Toa Kaita

[toajomo]

So do you guys think that the Toa Kaita will make a return? Will you MOC them if they don't?

And has anyone made a decent MOC of Akamai or Wairuha from the 08 Toa Nuva?

[Toa Green Ninja]

At least not for the first wave (we are getting Toa/Protector combiners instead). But later... yeah, totally!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Toa Green Ninja

[Aanchir]

My twin brother and I made Phantoka/Mistika versions of Akamai (with instructions) and Wairuha (with instructions) back in 2008. For what it's worth, I think they're decent... certainly some of the only MOCs from back then that I'm still especially proud of, at any rate.

 

I have no idea if Toa Kaita are likely to return next year. There's definitely a good chance that we might see combi models of SOME kind (besides just the gimmick we already know of, where the Toa are "powered up" with the parts from their corresponding Protector). After all, the Hero Factory and Legends of Chima constraction sets this year both had instructions to completely rebuild two or more sets into a new model. But I wouldn't place any bets one way or the other about the new combi models being actual Toa Kaita like in 2001–2002.

 

You can bet that a lot of people are going to attempt to MOC their own, though, and I'm definitely going to try to be one of those people!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Aanchir

[Lyichir]

My brother and I built Toa Kaita of the '08 Toa Nuva. Here's Akamai and here's Wairuha. We also have instructions for both of them here and here. Obviously they're far from perfect, but given the parts we had to work with I still think we did a decent job!

 

Anyway, I'm eager to try my hand at building Toa Kaita from the new Toa, almost so eager that I DON'T want there to be official ones. It'll be an amazing challenge, but given how awesomely versatile the new sets' parts are I think the potential is there!

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Aanchir AGAIN!

Edited October 17, 2014 by Lyichir

[Regitnui]

I'll just say I'm.intrigued. Never having built with CCBS before, I'm doubtful we can get a creature as large as the original Kaita out of it, but I'm certainly happy to be proved wrong, Chir-bros.

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Aanchir AGAIN!

Kapura'd, you mean.

[UngluedBike]

My brother and I built Toa Kaita of the '08 Toa Nuva. Here's Akamai and here's Wairuha. We also have instructions for both of them here and here. Obviously they're far from perfect, but given the parts we had to work with I still think we did a decent job!

 

Anyway, I'm eager to try my hand at building Toa Kaita from the new Toa, almost so eager that I DON'T want there to be official ones. It'll be an amazing challenge, but given how awesomely versatile the new sets' parts are I think the potential is there!

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Aanchir AGAIN!

The terminology is Kapura'd.

 

Lol Kapura'd at saying Kapura'd

Edited October 17, 2014 by UngluedBike

[believe victims]

I'd love to see Toa Kaita, thought honestly, as long as CCBS relies on the same chunky monopiece torso, it'll be difficult to make them without looking even stranger than the originals. Say what you will about the Mata torso piece, but at least you could stick multiples together without some eyesore balljoints sticking waaaay out there. Plus, I have no idea how you'd armor a torso much bigger than the usual torso. Akamai would have an easier time with Onua's chestplate and larger armor pieces, but Wairuha would struggle to have a cohesive body, I think.

 

EDIT: also could someone with one of the new gearboxes give me an idea of how plausible it is to try the "walking" functions the originals had? could the gearboxes handle the weight of the torso, or would you need to do what Onua does to give it the friction?

Edited October 17, 2014 by Lucina

[Rider Of Spiders]

I'm buying all the Toa for that specifically. I was able to make TWO combiners in Gen 1 (Spiriah and Dagger Spider). I'd like to give that a change and also just have that Bonkle goodness.

[Aanchir]

I'd love to see Toa Kaita, thought honestly, as long as CCBS relies on the same chunky monopiece torso, it'll be difficult to make them without looking even stranger than the originals. Say what you will about the Mata torso piece, but at least you could stick multiples together without some eyesore balljoints sticking waaaay out there. Plus, I have no idea how you'd armor a torso much bigger than the usual torso. Akamai would have an easier time with Onua's chestplate and larger armor pieces, but Wairuha would struggle to have a cohesive body, I think.

Well, as in my 2008 examples, there are more ways to make a Kaita than just using three torsos in a triangle formation. Also, it should be noted that Kaita being nearly over one and a half times the height of the sets used to make them was NOT a consistent rule. Akamai and Wairuha from 2001 were both MASSIVE, standing about 35 modules tall (the original sets, by contrast, ranged from 19 to 22 modules tall). But Akamai Nuva was slightly smaller (about 33 modules tall), and Wairuha Nuva much smaller (about 27 modules tall)... despite the sets used to make them having increased in average height, price, and piece count!

 

The height discrepancy between the two Toa Nuva Kaita is largely because Wairuha Nuva has shorter legs and an arched back. Wairuha Nuva also has more petite chest armor and rounded armor on the buttocks, while Akamai Nuva has burly chest armor and a rounded codpiece. It seems very much like the designers were deliberately trying to make Akamai Nuva hypermasculine and Wairuha Nuva more feminine.

 

The 2002 Toa Nuva Kaita played a big role in inspiring my 2008 versions, where I tried to vary the builds similarly, making Akamai larger and more masculine, and Wairuha smaller and more effeminate. You can see a picture of both MOCs together right here. This also appears to conveniently line up with how the 2015 Toa Kaita might end up, since Akamai would be built from two $20 sets and one $15 set, and Wairuha would be built from two $15 sets and one $20 set.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Aanchir

[believe victims]

Yes, but the way I see it the torso pieces would make it difficult to have a torso much larger than that of the individual Toa. You certainly would have a difficult time incorporating separately-swinging arms like the originals, unless you somehow find a way to fit two gearboxes in one torso.

 

In other words, Wairuha and Akamai could easily end up only slightly larger than the individual sets that make them, which, while it's not a hard-and-fast rule about height, seems weird to me that a legendary combination of the three should end up only slightly larger.

[Lyichir]

Yes, but the way I see it the torso pieces would make it difficult to have a torso much larger than that of the individual Toa. You certainly would have a difficult time incorporating separately-swinging arms like the originals, unless you somehow find a way to fit two gearboxes in one torso.

 

In other words, Wairuha and Akamai could easily end up only slightly larger than the individual sets that make them, which, while it's not a hard-and-fast rule about height, seems weird to me that a legendary combination of the three should end up only slightly larger.

Well, I think I can say with confidence that I'll have an easier time of it than we did on the 2008 versions. Frankly, the new sets have a lot more useful Technic parts (especially taking the gearboxes into account) that should more than make up for the single-piece torso beams (because, let's face it, the multi-piece Inika/Piraka torsos were only marginally better).

 

Separately swinging arms might be difficult to incorporate... but I can confirm that a swinging leg function is NOT that much of a challenge.

[Aanchir]

Yes, but the way I see it the torso pieces would make it difficult to have a torso much larger than that of the individual Toa. You certainly would have a difficult time incorporating separately-swinging arms like the originals, unless you somehow find a way to fit two gearboxes in one torso.

 

In other words, Wairuha and Akamai could easily end up only slightly larger than the individual sets that make them, which, while it's not a hard-and-fast rule about height, seems weird to me that a legendary combination of the three should end up only slightly larger.

I'm already visualizing some ways you could combine multiple torso beams together. There's no totally efficient way for me to put all the different options to the test until the sets are out (or their new parts are added to LEGO Digital Designer). But in Akamai's case in particular there are a lot of possibilities due to the wide range of parts that Onua includes (including, among other things, a 9x9 torso beam, two Y-joints, and four Toa Hordika neck joints).

[~ Toa Of Shadows ~]

So do you guys think that the Toa Kaita will make a return? Will you MOC them if they don't?

And has anyone made a decent MOC of Akamai or Wairuha from the 08 Toa Nuva?

I hope they will return, probably LEGO will say " Wairuha and Akamaii are gone 'cause they are too complicated."

But yeah, I hope so.

[believe victims]

They're not really that complicated. It's just "three Toa make a bigger Toa", which isn't all that complicated if there's only 6 Toa who form 2 Kaita (and it can leave room for fandom creativity as to what the remaining 18 are, which unfortunately original Bionicle never saw). idk they might cut it for that reason? But I don't think it's likely they'd cut it for simplicity's sake, but likely more for reasons like difficulty designing combiners that meet LEGO's design standards (though they've made some real stinkers so I doubt that) or just not having a time or a place for them, or even that Toa Kaita stopped being relevant in the original Bionicle past 2002, so they could see it as something kids don't care about.

[Banana Gunz]

I think that Kaita would be great. They don't have to be canon or even named, but it would be some nice fan service. Plus the CCBS system is crazy ideal for combiners. They're not necessary/mandatory, but it's just so great when you do get them.

[Makaru]

I can verify personally that the CCBS torso is garbage to Kaita with.

[Pohatu: Uniter of Stone]

I can verify personally that the CCBS torso is garbage to Kaita with.

Challenge accepted. I will find a way!

[Aanchir]

I can verify personally that the CCBS torso is garbage to Kaita with.

I think it depends on how persnickety you are about them resembling the three-torso build of the classic Toa Kaita, and on the complexity of the sets you're working with. I can tell it would be a challenge, to be sure! But a lot of people assume the CCBS is rubbish for larger creations in general and I'm pretty confident that assumption has been proven wrong. For that matter, a lot of people assumed making Kaita from the 2008 Toa Nuva would be impossible, and my renditions of those are some of the only MOCs from back then that I'm actually still really pleased with. So I know it would be a mistake to back down from this challenge until I've given it the old college try.

[Makaru]

I'm not saying it's impossible. It's just been very difficult so far without the exact pieces.

[Banana Gunz]

I'm not saying it's impossible. It's just been very difficult so far without the exact pieces.

 

Creativity is key.

 

... though I do agree that the torso beams aren't very optimal for combiners. But it can still be done. I always wanted a two part torso, one for the upper body and one for the waist to allow extra pose ability and such. A two part torso would be better for combiners, or at least I think.

[Lyichir]

I'm not saying it's impossible. It's just been very difficult so far without the exact pieces.

Up until recently we didn't have the incredible new gearbox pieces. I spent today sketching some ideas for how to do Kaita with the new Toa, and they've been key to allowing larger builds to work with the given torsos. They allow you to reposition the shoulders for a taller, wider build and are great for attaching armor and beams in general .

[Aanchir]

Another thing I don't think people have considered — couldn't the concept of Kaita/fusions come back without the number of sets that go into them remaining the same?

 

It's an honest question. Traditionally, the Toa Kaita were two giant heroes made from three Toa each... but really, there's no reason three giant heroes made from two Toa each would be inherently less poetic. While the Toa Kaita traditionally represented the values of valor and wisdom, there's no reason why you couldn't change the values they represent, just as Lewa's element has been changed from Air to Jungle.

 

Fusions made from two Toa each would allow you to give each two gearboxes: one for the arms and one for the legs. This option would also allow you to balance the sizes better than you could if each was a fusion of three, since by doing them in pairs, each could be a fusion of one $15 Toa and one $20 Toa.

 

The biggest disadvantage is that three two-Toa fusions might feel more repetitive in design than two three-Toa fusions. Also, designing two fusions that complement each other is easier than designing three that complement each other (since two can represent a clear dichotomy, like the masculine/feminine dichotomy I mentioned earlier with Akamai Nuva and Wairuha Nuva).

[believe victims]

Another disadvantage would be that one gearbox for the arms and one for the legs can result in one of two body shapes: an almost perfect hourglass, or a rectangle with armor. I tested out a kicking hips function in LDD with a barebones stand-in for the gearbox and even the minimum hip width needs pretty wide shoulders (or a pretty tall torso) to balance it out, in addition to being difficult to attach to a torso in standard orientation.

Edited October 17, 2014 by Lucina

[Wazdakka]

I'd definitely love to see Kaita in the Nuvaverse.  

[fishers64]

I can verify personally that the CCBS torso is garbage to Kaita with.

Er, I'm not sure how the original kaita were built, but I can verify that CCBS torsos connect well using long and short ball sockets and Technic pins. I think a solution can be reached.   

 

Although attaching three CCBS torsos end to end could be too wide for figure's legs to support itself.

 

But a lot of people assume the CCBS is rubbish for larger creations in general and I'm pretty confident that assumption has been proven wrong.

I'll agree with this. Basically I haven't had the time to really do this project, but I'm pretty sure that CCBS torsos and double sockets can easily make modular 3D structures with have a considerable amount of connection points. That could be the basis for a huge model, and just using a few of them could make a medium size one.

 

Different issue here with kaita though. Easiest solution is to attach the three torsos in a row using short doubles or Technic, but that probably wouldn't be true to the orginal. 

[believe victims]

That, and none of the Toa have short double sockets. Double sockets were the first thing I thought of, but the problem is the Toa simply don't have them. It's not only an issue of the torso part itself being large and unwieldy; the other pieces the Toa have don't appear to be the best for the task.

[The 1st Shadow]

I'd be all for seeing Kaita return. It would depend on the execution of the model, though. Still, even if there isn't an official form, I'll definitely be one of those that attempts to construct their own.

[Nidhiki of the Shadows]

Lol, posts #3-#6 are comedy gold.

 

Regardless, I'd love to have Toa Kaita back! Akamai and Wairuha are awesome concepts in Bionicle and I wish they were explored more frequently. I was disappointed the 08 Toa didn't have Kaita but could understand cause of the current building format. However, as Aanchir and his brother just proved, it's about challenging those limitations and rising above them, and from that comes an awesome product.

 

Yes, CCBS might be difficult to work with in terms of these new Toa for large-scale combiners. But that doesn't mean it can't happen. I'd love to see the guys responsible for combiners back at LEGO really challenge themselves and reintroduce Akamai and Wairuha. 

 

-NotS

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

blaaar, CCBS torsos are indeed gaaaaaaaaaarbage to combo-model with, too many protruding ball-joints everywhere!

 

i mean, doesn't stop me from thinking up ways this might work, 'cause i could totally see this working.

 

but Lord Of Skull Spiders, i swear it'd be a horror for the person assigned to it.

[fishers64]

That, and none of the Toa have short double sockets. Double sockets were the first thing I thought of, but the problem is the Toa simply don't have them. It's not only an issue of the torso part itself being large and unwieldy; the other pieces the Toa have don't appear to be the best for the task.

Yeah, double sockets and short double sockets seem to be the hardest-to-find-in-set CCBS parts. I ordered 5 doubles off Pick-A-Brick back when they had them - best decision I ever made, but I should have bought 10. 

 

The only other thing I can think of is to use Technic spacers so the ball joints don't collide and connect them using that. Real clunky, though. 

[Toa Smoke Monster]

Storywise, unless they have a really good reason for it to return, I would rather that Toa not have the ability to form Kaita this time around. Even though I do like the idea of it, I don't want the Toa to have this ability but never use it in the story except for one or two occasions. Maybe if the story team makes some changes to the concept of it, I would change my mind. Like for example, the Toa can only form Kaita at certain times on the island. Or maybe have be extremely drained of their energies when turn back into their individual selfs. Changes like this would help balance the Kaita fusions, and make them more reasonable to have in the story IMO.

 

Set-wise, I can see how it would be hard to build them with the 2015 Toa. But as others have said, it isn't impossible. I'm sure someone will find a way to build one or both Kaita out of the Toa Okoto sets and made them look good.

[Aanchir]

blaaar, CCBS torsos are indeed gaaaaaaaaaarbage to combo-model with, too many protruding ball-joints everywhere!

 

i mean, doesn't stop me from thinking up ways this might work, 'cause i could totally see this working.

 

but Lord Of Skull Spiders, i swear it'd be a horror for the person assigned to it.

All things considered, you can choose to see the number of ball joints as a limitation, or you can see it as an opportunity. At its core, a ball joint is just a connection point like any other.

 

Here's what I've got for Wairuha so far. It's about 33 modules tall (roughly two inches taller than Kopaka). Obviously I'm going to want to work on filling in the sides and back of the torso, and it's hard to think about weapons until either the sets are out or their parts are on LDD, but I think this at least demonstrates that a Toa Kaita made from the new sets would be possible.

 

EDIT: And I just worked a bit on refining my brother's concept for Akamai. Here it is. In this concept, Akamai is just slightly taller than Wairuha (roughly two inches taller than Tahu). I'll be able to work more on filling out the back, sides, and shoulders once I have the physical sets to fiddle around with, and I want to beef up the feet some, but again, this shows that it's definitely possible to build imposing Toa Kaita with the new sets.

Edited October 18, 2014 by Aanchir

[The Undertaken]

 

blaaar, CCBS torsos are indeed gaaaaaaaaaarbage to combo-model with, too many protruding ball-joints everywhere!

 

i mean, doesn't stop me from thinking up ways this might work, 'cause i could totally see this working.

 

but Lord Of Skull Spiders, i swear it'd be a horror for the person assigned to it.

All things considered, you can choose to see the number of ball joints as a limitation, or you can see it as an opportunity. At its core, a ball joint is just a connection point like any other.

 

Here's what I've got for Wairuha so far. It's about 33 modules tall (roughly two inches taller than Kopaka). Obviously I'm going to want to work on filling in the sides and back of the torso, and it's hard to think about weapons until either the sets are out or their parts are on LDD, but I think this at least demonstrates that a Toa Kaita made from the new sets would be possible.

 

EDIT: And I just worked a bit on refining my brother's concept for Akamai. Here it is. In this concept, Akamai is just slightly taller than Wairuha (roughly two inches taller than Tahu). I'll be able to work more on filling out the back, sides, and shoulders once I have the physical sets to fiddle around with, and I want to beef up the feet some, but again, this shows that it's definitely possible to build imposing Toa Kaita with the new sets.

 

Wow, that came out really well!

[Toa Chuck]

Ok, I think we can all agree that they could more or less make fair Kaita out of the sets.

My issue with Kaita is that they are established to be stronger one on one than the three constituent Toa.

This seemed a huge plot hole to me in Bionicle gen 1. They used the Kaita against the Manas, and were unable to use them against the Makuta, due to Makuta's aura of chaos and anti-unity. I can accept this.

Why, however, they didn't use the Kaita against the Bahrag or Rahkshi is beyond me, and in later years, there are plenty of opportunities for Kaita to be really useful, but they simply have vanished.

 

The issue with Kaita is that they are a Deus un Machina. It's interesting once, but when you fail to use it later, it makes no sense. And if you DO use it regularly later on, it becomes boring and predictable.

Just leave the Kaita out this time. It makes things much simpler.

[ALVIS]

I hated the way Kaita were handled after 2001. The introduction of Bohrok Kaita and Rahkshi Kaita contributed nothing to the story and only swelled the ranks of potential Kaita to an absurd amount. Ideally, only the Toa Mata would have been capable of forming Kaita; that would keep the numbers at a manageable level.

 

However, since the Masters are the only Toa we've seen so far in this universe, I would not at all be averse to seeing Akamai and Wairuha make a reappearance, so long as they are accompanied by the same aura of mystery and mysticism as they were in 2001.

[Aanchir]

Ok, I think we can all agree that they could more or less make fair Kaita out of the sets.

My issue with Kaita is that they are established to be stronger one on one than the three constituent Toa.

This seemed a huge plot hole to me in Bionicle gen 1. They used the Kaita against the Manas, and were unable to use them against the Makuta, due to Makuta's aura of chaos and anti-unity. I can accept this.

Why, however, they didn't use the Kaita against the Bahrag or Rahkshi is beyond me, and in later years, there are plenty of opportunities for Kaita to be really useful, but they simply have vanished.

 

The issue with Kaita is that they are a Deus un Machina. It's interesting once, but when you fail to use it later, it makes no sense. And if you DO use it regularly later on, it becomes boring and predictable.

Just leave the Kaita out this time. It makes things much simpler.

Well, they could always use the Toa Kaita in the story again without their later absence feeling so inexplicable if they create stricter conditions for when the Toa can become Kaita. Like, they need to have a certain magical artifact to form them, or they can only form Kaita in a specific place, or something like that.

 

I hated the way Kaita were handled after 2001. The introduction of Bohrok Kaita and Rahkshi Kaita contributed nothing to the story and only swelled the ranks of potential Kaita to an absurd amount. Ideally, only the Toa Mata would have been capable of forming Kaita; that would keep the numbers at a manageable level.

 

However, since the Masters are the only Toa we've seen so far in this universe, I would not at all be averse to seeing Akamai and Wairuha make a reappearance, so long as they are accompanied by the same aura of mystery and mysticism as they were in 2001.

I agree that Kaita got a little bit more awkward later on. The original Toa Kaita (and by extension, the Toa Nuva Kaita) were probably some of the best as far as story was concerned because they had really strong identities. Not only did they have distinctive names and character traits, but like the Toa, they represented concepts greater than themselves. Even the Matoran Kaita and Matoran/Turaga Nui didn't have that going for them.

 

On the plus side, later Kaita models showed more diversity in their design than the original Toa Kaita. But on the other hand, this variety sometimes made them make less sense as fusions, particularly in the case of Rahkshi Kaita Vo (which, rather than a single entity, was a small Rahkshi rider atop a larger "steed"). So I like that after 2003 the designers stopped trying to explain so many combi models as "fusions" and instead started writing them story roles that suited their unique designs, like they had already been doing with a lot of the Rahi alternate/combi models or LEGO Club combi models

Edited October 18, 2014 by Aanchir

[Blastcage]

I don't wanna see them overused, but I don't wanna see them underused either like in G1.

[bioniclepluslotr]

 

 

My brother and I built Toa Kaita of the '08 Toa Nuva. Here's Akamai and here's Wairuha. We also have instructions for both of them here and here. Obviously they're far from perfect, but given the parts we had to work with I still think we did a decent job!

 

Anyway, I'm eager to try my hand at building Toa Kaita from the new Toa, almost so eager that I DON'T want there to be official ones. It'll be an amazing challenge, but given how awesomely versatile the new sets' parts are I think the potential is there!

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Aanchir AGAIN!

The terminology is Kapura'd.

 

Lol Kapura'd at saying Kapura'd

what's it even mean?

[fishers64]

 

 

My brother and I built Toa Kaita of the '08 Toa Nuva. Here's Akamai and here's Wairuha. We also have instructions for both of them here and here. Obviously they're far from perfect, but given the parts we had to work with I still think we did a decent job!

 

Anyway, I'm eager to try my hand at building Toa Kaita from the new Toa, almost so eager that I DON'T want there to be official ones. It'll be an amazing challenge, but given how awesomely versatile the new sets' parts are I think the potential is there!

 

EDIT: Ninja'd by Aanchir AGAIN!

The terminology is Kapura'd.

 

Lol Kapura'd at saying Kapura'd

what's it even mean?

 

It's a reference to Kapura's super-speed. Someone slipped past you and posted the answer faster than you. 

 

So, Kapura'd. 

[toajomo]

Ok, I think we can all agree that they could more or less make fair Kaita out of the sets.

My issue with Kaita is that they are established to be stronger one on one than the three constituent Toa.

This seemed a huge plot hole to me in Bionicle gen 1. They used the Kaita against the Manas, and were unable to use them against the Makuta, due to Makuta's aura of chaos and anti-unity. I can accept this.

Why, however, they didn't use the Kaita against the Bahrag or Rahkshi is beyond me, and in later years, there are plenty of opportunities for Kaita to be really useful, but they simply have vanished.

 

The issue with Kaita is that they are a Deus un Machina. It's interesting once, but when you fail to use it later, it makes no sense. And if you DO use it regularly later on, it becomes boring and predictable.

Just leave the Kaita out this time. It makes things much simpler.

I noticed the issues with the Toa Kaita when reading the books/comics. Perhaps there could be limitations..? Like they need a mask of fusion or a magical artifact that would make them unite.

Or maybe it takes a tremendous amount of energy, like a nova blast, and needs time to recharge.