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Bionifight Infinite Discussion


Edelgard

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Nocton would.

 

 

Xaeraz would take her up on the offer. He prefers to not fight if possible, so doing things outside the arena is something he figures is preferable.

 

 

 

The Queen will be looking for 2-3 fighters to aid her in a little quest once the first round is completed aside from Albrecht (if he agrees) and Von Worten; are there any takers? I can have the Queen contact your fighters once they're eliminated/the round ends.

I offer Lytrel.

 

 

That'll be the three, then. If Albrecht ends up refusing, I'll look for an additional crew member or two, since a team of at least six will be preferable for this particular mission.

 

Your characters (should they survive) will probably be rewarded with a couple of lives apiece. 

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Kotak.

 

Stoic and reliable.

 

                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                           The Unofficial Guide to TBRPG Combat!

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I'm guessing you're out of room.

 

But hey, my perpetual entity of boredom is always up for stuff to relieve his boredom. 

 

The team is full for the time being, yes. =P

 

I'm sure there will be other such quests in the future, however. 

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On the subject of Hound's speed, I have three points against it.

 

The first is that the ability to move 'far faster than the eye can perceive' is something that can only, I imagine, occur once a Kakama user has built up speed. I'm no expert on physics, but I'm fairly certain that bodies tend to accelerate, rather than instantly achieving a certain speed.

 

The second is the concept of accelerating an attack with the Kakama (or Kakama-level speed); it just doesn't work. At the speed the accelerated body would be moving (especially were it such a speed as would allow that body to vanish from sight), sudden contact with another, not accelerated body would be devastating, likely killing both parties instantly.

 

The third is from the same page you cite to support Hound's ability: "When using the Kakama, details and features around the user blur and fade from view."

 

What's more, besides all of these reasons why someone cannot employ such speed in a combat setting, there is the overarching reason that it is massively OP.

 

*Snaps fingers*

 

Just so that I don't sound like a stubborn, asinine bozo who has no interest in discussing it, I'd like to preface my response with the warning that I'll probably take a long time between responses, due to general business. I'd also like to say that looking back at the post I can absolutely see how you would consider it OP, and that I'm glad the discussion takes place here, so that people can a: contradict me when I get anything wrong (which you can expect to happen often), and b: help clear up my rusty memory of the Bionicle universe.

 

Anywho, a point-by-point analysis and response:

 

You're right that bodies almost always accelerate instead of spontaneously gaining a fixed velocity; that's a fact that can be proven by empirical science. However, I'm not exactly sure you'll want to apply real physics to the Bionicle universe (assuming you're not going to just apply a rule of realism to a certain part of it, such as Kanohi). Toa can generate matter in direct exchange with a personal energy, which would pose all sorts of problems and elaborations if considered from the stance of Physics; similarly, considering how almost any power in a universe governed by the same physical laws of our own is highly problematic. Kanohi seem to apply their effects pretty much instantly, and, unless I'm missing something (hint: probably am), it seems that Pohatu used his Kakama to travel absolutely farcical distances(and do other things with insane speed) from a standstill, or something similar to it, which poses numerous problems that were entirely unanswered. Answering this question depends on two things; does a Kakama increase its user's speed directly, or does it create an effect of acceleration and momentum gathering? Either way, it seems from the mask's uses by Pohatu and others that regardless of the answer to that question, the effect is delivered instantly (similarly to a Kadin, which instantly launches its user into the high-speed, if memory serves).

 

Once again, you're absolutely right (I've discussed this, and seen this discussed, numerous times, and your verdict is almost always unanimously reached for a realistic universe); moving at the speeds of a Kakama would kill a human, and almost certainly a Toa as well, regardless of what they're doing. It would matter if they were making contact with the ground or with another being; using a Kakama in any fashion should be horribly mutilating, if not lethal. Running hundreds of miles per hour would produce so much friction that horrible things would happen to the limb that is in contact with the ground, regardless of its construction or material, but Bionicle characters just ignored that. It just wouldn't work; but, due to the fact that the Bionicle universe operates under the ever-dubious Rule of Cool, it did, even allowing Pohatu to exceed the sound barrier with no ill effects (or even a sonic boom, if I remember correctly). This raises a problem; if we are going to apply real, naturalistic physics to Bionicle powers, there's going to be a lot of coincidental death and maiming we didn't see as kids. Also, I did a quick search for Kakama uses on BS01, and found a few examples that I thought would help illustrate my point. First: "He had tried everything he could think of, from swinging trees into her, blasting Midak light spheres at her, throwing boulders, and super-speed blows using his Kanohi Kakama Nuva and Photok's super-speed ability." This is a quote from the Saga Guides/Karda Nui page, and it describes Pohatu Nuva using his Kakama Nuva to, among other things, deal "super-speed blows". He's using an even faster version of the mask, so I thought it would illustrate well that there is a precedent for engaging in contact with objects while using the mask.

 

I was working under the assumption that the targeting pauses Hound displayed, combined with Kanohi-level Senses (which, while not completely removing the problem of the blurring and general obnubilation, would lessen it and allow his other senses to partially compensate) would highly lessen or mostly negate the downsides, especially since he only recently moved at full (and assumedly most blurring) speed.

 

To add to Mustang's points, I'll point out that trying to move at ludicrous speeds while on rough, rocky terrain that also happens to be covered in slippery ice and claggy snow is a surefire route to a fall and a faceplant. And you really don't want to faceplant at superspeed...

 

This raises a really good question; assuming that a Kakama user does not get any special reflex enhancements or anything else of that sort, how in the world (barring all of the other problems) do they not instantly kill themselves? Pohatu's (I've discussed several times, but it's the only usage example I can get even a partial description of) supersonic journey should have resulted in him cracking his skull into a thousand pieces after hitting his foot into a rock (it was from Po-Wahi to Ko-Wahi, afterall) he couldn't see due to the blurring, (and couldn't react to due to no heightened reflexes) and then falling on his face at the speed of several hundred miles per hour. The fact that he did similar feats of travel fairly often suggests to me that there was some sort of safety mechanic attached to the Mask's use, otherwise he should have been dead shortly after his first attempt at usage (once again, I have none of the relevant books or memories, so I could be missing something obvious).

 

Also, I wrote this post at a very extreme speed (If the grammatical mistakes and typos weren't indicators enough), so apologies if it misses something obvious or otherwise makes my imbecility appear greater than normal.

EDIT: Apparently I can't paragraph anything, so had to fix that.

Edited by L'Etranger

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Any profiles to approve that I've missed?

 

After all, I do not care about fighting.

 

I only care about winning.

Can't win if you don't fight. ;)

I revised Achilex's sword to only damage metal and burn organics.

 Kopaka, the coolest(Pun intended) Ko-Toa ever:

 Comic_Blizzard_Blade_In_Use.png      

"If the fight had turned, Exann might be the one on the floor with Antidermis spurting out of him. This is how battle is. This is how life is." -Mar'jik, Corpus Rahkshi                                       

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 Kopaka, the coolest(Pun intended) Ko-Toa ever:

 Comic_Blizzard_Blade_In_Use.png      

"If the fight had turned, Exann might be the one on the floor with Antidermis spurting out of him. This is how battle is. This is how life is." -Mar'jik, Corpus Rahkshi                                       

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She sent the blow while you were still coming up the hill. 

 

Plus..... she's not doing it out of a fighting spirit. 

 

So..... Wait until we get a Sidonas post and we'll move from there.

 

                                                                                                                                                       

                                                                                           The Unofficial Guide to TBRPG Combat!

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In reguards to my last Kale post. Think of the blast like a multi-colored flashbang, only without the bang and only directed at Iskane and Prose. Lasted a split second long and mostly just going to make you blink and see stars, lots of stars.

"I serve the weak. I serve the helpless. I am their sword and their shield. If you want to strike at them, you must go through me, and I am not so easily moved."

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That's me out.

IC that son.

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                                                                                           The Unofficial Guide to TBRPG Combat!

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What happens if my fighter has 0 KO's and is, like, the third last fighter to be in the arena still alive?

 

I would assume that they would try to eliminate the final two players to be the last one standing.

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Will there be an announcement or something when the round is almost over, or does the fight continue until there's just one? I ask because IIRC, FFA includes victory conditions if more than one person survives.

All are not the same


But three shall be as one


Freedom in the flame


The end has just begun

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Will there be an announcement or something when the round is almost over, or does the fight continue until there's just one? I ask because IIRC, FFA includes victory conditions if more than one person survives.

This round goes until the Saturday indicated (Next one I think?), and if everyone is not KO'd by then, then whoever has the most KO's wins.

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Steam name: Ehksidian

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Oh hey talking about Hound, cool, I can join in on this.

 

Regarding the speed and everything, yeah it's patently unrealistic that he should move that quickly and suffer no ill effects, but alas, such is bionicle. Not slipping and falling because things got really icy - or tripping because snow build up - that makes sense too, although I'd imagine it should have a bit of effect, with how much of both there are, and how you fall through snow a lot easier than you fall through sand. Still, it's not that big of an issue.

 

Using Kakama speed to make it so your attacks have more punch due to the obvious velocity? That's a little bit of an issue, because that's not really how it was ever used in the story. Used to deliver more attacks in a given time space, sure. Increasing the power of those attacks? nah bruh get a pakari for that

 

but hound isn't doing that anyways sooooo

 

As for the faster than the eye can see stuff like that - if he was legitimately moving so fast that he couldn't be registered by the brain, that'd be so ridiculously fast it isn't funny. Fast enough that he's just a big blur that you see moving but you don't actually see details of his movement much? That makes more sense, and I'm fairly certain that's how Darkon is doing that. If not, well, there's an obvious problem, but I've never known Darkon to write in such an overpowered manner that it isn't even remotely comedic. So he's still visible in that way, and you can still react to him.

 

As for the sensory issues, and the reaction time, and stuff like that. The Kakama doesn't need to grant much extra reaction time - most obstacles that will be problems will be visible before you reach them, if you're travelling at a maximum speed that makes sense, so you'll be okay. Granting enough reaction time that you can zoom over, land a well placed attack and avoid an attempt to dodge and zoom right back out, that doesn't make sense. If Hound wasn't just going right on past without any care as to whether or not he did connect, but instead was zooming around and ignoring attempts to dodge and saying "i'm moving too fast for you to get out of my way trolol" then yeah there'd be a problem, but Darkon isn't doing that, Darkon wouldn't do that. Darkon plays too realistically for that. And, considering that Hound is just a blur moving at full speed, other people around him would be the same way - detail and specific features would be gone, but general shapes and colours would be around still. So Hound would be able to discern the shapes of his enemies the way they can discern his shape, although very specific details would likely be lost on him, and, again, the issue of reaction time is a thing; he can't reasonably be expected to have reaction time on par with how he is normally when he's actually running at that high speed. So while he can send an attack at a vague blur, the person being attacked can avoid the vague blur coming towards them if they notice it in time and then there's no harm no foul.

 

All in all, Darkon isn't acting all that terribly OP. There's obviously the possibility that he could take it too far, and I imagine he's being careful not to do so; especially with a character like Hound, it'd be really easy. As it is, though, things are still good, in my opinion. And I say that as the guy who was attacked and had to deal with it. =P

profiles i guess

i'm a south american giant otter now

 

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@Kal: After your elaboration, it would seem I was a bit hasty to call OP. I must, however, address your thoughts on my second point; while Hound wasn't explicitly strengthening his attacks with his speed, accelerating your attacks so as to throw more punches in a specific time would mean more speed, that is to say, a higher velocity, and a higher velocity inherently means more force behind each punch, no?

 

*Snaps fingers*

Avatar by Brickeens

 

 

 

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Otter's pretty much right; Hound's not going beyond the brain's level of comprehension at all (is there a fixed speed where this happens (my money's on googolplex miles per hour)? i feel like i should know this ;-; ), he's doing what I always interpreted (probably with depressingly low levels of accuracy) the Kakama-user doing in combat; moving with such speed that the user gains the advantage, in that their opponents have a harder time accurately locating and reacting to them. I used "faster than the eye can see" because I said in the post that he went full power and that, according to the one line of text on BS01, is what a Kakama does at full power. The only thing in Otter's post that I disagree with or find confusing is the idea that "he can't reasonably be expected to have reaction time on par with how he is normally when he's actually running at that high speed", because that still leaves the problem of how he, and every other Kakama user ever, react to minor things (rocks, roots, etcetera) that would otherwise kill them every time they try to superspeed.

 

As to the matter of power-per-superspeed-punch; seeing how Hound also has Pakari-strength when activated, the velocity-force increase would probably be negligible in comparison.

 

also don't you "I say that as the guy who was attacked" me, mister

 

we got it on record that is not the case

 

( pls don't edit ;-; )

Edited by L'Etranger

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This raises a really good question; assuming that a Kakama user does not get any special reflex enhancements or anything else of that sort, how in the world (barring all of the other problems) do they not instantly kill themselves? Pohatu's (I've discussed several times, but it's the only usage example I can get even a partial description of) supersonic journey should have resulted in him cracking his skull into a thousand pieces after hitting his foot into a rock (it was from Po-Wahi to Ko-Wahi, afterall) he couldn't see due to the blurring, (and couldn't react to due to no heightened reflexes) and then falling on his face at the speed of several hundred miles per hour. The fact that he did similar feats of travel fairly often suggests to me that there was some sort of safety mechanic attached to the Mask's use, otherwise he should have been dead shortly after his first attempt at usage (once again, I have none of the relevant books or memories, so I could be missing something obvious).

 

While I do believe there are clearly some mysterious Bionicle-y forces at work, and that there is undoubtedly some enhanced reflexes involved, the Kakama is not what I would call a precision tool. One occasion when Pohatu used his Nuva'd up version ended with Onua creating a ramp underneath him and sending him flying. If he's got reflexes that perfectly match his new speed, why didn't he just stop? Or change direction?

And Hound has it worse. He can't try to avoid the snow. Its everywhere. He's a car on ice with no snow tires thats just boosted itself with nitro. I'm not saying he couldn't pull off his moves, I'm just saying the terrain is going to make it really difficult for him

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If you look at it in the story, the ability to increase speed regarding battle is only so you can throw more punches. The increased velocity had no effect, there were just more punches thrown in a given period of time; kind of another example of how Bionicle physics =/= real life physics all the time. Sure, everything is moving faster, but generally that doesn't mean an increase in force imparted simply because, well, Greg said so with his writing, and that's primarily what we should take into account.

 

As for the reaction time, let's think about it like this: You're in a metal box with wheels, moving far faster than humans were ever meant to move. Even just running at your highest speed naturally possible, your reaction time doesn't always completely cut it; it's going to be similar in the car. However, in the car, your outside speed-enhancing aid, there are features in place meant to prevent going over a rock or something like that from messing you up ridiculously badly, where it could easily trip you while you were running. With a lot of familiarity with the vehicle you'll develop a better reaction time, but as it is, you'll never be up to par where your reaction time when walking/jogging is proportionally equivalent to your reaction time when moving at highway speeds. You rely on the car itself to prevent small things from causing you a problem, and big things, like people, large rocks, saguaro cacti, pets, and the odd mythical monster are up to you to correct your course to avoid or stop before hitting them, and you'll generally see them with more than enough time to take care of them. It stands to reason that the Kakama might grant a slight increase in reaction time and then become more easily usable over time, but primarily I'd imagine it just accounts for the small but still slightly dangerous objects by managing to cause you to subconsciously alter your stride in such a way that you go right over them or something.

profiles i guess

i'm a south american giant otter now

 

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While I do believe there are clearly some mysterious Bionicle-y forces at work, and that there is undoubtedly some enhanced reflexes involved, the Kakama is not what I would call a precision tool. One occasion when Pohatu used his Nuva'd up version ended with Onua creating a ramp underneath him and sending him flying. If he's got reflexes that perfectly match his new speed, why didn't he just stop? Or change direction?

 

And Hound has it worse. He can't try to avoid the snow. Its everywhere. He's a car on ice with no snow tires thats just boosted itself with nitro. I'm not saying he couldn't pull off his moves, I'm just saying the terrain is going to make it really difficult for him

 

 

I don't really have much to contribute to this argument, but I just want to point out something about the part I bolded: Pohatu's not stopping, I think, would have far more to do with momentum than reflexes. No matter excellent his reflexes, he couldn't simply stop; he might be able to slow down, but he couldn't stop. Inertia simply wouldn't let him.

 

That said... I believe that the Kakama improves the reflexes just enough that the user can move at high speeds without tripping over or bumping into every little thing. It would really be possible to use otherwise. I don't think it is the equivalent to Max Payne's bullet time. Basically, when running really fast, he's not more likely to trip and fall (though it is still possible; we humans can trip while walking slowly), but he's also not going to be pulling any Calix feats simply because he can move faster than normal.

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My epic: For Them (Review Topic)

 

BZPRPG: Trauer and Faora

 

Bionifight Ultimate: Daedalus Drachoren and Von Worten Undtränen

 

The Elder Scrolls: Ashfall: K'Larn

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IC: Xara - Arena.

 

Karz.... I stumbled back away from the searing flames, losing my footing and tumbling several bio further down the slope before I managed to dig one of my sword into the snow to anchor myself in place. I pointed my other blade at the beast and fired a crackling lightning bolt right towards the dragon's open maw.

 

OOC: Fighting A.D. 

 

IC (A.D.): A.D. saw Xara fall, and bent his neck to dodge the electricity. This required using muscles in his belly that had been hit...ow, ow, ow. Turning, the dragon sunk one of his claws into the icey slope, tearing it loose and hurling it at the Rahkshi. 

 

OOC: Fighting Xara. 

 

GM IC: ELITTRA - MT. IHU

 

The wave washed over her feet without dealing any damage; after a second, Elittra followed after Xira, although at a slower pace. It would not do to be ambushed by charging blindly into a battle. 

 

There was a whoosh overhead as a dragon soared past; kneeling down, Elittra took careful aim with her bow and fired off another lightning arrow, this time aiming for the dragon's left wing. If it all worked out, the dragon would not see the attack coming.

 

OOC: Attacking A.D.

 

E: Forgot to add in reaction to the wave.

OOC: A.D. has already gotten past you as of that IC post and is back to fighting Xara, so not sure what to do with it. 

 

IC (Ismekne): Annoyed that her attack didn't work as intended, the fighter grumbled something about Karzahni being a fun place to live before aiming a blast of water at Artorre. He looked like he was asking for it. 

 

OOC: Attacking Artorre.

 

 

It's a dragon flying in the air around a mountaintop... I think firing an arrow at him is still a viable option, even if he's going to dodge it. :P

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That comic was incredibly interesting; it seems that someone using a Kakama is entirely unable to stop or control their momentum. My main source of confusion is why Pohatu, capable of (and possessing the time to) voicing his surprise, didn't begin to move backwards, or at least stop running; does the Kakama, or perhaps the Kakama Nuva, just generate momentum, and don't imbue the user with a complete movement speed upgrade? If so, that wouldn't make sense at all for the concept of Denuians (regret at not stating Pakari and Calix INTENSIFIES).

 

As for the car analogy... I'm not sure that's the best analogy, at least not in most ways; a car's way of dealing with obstacles that trip up a human, as Bloody Nine mostly said, is either A: go over them (yay wheels) or B: violent crash. A humanoid being should be able to see both large and (most of the) little things and react to them in different ways according to the context. My understanding of the Kakama, which is now very confused, was that it simply increased the speed of a humanoid being in several ways; specifically speed to move, speed to react, speed to perceive, because having just the first one and not the other two makes almost all locomotion nearly impossible (If you're running at insane speeds but everything seems like a Turner painting and you can't respond to your environment, you're going to fall on your face and kill yourself). A car, on the other hand, doesn't have any reactions at all; its momentum and movement and all of that is a conscious decision brought about by a human pilot (who wouldn't just keep driving off of a ramp, but would at least try to brake, and, unless powered by a jet engine, probably slow their movement enough). As for a nitro-boosted car with no snow tires: I feel the same distinction applies. Tires create a very simple, singular momentum that has less direct stopping power, whereas a human running through snow has the ability to finely control their steps and generated momentum, and in general have greater control (well this analogy has gotten out of hand, hasn't it). It seems pretty clear now that I was wrong, but I still don't understand how in the world a Kakama user stays alive at all.

 

I'm not sure what "improving reflexes just enough" fully entails. If your reflexes are improved enough to compensate for super-speed, certainly they're then super-reflexes?

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As for the car analogy... I'm not sure that's the best analogy, at least not in most ways; a car's way of dealing with obstacles that trip up a human, as Bloody Nine mostly said, is either A: go over them (yay wheels) or B: violent crash.

 

Yeah was sort of implying it was option B that was going to happen there. Hound is trying to move at great speeds on ice, which is going to give him no grip and increase the likelihood of him falling even if he was moving at regular speeds (if the last week or so of having streets covered in ice and nearly breaking my arm in a fall just trying to get to the shops is any indication the ability to finely control my steps and generated momentum is of no help whatsoever :P)

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