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Do you like the Red Star (revival aspect)?


Red Star poll  

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So, I'm curious; seen a lot of talk about it over the years, but how about a scientific poll (so far as we can get here :P)?

 

Note: I'm asking about the idea with its details as defined. If you like some of the details and not others, go with whichever answer best sums up your overall feelings. Feel free to post explaining specifics. :)

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No, strong no, idea.
 
No because Greg really messed with a lot of stuff in the later years that might have worked well in theory but never seemed to come to fruition, especially with the abrupt halt of the serials. I don't know off the top of my head if the Red Star was one of those things from the '01 story bible or not, but it just seems like a massive deus ex machina-creating machine. Regardless of when the idea came about, Greg's writing style wouldn't have handled it well.
 
Strong no because honestly there would have been so many better ways to make the reveal. The serials would have been ripe for this. Mysterious story about the beings on the Red Star getting it to work again, then sending Mavrah down only to come face-to-face with Whenua? Boy howdy someone get GSR on this concept pronto.
 
On the whole, I'm fundamentally opposed to the idea because it just feels like something that Greg would've used as a cop-out.

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avatar by Lady Kopaka


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No, having a random resurrection mechanism was a terrible idea. To be honest, I think resurrection devices are very rarely good ideas. Making death cheap like that tends to undermine many things, including interest in the story as a whole. Why care about a hero surviving or a villain being killed off if upon death anyone can be beamed back? Strong no to first question.

 

The manner in which it was revealed, an infodump from Greg, was even worse, because he didn't even try to plausibly weave it into whatever random serial was happening. Strong no to that one.

 

The idea of it all is the most important thing, though, since it's a lazy plot device regardless of how it's revealed, and a better reveal wouldn't have mollified that much at all.

 

~B~

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No, strong no, idea.

 

The Red Star is just another drop in a bucket overflowing with pointless, meandering story threads. Thinking about how poorly executed the idea was makes me happy the Bionicle line ended when it did. 

 

The reveal was also terrible, though that's neither here nor there.  

Edited by ankyfdarkness

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Unsure, no, the idea.

 

It was kind of cool to have one more mystery up Greg's sleeve, but it was terrible waiting until the line ended to finally reveal it when it had no actual bearing on the story. If it was carefully done with reason behind it, it could have been a cool reveal, but it is kind of odd having a revival mechanism in a universe based on sacrifice and heroism. It just ruins so many amazing stories to know that odds are that the martyr is on a spaceship somewhere. So yeah, mixed feelings about that.

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1. Strong no. This ability of the Red Star is one of the very few things I wish didn't exist in Bionicle. I don't like that Lhikan, Marvah, and who knows who else who died in the MU were brought back in the RS. It makes their death pointless, which is a horrible thing to do in a story.

 

2. I voted for unsure, since I don't remember exactly how it was revealed to us. (I think Greg told Erubus who told us. Correct me if I'm wrong.) But no matter how it was revealed, this idea is still terrible to me.

 

3. I think both are important. I believe the concept of bringing back characters from the dead can work in a story, though it is rare. The TV show Supernatural is really the only TV show that I watch that has used this idea in a good way. But the exception for it is that it only has two or three main characters who are series regulars on it. (Up to season 10, that is.) So one of them coming back time and again doesn't bring the story down. It is even to be expected in some ways. 

 

With Bionicle, however. it felt unnecessary for the revived characters to be brought back at all. And if a story with as many characters as Bionicle, the last thing it needed was beings bringing brought back to life. That is why I think the Red Star should've never had this power to begin with.

Everyone is one choice away from being the bad guy in another person's story.


 


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I don't mind a resurrection system, but there has to be a severe cost of limitation to it to make it work.  And I'm sure the idea has been around Bionicle for a while; how else did Jaller come back in MoL?  But the reveal of the red star, not a fan at all.

 

:music:

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It looks like I'm the only one who said "method of reveal" (joined now by two others), possibly because I kind of misunderstood it.  In general, storytelling relies more on execution than on the motivating idea.  (It's sort of like how Jorge Luis Borges said he was unimpressed by Finnegans Wake, but believed Lewis Carroll had done the same sort of wordplay better.  Even if you love the idea, and even if the idea comes from a genius, the execution really determines the quality of fiction.)  So, even if I had loved the idea of the Red Star resurrection glitch, I wouldn't have enjoyed the plot point if the story around it were poorly written.  But if this just means the fact that Greg had to post on the forum, then I guess neither method nor idea had precedence for me.

 

By the way, this poll is so unscientific, lol.  It shouldn't even be used to generalize about people who browse the S&T forum.

 

- BioGio

Edited by BioGio
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"You're a scientist? The proposal you make violates parsimony; it introduces extra unknowns without proof for them. One might as well say unicorns power it."

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No, strong no, and idea.

 

As others have said, revival machines are usually bad news, especially mass revival machines that can bring back almost anyone. We have two Hydraxons walking around now. Two. Hydraxons.

 

Any method of reveal that isn't the main story is a terrible reveal. It's like if Avatar: The Last Airbender ended before Aang defeated the Fire Lord and the creators told us, "Oh, yeah, he took away his bending. Cool, right?"

 

The idea is the kicker because, as mentioned above, revival machines = bad news. There's a reason he's been pelted with questions about who was revived and they all seem suspiciously like they're fans asking about favorite dead characters.

 

Also, for anyone who's unsure about when the revival machine aspect came into play, I don't have the quote on me at the moment, but Greg straight-up said that that function was invented by him when he started the serial, in his usual seat-of-the-pants writing style.

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Strong no, strong no, the idea.

 

Not only was the concept a poor, lazy deus ex machina to undermine all impact of past events greatly, but it was also never part of the original plan of Bionicle, which makes it that much more detached from the rest of the story.

 

Also, it was simply unnecessary, only created in order to end one serial chapter in a cool cliffhanger.

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Dang, I accidentally clicked 'unsure' for the second question and voted. In reality, my answers would be: no, no, and idea. For the same reasons that others who aren't fans of this reveal have already given.

 

But really, this reveal was just the icing on the cake for me, following the web serials' bombardment of pointless, shock-factor twists and just plain careless, "make it up as I go" storytelling.

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No, strong no, idea.

 

No because Greg really messed with a lot of stuff in the later years that might have worked well in theory but never seemed to come to fruition, especially with the abrupt halt of the serials. I don't know off the top of my head if the Red Star was one of those things from the '01 story bible or not, but it just seems like a massive deus ex machina-creating machine. Regardless of when the idea came about, Greg's writing style wouldn't have handled it well.

 

Strong no because honestly there would have been so many better ways to make the reveal. The serials would have been ripe for this. Mysterious story about the beings on the Red Star getting it to work again, then sending Mavrah down only to come face-to-face with Whenua? Boy howdy someone get GSR on this concept pronto.

 

On the whole, I'm fundamentally opposed to the idea because it just feels like something that Greg would've used as a cop-out.

Sumiki sums up my feelings very well.

 

The revival aspect could have been good, but it's been squeezed in on a whim at the last second in an unfinished serial. It upsets a heck of a lot of existing story, kind of like the reveal of Mata Nui's true form, just with no build-up and no real pay-off.

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I do like that it does not revive characters that had reached their destiny. But I feel like there were easier ways to revive Mavrah. I wanted the Red Star to be something special, but I am not sure that this is what I wanted. I sort of want to know what Greg had planned for it. Right now I am unsure about it.

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I dunno. The problem with it is that no one stays dead, which means there's no tension in the story anymore. When you read about Toa Ernie fighting in a life or death battle, you don't care, because if he wins he wins, but if he loses it's okay because he'll go up to the Red Star and will presumably get back to Spherus Magna in no time (assuming the transportation works).

 

 

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I'm in the middle about the whole thing, and no, I didn't like that it was basically just told to us by Greg. The most important thing to me is the idea mixed with the actual execution of it. I have no reason to hate the idea without seeing how it would have been handled in-story. This is a bit of an extreme comparison, but it's like if we had just been told that Mata Nui is a giant robot without actually seeing it unfold in the story; I'm sure a lot more people would have hated the twist. I don't really see how the RS reveal is "lazy writing" when Greg's recent answers show a lot of thought had been put into, and more importantly, when it was never actually written in the story.

 

I guess I'll just quote myself from another topic:

 

I'm not too fond of the Red Star reveal, but I've warmed up to it somewhat, largely due to the limitations that Greg has placed on it since the initial revelation. It's not full of almost every fan-favorite side character ever, and that's because Greg has introduced numerous limits on what the Red Star can do and has confirmed the permanent deaths of the majority of the characters in BIONICLE. In short, the deaths that matter are still unaffected, and even random, minor ones, like Kodan's, are still unaffected as well.

 

The Red Star can't revive Rahi.

It can't revive Antidermis.

It can't revive without a body intact.

It can't revive without a head intact.

It can't revive anyone outside of the Matoran Universe.

Many people revived on it have been killed since then, by the people who manage it.

It is obsolete in current story, as the Matoran Universe has been destroyed. No one is getting revived by it again.

 

So in short, the RS was not made as a cheap way of bringing back whoever Greg wanted. He's stated he wanted to write a zombie story. Combine that with the build up we had to the reveal in the serials, and it becomes abundantly clear that Greg was setting up the RS as a problem, not a solution. The people on it were not in good condition and were actually insane madmen. The place is run by cold-blooded killers who are not even fully sapient. It sounds like a hellish place, not a nice paradise with fan favorites back.  It also holds a ton of storyline potential, and if done properly, could have been amazing. The thing is, we never got to see the execution in story. We only got the function of the Star in an answer, not as an actual plot. It's why I have refrained from judging it too harshly, especially based on where Greg was going with it.

 

Greg could have revived Nikila (and I know a lot of people wanted her back), Sidorak, Kodan, Naho, the rest of the Toa Mangai, Lesovikk's team, etc, and yet in recent weeks he's confirmed them all to be permanently dead, using the rules he set for the Star. And the people confirmed revived are in unknown condition. Mavrah is the only one we know, while Botar is basically confirmed to have been mentally destroyed by the experience. The rest could all be deranged monsters for all we know. 

 

More so, your earlier claim that it ruins all the "dramatic underpinnings" of the story is invalid. Matoro's sacrifice is still the same, right? The death of all the Makuta in Karda Nui? A 1000 year war starting over two Dark Hunter operatives that are actually still dead? Again, most of the story is unaffected. The main story years of 2001-2003, 2006-2007, and 2009-2010 are unaffected by the RS either way. Had any characters died that year outside of the ones who did, they would have remained dead. And when you re-read the plot of those years, you do with that knowledge? All the tension that came from all those dangerous situations, all the close calls...they all still stand, because those years took place outside of the Matoran Universe.

Lhikan's revival is probably my biggest problem with the RS, but I also see that it has a lot of story potential and I'm quite satisfied by how limited Greg has made its power, which is why I'm in the middle overall. Based on a lot of posts I've read on the RS by others, though, I think most are unaware of the restrictions it has and of who exactly has been revived and who hasn't. I keep hearing claims of it being used as an excuse to bring anyone back and that it ruins all drama in the story, both claims which can be easily debunked. I also question referring to it as a "deus ex machina", as virtually everyone against it has done. That term is usually applied to a plot device that offers an easy, contrived solution to a problem. Not only is this twist not really contrived, it was being used by Greg to create a problem, not solve a solution. The problem was the RS is full of insane undead people and Kopaka and Pohatu are trapped there. The RS was used to generate the drama and conflict in TPTB; we never got to see it through to the end because the serials were discontinued.

 

 

I dunno. The problem with it is that no one stays dead, which means there's no tension in the story anymore. When you read about Toa Ernie fighting in a life or death battle, you don't care, because if he wins he wins, but if he loses it's okay because he'll go up to the Red Star and will presumably get back to Spherus Magna in no time (assuming the transportation works).

 

The Red Star doesn't work anymore, as it can only revive from the MU, which is now destroyed. No one, whether from the MU or not, is getting revived by it again. It's why someone like Karzahni, who was killed on Spherus Magna, has been confirmed dead.

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Credit goes to Linus Van Pelt (Formerly known as Cherixon) and Spectral Avohkii Enterprises

My Memoirs of the Dead entry, Reflectons:

http://www.bzpower.com/board/index.php?showtopic=7351

 

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Yes, no, and mix. 

 

I like the idea of it. Sort of. I don't know, I'm sort of a future-oriented type in terms of story, and I did rewatch that part of LoMN after the reveal - I'm of the opinion that it doesn't really undermine the gravitas. I still have the sad picture of Vakama standing morbidly on the front of his ship, flames carving the word Lhikan on the front of the transport as a memorial to his lost mentor. I still see Marvah running into the lake to try to save his Rahi friends who turned on each other, who still aren't revived because Rahi aren't revived. (In that sense, that would make Marvah's death even more tragic, because he is forced to live on without what he loved the most.) :(

 

Lhikan making it back home after it all wouldn't change all of that. Vakama is still sad, Whenua is still sad, and I still see that grim picture, because that's what the characters thought.

 

I thought Rahi like the Visorak and Sidorak being revived could be cool, but they are confirmed dead. Nikila and her team as well - but they are still dead too. So I don't think it's the greatest thing since sliced cheese, but I'm okay with it being there. It can exist, as I mentioned somewhere else, without affecting the story below. So I find it not to be a big deal really.

 

It's possible (and maybe I would like this more) that the "something alive inside the star" and the RS on the Riddle of the GBs map could have been connected. With this reveal, though, the latter is degraded to a mere symbol, which is kinda irksome since I have no idea why the GBs would use that symbol for themselves. And I mean, the "something alive" could have been cooler, like another Tren Krom or a big death machine with lasers or something more Great Being related. It could have been more amazing, but I'm okay with it as it is. (Technically I guess that's still possible - we haven't seen all of it yet - but it's kinda a hole in that, as you can't fit too much coolness in a space morgue.) 

 

The form of reveal annoyed me though. Ruining a story like that is awful. It just reduces the odds that the serials will ever be finished, and the whole idea of the late reveal irks me. :(

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I absolutely hate it. Having every character able to be resurrected at will makes them utterly dispensable and negates any weight whatsoever to their deaths.

 

Also, the whole concept is stupid; it implies that each individual fulfills a needed purpose in the functionality of the Mata Nui robot, which they don't seem to. Also, if in nearly every case the individual can be resurrected, then that almost defeats the purpose of being able to create new individuals inside the Matoran Universe. Why couldn't they just make new individuals instead of resurrecting the dead ones? Speaking of which, why couldn't the Red Star process take place inside the Matoran Universe? (because the Red Star wasn't originally a jetpack for the Mata Nui robot but they were making up the story as they went along so they had to find a way to work it in) The idea of "well, if the corpse is in reasonable condition, then in can be restored, but if, like there's nothing there, then it can't" opens up a can of worms. What if the corpse lost its head? What if their is only a head? etc. More, given the Red Star's inexplicable sophisticated teleportation technology, then any limitations to the resurrection process seem odd.

 

Also, the way that Greg basically just gave an information dump years after the fact instead of even completing the story himself is terrible, but I won't rant about it too much because I don't want to get my proto reduced like the last time I spoke ill about Greg.

Thank you, BZPower staff. In the past, I wish I showed more appreciation for all that you do. From one Bionicle fan to another, thank you.

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 The Red Star can't revive Rahi.

It can't revive Antidermis.

It can't revive without a body intact.

It can't revive without a head intact.

It can't revive anyone outside of the Matoran Universe.

Many people revived on it have been killed since then, by the people who manage it.

It is obsolete in current story, as the Matoran Universe has been destroyed. No one is getting revived by it again.

 

Well this is news to me. Maybe the Red Star isn't as bad as I initially thought, if people can't be revived outside the MU. Maybe in hindsight, the idea wasn't so bad after all.

 

Still, I think the execution of discovering the Red Star's purpose was rushed. I don't blame Farshtey - he had little time to work on serials and I'm sure he knew he'd have even less time in the future, so he just tried to fit as much story progression into a chapter as possible. Also, the idea of a "zombie story" is intriguing...

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