Poll: Gender Ratios

[fishers64]

Alright, since you all will not be quiet about this, here be a poll to try to nail down some stuff. 

 

Some of the poll options in this one may be controversial. The options are included in order to provide a fair representation of all member's opinions, and do not represent my personal views. 

 

If you disagree with a particular poll option, don't vote for it. Do not insult, deride, or otherwise flame the people that did. 

 

I've also heard about the majority-in-tribes thing - I've tried to include that by the 2:1 and 3:1 WITHIN EACH TRIBE options. Feedback on this poll is welcomed, as it may be slightly (or extravagantly) flawed. 

 

Finally, please stay on topic. Thanks. 

[N.S.M.8]

I think the tribes should have been almost mono-gendered (for example: most, but not all, Ta-Matoran would be male), but I am opposed to ret-coning anything gender related.

I voted Yes to should the tribes be dual gendered, 1:1 overall gender ratio, 3:1 or more for the per tribe ratio, but STRONG NO to changing any male elements to female.

[JMSOG]

First question: strong yes. Second question: 1:1 overall and transgender representation. Final question: Strong yes.

Having the elements be representative of both genders, and having the ratio be OVERALL as opposed to element to element, seems like the best way to satisfy both sides of the debate. We get the equality we've been fighting for, and the main characters don't have to switch gender. We even can still explain away why we've seen so many male or female characters of a particular element, because, for example, maybe there's more male air characters than female characters.

Voted for the transgender option due to personal beliefs...as a realist, i understand canonizing something along those lines would be beyond what Lego may allow. I won't push that one.

Strong yes on the final question because, if we end up leaving the elements gender locked, that's the fallback.


Look...We know why there are so many characters in Bionicle that are male. Initially, Bionicle was marketed exclusivly to boys, and an all male cast is historicly how toy companies handle that. However, in 2015, just looking at the BZP community, we know better than that: Bionicle isn't a toyline for boys, or storyline for boys, it's for everyone. therefore, it should REPRESENT everyone. There's no excuse in 2015 for this wonderful, living/breathing story should be male dominant.

[Dorek]

Should the second one have been multi-choice? I accidentally selected two incompatible ones.

 

Anyway, I voted "No", "1:1", and "Strong No". More balance between the elements would have been nice overall, but changing that now is pretty pointless.

[Jobber]

All the G1 characters should be female.

[Lyichir]

For the first question, I voted "strong yes". The gender-locking of elements was a hugely problematic part of the original story.

 

For the second question, I voted "Other response/ratio". It's not that I don't have a preference—I would rather have closer to an even 1:1 ratio if possible—but I don't think of it as a numbers game. A particular Toa team or group of villagers shouldn't need to shoot for a perfectly even ratio—some groups could have more females than males, and vice-versa for others. And I don't think changing the gender of legacy characters like the six original Toa is the answer. Rather, I think that they should strongly consider making new additions to the cast female, so as to continue bringing that ratio ever closer to that perfect balance.

 

For the third question, I voted "no". Generally, I'm not interested in trying to pretty up the corpse of the classic story. It is what it is at this point. Trying to force new female characters into the canon, even when they'll never have a chance to appear in the actual canon media, seems beyond pointless to me, and I think accepting that the classic story was deeply flawed in some ways is a healthier perspective than the idea that it can somehow be improved long after its end. The only reason I didn't vote "strong no" is that I could care less what's done with the story at this point—if postmortem retcons are able to make fans who do care happier, who am I to try and argue that they're in the wrong?

Edited May 28, 2015 by Lyichir

[CarumEsSarene]

I always had this headcanon that certain characters were assumed male or female to fit the majority of their village (Kotu, Tomaru, Onepu, Koparu, Kopeke)

[believe victims]

Strong yes, all the 1:1 ratios, and i don't actually have any kind of opinion on the last one so I just voted yes because most of the people who vote, like, "Strong No" will take every vote yes as a personal attack and that's hilarious.

[Ghidora131]

Strong yes, 2:1 in each tribe, and no. The majority of Male characters will be better because that's what the theme is targeted towards, but don't drop the Females like they're already doing.

 

And no, I think all the powers should be open for both genders. Works perfectly fine in BZPRPG.

[fishers64]

Should the second one have been multi-choice? I accidentally selected two incompatible ones.

Yes, because of the fact that a person could have wanted different proportions in each tribe, overall, and in the main characters respectively. That and the other options under 2 aren't mutually exclusive. 

 

In an ideal world, I would have one question for the tribes, one for the overall, one for the main characters, one for transgender, but BZP only allows three, so I worked with what I had. 

[N.S.M.8]

Strong yes, all the 1:1 ratios, and i don't actually have any kind of opinion on the last one so I just voted yes because most of the people who vote, like, "Strong No" will take every vote yes as a personal attack and that's hilarious.

I voted "strong no" to the last one and didn't take any of the "yes" votes as personal attacks (I even made one of them for the first question).  I've always believed that the whole point of discussing things is to listen to differing opinions, which is something that cannot be done if everything is taken personally.  

 

That being said, you just stereotyped me (and everyone with my opinion) as immature creatures incapable of facing the (in my opinion, beautiful) reality that people will not always agree, simply because we hold a different opinion than you do. THAT I do take as a personal attack.

[believe victims]

you just stereotyped me (and everyone with my opinion)

 

most of the people

 

someone with good reading comprehension who'd taken notice of how these discussions have gone in the past would notice not only the bolded words in my post, but also that i was referring to the way discussions of that particular subject have gone in the past, with a sizable chunk of people, yes, taking the idea that changing the gender of an element would be a personal attack against them.

 

If you're new to the discussions and didn't realize the way they usually go, then I'm sorry for this somewhat rude response, but honestly, my post wasn't making a "stereotype" out of nowhere; it was alluding to a very real phenomenon.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Dina Saruyama

[GSR]

If you disagree with a particular poll option, don't vote for it. Do not insult, deride, or otherwise flame the people that did. 

 

Finally, please stay on topic. Thanks.

It's in the very first post, people.

[Toa Smoke Monster]

1. I voted yes. I would definitely like tribes to have both male and female members, regardless of their elements.

 

2. I don't have a gender ratio preference. I would like to see more female characters in the story though. 

 

3. I voted yes, but I wouldn't lose sleep if it didn't happen. I'd rather look forward to the Gen 2 story and hope that its future story, if it introduced characters with other elements, would rectify this.

[Archon~]

Man, this is gonna go up in flames like a pile of sawdust.

Anyway, yes, 1:1 and yes.

 

I do think that most elements should be divided male/female equally and have a 2:1 dominance of their respective main element.

[Regitnui]

I do think that most elements should be divided male/female equally and have a 2:1 dominance of their respective main element.

Pretty much. I've stated my opinion multiple times.

[Mjolnitor]

Strong yes,

1:1 within each element and (if setwise) 1:1-2:1 for the main cast,

yes as in "unlock what is locked".

[Sybre]

While I wouldn't exactly mind seeing more female characters if it happened, that doesn't change the fact that the gender ratio is incredibly unnecessary. Why do we care? It was never a huge part of the story. Bionicle was also a toy line and story for young boys, so I wasn't surprised even a bit when there wasn't as many female characters. Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

 

Now this brings me to the condition of G1. There are no more 10-year-old boys out there who care about G1, so we can go in and change stuff without a second thought, right? Wrong. Sure, there might be some young boys of the current generation who are actually aware of G1 and care about it, but that's not my point here. Think about what you're trying to do. Some of you people want to change parts of a story that is dead. The reason why is beyond me, but why do people insist on beating a dead horse? There's just no point. G1 is over; it's done. Changing anything about it would be like putting a hat on a skeleton. Sure, the hat's cool, but the wearer is beyond dead and you'd be better off giving the hat to someone who actually needs it and would use it. We have a fresh new generation already here, so there's a better opportunity that could possibly yield better results. Who knows? You never know unless you try. Give the hat to the one who would get a better use out of it.

 

Also, I did not come here to offend people or start a fight. This poll is built around opinions, so that's what I'm offering here. If I came across as offensive, I apologize; I certainly didn't mean to do it.

[Logan McOwen]

All I say is this; Leave G1 alone, focus on the future.

[Rahkshi Lalonde]

Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

 

this feels, no offense, like the same mindset that got us into this problem to begin with. :0

[Sybre]

 

 

Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

this feels, no offense, like the same mindset that got us into this problem to begin with. :0

That doesn't matter. We aren't the target audience. As much as we might hate it, that's the truth. Thus, this whole shenanigan shouldn't even exist. Bionicle is targeted toward young boys, who prefer buying male characters, and that's that. We can complain all we want; the truth won't change.

[CarumEsSarene]

 

 

 

Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

this feels, no offense, like the same mindset that got us into this problem to begin with. :0

That doesn't matter. We aren't the target audience. As much as we might hate it, that's the truth. Thus, this whole shenanigan shouldn't even exist. Bionicle is targeted toward young boys, who prefer buying male characters, and that's that. We can complain all we want; the truth won't change.

That's still stereotyping. A very common one at that. Young boys do love female characters and it actually gives a stronger attachment. That's why boys often end up playing with Barbie's or my little pony and saying their sister invited them. Female characters give boys a motherly attach that causes them to stick to the toys much easier. Otherwise the boys only play with the toys a little while then move to something else.

[N.S.M.8]

 

 

Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

this feels, no offense, like the same mindset that got us into this problem to begin with. :0

That doesn't matter. We aren't the target audience. As much as we might hate it, that's the truth. Thus, this whole shenanigan shouldn't even exist. Bionicle is targeted toward young boys, who prefer buying male characters, and that's that. We can complain all we want; the truth won't change.

 

The thing is, I'm not sure that "truth" is all that true.  Let's think about the nonsense that surrounded Legend of Korra's development.   

 

 

 

According to animation director Yoo Jae-myung, Nickelodeon was initially reluctant to approve the series and suspended production because, unlike in almost all American animated series, the protagonist was a girl.  Conventional wisdom, according to Konietzko, had it that "girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won't watch shows about girls". The creators eventually persuaded the channel's executives to change their mind. Konietzko related that in test screenings, boys said that Korra being a girl didn't matter to them: "They just said she was awesome."

It seems that the marketing executives of various companies are convinced that young boys won't watch a female protagonist, but test screenings of Korra and other shows seem to disagree.

[Sharnak the Bohrok Lord]

Strong no, 1:1 within tribes, strong no

 

I'm fine for equal gender ratios for G2, but I don't see the point in retconning G1. Although it's not liked, gender-locked tribes have been established since the beginning (or near it.) It's like saying Wookies aren't cannon in Star Wars anymore. And even if it did get retconned, what effect would it have? G1's story is over. 90% of the characters would still be male and no more characters are going to be introduced. The only way G1 is going to continue is through fanfiction and there you don't need to follow cannon. You are free to make as many changes to the story as you want.

 

Also, to make it clear, I am not against equal representation in BIONICLE. I don't see what making such an extensive retcon to G1 would accomplish when it would be more effective to incorporate these things in G2.

[Sybre]

 

 

 

Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

this feels, no offense, like the same mindset that got us into this problem to begin with. :0

That doesn't matter. We aren't the target audience. As much as we might hate it, that's the truth. Thus, this whole shenanigan shouldn't even exist. Bionicle is targeted toward young boys, who prefer buying male characters, and that's that. We can complain all we want; the truth won't change.

 

The thing is, I'm not sure that "truth" is all that true.  Let's think about the nonsense that surrounded Legend of Korra's development.   

 

 

 

According to animation director Yoo Jae-myung, Nickelodeon was initially reluctant to approve the series and suspended production because, unlike in almost all American animated series, the protagonist was a girl.  Conventional wisdom, according to Konietzko, had it that "girls will watch shows about boys, but boys won't watch shows about girls". The creators eventually persuaded the channel's executives to change their mind. Konietzko related that in test screenings, boys said that Korra being a girl didn't matter to them: "They just said she was awesome."

It seems that the marketing executives of various companies are convinced that young boys won't watch a female protagonist, but test screenings of Korra and other shows seem to disagree.

 

Okay, I'll admit that I made a mistake. I guess kids were different back when I was still young. However, I don't mean to argue, but there might be a chance that the boys who were at the test screening don't accurately represent the entire audience as a whole; every viewer has different opinions and such. I could be wrong, so correct me if I am.

[Lyichir]

 

 

 

Boys don't care for female characters as much as male characters, and since they're the target audience, they get what the majority of them prefers.

this feels, no offense, like the same mindset that got us into this problem to begin with. :0

 

That doesn't matter. We aren't the target audience. As much as we might hate it, that's the truth. Thus, this whole shenanigan shouldn't even exist. Bionicle is targeted toward young boys, who prefer buying male characters, and that's that. We can complain all we want; the truth won't change.

 

That's still stereotyping. A very common one at that. Young boys do love female characters and it actually gives a stronger attachment. That's why boys often end up playing with Barbie's or my little pony and saying their sister invited them. Female characters give boys a motherly attach that causes them to stick to the toys much easier. Otherwise the boys only play with the toys a little while then move to something else.

 

I wouldn't necessarily say that young boys universally have a stronger attachment to female characters [than they do to male characters], but your point is good. The idea that young boys won't buy female characters is a truism that has become self-fulfilling. Just as adults have fewer sexist biases than they used to on the whole, the same probably applies to kids—but at this point the idea that young boys won't buy female characters is so deeply ingrained in the toy industry's mindset that it's rare to see a toy that challenges that assumption.

 

Of course, on the whole, Bionicle would not stand to lose much by introducing more female characters. Even during the classic theme's heyday, there were a lot of buyers who didn't even know any characters were female in the first place. With robotic-looking characters like that, kids are extremely liable to come up with their own characterization—and since gender doesn't really affect the story outside of which pronouns are used for which characters, even kids who do follow the story probably won't mind another female character or two.

 

In any case, I don't expect a fully equal gender ratio for a long, long time. Lego generally tries to avoid controversy, and as such any changes to a longstanding theme like Bionicle are likely to be evolutionary, rather than revolutionary. But frankly, almost anything would be better than the current 1 to 5 ratio, and even baby steps are valuable so long as they consistently go in the right direction.

Edited May 28, 2015 by Lyichir