to 'he' as a default? Isn't it a bit of an issue to automatically assume male when no gender is specified?" and so on and so forth. (To be honest, most statements I come up with of that nature use ze or hir, or they/they're [sometimes she/her], as those are usually pronouns I ascribe to myself and thus relate to them more easily and readily than to he/him -- I've not studied a lot on this particular aspect of this discussion before, so I can really only provide that anecdote).

 

The thing is though, saying Bionicle is sexist for having more main male characters is like saying Monster High is sexist for having more main female characters. It's less about sexism than more about appealing to their target audience. In the latter's case, its for pre-teen girls. In Bionicle's case, its 8 year old boys. No matter how many girls like Bionicle, or even how many of us older fans, the only thing that truly matters to Lego in the end are the 8 year olds that the line is targeted towards.

 

 
 
I'm mostly ignoring the statement I didn't quote since it's already been explained that just because you feel you are an exception to the rule, doesn't mean that rule doesn't exist. 
 
But here we go:
 
- Monster High is not on the same level as Bionicle. By this, I mean: media, child media, is heavily dominated with male-oriented lines and content where you see the male characters act like heroes, who do the impossible, break the unbreakable, who are fawned over and idolized as what "masculinity" is (y'know, beefy, strong, mud playing, saving, protectors, etc...). Whereas girls aren't featured in those lines, not because girls aren't fans of those lines or because girls can't be fans of those lines, but because those who create and market those lines don't think girls belong in them as they're adhering to an incredibly archaic view of who women should be (Lovers of pastels, of fashion, of frills and peace and kindliness and cleanliness, of politeness and so on). I don't know Monster High, but I'll point at My Little Pony: This is a female-oriented line that tries to inform young girls that they can be whoever they want to be, they don't have to adhere to the traditional society archetype for who they need to be (but if they do, that's not a bad thing) and it exists to empower young girls who are rarely, if ever, empowered in this type of media whereas boys are all the time.
 
Gendered marketing is silly and a waste as, time and time again, many "boy" toys end up with pretty hefty female followings (Like, there was a statistic around about how 44 ~ 46% of Marvel fans were female, and nearly half of all gamers are female -- a study that was done with Call of Duty if I'm recalling it correctly, I can probly dig it up). If anything, lines and toys and media would be harming themselves by not trying to appeal to female fans alongside male fans, since by and large women are making up large percentages of some prominent pieces of media that are traditionally marketed and seen as "boys club."
 
 Why couldn't Bionicle (to keep things a bit more closely tied to the topic) have a gender neutral marketing campaign? One that tries to pull in girls and boys? Why not give into what female fans of the series want and represent them more, make them feel a bit more like they belong and are wanted? Why not write strong, interesting female leaders? Inventors? Scientists? Side characters that aren't lazily lopped in with a trope, or kicked to the curb after a few short appearances? Why can't Lego care? 
 
Just because "Bionicle was" doesn't mean "Bionicle should be." 
Edited by Kitania
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I understand that things being taught can be unintentional, and things learned are likewise unintentional, but what I meant was that I don't believe that the lack of females in Bionicle taught me anything sexist. 

 

 

The thing is though, saying Bionicle is sexist for having more main male characters is like saying Monster High is sexist for having more main female characters. It's less about sexism than more about appealing to their target audience. In the latter's case, its for pre-teen girls. In Bionicle's case, its 8 year old boys. No matter how many girls like Bionicle, or even how many of us older fans, the only thing that truly matters to Lego in the end are the 8 year olds that the line is targeted towards.

 

 

 

Boom. That's it. That's simply the answer to this thread. Why is Bionicle kinda "sexist"? Because the target audience was young boys, and more boys in the story = more male characters as toys.

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I understand that things being taught can be unintentional, and things learned are likewise unintentional, but what I meant was that I don't believe that the lack of females in Bionicle taught me anything sexist. 

 

 

The thing is though, saying Bionicle is sexist for having more main male characters is like saying Monster High is sexist for having more main female characters. It's less about sexism than more about appealing to their target audience. In the latter's case, its for pre-teen girls. In Bionicle's case, its 8 year old boys. No matter how many girls like Bionicle, or even how many of us older fans, the only thing that truly matters to Lego in the end are the 8 year olds that the line is targeted towards.

 

 

 

Boom. That's it. That's simply the answer to this thread. Why is Bionicle kinda "sexist"? Because the target audience was young boys, and more boys in the story = more male characters as toys.

 

 

But even other "boy's toys" with terrible gender ratios don't go the extra mile of making the entire universe male-dominated. (Well, transformers does; it's just as bad as Bionicle in )

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I understand that things being taught can be unintentional, and things learned are likewise unintentional, but what I meant was that I don't believe that the lack of females in Bionicle taught me anything sexist. 

 

 

The thing is though, saying Bionicle is sexist for having more main male characters is like saying Monster High is sexist for having more main female characters. It's less about sexism than more about appealing to their target audience. In the latter's case, its for pre-teen girls. In Bionicle's case, its 8 year old boys. No matter how many girls like Bionicle, or even how many of us older fans, the only thing that truly matters to Lego in the end are the 8 year olds that the line is targeted towards.

 

 

 

Boom. That's it. That's simply the answer to this thread. Why is Bionicle kinda "sexist"? Because the target audience was young boys, and more boys in the story = more male characters as toys.

 

So, if the question is answered, does this mean the thread gets closed now?  :P

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In the time before time, the Great Spirit descended from the heavens, carrying with him the ones called the Matoran, to this island paradise. We were separate and without purpose, so the great spirit blessed us with the Three Virtues: Unity, Duty and Destiny. We embraced these gifts and in gratitude named our home Mata Nui, after the great spirit himself.

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I understand that things being taught can be unintentional, and things learned are likewise unintentional, but what I meant was that I don't believe that the lack of females in Bionicle taught me anything sexist. 

 

 

The thing is though, saying Bionicle is sexist for having more main male characters is like saying Monster High is sexist for having more main female characters. It's less about sexism than more about appealing to their target audience. In the latter's case, its for pre-teen girls. In Bionicle's case, its 8 year old boys. No matter how many girls like Bionicle, or even how many of us older fans, the only thing that truly matters to Lego in the end are the 8 year olds that the line is targeted towards.

 

 

 

Boom. That's it. That's simply the answer to this thread. Why is Bionicle kinda "sexist"? Because the target audience was young boys, and more boys in the story = more male characters as toys.

 

So, if the question is answered, does this mean the thread gets closed now?  :P

 

 

Nah, because it's not so simple as "this is aimed at young boys so it's allowed to be sexist"

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...who were, notably, the only female Toa in the main story before it plunged headfirst into dark and edgy pretensions, which was the only reason Toa Hahli WASN'T a peacemaker, as in a dark and edgy story you're supposed to mock the concept of peace as much as possible.

Not at all. The concept of peace and tranquility had always been mocked by villains. Are you implying that Hahli was a dark, cynical character just because she wasn't an overly peaceful one? The whole idea of being a tough, cynical Toa was actually parodied with the whole "Hahli the barbarian" in Prisoners of the Pit. Hahli didn't play the role of diplomat because the Toa Inika didn't squabble like the Toa Metru and Toa Nuva, and because she wasn't the type to do it. Also, the female Toa characters were not the only females in the story by 2005. Aside from all the Matoran on Mata Nui, you had Krahka, Lariska, and Roodaka.

 

Yes, but in the dark, gritty, portion of it, everyone mocked the concept of peace. Dalu's little monologue about how ga matoran on voya nui aren't gentle is proof of that. Literally what character traits did Hahli have that set her apart from other Ga-Matoran? In MoL, her part could have been played by a sexy lamp, so there's not much there to work with.

 

Krahka wasn't portrayed as much more than a beast, albeit an intelligent one, in 2004, though her 2005 appearance may have been better? Lariska had only appeared as a femme fatale in a bonus story in the back of an encyclopedia, and Roodaka was the same except in the main story, and times ten.

 

Dalu is hardly "everyone." Her statement was meant to indicate the extremely harsh nature of life on Voya Nui, to the point that it made all these Matoran paranoid, frightened fighters who have to struggle to survive everyday. There was a similar passage indicating something similar with Garan. And it was hardly mocking the concept of peace; it was saying that life on Voya Nui had made its population suitably cynical, and that they didn't have the same ideals as people on Metru Nui.

 

Forget Mask of Light, Hahli was hardly in that movie. Look at MNOG 2, the books, the comics. Her character arc was about gaining the confidence necessary to do something with her life. She lacked ambition and was generally a very shy person, so her companions overlooked her. Nokama wanted to bring out the potential she had, which is why she picked her instead of Kotu to participate in the Kohli tournament, much to everyone's surprise. From there Hahli expanded her horizons and became more and more outspoken, and even received the honor of being Chronicler after Takua became Toa. She took the job to heart and used it to become more determined and confident; this was emphasized in Dark Destiny. As a Toa Inika she was plagued with insecurities regarding her power as a Toa, but by the time she became a Mahri, bolstered by being in her natural element, had gained enough confidence to do what she needed to do, and played a large role in the quest for the Ignika, often on her own. This ended up causing problems for the team, because she kept going off on her own, leaving the Mahri a bit disorganized during the 2007 storyline, something that displeased Jaller immensely, as Matoro kept doing the same.

 

Come now, don't belittle Krahka like that. Her debut story The Darkness Below was great, as she was the first person to actually challenge the unity of the Toa Metru. The reason her whole story's so interesting is because during her conflict with the Toa, neither was in the wrong. The Toa had come to fix a potential problem which threatened their home, while Krahka was just trying to protect her home against people she saw as invaders, as other Matoran before them had been steadily destroying more and more of her living space for the Archives. It served as a great contrast to the Toa defending their home against the Morbuzakh earlier. In the end, Krahka got carried away and tried to straight up destroy the Toa and their home. She redeemed herself in 2005 when she and the Toa teamed up with the mutual goal of defending their home.

 

Lariska was an extremely acrobatic, skilled, high-ranking Dark Hunter, to the point that the Shadowed One trusted her to oversee the whole organization in his absence in Time Trap. What made her dynamic with the Shadowed One so interesting was that she wanted him dead, and the Shadowed One knew it. She accepted him as leader and yet wanted to overthrow him, and the reason why became clearer later on when we learn that she was close friends with Nidhiki and had been witness to what TSO did to him.

 

Roodaka was hardly the same as Lariska. Aside from being a genuine villain, she was a cunning, manipulative, treacherous, a double agent who was merciless, ruthless, and exceedingly clever. She never showed any compassion or vulnerability as Lariska did, nor did she have any desire for vengeance on anyone. She did value Teridax's approval and went to great lengths to free him, even allowing herself to get defeated, in order to free him, which shows that she honestly adhered to the philosophy she shared with Vakama: the weaker should obey and help the strong. Besides all that, her betrayal of Sidorak provided a nice parallel with Vakama's betrayal of his team, and her rule over the Visorak ironically ended with them "betraying" her. 

 

Interesting characters, no? I dare say that had the gender ration been better, we would have gotten more interesting female characters as well, since the story team seemed interested in writing good characters regardless of their gender. 

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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Nah, because it's not so simple as "this is aimed at young boys so it's allowed to be sexist"

 

Oh, I think it is. Sales drove the way the Bionicle story went, not the other way around.

 

 

 

Interesting characters, no? I dare say that had the gender ration been better, we would have gotten more interesting female characters as well, since the story team seemed interested in writing good characters regardless of their gender.

 

Yeah, how many male characters were as cool as Lariska, or Helryx, or Krahka?

 

 

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