Extent of Nui Stone's power siphoning

[Archon~]

So the Nui Stine is said to gather Toa Power from Toa in a 3000 kio radius, and enchance their own elemental control, but can it siphon so much Toa Power from a Toa that it turns him/her into a Turaga? Given that their destiny is completed of course.

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

It will siphon the Toa energy of any Toa within its radius. I assume the closer you are, the faster it drains. And yes- it will turn the Toa into a Turaga if it is allowed to siphon enough energy.

[bonesiii]

No no no. Elemental Energy and Toa Energy are two very different things. EE recharges and that's what the NS takes.

No Toa were Turaga-ized in the making of Tuyet's power.

 

Edit: Aaaaactually, see following posts. I'm right that they would apparently not become Turaga-ized, but I was mis-remembering why. It does drain Toa Energy.

Edited October 7, 2014 by bonesiii

[Ragnar Lothbrok]

I would not have thought so. In the Toa Empire universe, Tuyet has an army of Toa. Why not take all of their power for herself, and make enemies such as Lesovikk and Takanuva into Turaga?

 

Also when Lhikan confronts Tuyet in the main universe, could she not have instantly turned him and the Mangai into Turaga as well?

 

It could have a cap with each Toa. I'm not sure, but that's what I imagine it to be.

 

EDIT: Double Kapura'd

Edited October 6, 2014 by Gathered Friends

[LordofBionicles]

What's with this obsession about Turaga? haha

In order to become one you must give up your Toa power which most likely has to be voluntarily, just like the Makuta getting rid of their light-side within. 

And Bonesiii is right the Nui Stone drains elemental power not Toa power.

[Archon~]

No no no. Elemental Energy and Toa Energy are two very different things. EE recharges and that's what the NS takes.

 

No Toa were Turaga-ized in the making of Tuyet's power.

Hahaha that's a good one!

 

And I know they are different, don't worry, I've been involved in the story for a looonggg time, even though I was a shy lurker.

 

Okay, so it siphons elemental energy? Somebody should tell that to the homeboys and homegirls over at BS01, cuz this article contradicts what you're saying Bones.

 

Also, Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet mention Toa Energy as well...?

[John Smith]

 

No no no. Elemental Energy and Toa Energy are two very different things. EE recharges and that's what the NS takes.

 

No Toa were Turaga-ized in the making of Tuyet's power.

Hahaha that's a good one!

 

And I know they are different, don't worry, I've been involved in the story for a looonggg time, even though I was a shy lurker.

 

Okay, so it siphons elemental energy? Somebody should tell that to the homeboys and homegirls over at BS01, cuz this article contradicts what you're saying Bones.

 

Also, Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet mention Toa Energy as well...?

 

The BS01 article uses the phrase "Toa power," which I've never heard used in a technical sense, so it's kind of ambiguous. But yeah, they should change it to "Elemental energy" for clarity.

 

The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet is a little unclear on the matter, but it can be inferred that Tuyet was likening a Toa Stone absorbing Toa energy to the Nui Stone absorbing Elemental energy. She just didn't specify that she was talking about two different types of energy.

[Archon~]

 

 

No no no. Elemental Energy and Toa Energy are two very different things. EE recharges and that's what the NS takes.

 

No Toa were Turaga-ized in the making of Tuyet's power.

Hahaha that's a good one!

 

And I know they are different, don't worry, I've been involved in the story for a looonggg time, even though I was a shy lurker.

 

Okay, so it siphons elemental energy? Somebody should tell that to the homeboys and homegirls over at BS01, cuz this article contradicts what you're saying Bones.

 

Also, Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet mention Toa Energy as well...?

 

The BS01 article uses the phrase "Toa power," which I've never heard used in a technical sense, so it's kind of ambiguous. But yeah, they should change it to "Elemental energy" for clarity.

 

The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet is a little unclear on the matter, but it can be inferred that Tuyet was likening a Toa Stone absorbing Toa energy to the Nui Stone absorbing Elemental energy. She just didn't specify that she was talking about two different types of energy.

 

That's another thing, if you read the story she compares it to a regular Toa Stone and says how it holds Toa Power, and then talks about the Nui Stone.

 

Here's the part I'm referring to just to make it easier for everyone:

 

"We all know about Toa Stones – almost any rock can serve as one. A Toa takes it in hand and places a minute portion of his energy inside. Later, it can be used to trigger the transformation of a Matoran into a Toa. But a Toa Stone is passive – just a receptable for Toa Energy. The Nui Stone is something else again."

Tuyet summoned a fog to shroud her home so that prying eyes could not see through the windows before she continued. "The Nui Stone is active, where a Toa Stone is passive. It doesn't wait for you to give it your energy – it takes it. Once activated, it will absorb minute amounts of energy from any Toa within a 3000 Kio radius, so slowly and surely that it won't be noticed until it's too late. Then that energy can be absorbed by a living being – can you imagine? One being with the power of dozens, maybe hundreds of Toa, or more?"

 

So an official piece of literature talks about Toa Energy (or Power) being the present thing in both Toa Stones (common knowledge) and the Nui Stone (cause for debate).

So since this short story talks about Toa Power, I was wondering, is there any other source where this is corrected?

If not, I believe that the energy being absorbed could in fact be Toa Energy, which would bring us back to my original question.

[Friend of Fire]

Looking at your quote, it mentions that the drain is so slow that a Toa wouldn't notice it until it was too late. Since EE recharges and Toa Energy doesn't, how can a Toa notice a lack of energy but by becoming a Turaga. It seems the Toa Army under Tuyet's control in the Toa Empire weren't at the stage of becoming Turaga yet when Takanuva arrived. It also seems that it's ability to drain energy from a Toa cannot be controlled, explaining why Tuyet just didn't turn rebellious Toa into Turaga.

[John Smith]

 

 

 

No no no. Elemental Energy and Toa Energy are two very different things. EE recharges and that's what the NS takes.

 

No Toa were Turaga-ized in the making of Tuyet's power.

Hahaha that's a good one!

 

And I know they are different, don't worry, I've been involved in the story for a looonggg time, even though I was a shy lurker.

 

Okay, so it siphons elemental energy? Somebody should tell that to the homeboys and homegirls over at BS01, cuz this article contradicts what you're saying Bones.

 

Also, Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet mention Toa Energy as well...?

 

The BS01 article uses the phrase "Toa power," which I've never heard used in a technical sense, so it's kind of ambiguous. But yeah, they should change it to "Elemental energy" for clarity.

 

The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet is a little unclear on the matter, but it can be inferred that Tuyet was likening a Toa Stone absorbing Toa energy to the Nui Stone absorbing Elemental energy. She just didn't specify that she was talking about two different types of energy.

 

That's another thing, if you read the story she compares it to a regular Toa Stone and says how it holds Toa Power, and then talks about the Nui Stone.

 

Here's the part I'm referring to just to make it easier for everyone:

 

"We all know about Toa Stones – almost any rock can serve as one. A Toa takes it in hand and places a minute portion of his energy inside. Later, it can be used to trigger the transformation of a Matoran into a Toa. But a Toa Stone is passive – just a receptable for Toa Energy. The Nui Stone is something else again."

Tuyet summoned a fog to shroud her home so that prying eyes could not see through the windows before she continued. "The Nui Stone is active, where a Toa Stone is passive. It doesn't wait for you to give it your energy – it takes it. Once activated, it will absorb minute amounts of energy from any Toa within a 3000 Kio radius, so slowly and surely that it won't be noticed until it's too late. Then that energy can be absorbed by a living being – can you imagine? One being with the power of dozens, maybe hundreds of Toa, or more?"

 

So an official piece of literature talks about Toa Energy (or Power) being the present thing in both Toa Stones (common knowledge) and the Nui Stone (cause for debate).

So since this short story talks about Toa Power, I was wondering, is there any other source where this is corrected?

If not, I believe that the energy being absorbed could in fact be Toa Energy, which would bring us back to my original question.

 

I was talking about that passage (I control+f'd "Toa energy"). I meant that the best interpretation, based upon what we know about Toa energy vs Elemental energy, is that she was metaphorically comparing a Toa stone absorbing Toa energy to the Nui stone absorbing Elemental energy. I'll add that I also don't think it would make sense for the Nui stone to absorb Toa energy, as far as I'm aware, isn't related to actually controlling the elements.

[Archon~]

 

 

 

 

No no no. Elemental Energy and Toa Energy are two very different things. EE recharges and that's what the NS takes.

 

No Toa were Turaga-ized in the making of Tuyet's power.

Hahaha that's a good one!

 

And I know they are different, don't worry, I've been involved in the story for a looonggg time, even though I was a shy lurker.

 

Okay, so it siphons elemental energy? Somebody should tell that to the homeboys and homegirls over at BS01, cuz this article contradicts what you're saying Bones.

 

Also, Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet mention Toa Energy as well...?

 

The BS01 article uses the phrase "Toa power," which I've never heard used in a technical sense, so it's kind of ambiguous. But yeah, they should change it to "Elemental energy" for clarity.

 

The Many Deaths of Toa Tuyet is a little unclear on the matter, but it can be inferred that Tuyet was likening a Toa Stone absorbing Toa energy to the Nui Stone absorbing Elemental energy. She just didn't specify that she was talking about two different types of energy.

 

That's another thing, if you read the story she compares it to a regular Toa Stone and says how it holds Toa Power, and then talks about the Nui Stone.

 

Here's the part I'm referring to just to make it easier for everyone:

 

"We all know about Toa Stones – almost any rock can serve as one. A Toa takes it in hand and places a minute portion of his energy inside. Later, it can be used to trigger the transformation of a Matoran into a Toa. But a Toa Stone is passive – just a receptable for Toa Energy. The Nui Stone is something else again."

Tuyet summoned a fog to shroud her home so that prying eyes could not see through the windows before she continued. "The Nui Stone is active, where a Toa Stone is passive. It doesn't wait for you to give it your energy – it takes it. Once activated, it will absorb minute amounts of energy from any Toa within a 3000 Kio radius, so slowly and surely that it won't be noticed until it's too late. Then that energy can be absorbed by a living being – can you imagine? One being with the power of dozens, maybe hundreds of Toa, or more?"

 

So an official piece of literature talks about Toa Energy (or Power) being the present thing in both Toa Stones (common knowledge) and the Nui Stone (cause for debate).

So since this short story talks about Toa Power, I was wondering, is there any other source where this is corrected?

If not, I believe that the energy being absorbed could in fact be Toa Energy, which would bring us back to my original question.

 

I was talking about that passage (I control+f'd "Toa energy"). I meant that the best interpretation, based upon what we know about Toa energy vs Elemental energy, is that she was metaphorically comparing a Toa stone absorbing Toa energy to the Nui stone absorbing Elemental energy. I'll add that I also don't think it would make sense for the Nui stone to absorb Toa energy, as far as I'm aware, isn't related to actually controlling the elements.

 

I know, but it specifically says that "it doesn't wait for you to give your energy", implying Toa Enery/Power, as usually one gives it willingly got a greater goal.

 

Also, Toa Power acts as sort of a cap for elemental energy, thus they're directly interrelated. That's why Matoran who have a very small amount of Toa Power in them can't control their element but Turaga can as they have a larger amount that is left over inside of them.

 

Anyway, since Toa Power serves as a cap, having more of it would let you control more elemental energy stabily, it's already known that Toa can absorb elemental energy from their environment, but struggle holding large amounts of it in, and I believe that's because of their limited Toa Power.

 

That's where I think the Nui Stone comes into place. It collects Toa Power and the being that is touching it absorbs it, allowing him/her to be able to have greater power over their element.

[fishers64]

5) Nui Stone absorbs PURE Toa energy, not Elemental Energy, right?

5) Yes

 

3) When the Nui Stone is activated, and it absorbs energy from Toa within it's range, do the Toa the energy is being taken from weaken? If so, is the weakening gradual and they are being drained constantly, or does it happen all at once?

 

3) It's very gradual

* * *

2. Can a Nui Stone be used as Toa Stone, to turn destined Matoran into Toa?

 

2) Probably

 

* * *

4) Could Tuyet use the Nui Stone to turn a Toa into a Turaga(by taking all their Toa Power)?

 

4) No. You can't turn into a Turaga unless you complete your destiny and CHOOSE to give up your Toa power.

 

* * *

5a. Does the Nui Stone have an upper limit to how much power it can absorb? Or can it simply keep taking it in as long as it has viable sources?

5a) I think it probably does have an upper limit, but no one knows what it is

5b. Same question but with how much of that power it can grant to a user.

5b) Definitely has to have a limit.

 

* * *

2. So, the Nui Stone drains Toa power as well as elemental energy. Is it possible for the Nui Stone to drain so much of that power that Toa will turn into Turaga? Or can that sort of thing only be done willingly (or at least be done as a result of willing action from the Toa involved)?

 

2) I don't think we have ever said it drained two things at once. We said it drained Toa power, I believe. And while it's not impossible for what you are suggesting to happen, you would basically have to lock a Toa up with a Nui stone for a long time for all his Toa power to be drained ... and if it is not voluntary, then I am not sure it counts as the sacrifice of power needed to become a Turaga.

[John Smith]

Well, I stand corrected. I didn't think it was possible for bonesiii to be wrong.

Edited October 7, 2014 by John Smith

[bonesiii]

And I sit corrected.

 

*goes to strikeout post so nobody reads just that and believes it...*

[Archon~]

And I lay satisfied.

 

No but really, thanks for clearing that up fishers, you're the man. Some of that stuff should be adder to BS01, I would do it but for some reason every time I make a change it reverts.

 

So this brings up another point though: in order for Toa to turn into Turaga a willing sacrifice must be made. So if a Toa that was locked in a room with the Nui stone were to get Toa Power drained, could they become a Turaga afterwards since all their power has been leeched?

[fishers64]

Well, I stand corrected. I didn't think it was possible for bonesiii to be wrong.

Possible, but not likely. 

 

So this brings up another point though: in order for Toa to turn into Turaga a willing sacrifice must be made. So if a Toa that was locked in a room with the Nui stone were to get Toa Power drained, could they become a Turaga afterwards since all their power has been leeched?

Yes, if they have completed their destiny and they make the willing sacrifice of the last bit. That's what I understand the answers I posted above say - they don't mention the destiny completion requirement, but there's a bunch of Greg answers and official stuff that says that. 

[The Hip Historian Iaredios]

This discussion was very enlightening, I too always wondered about this, but it was more of a casual thought rather than an in-depth analysis. Score one for the lot of y'all that did just that.

[Thormen]

 

So this brings up another point though: in order for Toa to turn into Turaga a willing sacrifice must be made. So if a Toa that was locked in a room with the Nui stone were to get Toa Power drained, could they become a Turaga afterwards since all their power has been leeched?

Yes, if they have completed their destiny and they make the willing sacrifice of the last bit. That's what I understand the answers I posted above say - they don't mention the destiny completion requirement, but there's a bunch of Greg answers and official stuff that says that.

 

Hmm, I'm not sure about the "make the willing sacrifice of the last bit" part, because if that's a requirement it is technically possible to "lock" a Toa, in the sense that he/she will forever be a Toa and can never become a Turaga, by taking all their Toa Energy without their consent. I think it's more likely Toa have to willingly choose to sacrifice everything that's left of their Toa Energy (which can be equal to zero) to become a Turaga. Under normal circumstances this would mean using all their energy for stuff like creating Toa Stones or awakening the Metruans as in Legends of Metru Nui, but if the Toa has been drained of all his/her Toa Energy, he/she will simply become a Turaga without being able to create Toa stones, awaken Matoran etc. because he/she is sacrificing zero amount of Toa Energy.

[bonesiii]

Hmm, I'm not sure about the "make the willing sacrifice of the last bit" part, because if that's a requirement it is technically possible to "lock" a Toa, in the sense that he/she will forever be a Toa and can never become a Turaga, by taking all their Toa Energy without their consent.

I thought fishers meant that the last bit couldn't go away except willingly.

 

My thinking though was that all of it but the bit that Turaga keep can be taken but the transformation itself is triggered by completing one's destiny (and sacrificing your own powers could refer only to the average cases, but could easily be wrong on this).

[Thormen]

I thought fishers meant that the last bit couldn't go away except willingly.

Hmm, that's another possibility. I guess the sentence is ambiguous.

 

My thinking though was that all of it but the bit that Turaga keep can be taken but the transformation itself is triggered by completing one's destiny (and sacrificing your own powers could refer only to the average cases, but could easily be wrong on this).

You mean it's not possible to remain a Toa after completing one's destiny? Because it is, that's what the Toa Mata and the Toa Inika did.

[bonesiii]

You mean it's not possible to remain a Toa after completing one's destiny?

No, didn't say that...

 

Because it is, that's what the Toa Mata and the Toa Inika did.

And they still had their TE. We're talking about if it's all drained against their will, right?

[Thormen]

 

You mean it's not possible to remain a Toa after completing one's destiny?

No, didn't say that...

 

You said:

 

[T]he transformation itself is triggered by completing one's destiny (and sacrificing your own powers could refer only to the average cases, but could easily be wrong on this).

How can you remain a Toa after the transformation into a Turaga has been triggered?

 

And they still had their TE. We're talking about if it's all drained against their will, right?

Yes, but you said completing your destiny would turn you into a Turaga. That contradicts the fact that the Toa Mata and Toa Inika are still Toa even after their destinies were completed.

 

Basically, what I was talking about was: if a Toa who has already completed his/her destiny is put inside a prison, then drained off all his/her Toa Energy using the Nui Stone, he/she would not turn into a Turaga yet since he/she hasn't given up his/her Toa Energy voluntarily. Only if he/she later voluntarily gives up the remaining Toa Energy he/she has (which is zero, because he/she was already completely drained), he/she would turn into a Turaga.

[fishers64]

This is what I mean: 

 

 

Anything that is not standard Toa energy cannot be taken by the Nui Stone.

Edited October 7, 2014 by fishers64

[bonesiii]

Thormen, just re-read my previous two replies carefully. It seems clearly worded enough to me. The bit about the Mata I just answered, in the quote before you re-asked it... I don't see the need to have a long back and forth on what was just a quick explanation of what at first I thought fishers meant...

 

Anywho, thanks for the clarification, fishers. To be crystal clear, when you say things like accessed and used, you mean to spend TE, right? Not to use elemental power while having it? I got a bit confused about wording in the top-right box on that.

Edited October 7, 2014 by bonesiii

[Thormen]

This is what I mean: 

 

 

Anything that is not standard Toa energy cannot be taken by the Nui Stone.

I see, that's a possibility indeed. In my idea the left and middle categories would be merged into one category of Toa Energy, that can be completely emptied by either the Nui Stone or the decision to turn into a Turaga, although it obviously wouldn't be emptied a second time if it had already been emptied before.

 

Thormen, just re-read my previous two replies carefully. It seems clearly worded enough to me. The bit about the Mata I just answered, in the quote before you re-asked it... I don't see the need to have a long back and forth on what was just a quick explanation of what at first I thought fishers meant...

I re-read it twenty times but it still says the same thing to me... Though I agree that we don't have to waste a page on the way that sentence was worded if Fishers already drew a picture of what she meant.

 

Edit: Pronoun fixed

Edited October 7, 2014 by Thormen

[Archon~]

This is what I mean:

 

 

Anything that is not standard Toa energy cannot be taken by the Nui Stone.

This makes a lot of sense, because you can also tie into this how the Nui Stone cannot take Toa Energy from Toa-destined Matoran! I'm sure that could be added on the graphic, maybe all the way to the right with "Turaga Energy" on it's left side, and maybe call it "Initial Toa Energy"?

[fishers64]

XD you two. Let me be clear: 
 
1)

I thought fishers meant that the last bit couldn't go away except willingly.

This is correct.
 
2) 

My thinking though was that all of it but the bit that Turaga keep can be taken but the transformation itself is triggered by completing one's destiny (and sacrificing your own powers could refer only to the average cases, but could easily be wrong on this).

I find this sentence to be confusing, and I don't know what it means. It seems to say that Toa automatically become Turaga when they complete their destiny and we know that isn't true.
 
3)

Thormen, just re-read my previous two replies carefully. It seems clearly worded enough to me. The bit about the Mata I just answered, in the quote before you re-asked it... I don't see the need to have a long back and forth on what was just a quick explanation of what at first I thought fishers meant...

Does the sentence in 2) qualify as an explanation of what I meant? I thought it was something else.
 

Anywho, thanks for the clarification, fishers. To be crystal clear, when you say things like accessed and used, you mean to spend TE, right? Not to use elemental power while having it? I got a bit confused about wording in the top-right box on that.

That is correct. I thought the part about Toa Stones clarifies that, but could be wrong. (I'm open to fixing the diagram if need be.)
 

I see, that's a possibility indeed. In my idea the left and middle categories would be merged into one category of Toa Energy, that can be completely emptied by either the Nui Stone or the decision to turn into a Turaga, although it obviously wouldn't be emptied a second time if it had already been emptied before.

But doesn't the Greg answer I just posted contradict that? I don't see how you can sacrifice zero Toa energy - I think there must be some energy to sacrifice for the Turaga transformation to happen.

 

This makes a lot of sense, because you can also tie into this how the Nui Stone cannot take Toa Energy from Toa-destined Matoran! I'm sure that could be added on the graphic, maybe all the way to the right with "Turaga Energy" on it's left side, and maybe call it "Initial Toa Energy"?

Possible, I guess. Although I'm not sure "Initial Toa Energy" ("Destined Matoran Energy" would make more sense IMO ) auto-translates to that. I meant for the diagram to be representative of energy levels, not energy routes. DME could become standard while Turaga Transform and Turaga retained could be additional. 

 

Also there could be another mechanism for that - it doesn't have to be the same one. 

 

Have to run now...

[Mailli]

Hmmm... I always imagined that toa had to give up their power WILLINGLY to become a turaga. Bionicle wiki always uses the words "give up", making it sound like it must be willing.

[bonesiii]

2) 

Quote

My thinking though was that all of it but the bit that Turaga keep can be taken but the transformation itself is triggered by completing one's destiny (and sacrificing your own powers could refer only to the average cases, but could easily be wrong on this).

I find this sentence to be confusing, and I don't know what it means. It seems to say that Toa automatically become Turaga when they complete their destiny and we know that isn't true.

Okay? I guess if Thormen isn't the only one unclear what I meant I'll clarify, but keep in mind it's only what first came to mind as what you might have meant as I read the post we're replying to (so not sure why we need to worry about it but okay ). I just meant that if their TE is drained by NS against their will first, then they later go on to fulfill their destiny (situations the Mata and Inika aren't relevant to), they would become Turaga immediately upon completion of destiny (since there's nothing left to sacrifice). But I highly doubt this is what Greg means for reasons you showed elsewhere. (Another possibility BTW using logic other Greg answers sometimes used would be that if the NS does drain their TE entirely, that was their destiny, and they become Turaga lol. But I doubt it as it doesn't really fit the sacrifice definition... again, assuming that is meant to be a universal rule, which I do still kinda doubt.)

 

Really if we care that much how exactly it works, I'd suggest another (carefully and concisely worded) question to him. Maybe we could do the "write the question out here and revise it before asking him" thing. (Anybody got a shorter name for that method? )

 

Although I'm not sure "Initial Toa Energy" ("Destined Matoran Energy" would make more sense IMO ) auto-translates to that. I meant for the diagram to be representative of energy levels, not energy routes. DME could become standard while Turaga Transform and Turaga retained could be additional.

Probably the simplest way to say it is that the Nui Stone can probably only take away TE down to a level that is above the minimum required to stay a Toa, and thus also above the tiny amount Turaga retain and likewise above the tinier amount destined Matoran already had.

[Archon~]

Hmmm... I always imagined that toa had to give up their power WILLINGLY to become a turaga. Bionicle wiki always uses the words "give up", making it sound like it must be willing.

I'd suggest using BS01, it's been around for much longer and provides sources for all the information presented.

 

Also fishers, I'll make another diagram hopefully soon to show you what I mean.

[Thormen]

But doesn't the Greg answer I just posted contradict that? I don't see how you can sacrifice zero Toa energy - I think there must be some energy to sacrifice for the Turaga transformation to happen.

The answers don't contradict it as far as I can tell, since Greg said a Toa has to complete their destiny and choose to give up their Toa power. However the question whether sacrificing zero Toa Energy counts as sacrificing Toa Energy is important. It's essentially the question "Is a zero amount still an amount?" and people simply disagree about the answer, there's no way to prove either side wrong. The other day I was talking to someone about the sentence "I ate more than you did, because you didn't eat anything at all.". Is that correct? You could say it's technically correct, but people would avoid wording it that way. The other guy said it was basically a "bad joke". Same as "All martians are green.". That's true 'cause there are no martians, har har har.

 

I don't think Greg ever meant to say something on this subject that was technically correct, but still a misleading way to word it. So that's a big pro for your theory. My line of thinking was simply: a Toa basically decides they are ready at some point in their life to let go of their Toa Energy, and this decision turns them into a Turaga. A Toa can apparently be robbed of their Toa Energy before they are ready using the Nui Stone, but maybe the Toa could later come to a point in their life where they'd think to themselves "I feel like my duties as a Toa are finished, I have developed mentally into someone wise enough to be a Turaga, so even if my Toa Energy had not been robbed by the Nui Stone I would still let it go now.", and that change of mental state might turn them into a Turaga.

 

Okay? I guess if Thormen isn't the only one unclear what I meant I'll clarify, but keep in mind it's only what first came to mind as what you might have meant as I read the post we're replying to (so not sure why we need to worry about it but okay ). I just meant that if their TE is drained by NS against their will first, then they later go on to fulfill their destiny (situations the Mata and Inika aren't relevant to), they would become Turaga immediately upon completion of destiny (since there's nothing left to sacrifice). But I highly doubt this is what Greg means for reasons you showed elsewhere. (Another possibility BTW using logic other Greg answers sometimes used would be that if the NS does drain their TE entirely, that was their destiny, and they become Turaga lol. But I doubt it as it doesn't really fit the sacrifice definition... again, assuming that is meant to be a universal rule, which I do still kinda doubt.)

I see, that does indeed work for Toa who are drained of their Toa Energy before their destiny is complete. But what if Jaller for example would be captured and imprisoned right now and drained of all his Toa Energy? He has already completed his destiny, would he unwillingly turn into a Turaga? I'd say no, since Greg explicitly said Toa have to CHOOSE to give up their Toa Energy. But I also don't like the idea that Jaller could subsequently never turn into a Turaga.

 

Yes, the "everything that happens is destined"-explanation could also be used, but I'm just as hesitant about that as I think you are. It basically turns "Toa become Turaga when their destiny is fulfilled." into "Toa become Turaga whenever, 'cause it's destined anyway."

 

Really if we care that much how exactly it works, I'd suggest another (carefully and concisely worded) question to him. Maybe we could do the "write the question out here and revise it before asking him" thing. (Anybody got a shorter name for that method? )

Maybe that's best, yeah. I'll write something up and anyone who wants can comment. (We could call it teamwork? )

 

Edit: How does everybody feel about this:

 

Hi Greg,

 

There's another discussion BZP, this time about the Nui Stone and how it can't turn a Toa into a Turaga. You were asked earlier whether a Toa who was drained of all his/her Toa Energy by the Nui Stone would turn into a Turaga. You said no, since a Toa first has to fulfill his/her destiny and also has to CHOOSE to give up his/her Toa Energy, instead of having it forcefully taken from him/her. We were wondering how that works out with Toa who have already completed their destiny. If a Toa who already completed his/her destiny were to be locked up for a long period of time in the vicinity of an activated Nui Stone, long enough for the Nui Stone to completely drain the Toa of Toa Energy, what would happen? We saw these possibilities:

 

1) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy but remain a Toa. Since he/she never gave up any of his/her Toa Energy willingly, and will never be able to do so again because he/she is "empty", he/she will never be able to turn into a Turaga.

2) The Toa would be left with a miniscule amount of Toa Energy, some tiny last bit that even the Nui Stone couldn't drain. The Toa could later give this bit of Toa Energy up to become a Turaga.

3) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy and remain a Toa, but the Toa could still mentally develop further and come to a point in his/her life where he/she would say "If I would have had the choice, I would have given up my Toa Energy now. It was drained before I was ready to become a Turaga, but now I am ready to become a Turaga." and this change of the Toa's mental state and attitude towards life could trigger his/her transformation into a Turaga.

4) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy and turn into a Turaga. This however contradicts what you said earlier about Toa having to CHOOSE to give up their Toa Energy.

 

Which, if any, of these options is the correct one?

 

Many thanks!

Edited October 7, 2014 by Thormen

[bonesiii]

However the question whether sacrificing zero Toa Energy counts as sacrificing Toa Energy is important.

Sacrificing nothing means sacrificing nothing... it's simple logic; if you sacrifice zero Toa Energy, you didn't sacrifice any TE. Right?

 

If I give you zero apples, I gave you no apples. Basic math yo yo.

 

 

And yes, that's a mathematical proof, but in this case likeisay you don't even need that as we can just ask Greg.

 

The other day I was talking to someone about the sentence "I ate more than you did, because you didn't eat anything at all.". Is that correct?

That's not the same. Any amount you ate IS more than nothing. But nothing remains nothing.

 

Same as "All martians are green.". That's true 'cause there are no martians, har har har.

No, that's not really how it works. (And we don't necessarily know there are no martians, though I don't think there are, but we're getting waaay off topic now.) It's true that we don't know that all martians are NOT green. Anyways, can we stick to actual Bionicle and real logic/math here pleazerzorz?

 

So that's a big pro for your theory. My line of thinking was simply: a Toa basically decides they are ready at some point in their life to let go of their Toa Energy, and this decision turns them into a Turaga.

Now that's possible, but that wouldn't be sacrificing TE; it would be sacrificing current Toa status. However, since TE enables Toa power to work, I question what benefit it would have at that point. I'd think they'd have no functioning elemental power other than what Turaga have, and the transformation would probably only make them lose Great mask usage. Seems much more likely there's a minimum that they have to willingly give up.

 

Anywho, outta time for now...

 

Edit:

 

A Toa can apparently be robbed of their Toa Energy before they are ready using the Nui Stone

Unless fishers' simple theory is right, that they can't be entirely robbed of it.

Edited October 7, 2014 by bonesiii

[Thormen]

 

However the question whether sacrificing zero Toa Energy counts as sacrificing Toa Energy is important.

Sacrificing nothing means sacrificing nothing... it's simple logic; if you sacrifice zero Toa Energy, you didn't sacrifice any TE. Right?

 

If I give you zero apples, I gave you no apples. Basic math yo yo.

 

 

And yes, that's a mathematical proof, but in this case likeisay you don't even need that as we can just ask Greg.

 

The other day I was talking to someone about the sentence "I ate more than you did, because you didn't eat anything at all.". Is that correct?

That's not the same. Any amount you ate IS more than nothing. But nothing remains nothing.

 

Same as "All martians are green.". That's true 'cause there are no martians, har har har.

No, that's not really how it works. (And we don't necessarily know there are no martians, though I don't think there are, but we're getting waaay off topic now.) It's true that we don't know that all martians are NOT green. Anyways, can we stick to actual Bionicle and real logic/math here pleazerzorz?

 

I disagree but I'll PM you about that since you're right about staying on topic.

 

Now that's possible, but that wouldn't be sacrificing TE; it would be sacrificing current Toa status. However, since TE enables Toa power to work, I question what benefit it would have at that point. I'd think they'd have no functioning elemental power other than what Turaga have, and the transformation would probably only make them lose Great mask usage. Seems much more likely there's a minimum that they have to willingly give up.

 

Anywho, outta time for now...

I'd say it's more like a symbolic sacrifice of Toa Energy (although as you mention there's also the Great Mask usage to consider), but that's also the case in Fishers' theory since a miniscule amount of Toa Energy doesn't do anyone any good. But anyways, I added my idea for a question to Greg in the above post like three seconds before you posted

[bonesiii]

To your question (since you edited it in, I'll quote it to make sure people don't miss it), it seems fine to me. Bit on the long side but probably kinda has to be in this case to be clear.

Edit: How does everybody feel about this:

Hi Greg,

There's another discussion BZP, this time about the Nui Stone and how it can't turn a Toa into a Turaga. You were asked earlier whether a Toa who was drained of all his/her Toa Energy by the Nui Stone would turn into a Turaga. You said no, since a Toa first has to fulfill his/her destiny and also has to CHOOSE to give up his/her Toa Energy, instead of having it forcefully taken from him/her. We were wondering how that works out with Toa who have already completed their destiny. If a Toa who already completed his/her destiny were to be locked up for a long period of time in the vicinity of an activated Nui Stone, long enough for the Nui Stone to completely drain the Toa of Toa Energy, what would happen? We saw these possibilities:

1) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy but remain a Toa. Since he/she never gave up any of his/her Toa Energy willingly, and will never be able to do so again because he/she is "empty", he/she will never be able to turn into a Turaga.
2) The Toa would be left with a miniscule amount of Toa Energy, some tiny last bit that even the Nui Stone couldn't drain. The Toa could later give this bit of Toa Energy up to become a Turaga.
3) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy and remain a Toa, but the Toa could still mentally develop further and come to a point in his/her life where he/she would say "If I would have had the choice, I would have given up my Toa Energy now. It was drained before I was ready to become a Turaga, but now I am ready to become a Turaga." and this change of the Toa's mental state and attitude towards life could trigger his/her transformation into a Turaga.
4) The Toa would be left with zero Toa Energy and turn into a Turaga. This however contradicts what you said earlier about Toa having to CHOOSE to give up their Toa Energy.

Which, if any, of these options is the correct one?

Many thanks!

 

[fishers64]

The question is long, but it's probably what's needed here. Go for it!

 

*has nothing else to say*

Edited October 7, 2014 by fishers64

[Archon~]

That question is great! I'm excited to see a response.

 

HOWEVER, I have a follow up question we can discuss.

 

So lets say a Toa (let's call him OP as in over powered) decided to harvest a bunch of energy from various Toa, and all of a sudden from the goodness of his heart decides to sacrifice all that power to create as much Toa as possible from Matoran.

Now, do you think this is possible, and if so do you think he would turn into a Turaga, or do you think he, along with the Toa whos power he stole, would turn into Turaga?

Now ain't that a head scrathcher.

[fishers64]

So lets say a Toa (let's call him OP as in over powered) decided to harvest a bunch of energy from various Toa, and all of a sudden from the goodness of his heart decides to sacrifice all that power to create as much Toa as possible from Matoran.

Now, do you think this is possible, and if so do you think he would turn into a Turaga, or do you think he, along with the Toa whos power he stole, would turn into Turaga?

Now ain't that a head scrathcher.

Keep this in mind: 

 

 

2. Can a Nui Stone be used as Toa Stone, to turn destined Matoran into Toa?

 

2) Probably

So I would cautiously say that this is possible. Under the theory I posted above, he would not be able to take the Turaga-ization energy from them, so when he uses the energy, all the other Toa will still remain Toa. 

 

The second part regards whether Toa OP has completed his destiny or not. If he has, than he would be able to take all of the Toa energy that he has access to and give it all the Matoran and become a Turaga. If he has not completed his destiny, he would not become a Turaga. 

 

Does that make sense?

Edited October 8, 2014 by fishers64

[Archon~]

Actually, yeah, that makes perfectly good sense. And of course, I forgot to mention that Toa OP has finished his destiny in this case scenario.

However, how would the Toa, whos energy has been siphoned, become Turaga then if they couldn't sacrifice anything to trigger the transformation?

Would they just will it?

 

Sorry, I really want to beat the dead horse on this one to make sure there is no future confusion for members, nad maybe clarify some stuff to be added to BS01.

Thanks for being so helpful dude!

[Thormen]

To your question (since you edited it in, I'll quote it to make sure people don't miss it), it seems fine to me. Bit on the long side but probably kinda has to be in this case to be clear.

The question is long, but it's probably what's needed here. Go for it!

That question is great! I'm excited to see a response.

Alright, the question has been posted

 

HOWEVER, I have a follow up question we can discuss.

 

So lets say a Toa (let's call him OP as in over powered) decided to harvest a bunch of energy from various Toa, and all of a sudden from the goodness of his heart decides to sacrifice all that power to create as much Toa as possible from Matoran.

Now, do you think this is possible, and if so do you think he would turn into a Turaga, or do you think he, along with the Toa whos power he stole, would turn into Turaga?

Now ain't that a head scrathcher.

As far as I know what Fishers said is correct. Remember, in you example none of the victimized Toa ever chose to give up their Toa Energy and Greg stressed that that was necessary. Toa OP himself would turn into a Turaga though, since he chose to give up his Toa Energy.

 

However, how would the Toa, whos energy has been siphoned, become Turaga then if they couldn't sacrifice anything to trigger the transformation?

Would they just will it?

We're going to have to wait for Greg to answer that one Basically Fishers thinks a Toa whose Toa Energy has been siphoned still has a last bit of Toa Energy left (because the Nui Stone can't siphon 100%, just 99.9999999%) and he/she could sacrifice that last bit to become a Turaga, while my theory is that he/she would just will it as you suggested. There's a small possibility neither of these theories is true and the Toa would actually be locked in Toa form forever, but I find it unlikely that Greg would go for that.

[Katuko]

I am a programmer. As a programmer, I see this as a very simple logic operation, especially when dealing with mostly robotic characters.

 

The Toa activates the "turn into a Turaga" routine by mental command. In order for the Toa to actually run this program to its conclusion, it needs to fulfill two simple criteria: The Toa's destiny must be completed, and its Toa energy must be drained to zero. I personally believe this last part is simply a by-process meant to eliminate any quirks that might occur in the MU from having a Turaga retain Toa energy. So the program would look like this (in pseudo-code):

//Script run upon mental trigger at any time
 
If Toa.destiny_complete == False
    Exit
 
If Toa.energy_amount > 0
    //Run script for venting energy. This script checks for a target (such as a Toa Stone or Matoran Sphere), if it can't find one it just vents into the air.
 
If Toa.energy_amount <= 0
    //Run script for transforming the Toa into a Turaga

That is: If you had completed your destiny and given up your energy, you could turn into a Turaga. If you have Toa energy left, it is first drained as part of the process. If you have not completed your destiny, the rest does not matter. You can have a full tank of Toa energy or you can have zero, but the "transform into Turaga" command simply won't work. The command for "transfer Toa energy" would still be available as a separate program, and possibly it'd have a reverse check to auto-trigger the transformation. But I do not think that forcefully draining all of a Toa's energy will have any impact on whatever function makes the transformation work. As far as we know it is not fueled by Toa Energy, it's simply a pre-programmed shapeshifting power that removes any remaining Toa energy as it happens.

Edited October 8, 2014 by Katuko