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Answer me this: Where is your evidence for Ekimu being transformed into something new?

 

 

 

 

 

The light from the glowing hammer expanded over Ekimu and his figure, and he was transformed from a frail figure into a powerful warrior.

 

Congratulations, you learned how to repeat yourself. Listen, that little excerpt wasn't convincing before, and it isn't now.

 

Frail figure most likely means he was weak and malnourished from his coma. Powerful warrior most likely means muscles regrown and he's now back to his old self.

 

Just ask Hercules how it works:

 

 

Went from strong to weak, and yet was still perfectly capable of swimming in a river of death, before being "transformed" back into his more powerful self. And it can't look like that for Ekimu because...?

 

Frail doesn't necessarily mean "incapable" you know.

 

Anyway, instead of repeating yourself with your unconvincing evidence, try posting a description of what his new form looks like, if there was one. 

 

 

I leave you with that.

Edited by T1Shadow: The Artisan
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Answer me this: Where is your evidence for Ekimu being transformed into something new?

 

 

 

 

 

The light from the glowing hammer expanded over Ekimu and his figure, and he was transformed from a frail figure into a powerful warrior.

 

Congratulations, you learned how to repeat yourself. Listen, that little excerpt wasn't convincing before, and it isn't now.

 

Frail figure most likely means he was weak and malnourished from his coma. Powerful warrior most likely means muscles regrown and he's now back to his old self.

 

Just ask Hercules how it works:

 

 

Went from strong to weak, and yet was still perfectly capable of swimming in a river of death, before being "transformed" back into his more powerful self. And it can't look like that for Ekimu because...?

 

Frail doesn't necessarily mean "incapable" you know.

 

Anyway, instead of repeating yourself with your unconvincing evidence, try posting a description of what his new form looks like, if there was one. 

 

 

I leave you with that.

 

Wait tell the next book, then. The first one isn't going to go in-depth for what 2016 has in store.

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The other argument against the Skull Creatures being amalgamations of villager parts comes from LEGO Shop's description of Skull Warrior:

Rip off their masks with the hook blade and channel their elemental power to awaken more of the Skull Warrior’s undead comrades!

The words "awaken" and "comrades" somewhat imply that the Skull Warriors had individual existences in the past, and are now being resurrected. It would certainly be an unconventional use of the word "undead" if they are in fact new amalgamations of parts, who didn't exist before as individuals (newborn babies aren't referred to as "undead" :P).

 

Regarding this Ekimu thing, I dislike spoilers but felt I had to check what the fuss was about.

I think that "frail" Ekimu and "strong" Ekimu are both represented by the Mask Maker set. "Frail" Ekimu is just old, so has atrophied muscles, is maybe a bit hunched over etc., while "strong" Ekimu has had his body rejuvenated, stands up straight etc. Instantly going from one to the other is certainly a "transformation" and would easily be visible to a character in-story, but it isn't the sort of thing that would make the set version look any different, because Ekimu is still wearing the same armour.

 

 

P.S. To the person who said they take the sets as the highest form of canon; the set got Ekimu's eye colour wrong. ;)

P.P.S. Semi-Kapura-d?

P^3.S. If Ekimu got a brand new form, don't you think the book would make it clearer? Seeing as it spends a page plugging the Protector's weapons to sell sets, you'd expect at least a bit of set-hyping.

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The other argument against the Skull Creatures being amalgamations of villager parts comes from LEGO Shop's description of Skull Warrior:

Rip off their masks with the hook blade and channel their elemental power to awaken more of the Skull Warrior’s undead comrades!

The words "awaken" and "comrades" somewhat imply that the Skull Warriors had individual existences in the past, and are now being resurrected. It would certainly be an unconventional use of the word "undead" if they are in fact new amalgamations of parts, who didn't exist before as individuals (newborn babies aren't referred to as "undead" :P).

 

You wouldn't call newborn babies undead because they're not made of previously dead parts. You could, on the other hand, consider Frankenstein's monster to be undead, despite the monster having not been a single entity who had previously "died".

 

Not even gonna jump into this Ekimu garglemesh, since it's already clear that neither side is going to give any ground. I'm personally skeptical of the "upgraded Ekimu" interpretation, but I'm perfectly content just waiting and seeing what happens in the book, animations, and 2016 story and sets.

Edited by Lyichir
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Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

Aanchir's and Meiko's brother

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Erm...de derm...

 

 

 

So let's count: Ekimu has two forms after he is awakened, mark: 

 

1. His "frail, weakened" form. 

2. His form that he has after being transformed by the Mask of Creation.

 

The articles under dispute are namely: which of these forms does the Mask Maker vs. Skull Grinder set represent?

 

Evidence: 

 

1. Ekimu fights Skull Grinder in his weakened form in the book. This suggests that his weakened form is portrayed in the set, since the battle is also portrayed in the set. 

2. The Legends Video portrays Ekimu in a form similar to his set form in Mask Maker vs. Skull Grinder, which would in theory be his more powerful form, since he had not deteriorated during that time. While this portrayal could be a larger form, the size of his portrayal, and more importantly, his gear function suggest otherwise. 

 

It appears that evidence at the moment is evenly matched, and no effective conclusions can be drawn.

 

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Erm...de derm...

 

 

 

It appears that evidence at the moment is evenly matched, and no effective conclusions can be drawn.

 

^Couldn't put it better myself. Let's get back to discussing the zombified whatever-they-are that is the Skull Army.

 

The other argument against the Skull Creatures being amalgamations of villager parts comes from LEGO Shop's description of Skull Warrior:

 

Rip off their masks with the hook blade and channel their elemental power to awaken more of the Skull Warrior’s undead comrades!

The words "awaken" and "comrades" somewhat imply that the Skull Warriors had individual existences in the past, and are now being resurrected. It would certainly be an unconventional use of the word "undead" if they are in fact new amalgamations of parts, who didn't exist before as individuals (newborn babies aren't referred to as "undead" :P).

 

But like Lyichir pointed out, Frankenstein's monster is considered a form of undead because it is built from dead parts. Is it not unthinkable that there are more "Skull Warriors" pre-assembled, and the elemental energy stolen from the mask is their metaphorical lightning bolt, waking the collection of Protector parts to life. So while they may be "awakened" "Comrades" it doesn't necessarily prove that they had a living existence. The blades, chains and blasters could all be Ancient City-Protector weapons that the Village-Protectors left behind/lost and haven't been able to re-forge without the Ancient City's resources.

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Erm...de derm...

 

 

 

So let's count: Ekimu has two forms after he is awakened, mark: 

 

1. His "frail, weakened" form. 

2. His form that he has after being transformed by the Mask of Creation.

 

The articles under dispute are namely: which of these forms does the Mask Maker vs. Skull Grinder set represent?

 

Evidence: 

 

1. Ekimu fights Skull Grinder in his weakened form in the book. This suggests that his weakened form is portrayed in the set, since the battle is also portrayed in the set. 

2. The Legends Video portrays Ekimu in a form similar to his set form in Mask Maker vs. Skull Grinder, which would in theory be his more powerful form, since he had not deteriorated during that time. While this portrayal could be a larger form, the size of his portrayal, and more importantly, his gear function suggest otherwise. 

 

It appears that evidence at the moment is evenly matched, and no effective conclusions can be drawn.

 

From which my conclusion follows, that the set represents both "versions" of Ekimu. The "transformation" mentioned in the book is exactly what it says - Ekimu goes from being physically weak to strong. Why would that affect the LEGO parts used to represent his clothes?

 

 

I suppose you guys got me on the "undead" thing. Still, it doesn't seem likely that elemental energy alone can assemble new beings from parts, and the product description doesn't suggest anything else taking part in the production of a Skull Warrior.

(Anticipating the "but Mask of Creation" responses - I made a longer post earlier - unless you have more spoilers from the book saying otherwise, Kulta isn't in possession of the Mask in the animation trailer, suggesting he didn't have it when the first Skull Creatures were created.)

 

Sorry to break it to you though, but babies are made from previously dead parts - dead plants and animals eaten by the mother. :o

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Don't be pedantic. That's the chemical level, so inapplicable.

 

I never said elemental power was the construction power, but the energizing method. Kulta (at first) and his servants (later) could build the bodies and use elemental power to awaken/revive/energize the construction. In that sense, they'd be more like bone/flesh golems than traditional zombies.

:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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Don't be pedantic. That's the chemical level, so inapplicable.

I never said elemental power was the construction power, but the energizing method. Kulta (at first) and his servants (later) could build the bodies and use elemental power to awaken/revive/energize the construction. In that sense, they'd be more like bone/flesh golems than traditional zombies.

Ah, I didn't realise you meant Kulta would physically assemble the bodies himself. That works. Seems a bit dark for a children's toy line? ;)

Also, I was attempting to be humorous with the baby thing. I wanted to put five :o faces in a row to make it clear but the site wouldn't let me. :(

 

Seeing as you've explained that quote, here's a new counter argument:

If you say that the Skull Creatures are made of villager parts, then look at the places on them where their skeleton is showing. The pieces that represent "bare bones" are actually longer than any limb segment on any Protector set, ruling them out as previously being an individual villager bone. (And since we can see the inner skeleton in those pieces, we can also see that they are not two or more villager bones fused together.)

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Don't be pedantic. That's the chemical level, so inapplicable.

I never said elemental power was the construction power, but the energizing method. Kulta (at first) and his servants (later) could build the bodies and use elemental power to awaken/revive/energize the construction. In that sense, they'd be more like bone/flesh golems than traditional zombies.

Ah, I didn't realise you meant Kulta would physically assemble the bodies himself. That works. Seems a bit dark for a children's toy line? ;)

Also, I was attempting to be humorous with the baby thing. I wanted to put five :o faces in a row to make it clear but the site wouldn't let me. :(

 

Seeing as you've explained that quote, here's a new counter argument:

If you say that the Skull Creatures are made of villager parts, then look at the places on them where their skeleton is showing. The pieces that represent "bare bones" are actually longer than any limb segment on any Protector set, ruling them out as previously being an individual villager bone. (And since we can see the inner skeleton in those pieces, we can also see that they are not two or more villager bones fused together.)

 

The bone elements are actually NOT longer than individual bones on villagers. They're 5M, the same length as many of the bones on the Protector sets. In fact, Skull Grinder is the only one of the new villains who uses longer bone elements.

 

Besides that, there's nothing to suggest that the individual parts of the sets are exactly the same as the individual parts of the characters in the story. Keep in mind that Kulta's base of operations is a forge—the perfect place for fabricating new parts for his minions. The Skull Villains don't necessarily have to be rebuilt versions of other figure designs any more than the 2003 Matoran could be rebuilt with the parts of the Tohunga.

 

Of course, personally I doubt the Skull villains are composed ONLY of villager parts, and we don't know that the villagers have always been the only living creatures on Okoto. It's entirely possible that other people, animals, and other beings used to call Okoto their home. That's not to say that the Skull villains are explicitly the dead remains of other beings who will ever become relevant to the story—I think the chances that there was once a living counterpart to every one of the new sets is extremely low.

Edited by Lyichir

Formerly Lyichir: Rachira of Influence

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@Lyichir

Ah, that's embarrassing... I was sure that it wasn't just Kulta who had the longer bones. :(

Still, my argument works if applied to Kulta, so he himself is evidence for a race of taller-than-villager beings.

 

I guess Kulta could make new parts if he were skilled enough - not sure why though.

 

How I see it is if you have dead bodies of ready-made tall beings (which we seem to agree on; Regitnui was the one I was trying to convince) then it is simplest to just resurrect them as they are. That would give you Skull Warrior.

Mixing in villager parts / other being parts would be unnecessary extra work, unless you need to create a being for a specific purpose. That is what Basher seems to be, from its product description (and possibly Scorpio, too).

 

Which brings me to Skull Slicer, who seems least likely to have been modified since when he was an arena champion (any modification would be likely to make him a worse fighter). His magazine description says how his blades he owned previously fused to his hands when resurrected, and he has three blades. That suggests that he always had the four arms, something not seen (so far?) in the villager species.

 

P.S. Do we know whether Scorpio is a unique character yet? I'm leaning towards yes, going by lack of duplicates on the box art, but am not sure...

Edited by Votuko
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His magazine description says how his blades he owned previously fused to his hands when resurrected, and he has three blades. That suggests that he always had the four arms, something not seen (so far?) in the villager species.

 

P.S. Do we know whether Scorpio is a unique character yet? I'm leaning towards yes, going by lack of duplicates on the box art, but am not sure...

 

I am beginning to doubt the accuracy of the magazine's description with the recent video. The magazine implied that Slices was under the control of LoSS; however this is probably not the case, since he (rather obviously) took off the Skull Spider mask in the animation. 

I am also beginning to doubt whether there is actual history to these guys, since a lot of what we've found out has been very vague and/or conflicting. 

 

Nevertheless, it is quite possible to have a previously not seen species, because of the cataclysm after Makuta's thing with the MoUP, which may have caused mass destruction/extinction. 

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GUYS

OKOTO WAS INHABITED BY HUMANS LONG AGO.

They were killed off by the protectors and now they seek their skeletal revenge.

Of course, that well-known race of four-armed beings. Why didn't I think of that? ;)
Well, either humans or these guys.

 

,228px-Fallen_Grimoire.png

 

Still Vandalizing beyond the grave

Edited by Toa Cykron
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I've been out of the S&T game for a while, but my awareness of the summer wave of BIONICLE sets and the subject of this topic brought me back to check out. I've read through the topic, and I think I am of the camp that the Skull Warriors are indeed reanimated corpses, made from a various amalgam of parts. Historically, Lego has never favored more "darker" explanations, like the one posited that the Skull Warriors are undead Toa characters from ancient times. Too morally sticky and complex for this new, reductionist BIONICLE. Besides, there is no hard proof that BIONICLE this time is limiting itself to "good" characters with three stages of life (Matoran, Toa, Turaga) being the only inhabitants of the island. Too many unknowns.

 

Taking that into consideration, however, brings me to my first realization. Lego has no reason to really delve into the backstory of the Skull Warriors. Again, considering the reductionist perspective of this new BIONICLE, it seems too deep to pin down exactly what the Skull Warriors are. Someone earlier mentioned the skull warriors from Ninjago never being fully explained in spite of mostly being humanoid in appearance. I have a feeling such might be the case again here. It just doesn't "feel" like what new BIONICLE does. The books, as shown by the preview from the one mentioned by BZP news, clearly are giving some necessary depth (i.e. names for the members of the protector race), but they may be few and far between, and regardless, will still be limited in scope since they are aimed for younger readers. I'm not denying the chance that new BIONICLE, as conceived by Lego, can surprise us, but it just doesn't seem like the modus operandi this time around.

 

Finally, I have a question. Where do the Skull Spiders fit in all this? Are they re-animated forms of Rahi-like life, too, and if so, what makes them subservient to this Kulta and Lord of Skull Spiders (gah, I wish they would publickly use actual names. I'd settle for Lucasian nomenclature like "Evilus" or "Skullox" at this point)? What is the hiearchy? Perhaps the warriors are made partly from skull spider parts, too?

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Thank heavens the Ekimu debate died.
 
 
What I see this as is:
 
Grinder, resurrected through yet unexplained forces, uses dark-magic-stereotypical-evil powers to create an army of warriors from deceased beings of a to-be-revealed race(hence a humanoid head on Scorpio, and the translucent ribcages). Or parts from dead villagers, perhaps.
 
In that case, they would be the villagers that died in the Skull Spider attacks from before(if anyone could actually die from those wimpy things). A select few to be tough commanders, and voila, you got an army.
 
 
(On the case of Skull Spiders: I consider them all to be animated masks based off the main Spider Control mask, possibly created by dark-magic-stereotypical-evil powers. Then, they would all be controlled by the main mask, and just find a really big spider smart enough to control it.)

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The City is locked in time. So, while beings can go in or out, they can't meaningfully change anything. I bet you ten widgets the Masters come back and see the bridge where they sent LoSS to the bottom of the valley whole again.

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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You only made that bet because widgets don't exist :P

 

 

Anyway, the city is in a state of paralysis, which, in Regitnui's idea, proves the Skull army came from the outside. So they couldn't be from the graveyard, meaning they're either a different species or pieced from the dead not in the city. But then we have the issue of Kulta.

 

Ekimu recognizes Kulta by name as soon as he sees him, which means either Kulta was always like that, or LEGO's playing a Ninjago on us and it's somebody Ekimu defeated years ago, lala... That sort of thing.

 

But what is the Skull army?

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Erm, how about this? Toa enter the forge and "awaken" the city, unsticking it in time. Then the Skeletons come out of it and start attacking. 

 

Either that, or "stuck in time" merely means bound by time - the way I can't jump into the future magically and steal the next wave of Bionicle sets and come back.  

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Something worth pointing out is that the description says the City can be reawakened by relighting the great forge.

Looking at the animation trailer, and all the box art showing light coming from the forge building, it looks like the forge has already been partially relit, perhaps just enough to allow Kulta to start resurrecting dead inhabitants?

 

It was once a place of wonder and beautiful landscapes, but currently the city is in a state of stasis, frozen in time. Ever since the last embers of the Great Forge were extinguished the city has been waiting for heroes to bring it back to life. If the Great Forge is lit again, the city will awaken.

Edit:

To be honest though, I don't really think the "frozen in time" is meant literally. My theory is that the City is powered by (elemental?) energy that is channeled out from the Great Forge. Once the Forge went out all of the City's technology stopped working, freezing the City in the state it was back then.

 

This also suggests a reason that the villagers abandoned a perfectly good city back then; after the Great Cataclysm, there was nobody left who knew how to keep the Forge lit because it had been the job of the Mask Makers. When this happened, all of the infrastructure that had brought them food etc. stopped working. That made life in the City no longer possible, so the villagers we're forced to return to an agricultural lifestyle.

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Okoto is not Bara magna.

@Shadow

 

1) That's not the problem. The problem is the lack of evidence that the set form isn't the older Ekimu.

 

2) I've no idea which came first, but I don't see that it matters. As I explained before, it's unlikely LEGO would want to show Ekimu in anything but his 2015 form in 2014. Besides, it's not as if being later makes what the book says any less valid.

 

 

Answer me this: Where is your evidence for Ekimu being transformed into something new?

 

 

The light from the glowing hammer expanded over Ekimu and his figure, and he was transformed from a frail figure into a powerful warrior.

 

 

It is important that the scene takes place after Kulta has been defeated.

The former is unlikely, considering the dynamic pose he's shown in on the box.

The dynamic pose

is portrayed in the IoLM, where Ekimu leaps into the air and knocks the Mask of Creation off of Grinder's face. The transformation comes afterwards.

 

but what I am saying is that it's an awful lot of effort for no gain. Let's let that debate rest now, OK?

I don't see how where the effort is. It's quite simple. The Legend animation portrays Ekimu as he is in 2015, for reasons explained above. All this requires is for the artist to draw him that way. Then the book portrays him as older until he defeats Grinder, at which point he gains a stronger body. All this requires is for Ryder Wyndham to describe him as such.

 

That's my last word (I hope) on the matter.

Debunking you all, Ekimu has had the same shape of the protector since the first animation. No where do you see him in any other form. Just putting it out there.
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  • 2 weeks later...

 

I doubt that they will go into their origins

Nah, this is Bionicle. Everything gets explained eventually. 

 

 

Nah, this is G2 Bionicle. There's no reason to believe it will abide by its predecessor's rules and principles.

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Nah, this is G2 Bionicle. There's no reason to believe it will abide by its predecessor's rules and principles.

 

Toa

 

Makuta

 

Four-Legged Spiders

 

It's doing just fine so far; back on topic please.

 

You forgot magic masks and divided islands. :P

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