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Toa of Earth and earthquakes?


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In the original series, beings with control over the elemental power of earth - like Toa of Earth - could generate seismic shocks or earthquakes. I didn't think much of this until recently, when I stumbled upon a discussion topic on why there is a difference between what Toa of Earth and Stone control. I'm new here, so I'm not too sure on how to quote things, but an excerpt from one of Greg's Q&As was brought up, and it said that Toa of Earth essentially manipulate soil, as opposed to rock, which is what Toa of Stone control.

And that's odd.

Earthquakes in our world (as far as I recall, and assuming quick googling is accurate) only really form when the Earth's crust moves. And the crust is essentially stone. I know the Mata Nui robot's ecology and geography clearly don't match up to Earth's, but I highly doubt that their version of the crust is made of soil - that would be horrible as a foundation for entire islands.

Anyone have input on this?

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Very good question.

 

Taking into the account that the MU did not have tectonic plates, what was left? The dirt and clay that sat on top of the island foundations. Who controls that? Toa of Earth. Since the soil and clay are so closely connected to that rock foundation, I'm guessing that Toa of Earth do it by transmitting the seismic waves through the earthen material into the harder stuff underneath.

 

Spherus Magna's geologic structure is evidently very different from ours, so its possible that the planet didn't have tectonic plates like ours, so the GB's wouldn't have bothered to consider something they didn't know about.

 

By any of those logical paths, Stone should also be able to cause quakes. If it can't, I wonder why...

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Huh, I didn't think of it that way. That's a pretty reasonable way of putting it.

About the stone-people-not-going-BOOM-WITH-THE-EARTHQUAKES, maybe it's harder for them to manipulate stone that's that far down. Also, maybe it's because stone is a more precise power than earth? Maybe I read too much into the Greg answer, but he seemed to imply that Earth Toa kind of were more attuned to vibrations, while Stone Toa have more to do with pinpoint control? Maybe Toa of Stone can't really vibrate rock as easily as Toa of Earth make soil move - owing to consistency and the way their powers are designed.

... Am I making sense here?

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It's likely that "earthquakes" is just a misuse of the term (at least compared to how we use it).

 

A Toa of Earth could create what feels like an earthquake by shaking the soil below a target. If the goal of the earthquake power is to shake the ground, then that will suffice, and the rock below does not need to shake.

(IRL, the rock shaking is the energy source makes the earth you are stood on move in an earthquake. With the Toa power, the Toa is the energy source instead.)

 

A Toa of Stone, however, cannot make an earthquake because they would have to do it by shaking the distant underlying rock. Most of the time, this rock will be outside the range of their powers. And even if they could reach the rock, they would have to put an immense amount of energy into shaking it because so much of that energy would dissipate before reaching the bit of the surface they want to shake.

(Real life earthquakes involve amounts of energy comparable to multiple nuclear blasts being released at fault lines. This is likely to be many times the amount of energy that is available to even a Toa Nuva for elemental control.)

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  • 3 weeks later...

A toa of earth could simulate an earthquake by shaking the soil underneath them.

A toa of stone could simulate one as well. They just need stone somewhere that they can shake.

 

I wondered about this years ago, and came up with something similar. My conclusion was that Toa of Earth generate earthquakes by shaking up the soil which everyone is standing on, while a Toa of Stone would create an earthquake by cracking the bedrock beneath the soil. That was my best guess.  :shrugs:

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Toa of earth control the aqua magna Earth, earthquakes happen because of tectonic activity deep within the MU Earth, Toa of earth presumably simulate earthquakes on a small scale by targeting  secton of earth and causing minisicule and localized tremors using their superior earth command.

 

last i checked a Toa of Stone has never performed an example of earthquake power. they mostly throw rocks and collapse load-bearing-columns. :0

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Toa of earth control the aqua magna Earth, earthquakes happen because of tectonic activity deep within the MU Earth, Toa of earth presumably simulate earthquakes on a small scale by targeting  secton of earth and causing minisicule and localized tremors using their superior earth command.

 

last i checked a Toa of Stone has never performed an example of earthquake power. they mostly throw rocks and collapse load-bearing-columns. :0

 

Well, I would distinguish between earth with a small "e" and Earth with a capital "E". Toa of Earth control small "e" earth as in soil.  I don't think they can manipulate capital "E" Earth as in planetary crust.

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Toa of earth control the aqua magna Earth, earthquakes happen because of tectonic activity deep within the MU Earth, Toa of earth presumably simulate earthquakes on a small scale by targeting  secton of earth and causing minisicule and localized tremors using their superior earth command.

 

last i checked a Toa of Stone has never performed an example of earthquake power. they mostly throw rocks and collapse load-bearing-columns. :0

 

Well, I would distinguish between earth with a small "e" and Earth with a capital "E". Toa of Earth control small "e" earth as in soil.  I don't think they can manipulate capital "E" Earth as in planetary crust.

 

 

there is no difference, Earth is earth, and earth is Earth. the planet is made of the material, "earth" is anything that makes up the matrial foundation of "Earth" including rocks. (but not trees, plants, etc.)

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It's likely that "earthquakes" is just a misuse of the term (at least compared to how we use it).

 

I'd say that's it's a more literal use of the term. They're causing the actual earth to shake rather than what's beneath it, maybe.

 

However, we have no idea if the robot even contained tectonic plates. I tend to doubt it. I think the Great beings wanted all the islands and continents to remain in the same place, and adding tectonic plates adds the risk of things like continental drift. Besides, landmasses were contained in domes, so there wasn't much room for plates to move around, anyway.

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Toa of earth control the aqua magna Earth, earthquakes happen because of tectonic activity deep within the MU Earth, Toa of earth presumably simulate earthquakes on a small scale by targeting  secton of earth and causing minisicule and localized tremors using their superior earth command.

 

last i checked a Toa of Stone has never performed an example of earthquake power. they mostly throw rocks and collapse load-bearing-columns. :0

 

Well, I would distinguish between earth with a small "e" and Earth with a capital "E". Toa of Earth control small "e" earth as in soil.  I don't think they can manipulate capital "E" Earth as in planetary crust.

 

 

there is no difference, Earth is earth, and earth is Earth. the planet is made of the material, "earth" is anything that makes up the matrial foundation of "Earth" including rocks. (but not trees, plants, etc.)

 

 

...I'm not seeing it. You're lumping together two different things. Capital "e" Earth =/= small "e" earth. Small "e" earth--at least as far as BIONICLE is concerned--is just soil. That's it. On the other hand, "Earth" is the planetary body, made up of far more than just soil. A Toa of Earth can control dirt and soil, and even do so on a large scale, but they cannot actually influence the crust itself (which is made of rock).

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...I'm not seeing it. You're lumping together two different things. Capital "e" Earth =/= small "e" earth. Small "e" earth--at least as far as BIONICLE is concerned--is just soil. That's it. On the other hand, "Earth" is the planetary body, made up of far more than just soil. A Toa of Earth can control dirt and soil, and even do so on a large scale, but they cannot actually influence the crust itself (which is made of rock).

 

 

If that was true why do toa of earth constantly control rocks and crust?

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...I'm not seeing it. You're lumping together two different things. Capital "e" Earth =/= small "e" earth. Small "e" earth--at least as far as BIONICLE is concerned--is just soil. That's it. On the other hand, "Earth" is the planetary body, made up of far more than just soil. A Toa of Earth can control dirt and soil, and even do so on a large scale, but they cannot actually influence the crust itself (which is made of rock).

 

 

If that was true why do toa of earth constantly control rocks and crust?

 

 

...They don't. Toa of Earth never control rocks and crust. The only instance they might be interpreted as doing that is when they generate earthquakes, and I'm arguing they simply simply "quake" the top level of soil, rather than the bedrock/crust underneath (or whatever the MU had).

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...They don't. Toa of Earth never control rocks and crust. The only instance they might be interpreted as doing that is when they generate earthquakes, and I'm arguing they simply simply "quake" the top level of soil, rather than the bedrock/crust underneath (or whatever the MU had).

 

 

Or when Onua brings down cave/tunnel ceilings, or when he makies pillars of stone shoot from the earth. :t

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...They don't. Toa of Earth never control rocks and crust. The only instance they might be interpreted as doing that is when they generate earthquakes, and I'm arguing they simply simply "quake" the top level of soil, rather than the bedrock/crust underneath (or whatever the MU had).

 

 

Or when Onua brings down cave/tunnel ceilings, or when he makies pillars of stone shoot from the earth. :t

 

Where did Onua make pillars of stone shoot from the earth?

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...They don't. Toa of Earth never control rocks and crust. The only instance they might be interpreted as doing that is when they generate earthquakes, and I'm arguing they simply simply "quake" the top level of soil, rather than the bedrock/crust underneath (or whatever the MU had).

 

 

Or when Onua brings down cave/tunnel ceilings, or when he makies pillars of stone shoot from the earth. :t

 

Where did Onua make pillars of stone shoot from the earth?

 

 

 

okay, my mistake, i was recalling the scene from MNOG but upon reflecting that was Pohatu making the pillars of stone, Onua was creating fissures at that point, my bad (but still a valid example of onua manipulating deeper crust...)

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...They don't. Toa of Earth never control rocks and crust. The only instance they might be interpreted as doing that is when they generate earthquakes, and I'm arguing they simply simply "quake" the top level of soil, rather than the bedrock/crust underneath (or whatever the MU had).

 

 

Or when Onua brings down cave/tunnel ceilings, or when he makies pillars of stone shoot from the earth. :t

 

Where did Onua make pillars of stone shoot from the earth?

 

 

 

okay, my mistake, i was recalling the scene from MNOG but upon reflecting that was Pohatu making the pillars of stone, Onua was creating fissures at that point, my bad (but still a valid example of onua manipulating deeper crust...)

 

 

Tunnels are just holes in the earth. There may be hard-packed earth, but it's still earth. Also: "The only instance they might be interpreted as doing [controlling crust] is when they generate earthquakes, and I'm arguing they simply simply "quake" the top level of soil, rather than the bedrock/crust underneath."

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i'm not too sure where people are getting the idea that it's taboo for onua to manipulate stone at all, since the only person i recall saying it was particle size was Bones, and i'm usually pretty hesitant to trust info straight from bones. :0

 

What i keep saying is, undoubtedly, in Bionicle media, certain circumstances cause rock to be be earth instead, like, it's right there. Onua, Whenua, and Nuparu aren't toa of "soil" or "tightly packed soil" or even toa of mulch. they're earth toa and they control/manipulate all aspects of earth, only limited by their toa power radius.

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As well you should be. given my memory. :P But I posted a bunch of Greg quotes in a recent topic, if you missed it (I don't have time to dig it up, but pretty sure the topic's the other one on this subject that's still alive), and it was something Greg settled from discussion in the official elements topic which I was a part of as I was in charge of factlists about it and such; I'm certain on that one. It's also pretty clear from his "hit you with both, see the diff?" quotes. Including stone in that would just not make sense.

 

Also, it's not "taboo," it's just not within his power, RL, and we wouldn't expect it to be -- that's Pohatu's power.

 

 

As for different media, it's well-known that not every media source used the canon rules, and also well-known that you aren't a fan of them. :P And that's okay -- but the topic starter is presumably asking about the canon setup. We can also look at it as multiple canon per source; different interpretations on it by different authors. What would not work would be to say "it's in a source put out by LEGO ergo it's canon", since there are cases where multiple sources put out clearly contradictory things. (But in one of those cases at least, Greg did say it's just two equally valid canons; the moons that killed Teridax, and he's used "comic universe" versus book/movie etc. as well.)

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  • 2 weeks later...

As well you should be. given my memory. :P But I posted a bunch of Greg quotes in a recent topic, if you missed it (I don't have time to dig it up, but pretty sure the topic's the other one on this subject that's still alive), and it was something Greg settled from discussion in the official elements topic which I was a part of as I was in charge of factlists about it and such; I'm certain on that one. It's also pretty clear from his "hit you with both, see the diff?" quotes. Including stone in that would just not make sense.

 

Also, it's not "taboo," it's just not within his power, RL, and we wouldn't expect it to be -- that's Pohatu's power.

 

 

As for different media, it's well-known that not every media source used the canon rules, and also well-known that you aren't a fan of them. :P And that's okay -- but the topic starter is presumably asking about the canon setup. We can also look at it as multiple canon per source; different interpretations on it by different authors. What would not work would be to say "it's in a source put out by LEGO ergo it's canon", since there are cases where multiple sources put out clearly contradictory things. (But in one of those cases at least, Greg did say it's just two equally valid canons; the moons that killed Teridax, and he's used "comic universe" versus book/movie etc. as well.)

 

Thanks bones, that's pretty much what I was asking. And I agree with what Lalonde has to say - media portrays earth Toa as manipulating stone sometimes, mainly when they cause earthquakes, and rationalising that was basically the point of everything above this. I'm not quite sure I recall any other instances where Toa of earth manipulate anything that has to be rock besides the earthquake examples, though. 

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Earth Toa making earthquakes isn't manipulating stone -- it's making the dirt vibrate. :)

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Earth Toa making earthquakes isn't manipulating stone -- it's making the dirt vibrate. :)

 

 

Incredible.

Heh, Bones, I did get that point - I have been reading this thread, after all. Anyway, @Lalonde, I don't really see the issue with that explanation. It works with how the Toa's powers work in canon.

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Heh, Bones, I did get that point - I have been reading this thread, after all.

Okay? Then out of curiosity, what did you mean by the last bit in the previous post about "has to be rock"? :lookaround:

 

RL -- I take it you assumed it was manipulation of stone? What's so incredible about it? Most of the time, 'earth' is what people are standing on, after all, and if you had the ability to control it, surely that's easily possible. Wouldn't assuming it's stone even though there's a different Toa whose element is Stone be the really "incredible" thing? O__o

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I doubt it would cause much friction heat, though that's an interesting idea -- but as for "shaky footing", how is that not what earthquakes do? That can be "shaky buildings" too, keep in mind (as in knocked down, etc.). And if that's your concern, causing it by stone would (other than the high-stress fault breaking mentioned before) be even harder in an earthen area, as it's farther away, so the loose dirt would dampen it, and hold the stone down anyways to make it harder to shake. The dirt is on the surface so doesn't have either problem.

 

I don't know what the last line means. Could you clarify?
 

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Earhtquakes are caused by tremors underground, massive forces usually only sprung by the shifting of a tectonic plate floating on the earth's mantle.

 

Presumably, Toa of earth can control the deep earth well enoguh to localise a tremor should they choose. however, i highly doubt just racking the topsoil is going to replicate that process. (mystical earth-themed magic? maybe, pseudoscience dirt-shaking? probably not!)

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Wait a minute.

 

Are you actually trying to suggest they don't have elemental powers?! What's the point, then, of worrying about which elemental power is shaking what?

 

And yes, real earthquakes, in an area of dirt, are caused by stone. Indirectly. If shaking the dirt wouldn't cause any problem, then whether it's indirect or direct is completely irrelevant, RL.

 

Edit: Except in a way that makes earth more likely, that it's closer and less restricted, as already mentioned. And why are you repeating basics we all know and already discussed about plates?

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Wait a minute.

 

Are you actually trying to suggest they don't have elemental powers?! What's the point, then, of worrying about which elemental power is shaking what?

 

Wait what? what did i say that could possibly lead to that conclusion?

 

Earth-based toa-powers are how thay can cause the impossible feat of a localised teremor, racking the crust without, well, the fault line that is otherwise necessary. :0

 

what i'm saying is, when you vibrate dirt, you vibrate dirt. an earth-shake is not quite an earth-quake, though it is probably useful in it's own scenarios.

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Wait what? what did i say that could possibly lead to that conclusion?

(mystical earth-themed magic? maybe, pseudoscience dirt-shaking? probably not!)

 

 

what i'm saying is, when you vibrate dirt, you vibrate dirt.

And anybody standing on it. Isn't that what this was used for when it was used in-story? (Although off the top of my head, I don't even specifically remember when this was used if ever. I recall it was mentioned in one of the old bios as something he could do, but usually he uses more efficient attacks.)

 

an earth-shake is not quite an earth-quake

It is if it's intense enough, for anything standing on it. Depends on what his goal for it is -- to mess up the footing of an enemy he's fighting, or bring down all structures on an island? (I'm not sure if Onua Mata could do the latter, but he could definitely do the former... and Onua Nuva probably could do both.)

 

But what do you have in mind with the fault? Maybe it would be best to get more specific there. If you mean controlling the rock directly, how would that not be Pohatu's power? Wouldn't you say Pohatu can already do that, so having Onua do it too wouldn't work?

 

(However, Onua could, if the fault stress was near enough to some earth, make the earth push against the rock to add stress and tip it over the edge that way.)

Edited by bonesiii

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Pohatu couldn't cause pohatu couldn't reach that far to move the rocks.

 

 

 

Wait what? what did i say that could possibly lead to that conclusion?

(mystical earth-themed magic? maybe, pseudoscience dirt-shaking? probably not!)

 

that line was me saying if you believe his powers are on the concept of earth, he could probably cause localised quakes, but if you think it has some restrcition based on scientific chemical or physical matter rules (aside from the rule it has to be, well, ground-stuff.) then he probably couldn't pull it off.

 

basically, you're looking a bit too far into a guy punching the earth so hard it quakes. :u

 

 

 

an earth-shake is not quite an earth-quake

It is if it's intense enough, for anything standing on it. Depends on what his goal for it is -- to mess up the footing of an enemy he's fighting, or bring down all structures on an island? (I'm not sure if Onua Mata could do the latter, but he could definitely do the former... and Onua Nuva probably could do both.)
 
But what do you have in mind with the fault? Maybe it would be best to get more specific there. If you mean controlling the rock directly, how would that not be Pohatu's power? Wouldn't you say Pohatu can already do that, so having Onua do it too wouldn't work?
 
(However, Onua could, if the fault stress was near enough to some earth, make the earth push against the rock to add stress and tip it over the edge that way.)

 

That would make people lose their footing, but.... it's more of a landslide than an earthquake. there's a big difference.

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Pohatu couldn't cause pohatu couldn't reach that far to move the rocks.

What? Elemental power doesn't require physical contact to work. Pohatu could shoot elemental energy into the rocks from afar and move them. 

 

 

i mean, have we ever seen pohatu use the tectonic plates or, heck, ven the crust-rock without being somewhat near it? Onua does it just by, well, using the earth between him and the deeper earth to channel it, but i don't think that was exactly how stone powers worked? (pohatru can throw rocks nearly telekinetically, but that's, like throwing rocks. not shifting ground.)

 

i dunno, i'm going by what i've seen and what i've seen is earth and stone are two distnict powersets, not two different flavors of the same one. :0

 

(not claiming to be an expert or anything, i just spend a lot of time thinking about the differences between earth toa-style and stone toa-style.)

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Pohatu couldn't cause pohatu couldn't reach that far to move the rocks.

[Edit: See below. You were probably referring to the part in the last quote here.] Uh, if it's out of a Toa's range, what's it matter which element it is? Unless you are indeed thinking of Onua applying indirect pressure to the fault the way I described...

 

But unless he needs to bring down a whole island, why not just shake the ground under the enemy's feet directly? And the fault thing depends on there happening to be a high stress point close enough anyways, which would be unlikely enough on Earth, but where in the Bionicle settings would it be even close to feasible? On Mata Nui, there's a whole giant robot in the way, though maybe fractures in the bedrock of the island could do a bit of that... In the MU, we don't know that there are any faults to be stressed. It seems unlikely.

 

In a future scenario on Spherus Magna, though, maybe. Would probably work for Okoto too.

 

that line was me saying if you believe his powers are on the concept of earth, he could probably cause localised quakes, but if you think it has some restrcition based on scientific chemical or physical matter rules (aside from the rule it has to be, well, ground-stuff.) then he probably couldn't pull it off.

That doesn't make sense -- elemental power over that material means he can move it around, including shaking it. And "dirt" IS the concept of "earth" as in "earthen" etc. The word means multiple things in English, so multiple concepts. Bionicle uses the one where you can pick "earth" up and throw it, and it feels different than picking up a rock and throwing it -- so it's earth versus rock whether in the ground or not.

 

And if there's a rock underground, can Pohatu control it, or not?

 

basically, you're looking a bit too far into a guy punching the earth so hard it quakes. :u

Okay now I'm even more confused. Was there a case of this in-story I'm forgetting? I thought we were talking about the use of elemental power. He certainly could do that pretty well with a Pakari, though, granted.

 

That would make people lose their footing, but.... it's more of a landslide than an earthquake. there's a big difference.

Well, that term normally means moving down, not vibrating back and forth.

 

i mean, have we ever seen pohatu use the tectonic plates

Again, has he ever been near any?

 

(Prior to SM... I'm presuming there are some there, though I don't recall it being confirmed.)

 

Onua does it just by, well, using the earth between him and the deeper earth to channel it, but i don't think that was exactly how stone powers worked?

You mean using the dirt to channel to the stone? And that because there's dirt in the way, Pohatu's power would be blocked?

 

It's not a bad idea, but I don't recall anything from Bionicle to suggest it. Where are you getting it? (And you still have the problem that once the power reaches it, it's stone and we have a Toa for that already.)

 

If channeling along their own material is a thing, and if having a different element in the way blocks or dampens control of your element, this would suggest Onua and Pohatu would need to work together to make a real-life-style quake via a fault. Or, again, maybe Onua indirectly doing it while still controlling only the dirt. But I doubt Pohatu's power would be blocked at all. My impression has always been it's just a matter of range, although normally I think they focus on what they can see (including Onua).

Edited by bonesiii
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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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Look, one part of what you said is really saying omething to me:

 

 


basically, you're looking a bit too far into a guy punching the earth so hard it quakes. :u

Okay now I'm even more confused. Was there a case of this in-story I'm forgetting? I thought we were talking about the use of elemental power. He certainly could do that pretty well with a Pakari, though, granted.
 

 

 

This, this suggests you assuming toa power is, like, a thing they control with... their mind or something?

 

Onua's fist doesn't cause the earthquake in this hypothetical scenario, his toa powers do, but, (maybe not as a punch) he would need to make a motion to summon the powers, and demonstrate their direction of flow or lock on to a target.

 

(i can't think of a time a toa ever didn't strike an action.direction pose and/or touch their element when using toa powers tbh.)

 

so, it seems Onua would probably punch the earth to make a quake, regardless of how he does it.

 

as for the rest, it seems you're arguing semantics and specifics now, and still somehow assuming particle size is the determining factor for earth-vs-stone...

 

i repeat myself, Incredible...

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(i can't think of a time a toa ever didn't strike an action.direction pose and/or touch their element when using toa powers tbh.)

That's true, but I don't recall any source saying they need to, and pretty much every story with magic powers of any kind does that; it's a psychological thing. We're used to controlling things with our hands, so for example a Jedi like Yoda will raise a hand, even though clearly it's the mind that is actually directing the force. It can help focus the mind since it feels natural. But few of these stories, if any, actually say it's needed. If it was intended as a rule, I'd think it would have been said somewhere.

 

I'm also confused about your question about their mind. You don't think they need to make coded hand signals to tell the element what to do, do you? Whether they have to move a little or not, the mind is definitely directing what actually happens. And since it is, requiring motion too seems unnecessary.

 

assuming particle size is the determining factor for earth-vs-stone...

 

i repeat myself, Incredible...

RL, we've been over this. It isn't assuming, it's what we were told long ago, and backed up constantly by his 'hit with both' explanation, and was common knowledge, often discussed while he was very active here. You shouldn't be surprised that that's going to take precedence over your own ideas, as great as it is that you're being inventive, especially five years after it ended when most people who were active back then have left.

 

It's nothing against your interpretation on its own merit -- as you've been clarifying, it's actually shaping up to sound pretty good, though still confusing on some points like the hit with both thing (I would still like to hear how you handle that, if you have time :)). Just keep it in perspective, okay?

 

And do not use it as a reason to insult people, me or otherwise. You've done this twice now, so I'm going to make this an actual official warning. Remember you agreed on joining not to troll, which this continues to look like. Please behave more like this:

 

(not claiming to be an expert or anything, i just spend a lot of time thinking about the differences between earth toa-style and stone toa-style.)

:) (But, forgiven. :) And I don't really mind, personally... it's just, it's my job to enforce that rule, and it's looking like it needed said.)

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The Destiny of Bionicle (chronological retelling of Bionicle original series, 9 PDFs of 10 chapters each on Google Drive)Part 1 - Warring with Fate | Part 2 - Year of Change | Part 3 - The Exploration Trap | Part 4 - Rise of the Warlords | Part 5 - A Busy Matoran | Part 6 - The Dark Time | Part 7 - Proving Grounds | Part 8 - A Rude Awakening | Part 9 - The Battle of Giants

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RL, we've been over this. It isn't assuming, it's what we were told long ago, and backed up constantly by his 'hit with both' explanation, and was common knowledge, often discussed while he was very active here. You shouldn't be surprised that that's going to take precedence over your own ideas, as great as it is that you're being inventive, especially five years after it ended when most people who were active back then have left.

 

That doesn't sound like a phrase about particle size to me. that sounds like "pohau chucks rocks, onua slings earth" which is honestly what the very element names are telling us so, not sure how that makes your side any less of an asumption than mine. (my side being i've seen onua manipulate rocks, i've seen whenua manipulate rocks. and i'm pretty sure nuparu manipulated rock once too.)

 

theres what you want to believe, and what may or may not make sense, but then there's what's canon to bionicle. which seems to be, Onu-matoran and toa are heavily assosiacted with mining, tunnels, and the deep of underground. and basically, grey-black rocks.

 

honestly, it's not saying too much to say "onua can make earthquakes because earth is in the name and that's basically enough" is it?

 

as i've said before, stone toa basically only ever seem to control rocks that are apart from the ground, and leaving plenty of earth for, well, earth. it's really only at most as arbitrary as something about sand and silt and clay. :0

 

@hand gestures: okay yes, it is a mind thing, but some people concentrate better with certain gestures. also, i'm pretty sure if it was just a mind thing, you wouldn't be able to incapacitate toa jsut by pinning them down or whatnot. :t

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I still see no evidence to decide this topic. The problem is, bones, we don't have your original source for the particle size quote. I'm sorry man, but I'm still rightly skeptical - experience tells me trusting bonesiii's memory is...

 

Not a good idea.

 

However, I am inclined to follow your logic. Particle size and possibly arrangement makes sense. I mean, a rock has more densely packed atoms/particles than a bunch of earth. 

 

But that's off topic. 

 

--------------------------------------------------------------

 

As for earthquakes, somebody said in here that earth is like a fluid. So it's more like, in my mind, someone throwing a rock into the pool of water - Onua can create a shockwave that moves though the earth like that to hit his target. It wouldn't be like a traditional earthquake. 

 

Whereas Pohatu would be able to shake rock through elemental control. But this rock would below the earth, and harder to control than the earth is right below Onua (at least, in a lot of places). Still, if he has a rocky mountain, he could shake it and leave his opponent in trouble. 

 

So, both can do it. Pohatu's would be more "shaking" like in a real earthquake, but it wouldn't be as useful in quite so many situations, while Onua's would be less like a earthquake, but more effective usually, since we usually walk on earth, not stone.

 

If we're talking fault lines, than neither - neither of them can control lava which moves those. :P They would need Tahu for that. :P

 

I'm not sure what 'action gestures' have to do with it, although I do picture Onua stomping the ground when he begins his earth-shockwave thing, just because it looks cool. :shrugs:

 

And if you really want an earthquake, go crash a giant robot. That usually works. :P

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Reading through this topic I've come to the conclusion that some definitions might be in order. "Earth" in the context of BIONICLE has always referred to soil, dirt; "stone" to rocks. In our old age and analytical discussions there has arisen a blurring of line between these powers, but we neglect that the difference is the obvious one: dirt is dirt, rocks are rocks. Dirt may contain rocks, may be made of very small rocks, but if someone threw dirt at you, you wouldn't say "they threw rocks at me!" The only, truly offending power in my mind is Sand because even as a little kid I thought sand was just dirt on the beach. But that's off topic. When we say that Onua is a Toa of Earth, we aren't thinking about a planetary body. There is only one planetary body called "Earth" and even here on Earth when we talk about "earth" (small "e") we mean dirt, soil. Onua being a Toa of Earth and his Earth having a big E is just how English capitalizes such things and shouldn't cause anyone to conflate simple earth with THE Earth.

 

Onto Earthquakes: as has been quite rightly pointed out, these get caused by seismic activity deep within a planet that sends shockwaves out, causing dramatic movement in the upper crust. To cause "earthquakes," it has been stated that Onua simply vibrates the soil beneath his target, and that is a fairly good way to put it. "Vibrations" is problematic to me because it can carry he implication of smaller kinds of shaking. I think a better way to put it would be this: a particular attack Onua and other Earth users have is the ability to cause dramatic shifts in the soil layers beneath their opponents, mimicking the effects of an actual, seismic caused earthquake. You have pretty far down, generally speaking (many, many feet) to get down to actual rock in most places. If the 10-feet of soil under your feet and around your house underwent a dramatic shifting, large scale vibrations, people would call it an "earthquake." You would probably get knocked down, and you might need to repair your foundation.

 

Perhaps the name of "earthquake," is applied here more based on the effect perceived, or on a more proximal causation (shifting of simple earth) than it is by a distal cause (the shift of the Earth or w/e planetary body you happen to be on).

 

Pohatu ought to be able to cause similar effects, but as has been noted he'd have to put more energy into it in an area that isn't bare rock or only covers by a thin soil-layer.

 

Final definitions from that: Earth - dirt, soil; Stone - rocks; Earthquake - an effect of the dramatic shifting of soil beneath or in the area around a target, whether it be caused distally by seismic activity or proximally by an Earth user's power to manipulate said soil.

 

Does that help at all, or am I way off base?

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OK, let's come back at the earthquake thing from a different angle; in Avatar:TLA or TLK, we see earthbenders (in no particular order) move people aside by moving the earth under them, knock people over by rippling the earth, spin people by turning the ground under them, and shake the ground as a side effect of using a lot of power. Taking those as a baseline for what 'earth control' can do, is it really hard to believe that Onua could shake the terrain to cause a localized tremor?

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:r: :e: :g: :i: :t: :n: :u: :i:

Elemental Rahi in Gen2, anyone? A write-up for an initial video for a G2 plot

 

I really wish everyone would stop trying to play join the dots with Gen 1 and Gen 2 though,it seems there's a couple new threads everyday and often they're duplicates of already existing conversations! Or simply parallel them with a slightly new 'twist'! Gen 2 is NEW, it is NOT Gen 1 and it is NOT a continuation. Outside of the characters we already have I personally don't want to see ANY old characters return. I think it will cheapen the whole experience to those of us familiar with the original line...

 

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