Krana + Rahi = ?

[Mjolnitor]

 

What I said about Kraata powers potentially not existing in 2001 is entirely relevant. Sets come before story. If the story team didn't think of Kraata and their powers until 2003, then there's no way Teridax could have used them in-story two years earlier.

Huh? Of course he could. The fact that the story team hadn't thought of Kraata at the time we saw the infected Rahi saga doesn't mean that in-story the Kraata didn't exist during that saga.

 

 

But it also doesn't mean that powers exhibited in 2001 are automatically kraata powers.

You can't explain something written in 2001 via concepts invented in 2003 until 2003.

 

 

 

By your logic the Kraata couldn't have infected the Kanohi in 2001 either, since the Kraata sets were only released in 2003.

 

Wrong. We already knew that the Kanohi were infected in 2001, we just didn't know how they were infected.

 

 

Your logic also makes the Metru Nui saga impossible, since the Turaga sets came before the Toa Metru sets therefore the Turaga couldn't have originally been the Toa Metru.

 

Also wrong, and also not Cheesy's logic. You stretch his logic from "you can't explain something with a concept until you have this concept" to "you can't write prequels".

 

Same goes for the Core War: the sets of all those warriors that fought there weren't released until 2009, so the Core War can't possibly have happened before the rest of the BIONICLE saga, even though we know it did.

 

See above.

[Thormen]

But it also doesn't mean that powers exhibited in 2001 are automatically kraata powers.

I never said that.

 

You can't explain something written in 2001 via concepts invented in 2003 until 2003.

I know you can't explain something with a concept until you have this concept, that's not what I'm saying at all. The Makuta had the power to create Kraata of Rahi Control during the Dark Time, that is a fact. It doesn't matter that the story team in real life only came up with this idea when they were planning 2003, the canonical fact is that the Makuta during the Dark Time had the power to create Kraata and to use the 42 Kraata powers.

 

It sounds like people think I don't know how 2001 went. I do know that, I was already a fan back then and I remember very well that there were Rahi wearing infected Kanohi and that there was no mention of Kraata, Rahkshi or their powers until two years later. But that doesn't change the fact that the Makuta had these powers in-story at the time the Toa were collecting their masks.

 

Wrong. We already knew that the Kanohi were infected in 2001, we just didn't know how they were infected.

Cheesy said "If the story team didn't think of Kraata and their powers until 2003, then there's no way Teridax could have used them in-story two years earlier.", which directly contradicts the fact that the Makuta did use Kraata during the 2001 saga to infect the Kraata. It doesn't matter that we weren't in real life informed of that until two years later, in-story the Makuta used the Kraata at that time, which proves he had the capability to use Kraata.

[bonesiii]

 

 

What's a great way to stop a foe from attacking? Fling a Krana at it. It prevents the attack and has one advantage over destroying the Rahi: it gives you a new ally. How likely is it that a Rahi attacks a Bohrok? Muaka have been known to eat Rahkshi, maybe they can eat Bohrok. Do they just like metallic meals in general?

I agree with most of the rest of this post (see below), but to this part, the Krana is the only organic part to eat, and if you're flinging it at certain Rahi like Muaka, with huge gaping mouths... yeah, see the issue?
 

 

we don't even know if a being needs to be able to wear a mask to wear a Krana.

That's why I pointed out that aliens (sapient, so you'd think stronger-minded than Rahi) wouldn't be expected to wear masks.

So IMO masks are probably irrelevant to Krana being able to control Rahi. What matters is they have minds (the ones we're talking about anyways). Unless of course the Krana design doesn't account for something in the Rahi design because Rahi were assumed to not become a problem here.
 
It would help them grip the Rahi, though, to have a faceslike spot. But masks are held on magnetically, not necessarily to something that a Krana can easily grip by normal means. Which actually brings up the question of how reliable their face-clamping is.

 

The fact that the story team hadn't thought of Kraata at the time we saw the infected Rahi saga doesn't mean that in-story the Kraata didn't exist during that saga.

No, but it needs to be kept in mind that what's in the story happened for out-of-story reasons too, not only in-story. As long as you do keep that mind, it's fine to think of alternate versions, just remember it isn't necessarily a good replacement for what was done unless it takes into account the other factors.

 

It sounds like people think I don't know how 2001 went.

I didn't get that impression. I thought it was clear you were speaking only in-story, but you were commenting on things that seem to have clearly been influenced a lot by some out-story factors. That has nothing to do with how much you do or don't know about 2001.

But by the same token, if it ended up not making sense it shouldn't be excused by virtue of out-of-story factors -- and notice the Greg answer that was posted doesn't do that; it brings up a reasonable in-story factor that makes it work.

(Sometimes they can't be salvaged, though, and Greg will have to point to the fact that people who can make mistakes made the story to promote a toy etc.)

Anyways, I always saw the Rahi Control power as an intentional allusion back to the infected masks, not something to be taken as competition with it. I think it was more about keeping the theme in the story without doing the same old same old specific method from year to year. Same basic reason 2006 did the infection theme in a different way, Krana could control minds too, Vahki had a version of it, etc.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

 

What I said about Kraata powers potentially not existing in 2001 is entirely relevant. Sets come before story. If the story team didn't think of Kraata and their powers until 2003, then there's no way Teridax could have used them in-story two years earlier.

Huh? Of course he could. The fact that the story team hadn't thought of Kraata at the time we saw the infected Rahi saga doesn't mean that in-story the Kraata didn't exist during that saga. We know there were Rahkshi around during the Metru Nui saga, which precedes the infected Rahi saga in-story, so we know that Kraata already existed during that time.

 

By your logic the Kraata couldn't have infected the Kanohi in 2001 either, since the Kraata sets were only released in 2003. But we know that the Kraata did infect those Kanohi since Whenua explicitly said so. Your logic also makes the Metru Nui saga impossible, since the Turaga sets came before the Toa Metru sets therefore the Turaga couldn't have originally been the Toa Metru. Same goes for the Core War: the sets of all those warriors that fought there weren't released until 2009, so the Core War can't possibly have happened before the rest of the BIONICLE saga, even though we know it did.

 

As for Rahi being designed to wear Krana and help with the cleansing, the Makuta didn't even know the purpose of the Bohrok until Mutran gained the knowledge of the universe from Tren Krom, which was a long time after the started making Rahi.

I'm not saying the Makuta consciously were creating Rahi so they could be controlled by Bohrok, I'm saying that that could be how the tradition of creating Rahi with Kanohi started. The Great Beings created the first Rahi, it's very well possible that the Makuta were working off those examples and created Rahi with Kanohi because that's how the Great Beings did it. Another possibility is that Mata Nui told them to do so, since he probably gave some instructions regarding their duty of creating Rahi.

 

Also I don't think they need to know the full purpose of the Bohrok to know that the Bohrok have Krana that can control Kanohi bearers. Vakama knew that as well, as did basically everyone on Metru Nui, and they definitely didn't know the true purpose of the Bohrok and the true nature of the Matoran Universe.

 

(And again: I don't think the Rahi were supposed to help with cleansing the Island of Mata Nui, I think they were supposed to just go back into the MU.)

 

 

You're taking what I said out of context. What I'm saying is this: the bottom line is that the reason Makuta didn't use Kraata of Rahi Control in 2001 is because the story team probably hadn't thought of them yet. If you're writing a story and don't think of something until two years after the story already began, you can't use that nonexistant idea two years earlier.

[CarumEsSarene]

For those thinking that the Kraata couldn't have been planned back in 2001, remember that the entire storyline from 2001-2008 was concepted back in 1999.

 

I always thought the masks were just a part of their body. Like in the same sense we use masks for body armour in our MOCs

[bonesiii]

For those thinking that the Kraata couldn't have been planned back in 2001

Speaking for myself at least, I never said that; I said we don't know that they were, but we do know mask infection was.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

The general outline was always planned years in advance. Kraata may not have been (but at the same time, they may have been). Story sometimes dictates set design, but is almost always dependent on set design.

 

Are Krana-Kal identical in the mind-control function as regular Krana? We never saw them doing it.

Edited June 8, 2015 by Cheesy Mac n Cheese

[Thormen]

You're taking what I said out of context. What I'm saying is this: the bottom line is that the reason Makuta didn't use Kraata of Rahi Control in 2001 is because the story team probably hadn't thought of them yet. If you're writing a story and don't think of something until two years after the story already began, you can't use that nonexistant idea two years earlier.

If that's your only point then I have to say again: irrelevant. I was arguing it doesn't make sense for the Makuta to add Kanohi to the Rahi just so they can control them if they already had the Kraata power to control them. It doesn't matter at all what year the story team introduced the Kraata powers, it's a canon fact that the Makuta had those powers. If that wasn't the context in which you were speaking when you posted what you posted, then you're the one who's taking what I said out of context.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

 

You're taking what I said out of context. What I'm saying is this: the bottom line is that the reason Makuta didn't use Kraata of Rahi Control in 2001 is because the story team probably hadn't thought of them yet. If you're writing a story and don't think of something until two years after the story already began, you can't use that nonexistant idea two years earlier.

If that's your only point then I have to say again: irrelevant. I was arguing it doesn't make sense for the Makuta to add Kanohi to the Rahi just so they can control them if they already had the Kraata power to control them. It doesn't matter at all what year the story team introduced the Kraata powers, it's a canon fact that the Makuta had those powers. If that wasn't the context in which you were speaking when you posted what you posted, then you're the one who's taking what I said out of context.

 

 

Again, it's completely relevant. If the story team hadn't invented Rahi Control power in 2001, they couldn't have implemented it in 2001.  Therefore, characters wouldn't have used it. It's like asking why the Tahtorak didn't show up in 2001 story: because its creator Justin Lamb didn't win the Rahi buildingcontest yet. It doesn't matter if it makes more sense than Infected Masks.

 

Again, I am not claiming to know that Rahi Control Kraata hadn't been thought of in 2001. It's just that its just as likely that they hadn't than if they had.

[Thormen]

Again, it's completely relevant. If the story team hadn't invented Rahi Control power in 2001, they couldn't have implemented it in 2001.  Therefore, characters wouldn't have used it. It's like asking why the Tahtorak didn't show up in 2001 story: because its creator Justin Lamb didn't win the Rahi buildingcontest yet. It doesn't matter if it makes more sense than Infected Masks.

 

Again, I am not claiming to know that Rahi Control Kraata hadn't been thought of in 2001. It's just that its just as likely that they hadn't than if they had.

You're missing the point. Just forget about 2001, you agree with me that during the time when Makuta were creating Rahi about 90 000 years ago, they had the Kraata power of Rahi Control, right? So how does it make sense for them to create another method for them to control Rahi (the Rahi's Kanohi masks that they could infect).

[The 1st Shadow]

 

You're taking what I said out of context. What I'm saying is this: the bottom line is that the reason Makuta didn't use Kraata of Rahi Control in 2001 is because the story team probably hadn't thought of them yet. If you're writing a story and don't think of something until two years after the story already began, you can't use that nonexistant idea two years earlier.

If that's your only point then I have to say again: irrelevant. I was arguing it doesn't make sense for the Makuta to add Kanohi to the Rahi just so they can control them if they already had the Kraata power to control them. It doesn't matter at all what year the story team introduced the Kraata powers, it's a canon fact that the Makuta had those powers. If that wasn't the context in which you were speaking when you posted what you posted, then you're the one who's taking what I said out of context.

 

Thormen, Cheesy's right. 

 

Let's look at the options, shall we?

 

Use Kraata of Rahi Control--kraata involves using up antidermis (a.k.a. the Makuta's body) and having each one focus its power on a specific rahi. Also, this requires that the kraata/Rahkshi be in the vicinity of the creature, in order to direct its actions.

 

Use a few kraata to infect thousands of masks-- uses up very little antidermis and allows the Makuta to inflict their will on a subject over a much greater distance. Allows the Makuta to give some basic guidance without actually being present.

 

Simple, you see.

[FallenCor]

So how does it make sense for them to create another method for them to control Rahi (the Rahi's Kanohi masks that they could infect).

If we're simply looking for an in-story explanation, perhaps it was just a fail-safe in case the first method stopped working for whatever reason. (I mean how embarrassing would it be if your minion just stopped attacking the hero and went about its biz right in the middle of a fight?) The-1st-Shadow's idea is also a possibility. Plus, why follow your minion around when you can just sit back and watch from your lair?

[Regitnui]

Or the Kanohi on Rahi are there for aesthetic reasons, act as batteries like they do for matoran, or provide some advantage to the Rahi (Nui-Rama's translucent Ruru's that protect the real eyes). The Kanohi aren't necessarily for control, but they can be controlled via the Kanohi.

[Thormen]

Thormen, Cheesy's right.

No he isn't, he's saying a completely irrelevant point is relevant.

 

Let's look at the options, shall we?

 

Use Kraata of Rahi Control--kraata involves using up antidermis (a.k.a. the Makuta's body) and having each one focus its power on a specific rahi. Also, this requires that the kraata/Rahkshi be in the vicinity of the creature, in order to direct its actions.

 

Use a few kraata to infect thousands of masks-- uses up very little antidermis and allows the Makuta to inflict their will on a subject over a much greater distance. Allows the Makuta to give some basic guidance without actually being present.

 

Simple, you see.

I covered all of that before. Kraata were clearly very expendable for the Makuta, otherwise he would've outfitted them with Rahkshi armor instead of letting the vast majority of them get caught by the Turaga. In the case of the 2001 storyline only 12 Rahkshi of Rahi Control at stage 6 would be needed at all, that's nothing for the Makuta and certainly a lot less than the amount of Kraata he actually had slithering around the Island of Mata Nui, meaning he would in fact use up less Antidermis than he did in the canon story. And on top of that, without my theory we still have no reasonable answer as to why Krana can take over other beings.

 

If we're simply looking for an in-story explanation, perhaps it was just a fail-safe in case the first method stopped working for whatever reason. (I mean how embarrassing would it be if your minion just stopped attacking the hero and went about its biz right in the middle of a fight?)

That's possible, but how likely is it that their Kraata power would stop working? It's not like they were using a machine to control the Rahi and the machine could break down, it's an actual power belonging to the Makuta themselves. The infected Kanohi method is actually the one that's prone to breaking: the Kanohi can be removed or purified, which nullifies the Makuta's control over the Rahi. (In fact what you said about the Rahi stopping its attack and going about its biz is what canonically happened in 2001 every time the Rahi's masks got knocked off )

 

Plus, why follow your minion around when you can just sit back and watch from your lair?

You don't have to follow him around if you can have your Kraata follow him around.

 

Edit:

Or the Kanohi on Rahi are there for aesthetic reasons, act as batteries like they do for matoran, or provide some advantage to the Rahi (Nui-Rama's translucent Ruru's that protect the real eyes). The Kanohi aren't necessarily for control, but they can be controlled via the Kanohi.

That's a third possibility indeed, and I find that a lot more likely than the idea that the Makuta added Kanohi to control the Rahi. What it has going for it particularly is that it explains why there are so many Rahi without Kanohi.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Thormen

[The 1st Shadow]

And on top of that, without my theory we still have no reasonable answer as to why Krana can take over other beings.

Um... What? I've read through this whole topic and this has been answered like 4 times already.

 

 

Plus, why follow your minion around when you can just sit back and watch from your lair?

You don't have to follow him around if you can have your Kraata follow him around.

 

He was talking about the kraata. There's no need for that.

 

EDIT: Oh, and while I'm on it--

In the case of the 2001 storyline only 12 Rahkshi of Rahi Control at stage 6 would be needed at all, that's nothing for the Makuta and certainly a lot less than the amount of Kraata he actually had slithering around the Island of Mata Nui, meaning he would in fact use up less Antidermis than he did in the canon story. 

 

Only 12? Really? You know there were 30 Great masks and 30 Noble masks scattered around the island, right? 

 

Oh, you mean the sets! You are aware that there were actually thousands of infected rahi on the island, and not just two of each, right?

 

You might wanna actually read the 2001 storyline to make sure you've got your facts right

Edited June 9, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[Thormen]

Um... What? I've read through this whole topic and this has been answered like 4 times already.

I've also read the entire topic and I haven't seen any reasonable answer, but you're free to point at one if you see one.

 

He was talking about the kraata. There's no need for that.

What do you mean? The Makuta doesn't have to follow his Kraata around... And the Kraata themselves can use their Rahi minions for transport (the Kraata Variations page specifically says that about stage 4 Kraata of Rahi Control).

 

Only 12? Really? You know there were 30 Great masks and 30 Noble masks scattered around the island, right?

 

Oh, you mean the sets! You are aware that there were actually thousands of infected rahi on the island, and not just two of each, right?

 

You might wanna actually read the 2001 storyline to make sure you've got your facts right

No I wasn't talking about sets, I mean only 12 Kraata were needed in-story: one for each Koro and one for each Toa. There's no need to have your Rahi hang out near a mask if none of the Toa is in the neighborhood to try and collect it. The Rahi only ever needed to harrass the vicinity of the six Koro and the six Toa, except during the siege of Kini Nui, when all Rahi amassed there. There was never any need for more than 12 Kraata of Rahi Control.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Um... What? I've read through this whole topic and this has been answered like 4 times already.

I've also read the entire topic and I haven't seen any reasonable answer, but you're free to point at one if you see one.

 

He was talking about the kraata. There's no need for that.

What do you mean? The Makuta doesn't have to follow his Kraata around... And the Kraata themselves can use their Rahi minions for transport (the Kraata Variations page specifically says that about stage 4 Kraata of Rahi Control).

 

Only 12? Really? You know there were 30 Great masks and 30 Noble masks scattered around the island, right?

 

Oh, you mean the sets! You are aware that there were actually thousands of infected rahi on the island, and not just two of each, right?

 

You might wanna actually read the 2001 storyline to make sure you've got your facts right

No I wasn't talking about sets, I mean only 12 Kraata were needed in-story: one for each Koro and one for each Toa. There's no need to have your Rahi hang out near a mask if none of the Toa is in the neighborhood to try and collect it. The Rahi only ever needed to harrass the vicinity of the six Koro and the six Toa, except during the siege of Kini Nui, when all Rahi amassed there. There was never any need for more than 12 Kraata of Rahi Control.

 

He was talking about the kraata following the rahi around. Must I clarify everything out of context?

 

Alright, fair point on the kraata focusing on the village. However, you're forgetting one tiny detail: Kraata are small slugs. All the Matoran would have had to do was locate said tiny lump of antidermis and squish it. Suddenly, the rahi become much more docile. Or, you know, you could just infect the giant, monstrous rahi themselves, making it much harder for the Matoran to defend against.

 

And a kraata following a Toa around? Right, like Tahu wouldn't have barbecued it the moment he discovered it. 

 

No need for more than 12? Try again.

 

EDIT: Plus, all it took was six Turaga to locate and capture hundreds of kraata. 12 should have been a breeze.

Edited June 9, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[FallenCor]

 

If we're simply looking for an in-story explanation, perhaps it was just a fail-safe in case the first method stopped working for whatever reason. (I mean how embarrassing would it be if your minion just stopped attacking the hero and went about its biz right in the middle of a fight?)

That's possible, but how likely is it that their Kraata power would stop working? It's not like they were using a machine to control the Rahi and the machine could break down, it's an actual power belonging to the Makuta themselves. The infected Kanohi method is actually the one that's prone to breaking: the Kanohi can be removed or purified, which nullifies the Makuta's control over the Rahi. (In fact what you said about the Rahi stopping its attack and going about its biz is what canonically happened in 2001 every time the Rahi's masks got knocked off )

Something could break the Makuta's (or kraata's) concentration, or another party/structure/object could block this power. Both methods of control could equally serve as backups. If the one controlling the rahi decided he wanted to be nearby when using his kraata power, the infected masks are probably shut off or whatever, set to kick in if there's a hiccup in the use of the former. Conversely, he could decide to use the masks for a time -- which of course are at risk of being knocked loose until he or a kraata arrives at the scene -- and replace them when necessary. I'm pretty sure there were a couple hundred rahi (maybe more) that Teridax infected, and being that they were barely more than canon-fodder to him, I doubt he cared about making sure they remained under his command. After all, he set this all up years before the coming of the Toa Mata, and their arrival kinda bungled the whole thing. The infected rahi were meant to act as guard dogs against a handful of frightened Matoran, not go head-to-head with a team of Toa. It was a temporary solution to buy him more time.

 

As for the original topic, I both can and can't see Bohrok using krana on rahi. They could use them to force the rahi to help them eliminate the island, buuuut they could just as easily scare them off to get them out of the way. The problem with the latter is that it would mean driving the rahi into the ocean. Assuming the Bahrag care, maybe they could slap some krana on them and send them somewhere safe?   (It'd be A LOT easier than herding them.)

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

The whole point is I'm looking at it from a real-world perspective. If the story team hadn't thought of Rahi Control in 2003, no one could have used it in 2001 story. The 2001 sets were also very heavily focused on mask collecting, so the story reflected on this by having Rahi wear infected masks, through which Makuta controlled them. So don't tell me I'm wrong.

 

I think I'll ask Greg just to clear this up. Both why Teridax didn't use Kraata of Rahi Control instead of infected masks and why Rahi wear masks in the first place.

 

And, as has been stated several times, this discussion has nothing to do with the actual topic, and hasn't for days.

[Thormen]

He was talking about the kraata following the rahi around. Must I clarify everything out of context?

 

Alright, fair point on the kraata focusing on the village. However, you're forgetting one tiny detail: Kraata are small slugs. All the Matoran would have had to do was locate said tiny lump of antidermis and squish it. Suddenly, the rahi become much more docile. Or, you know, you could just infect the giant, monstrous rahi themselves, making it much harder for the Matoran to defend against.

 

And a kraata following a Toa around? Right, like Tahu wouldn't have barbecued it the moment he discovered it. 

 

No need for more than 12? Try again.

 

EDIT: Plus, all it took was six Turaga to locate and capture hundreds of kraata. 12 should have been a breeze.

 

If the Makuta was worried about losing his Kraata, he should've made Rahkshi armor for them. The fact that he didn't and just let the Turaga capture them shows us how expendable these Kraata really are. And the higher level Kraata I am talking about would've had a large Rahi protect them if they were discovered, even a stage 4 Kraata knows to latch onto a Rahi and drive it into a rage when in danger. Whoever is skilled enough to squish the Kraata at that moment should have no problem knocking off infected Kanohi, so what I am talking about should actually be harder to defend against by Matoran and Toa.

 

But I'll humor you: let's say the Makuta didn't create just 12 Kraata (6 per Koro and 6 per Toa), but in addition to those 12 he created 30 to guard every great mask and 30 to guard every noble mask, making the total 72. He added 28 more Kraata just to have spares, cause you can never be sure, making it an even 100. Then he created Rahkshi armor for all of them, which requires an additional 100 Kraata, making the total number of Kraata he created 200, just to be completely covered on the Island of Mata Nui (having a much more solid control than he actually had in 2001). If he created that many Kraata, he'd still have created significantly less Kraata than the thousands that the Turaga managed to capture according to Whenua, so it really wouldn't be as difficult as you guys think it would be.

 

Something could break the Makuta's (or kraata's) concentration, or another party/structure/object could block this power. Both methods of control could equally serve as backups. If the one controlling the rahi decided he wanted to be nearby when using his kraata power, the infected masks are probably shut off or whatever, set to kick in if there's a hiccup in the use of the former. Conversely, he could decide to use the masks for a time -- which of course are at risk of being knocked loose until he or a kraata arrives at the scene -- and replace them when necessary. I'm pretty sure there were a couple hundred rahi (maybe more) that Teridax infected, and being that they were barely more than canon-fodder to him, I doubt he cared about making sure they remained under his command. After all, he set this all up years before the coming of the Toa Mata, and their arrival kinda bungled the whole thing. The infected rahi were meant to act as guard dogs against a handful of frightened Matoran, not go head-to-head with a team of Toa. It was a temporary solution to buy him more time.

Yeah he probably mixed the methods a little bit in actual canon, but I was arguing that it's a stretch to argue that the Makuta would've specifically gone out of their way to give the Rahi Kanohi masks so that they could control them later on if they already had the power to control them in the first place. What you said about concentration makes sense, but we don't know the Rahi Control power requires more concentration than the infected Kanohi do. When Greg was asked why the Makuta used infected Kanohi instead of Kraata powers, he said their range was greater, he didn't mention anything about concentration.

 

As for the original topic, I both can and can't see Bohrok using krana on rahi. They could use them to force the rahi to help them eliminate the island, buuuut they could just as easily scare them off to get them out of the way. The problem with the latter is that it would mean driving the rahi into the ocean. Assuming the Bahrag care, maybe they could slap some krana on them and send them somewhere safe?   (It'd be A LOT easier than herding them.)

Yeah that's what I'm thinking: the Krana could be used to herd the Rahi peacefully back into the Matoran Universe, and that's probably why they made them able to latch onto 'Kanohi slots' in the first place.

 

The whole point is I'm looking at it from a real-world perspective. If the story team hadn't thought of Rahi Control in 2003, no one could have used it in 2001 story. The 2001 sets were also very heavily focused on mask collecting, so the story reflected on this by having Rahi wear infected masks, through which Makuta controlled them. So don't tell me I'm wrong.

 

I think I'll ask Greg just to clear this up. Both why Teridax didn't use Kraata of Rahi Control instead of infected masks and why Rahi wear masks in the first place.

 

And, as has been stated several times, this discussion has nothing to do with the actual topic, and hasn't for days.

The discussion you're having doesn't have anything to do with the original topic, but it's apparently not the same discussion as the one I'm having. I'm saying the Krana-on-face feature was probably created by the Great Beings to do exactly what the OP is suggesting. What year which set was introduced has nothing to do with that.

 

If you're gonna ask Greg for clarification, then be sure to present all the arguments from every side in this topic to give him a full picture of what the context is, that way he can make a better decision.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

He was talking about the kraata following the rahi around. Must I clarify everything out of context?

 

Alright, fair point on the kraata focusing on the village. However, you're forgetting one tiny detail: Kraata are small slugs. All the Matoran would have had to do was locate said tiny lump of antidermis and squish it. Suddenly, the rahi become much more docile. Or, you know, you could just infect the giant, monstrous rahi themselves, making it much harder for the Matoran to defend against.

 

And a kraata following a Toa around? Right, like Tahu wouldn't have barbecued it the moment he discovered it. 

 

No need for more than 12? Try again.

 

EDIT: Plus, all it took was six Turaga to locate and capture hundreds of kraata. 12 should have been a breeze.

 

If the Makuta was worried about losing his Kraata, he should've made Rahkshi armor for them. The fact that he didn't and just let the Turaga capture them shows us how expendable these Kraata really are. And the higher level Kraata I am talking about would've had a large Rahi protect them if they were discovered, even a stage 4 Kraata knows to latch onto a Rahi and drive it into a rage when in danger. Whoever is skilled enough to squish the Kraata at that moment should have no problem knocking off infected Kanohi, so what I am talking about should actually be harder to defend against by Matoran and Toa.

 

But I'll humor you: let's say the Makuta didn't create just 12 Kraata (6 per Koro and 6 per Toa), but in addition to those 12 he created 30 to guard every great mask and 30 to guard every noble mask, making the total 72. He added 28 more Kraata just to have spares, cause you can never be sure, making it an even 100. Then he created Rahkshi armor for all of them, which requires an additional 100 Kraata, making the total number of Kraata he created 200, just to be completely covered on the Island of Mata Nui (having a much more solid control than he actually had in 2001). If he created that many Kraata, he'd still have created significantly less Kraata than the thousands that the Turaga managed to capture according to Whenua, so it really wouldn't be as difficult as you guys think it would be.

 

 

You do realize that Teridax is/was easily the smartest being in the MU? You speak as though he didn't know what he was doing.

 

He wanted the Matoran to eventually return to Metru Nui, so he wouldn't make it impossible for them to do so. He would know that the Turaga and Matoran knew of the masks the Rahi wore, and so just infecting those makes it less conspicuous that something is out of place with them. Tall, reptilian suits of armor might have hinted at something. Plus, the power you're focusing on is Rahi Control. Find a way to separate the Rahkshi from any dangerous Rahi, and it's powerless against the Matoran.

 

End result: Infecting the masks was a much more effective way to do what he did.

[Thormen]

You do realize that Teridax is/was easily the smartest being in the MU? You speak as though he didn't know what he was doing.

How do you get that from what I said? I know he knew what he was doing, he had been planning it for tens of thousands of years. All I'm arguing is that it doesn't make sense for the Brotherhood of the Makuta to go out of their way to create Kanohi on the Rahi specifically so they could control them, if they already had a way of controlling them. You're arguing that it's so much easier for them with the infected masks, but I'm showing you why it isn't. It's only marginally easier at best, both ways have their pros and cons. It's as if he had two cars, and they are both equally useful. If he needed to drive somewhere, he could use either car, doesn't really matter which. But what I'm asking is: why did he bother to buy that second car? He already had the first one, why would he need two?

 

He wanted the Matoran to eventually return to Metru Nui, so he wouldn't make it impossible for them to do so.

I didn't say he'd make it impossible for the Matoran to return to Metru Nui... How did you get that out of what I said?

 

He would know that the Turaga and Matoran knew of the masks the Rahi wore, and so just infecting those makes it less conspicuous that something is out of place with them. Tall, reptilian suits of armor might have hinted at something.

What's out of place about a Makuta using his Rahi Control power or creating Rahkshi of Rahi Control?

 

Plus, the power you're focusing on is Rahi Control. Find a way to separate the Rahkshi from any dangerous Rahi, and it's powerless against the Matoran.

 

End result: Infecting the masks was a much more effective way to do what he did.

Find a way to separate an infected mask from a dangerous Rahi and it's powerless against the Matoran. In the example you mention the Makuta could've easily given the Rahkshi another Rahkshi bodyguard (of a different type). That again doubles the number of Kraata in my example, but we're still nowhere near the actual number of Kraata seen in 2003.

[The 1st Shadow]

But what I'm asking is: why did he bother to buy that second car? He already had the first one, why would he need two?

I'm gonna stop you right here.

 

The Makuta were not always beings of gaseous antidermis. They were biomechanical at one point. The creation of kraata was much more difficult and more strenuous on the Makuta before they evolved. Why put yourself through all that when you can just make a way to control the Rahi without hurting yourself? Sure, while Teridax was terrorizing the Matoran on Mata Nui, this wouldn't have been a problem, since he was already antidermis. But when the Makuta first started out, they weren't like that, and so they would have used the easiest option--masks.

 

Clear?

[FallenCor]

What you said about concentration makes sense, but we don't know the Rahi Control power requires more concentration than the infected Kanohi do. When Greg was asked why the Makuta used infected Kanohi instead of Kraata powers, he said their range was greater, he didn't mention anything about concentration.

We also have to consider the fact that Teridax had just come from a battle with Icarax -- one in which he deliberately allowed Icarax to beat the tar out of him. Teridax didn't even fully recover until a year later, apparently (which was the start of the MoL adventure). During that year, he needed a way to keep the Matoran in check while he recuperated, and I'm pretty sure he didn't want to babysit his minions the whole time. Using infected masks was a good hands-off solution. Perhaps the masks had an "autopilot" feature, plus an open connection so that Teridax could "tune in" whenever he needed. It's also possible that he was in no condition to be creating kraata, which would mean he'd have to be there in person to use that power himself -- not a good idea for an ailing villain. In that case, I can see why he went with the infected masks.

 

I'm starting to wonder if Teridax was the only one to use the infected kanohi method. If he was, then that still don't tell us why the rahi have masks at all. If he isn't, then maybe the Makuta have fail-safes for all or most of their powers.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

I'm starting to wonder if Teridax was the only one to use the infected kanohi method. If he was, then that still don't tell us why the rahi have masks at all. If he isn't, then maybe the Makuta have fail-safes for all or most of their powers.

 

That gives me an idea...

 

Going off of my point from earlier:

 

The Makuta were not always beings of gaseous antidermis. They were biomechanical at one point. The creation of kraata was much more difficult and more strenuous on the Makuta before they evolved. Why put yourself through all that when you can just make a way to control the Rahi without hurting yourself? Sure, while Teridax was terrorizing the Matoran on Mata Nui, this wouldn't have been a problem, since he was already antidermis. But when the Makuta first started out, they weren't like that, and so they would have used the easiest option--masks.

 

We know that some rahi have slots for Kanohi (Muaka, Nui-Jaga), while others don't (Kikanalo, Lohrak). What if there's more of a reason to this?

 

In the beginning, the Makuta would have had a tough time with creating kraata, as I said, so they may have gone with the masked Rahi feature then, to provide them with a means to control large quantities of creatures from a distance. Later, though, when they evolved, and kraata-creation was made easier, they could have left out the Kanohi option in favor of mass-producing the kraata and Rahkshi.

 

See? 

 

Few kraata=Lots of masked beasts

Lot's of kraata=few masked beasts

 

This opens up another topic: timeline for when Rahi were produced. This would suggest that the Rahi we saw in 2001/02/03-era were made before the Makuta evolved, and any other sets we got were of creatures produced after the evolution to antidermis, when Rahkshi of Rahi Control would have been easier to produce. 

 

Plausible?

[Thormen]

The Makuta were not always beings of gaseous antidermis. They were biomechanical at one point. The creation of kraata was much more difficult and more strenuous on the Makuta before they evolved. Why put yourself through all that when you can just make a way to control the Rahi without hurting yourself? Sure, while Teridax was terrorizing the Matoran on Mata Nui, this wouldn't have been a problem, since he was already antidermis. But when the Makuta first started out, they weren't like that, and so they would have used the easiest option--masks.

That's a good point, I hadn't thought of it. That makes it a lot more difficult to compare the two methods since we now have less indication of the expendability of the Kraata. It applies to both methods actually: it wouldn't just be more difficult to create Kraata/Rahkshi of Rahi Control, but it would also be more difficult to create Kraata to infect a lot of Kanohi, meaning the Makuta would probably have to get their own hands dirty. The only mention of Rahkshi before the evolution appears to be the war between the Makuta and the Barraki and an outburst by Miserix while he was being deposed. The Mutran Chronicles don't seem to give any indication as to how big the Rahkshi armies were that they amassed at that time, so it's difficult to tell whether that would be more difficult than infecting tons of mask by yourself (or with the help of a couple of Kraata, but not the thousands we saw in 2003).

 

So I can see a pre-evolution Makuta deciding to add Kanohi to the Rahi just so he could have an extra way to control them. That just leaves the question of whether the Makuta were the ones to decide it in the first place, since the Great Beings already created Rahi before the Makuta were there. One of them is apparently a "creature that resembles a Tarakava in size and shape, only with multiple flippers and the ability to fire Ice beams from its eyes", which seems to imply that it was wearing a Kanohi (since Tarakava do). The other First Rahi are however described so vaguely that we can't possibly guess if they wore Kanohi or not, so we can't draw that many conclusions based on that either.

 

So I'm gonna say that even though it's likely the Krana's ability to latch onto faces was created to repatriate any wandering Rahi, there are multiple possible reasons for why the Rahi were given Kanohi.

 

Edit: Woops, missed both of your posts.

 

We also have to consider the fact that Teridax had just come from a battle with Icarax -- one in which he deliberately allowed Icarax to beat the tar out of him. Teridax didn't even fully recover until a year later, apparently (which was the start of the MoL adventure). During that year, he needed a way to keep the Matoran in check while he recuperated, and I'm pretty sure he didn't want to babysit his minions the whole time. Using infected masks was a good hands-off solution. Perhaps the masks had an "autopilot" feature, plus an open connection so that Teridax could "tune in" whenever he needed. It's also possible that he was in no condition to be creating kraata, which would mean he'd have to be there in person to use that power himself -- not a good idea for an ailing villain. In that case, I can see why he went with the infected masks.

OK, but doesn't that actually give him an incentive to use his Kraata of Rahi Control? We don't know whether the infected masks have the kind of autopilot you're talking about, but the Kraata definitely do: the Kraata themselves. At the higher stages these are intelligent enough, and at the lower stages they aren't controlled directly by the Makuta anyway.

 

And I was always under the impression that the Makuta didn't just start his infected Rahi assault right before the Toa Mata arrived, but that he was infecting and controlling Rahi throughout the entire Dark Time.

 

That gives me an idea...

 

Going off of my point from earlier:

The Makuta were not always beings of gaseous antidermis. They were biomechanical at one point. The creation of kraata was much more difficult and more strenuous on the Makuta before they evolved. Why put yourself through all that when you can just make a way to control the Rahi without hurting yourself? Sure, while Teridax was terrorizing the Matoran on Mata Nui, this wouldn't have been a problem, since he was already antidermis. But when the Makuta first started out, they weren't like that, and so they would have used the easiest option--masks.

We know that some rahi have slots for Kanohi (Muaka, Nui-Jaga), while others don't (Kikanalo, Lohrak). What if there's more of a reason to this?

 

In the beginning, the Makuta would have had a tough time with creating kraata, as I said, so they may have gone with the masked Rahi feature then, to provide them with a means to control large quantities of creatures from a distance. Later, though, when they evolved, and kraata-creation was made easier, they could have left out the Kanohi option in favor of mass-producing the kraata and Rahkshi.

 

See?

 

Few kraata=Lots of masked beasts

Lot's of kraata=few masked beasts

 

This opens up another topic: timeline for when Rahi were produced. This would suggest that the Rahi we saw in 2001/02/03-era were made before the Makuta evolved, and any other sets we got were of creatures produced after the evolution to antidermis, when Rahkshi of Rahi Control would have been easier to produce.

 

Plausible?

 

It's a good theory, but I must still add the caveat that what I said at the start of this post applies here as well: it's easier to use the infected masks if you have lots of Kraata, because then you can infect lots of masks.

 

I myself was thinking that the Makuta sometimes didn't feel like keeping to the tradition of creating Rahi that can be easily taken over by Krana, since they weren't the Great Beings so they weren't as concerned about the purpose of the Bohrok etc.

Edited June 9, 2015 by Thormen

[The 1st Shadow]

 it's easier to use the infected masks if you have lots of Kraata, because then you can infect lots of masks.

 

Not if you have a few kraata with the single instruction of "Go infect all Rahi you see," or just, "Go infect every Kane-ra you find on this island." Doesn't have to be done overnight.

 

EDIT: Also, there weren't thousands of kraata in that cave--just a few hundred. And no one ever said that Teridax popped them all out overnight, either. Could have done a batch every other month or so until he was sure all the Rahi were infected.

Edited June 9, 2015 by The~1st~Shadow

[FallenCor]

 

 

I'm starting to wonder if Teridax was the only one to use the infected kanohi method. If he was, then that still don't tell us why the rahi have masks at all. If he isn't, then maybe the Makuta have fail-safes for all or most of their powers.

 

That gives me an idea...

 

Going off of my point from earlier:

 

The Makuta were not always beings of gaseous antidermis. They were biomechanical at one point. The creation of kraata was much more difficult and more strenuous on the Makuta before they evolved. Why put yourself through all that when you can just make a way to control the Rahi without hurting yourself? Sure, while Teridax was terrorizing the Matoran on Mata Nui, this wouldn't have been a problem, since he was already antidermis. But when the Makuta first started out, they weren't like that, and so they would have used the easiest option--masks.

 

We know that some rahi have slots for Kanohi (Muaka, Nui-Jaga), while others don't (Kikanalo, Lohrak). What if there's more of a reason to this?

 

In the beginning, the Makuta would have had a tough time with creating kraata, as I said, so they may have gone with the masked Rahi feature then, to provide them with a means to control large quantities of creatures from a distance. Later, though, when they evolved, and kraata-creation was made easier, they could have left out the Kanohi option in favor of mass-producing the kraata and Rahkshi.

 

See? 

 

Few kraata=Lots of masked beasts

Lot's of kraata=few masked beasts

 

This opens up another topic: timeline for when Rahi were produced. This would suggest that the Rahi we saw in 2001/02/03-era were made before the Makuta evolved, and any other sets we got were of creatures produced after the evolution to antidermis, when Rahkshi of Rahi Control would have been easier to produce. 

 

Plausible?

Could be!

 

Another thing to add: I just read that all kraata created before the Makuta evolved took much longer to produce, and were all inferior to the later ones. The infected kanohi were probably used to get around this predicament. I mean, if my superpower sucked, I'd be looking for an alternative, too.   

 

And I was always under the impression that the Makuta didn't just start his infected Rahi assault right before the Toa Mata arrived, but that he was infecting and controlling Rahi throughout the entire Dark Time.

Pardon, I mistyped. He infected all of those kanohi 999 years before the Toa arrived, yes. Edit: Or at least the bulk of them. He'd need only three or four kraata to make it work, infecting a few rahi every night while they slept. He had 999 years to do it, so he wouldn't even have to worry about creating more kraata, at least for the time being.

Edited June 10, 2015 by SilverCor

[bonesiii]

And, as has been stated several times, this discussion has nothing to do with the actual topic, and hasn't for days.

Not quite. I mentioned it's loosely related, as we don't know for an absolute fact that Krana could do just as well taking over Rahi without the mask-connecting spots. I gave examples of why.

 

I have been going back and forth between whether I should give notice that the tangent has gone on long enough though, since it's such a thin connection. I've decided that for now I'm not going to, but can we still wrap it up? Or if you feel strongly enough about it Thormen, you can go ahead and make another topic even though I'm not demanding it. You might find people are less resistant to it if they aren't always thinking "it's off-topic" in the back of their heads.

 

After the post I've quoted a part of above, I ran out of time to read every word. Skimmed some. Hope yall have been behaving.

 

On-topic: I think, like I said in my last post, the problem with your reasoning Thormen is that it is aiming to lessen the variations on the theme of control, yet Bionicle's goal was to increase them. Whether you think the timing of when they thought of Kraata is relevant or not, Bionicle still wasn't trying to keep this one limited to just one version of control, and for reasons that made sense at the time.

 

And more to the point, in-story the Makuta are scientists and variety would seem to be likely as part of their personalities since they have so many powers and are tasked with creating so many different types of Rahi. In the real world we do try to make variations on themes, often with only very subtle differences, just to get a little advantage over another design. Sometimes multiple variations are found to be useful for different situations and are both used.

 

While that doesn't make for a simple story, it seems unavoidable to me that if it was a real universe, variations like this of some sort would happen.

 

That, I think, is the issue I was sensing with your reasoning; while you're speaking in-story, you're still aiming for something that looks more fitting to an out-of-story goal; keeping the story very simple. Therefore both in-story and out-story things are relevant, and IMO the strictly in-story reasoning is the one that only supports having the wider variation. (And an official reason has been given; the range issue, which remains with both Kraata and Rahkshi, though it's lessened by them.)

 

Sorry if any of that is redundant with what yall have said above.

[Thormen]

I have been going back and forth between whether I should give notice that the tangent has gone on long enough though, since it's such a thin connection. I've decided that for now I'm not going to, but can we still wrap it up? Or if you feel strongly enough about it Thormen, you can go ahead and make another topic even though I'm not demanding it. You might find people are less resistant to it if they aren't always thinking "it's off-topic" in the back of their heads.

I think the biggest part of this discussion is over anyway, so creating a new topic for it doesn't make so much sense to me anymore now. If I'd been told a few days ago to either create a topic for it or drop it, then I would've created a new topic but now I would just drop it (especially because of the alternatives Regitnui mentioned and the point T1 made about the Makuta evolving).

 

At this point the only thing I have to say anymore is that the number of Kraata in the cave in 2003 was not 'just a few hundred' or 'three or four', but it was actually thousands. In the scene we're talking about on page 13 of Comic 13 Rise of the Rahkshi Whenua says so:

 

Behold... the spoils of our hunt. Thousands of Kraata safely suspended in time and space. Hidden here as they have been for years.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

I asked Greg about why Makuta used infected masks instead of Kraata of Rahi Control. I also asked by Rahi can wear masks.

 

So, he said that kraata were slated to be part of 2003 storyline. He didn't say whether they had been thought of or not, but since they were to be used in 2003, they weren't used in 2001.

 

As for mask-wearing Rahi, he hinted that the Makuta intentionally put "mask slots" on them, possibly to control them.

 

Now as for krana possession, I have to bring up that no non-Bohrok character to be controlled by a krana was ever seen trying to clear Mata Nui. Lewa, Matau, and all the Le-Matoran except Kongu and Tamaru were possessed, and as I recall and they didn't seem to do much besides chase the two free Le-Matoran. Maybe the possessed beings don't actually help clear the island, but perform other tasks like messenger or krana supplier?

 

I can't imagine Rahi being too good at those things.

[Regitnui]

Well, matoran would be horrible at clearing the island, so they were added to the ranks of the Va. Lewa could function as a Kal, so he was put into that position. Generic Rahi might be better in any one of those positions, so would be integrated into the swarm where there talents fit.

[The 1st Shadow]

Many Rahi had powers of their own. Others, like the Muaka, Nui Jaga, and Nui Rama were strong and destructive.

[Cheesy Mac n Cheese]

Well, matoran would be horrible at clearing the island, so they were added to the ranks of the Va. Lewa could function as a Kal, so he was put into that position. Generic Rahi might be better in any one of those positions, so would be integrated into the swarm where there talents fit.

 

 

Lewa wasn't acting as a Bohrok-Kal. The Bohrok-Kal were an emergency resource meant to be used of the Bohrok were prevented from clearing the island. The Kal would eliminate whater it is stopping the Bohrok so they could resume their mission.

 

In fact, Lewa didn't seem to be doing much of anything.

[The 1st Shadow]

 

Well, matoran would be horrible at clearing the island, so they were added to the ranks of the Va. Lewa could function as a Kal, so he was put into that position. Generic Rahi might be better in any one of those positions, so would be integrated into the swarm where there talents fit.

 

 

Lewa wasn't acting as a Bohrok-Kal. The Bohrok-Kal were an emergency resource meant to be used of the Bohrok were prevented from clearing the island. The Kal would eliminate whater it is stopping the Bohrok so they could resume their mission.

 

In fact, Lewa didn't seem to be doing much of anything.

 

His air powers were being used to tear up trees. He was clearing the jungle.

[FallenCor]

Now as for krana possession, I have to bring up that no non-Bohrok character to be controlled by a krana was ever seen trying to clear Mata Nui. Lewa, Matau, and all the Le-Matoran except Kongu and Tamaru were possessed, and as I recall and they didn't seem to do much besides chase the two free Le-Matoran. Maybe the possessed beings don't actually help clear the island, but perform other tasks like messenger or krana supplier?

 

I can't imagine Rahi being too good at those things.

 

Depends on the Krana, I guess. It should be noted that Lewa and Matau were each wearing a Krana Za, the "squad leader" mask. From what I've read, anyone possessed by a Za is effectively a walking intel hub. I don't know how reliable the comics are as far as background art, but I remember there being a number of Matoran who wore Xa and Vu, the "strategist" and "surveyor" Krana. The Bohrok could easily give Rahi the Yo, Su and Ca, the "tunneler," "worker" and "clearance worker," respectively.

[LegoSWfan]

Krahi?

 

I guess the infected species would be assimilated into the greater hive mind, after all, it's never said Rahi CAN' T become a host.