Mask of Undeath: Completely Useless?

Rahkshi Lalonde · October 30, 2015

What exactly counts as the user's last objective?

Suppose there was a Toa on a long-term quest to save the universe from Makuta, but he was unceremoniously killed when he stopped to find something for lunch?

Underwhelming version, played straight: they would finish their lunch and promptly drop dead.

Overwhelming version, bones grants it too much power: that would qualify as a "lesser part" of their "overall goal", they would piledrive 600 Gadunkas before completing their main quest.

Ghidora131 · October 30, 2015

What exactly counts as the user's last objective?

Suppose there was a Toa on a long-term quest to save the universe from Makuta, but he was unceremoniously killed when he stopped to find something for lunch?

Underwhelming version, played straight: they would finish their lunch and promptly drop dead.

Overwhelming version, bones grants it too much power: that would qualify as a "lesser part" of their "overall goal", they would piledrive 600 Gadunkas before completing their main quest.

Someone show me 600 Gadunkas together some time.

Naota Takizawa · October 30, 2015

But normal Gadunka are only an inch tall, pile driving 1 of them would be impossible, let alone 600. Also, why bother trying to pile drive them when you can just kill 300 at once with an accidental stomp?

Edited October 30, 2015 by Arnold Schwarzenegger

fishers64 · October 30, 2015

But normal Gadunka are only an inch tall, pile driving 1 of them would be impossible, let alone 600. Also, why bother trying to pile drive them when you can just kill 300 at once with an accidental stomp?

I don't think normal Gadunkas are quite that small.

Seriously, if the Gadunka exteriminator (Gadunkanator XD) died, he probably would use the Mask of Undeath to ensure that no Gadunka in his immediate range managed to escape in the event of his untimely demise. Hence, no Gadunka left behind.

Alyska · October 30, 2015

I'm also curious about the intellectual capabilities of the undead. They surely wouldn't have the personality of the original being, but would they have any sort of basic problem solving skills? Can they understand and respond to the speech of others? Would they check an area for traps and enemies before entering? Or just blunder off the nearest cliff when left to their own devices?

Okay, now I'm picturing a story about some poor Matoran who was accompanying his Toa friend on a epic quest when his friend had a fatal accident, and now the poor little guy has to guide his stupid dead friend along the remainder of the quest and keep him from getting obliterated even further. Facing challenges like said stupid dead friend not understanding the concept of Matoran sometimes needing to stop to sleep or eat. Or the concept of "you wait here and don't wander off". Or "Let's check that the lake's not full of giant hungry eels before we decide to swim through it". And just- having to explain the situation to everyone he meets...

"Greetings, mighty Toa! What has our village done to deserve this visit?"

"Uh, don't mind him, he's uh, not the talking type,"

"Oh?"

"See, he's a bit, well, you know..."

"A bit...?"

"Dead..."

Also, what's all this about "Gadunkas"? Get your grammar together people, everyone knows the plural of Gadunka is Gadunkadunkadunkadunka.

Timageness · October 30, 2015

Well, since Bionicle as a whole has that "tribal" feel, and the original working title for the line may have somewhat referenced this in one manner or another, it would probably be safer to assume that they would funtion more like the original voodoo zombie instead of the radiation/viral zombies we're so used to seeing today in movies and video games.

This is actually why I suggested that the undead in question may have a decrease in mental capacity in the first place, since this type of zombie is actually created by blowing a poisonous powder in the victim's face, which not only gave them the appearance of death upon breathing it in (which caused said person to be buried alive back in the day when autopsies weren't performed), but also caused enough brain damage in the victim to render them highly susceptible to suggestion when combined with the lack of oxygen. Insert their attacker digging them up later and telling them that they were just resurrected from the grave, and the victim now thinks of themselves as a member of the "undead." So essentially, using this as an example, the mask (powered by the bearer's own life force) would theoretically put the user in an undead state and somewhat control their mind after death, using the thought of their last known objective as a reason for their existence.

In short, they probably would retain the ability to speak, though they might have some difficulty putting their sentences together. Being able to concentrate enough to focus their powers, on the other hand, would be a matter of debate, although having them downgraded to somewhere near Turaga-level abilities or something might not be entirely out of the question either (though I highly doubt that they could go Nova).

Edited October 30, 2015 by Timageness

**bonesiii** · November 4, 2015

the only time it would be used would be by someone who doesn't see any value in their own life.

That would be one example; another is somebody who does value life but values their goal more. (Like a Toa who wants to save a group of Matoran from a murderous villain.)

Any sane warrior would instead carry items that can ensure their survival

As said before, usually it would not be "instead", but in addition to.

And this ensures their "survival" in the sense of still having a chance at their goals even after things happen that other masks can't stop (like the Hau if taken by surprise). So this is in a way the same thing in a different way, just focused on that goal rather than only on perpetuating the user's own life. Both villains and heroes can have such goals.

What exactly counts as the user's last objective?

Suppose there was a Toa on a long-term quest to save the universe from Makuta, but he was unceremoniously killed when he stopped to find something for lunch?

That would count, although in the Gen 1 main story we know that didn't happen.

If it's a Toa who knows their destiny, it would probably be that. If a villain, probably whatever causes the most pain in others after they're gone.

It would basically not be anything that only gives value to the user while alive, like "get that treasure so I can be rich the rest of my life".

bones grants it too much power

Again, it can't be both "almost useless" and have "too much power". The too-powerful claim could be made about nearly any mask -- why isn't the Hau too powerful since it could hypothetically protect somebody their whole life against 5 million overgrown Gadunkas?

Well, neither is too powerful because they both have downsides that balance it out and make sense with how it works. The Hau doesn't artificially patch that vulnerability in the back or the like, and Undeath doesn't keep you alive before death or after the charge you built up runs out etc.

I don't think normal Gadunkas are quite that small. [an inch]

I haven't heard this. What's that based on? Do you mean some might be 2 inches, etc.? But I knew what RL meant -- it's beside the point.

I'm also curious about the intellectual capabilities of the undead. They surely wouldn't have the personality of the original being, but would they have any sort of basic problem solving skills?

Unless their brain was damaged, as I see it. The mask draws on any knowledge still stored in the brain that would help for the goal.

respond to the speech of others?

Yes, if talking helps achieve the goal and everything that makes that work is functional. Or maybe if the nerve connections or whatever equiv are broken it might puppeteer the lungs to make it force air in and out anyways, maybe a sort of whispered version of the voice... really creepy. But usually probably a normal voice that just doesn't seem to emote right.

Like, normally if somebody comments on something completely irrelevant to your goal, but it was something that made them sad, you would say something comforting. That probably wouldn't happen now; your body would be silent. But if it's relevant, you might ask for more detail but there wouldn't be any comforting tone to your voice. (Unless, maybe, your brain had enough knowledge that imitating that tone would help achieve the goal faster.)

Alyska · November 4, 2015

What if something like a Toa could still use any remaining elemental power they had at the time of death, but lacked the ability to replenish that energy like they could in life? That would be in keeping with the whole "keep going until the life energy runs out" thing.

And as for the "more useful masks" argument, some Toa can access suvas, allowing them to switch out the undeath mask with a more situationally appropriate one when needed. Though that raises the question of whether the mask can store energy from multiple wearers over time, and whether the energy from one being can be transferred to another.

Rahkshi Lalonde · November 4, 2015

I dunno bones, with all this extra after-info you've kinda dragged this from "least useful mask" into the territory of "Deus Mask Machina" which is, imo, no better. :0

**bonesiii** · November 5, 2015

Uh, no, RL -- DEM refers to something coming out of the blue that the character didn't earn and that doesn't fit in the world to rescue them unexpectedly. This they have to seek out -- if they're Toa, risking rejection by others -- and spend time charging up. Then it does something it's perfectly reasonable to expect Bionicle powers to be able to do, with two limits. (More than most masks.)

If you can warp the definition of DEM so much even that goes under it, then so is the Hau's shield appearing when you needed it. (Or so is the Pirates of the Caribbean undeath. Besides, who says they actually succeed in defeating a bazillion Gadunka? All that's guaranteed is what's been described about the conditions needed to keep you going. If one bites your head off, you fail.)

The problem with your logic, going back to the original post (as I should have mentioned but forgot ) is that you call the lunch the "played straight" goal. Why would anybody want to see that as their main objective when the scenario clearly said defeating Makuta was the main objective?

You know obtaining any goal has smaller goals along the way, right?

Like if you are going for an object across the room, you have to take one step first. By your apparent reasoning, the very first goal, no matter how small, becomes the main goal. That just doesn't make sense.

Besides, we don't know that the dead body even need lunch anymore, since that's nutrition to keep the muscles working and the mask can animate those. And come on -- you really think that as you're dying and switching to Undeath that you charged up for so long with the intent of using it to stop Makuta, you're suddenly going to think, "But now I just want my dead body to eat lunch -- forget about Makuta!" Most likely in this scenario the body would just forget about the lunch, but even if they do need it, it's just a step along the way.

Alyska, that could work. I think it would overcomplicate the description for canon, though. I would leave that open to fan interpretation.

As for the transfer of energy, if that is possible, it certainly opens the door for some treachery -- somebody could spend a long time charging the mask, only to have it stolen and used by somebody else (maybe their own enemy, heh). But we never did establish that either way. I tend to think it's possible, because where else would the energy go? If it isn't, it would suggest it stores multiple "partitions" of energy and has a personal lock on each one, and we didn't put anything in the wording like that. :shrugs:

Edited November 5, 2015 by bonesiii

Alyska · November 5, 2015

Could be worse than that. Some villain could keep a bunch of Matoran slaves, force them to wear this mask, harvest their energy for centuries, and then put the masks on his more-powerful servants for an army of warriors that didn't stop when you killed them, without having to drain the warriors themselves much.

Rahkshi Lalonde · November 5, 2015

I dunno, I just know i walked into this topic having read it was a mask that reanimatedyou upon death, for a limited time, to complete one task.

sounds balanced, but horribly useless.

but now you're trying to present it as a mask that can be put on in the nick of time (whike oddly saying it's for times when a hau, kualsi, or calix wouldn't help you despite all of these requiring similar levels of foresight, but whatever.) to reamnimate you into, not a walking-dead shambler like i initially assumed, but a full-capacity undead Toa, who'se only stated weakness is that you know he's probably gonna hafta drop dead some year around here.

the real kicker is though, this still doesn't cover the fla i initially brought up, the fact that when you're first coming back, right after you died, you're probably still near the thing/person that killed you! (unless you died by falling off a cliff, but that's not very Toa-like) which means there is still nothing stopping htem from just taking the undead Toa's head off again.

and with all this, you still try to compare this mix of glaringly overpowered and underpowered traits to what is probably the simplelest mask in all of Bionicle? the mask of bubble-shields?

i still stand in saying Saygers decision to make up ridic masks when there were 28 perfectly usable mask designs was a bad idea, and all the powers later tacked on to those masks were in similar poor judegement to have quick-checked by an author who, to my knowledege, really didin't care much what he was letting through, like this one. :t

**bonesiii** · November 6, 2015

Alyska, well, amend that to Toa or something... probably... because I doubt Matoran could charge it up. I suppose that one's debatable, though.

I dunno, I just know i walked into this topic having read it was a mask that reanimatedyou upon death, for a limited time, to complete one task.

That's cool and all, but we've cleared up that misconception already, so why are you still going back to it? That was never the intent.

sounds balanced, but horribly useless.

That makes no sense -- if it's "horribly useless" then it isn't balanced. What definition of balance are you using if not that?

but now you're trying to present it

Um, RL? You're making it sound like this is something new. If you read somebody else adding the "one goal only no matter how small" idea (or something to that effect), that was the new thing that we never said. And I've never seen anybody say it but you.

Most of your other points I've already answered; to review:

-I don't think it's odd that in Bionicle an instant sniper-headshot type of death is unlikely. They would happen, but there's plenty of room for death by poison etc.

-I get why people might assume a "shambling" type of undeath, but I keep mentioning Pirates because that shows that the concept of undeath doesn't at all require that, and that was evidently accepted just fine given the movie's popularity.

-Again, still being near who killed you goes both ways -- you can surprise them with a revenge blow after they might let down their guard, thinking they won. It all depends on the situation.

-I don't see it as a flaw that what happens, happens with mask powers and they don't magically ensure nothing bad ever happens to make them fail (like Hau having that weakness). It's more realistic and more interesting when you don't know for sure how things will turn out and there's room to think "what changes if THIS happens versus THAT?" That would be bad storytelling.

So again it comes back to -- you can't have it both ways; it can't both be a flaw that it's not overpowered because it has a weakness, yet also be a flaw if it stops some bad things so it's not useless. That's how you get balance, my friend.

-I think things like Pakari are much simpler than Hau, as they haven't sparked so much question about the details, like whether the MNOG portrayal that you can still get hit from behind while the shield's up is canon or not. So, pretty bad example to say Hau is one of the simplest...

But again, if you want to ignore all the questions and details and say it's simple just because you can sum it up with "bubble shield", then Undeath is as simple as its name.

I'm not sure why we're talking about Sayger all of a sudden, but actually, although most of what Sayger did was pretty awful, that was one of his smarter decisions, because statistically it wasn't plausible that every new Matoran we met just happened to have one of the few masks we've happened to see on a Toa's face. (And whoever made the mask that became Undeath made a good choice there too -- that wasn't Sayger, as cleared up earlier here.)

Edited November 6, 2015 by bonesiii

Rahkshi Lalonde · November 6, 2015

most of that is just stuff you've said before rephrased so answering it would be repeating myself, so i would just be rephrasing and i'm not down for that but.

-Again, still being near who killed you goes both ways -- you can surprise them with a revenge blow after they might let down their guard, thinking they won. It all depends on the situation.

Who, in all of Bionicle, where masks are so important, lets their guard down on someone wearing the Mask of Undeath?

that's why i brought that up as it's main weakness, you're wearing a mask that brings you back once, obviously your opponent is going to shoot/stab/poison you at least twice as long as they know you're wearing that thing.

and i honestly can't find another mask with such a glaring issue as that one has. :0

**bonesiii** · November 6, 2015

But I haven't seen you answer those points in a way that works. Most of your previous post rehashed points I'd already answered and you'd left hanging before...

To letting down your guard, say you stab somebody, it's a fatal blow, and you turn away (say you're in a battle and there are other foes to worry about). They switch to it at the last second, and stab you back.

Or, you threw everything you had into finally winning that tiring swordfight, but even after you should have won, your enemy is still going. Don't even need to turn your back -- now he's still fighting, and the number of ways to stop him has shrunk. Eventually you slip and he gets you.

obviously your opponent is going to shoot/stab/poison you at least twice as long as they know you're wearing that thing

Which is why it's bad luck to wear and why if you do go for it because you care enough about your goal, you wear it only when you're pretty sure you're safe (so they don't know you have it until it's too late).

And once again, you're arguing both upsides and downsides. All that accomplishes is showing a balance, RL. You need to pick one and prove only that to show imbalance. It has both strengths and weaknesses, like any power. Even a simple power like Pakari does (a limit to just how strong it makes you).

Look, there's a really easy solution here. Instead of yoyoing between it's overpowered, no it's useless, no over, no under, just say "yes" to all of it, it's both weak and strong, depending on the circumstances -- like any other power.

Edited November 6, 2015 by bonesiii

Rahkshi Lalonde · November 6, 2015

yoyoing?

I'm not flipping between "too strong" and "useless" i have listed those as two sperate things on multiple occasions,

the "too strong" is what i'm saying about your idealization of it, where it can be put on and, bing! you're safe!

the truth is it's really the world's least useful mask because, again, it brings you back once and you need to sacrifice another, potentially lifesaving mask power to even use it. (where the "use" here is letting yourself die, not too smart tbh.)

obviously your opponent is going to shoot/stab/poison you at least twice as long as they know you're wearing that thing
Which is why it's bad luck to wear and why if you do go for it because you care enough about your goal, you wear it only when you're pretty sure you're safe (so they don't know you have it until it's too late).

and then there's this. i don't get this.

the mask only operates when you die, which means there's both no need and no reason to ever where it "when you're safe" what does that even mean? (i'm excluding chargeup time because of course that's not what i'm talking about here.)

The 1st Shadow · November 6, 2015

One of the things that really bugs me at this point (something RL touched upon a few posts back) was that other masks are far more useful in combat, and the MoU is only useful once you've actually died.

Think about it. Say your normal mask is a Kualsi. You're skilled in getting out of bad situations out of habit. But you've been charging the MoU for the last few months. Why, exactly? Do you KNOW you're going to die? Do you know the EXACT moment of your death? Do you know you're not going to die from being beheaded or having your brains blown out?

For the mask to be useful, you have to know when your death is coming and switch to it beforehand. If you're still wearing your Kualsi or Garai or whatever during the moment of your apparently foreseen death, how do you know you'll have the mental capacity to summon it?

Point is, you'd have to summon the mask before you die. If you knew you were about to be killed, then a Hau or Kualsi would be far more efficient. The killing blow instead hits a shield or passes through the space you occupied only moments before.

If you have no idea when or how your death is coming, why not focus more on using other powers or skills to survive?

My problem with it is that it requires too much foresight for anyone to really have. If you know you're gonna die, you do something about it. If you have no idea you're gonna die, how would you know to do anything about it?

**Shadow Destroyer** · November 6, 2015

You were the one who proposed this mask idea, right Bonesii?

My main problem with this topic is that you've been blindly defending this mask the entire topic, and criticizing other people's arguments, that are frankly much better put together than yours. People stated that the mask was useless, and then you came up with a whole new set of rules to instead make the mask way more powerful than it ever should be.

Please try to see this from our perspective. If I had proposed a mask like this, I'm sure you would've been one of the people pointing out its flaws, and I would be happy that you would be doing so. I could therefore fix those flaws, and make a mask that deserves being labelled as canon. This one, so far, is far too convoluted to be. (It's a real shame that it is.)

Regitnui · November 6, 2015

OK, if the description said "Allows you to complete your last quest" instead of "last objective", RL can't rules-lawyer it into killing you after opening a door. Similarly, nobody ever said that the mask turns you into a shambler-undead, just that it keeps you alive despite brain death. Finally, it's immoral, so a Toa wouldn't use it anyway, unless they're like Lesovikk and don't consider themselves Toa anymore.

Going back to basics, rather than picking holes in increasingly complex arguments like a Creationist trying to undo centuries of science with their objection to being called an animal, this mask is fine. It's spooky, strange, faintly disgusting, and precisely what it's supposed to do. Why are you getting up in arms against a mask that is at most a footnote and a side-story?

Timageness · November 6, 2015

Well, people do have the capacity to pull off some crazy feats while they are dying due to adrenaline, so switching masks shouldn't be an entirely unreasonable feat if you've still got some time left before you eventually clock out.

The way I see it, it's still usefull as a failsafe in the event that your injuries are beyond healing, though you're only going to get one use out of it, since it only works when you're dead. It should also be noted that Matoro was put in a similar situation when he donned the Ignika (as in he only got to activate it once before dying permanently, though due to the nature of his death, he wasn't revived by the Red Star), and each Mask of Elemental Energy only carries one use within them before they essentially become little more than wall decorations, yet they too have their uses as well.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Timageness

The 1st Shadow · November 6, 2015

Well, people do have the capacity to pull off some crazy feats while they are dying due to adrenaline, so switching masks shouldn't be an entirely unreasonable feat if you've still got some time left before you eventually clock out.

You misunderstood my post. Have you ever been in a stressful situation? Since the answer is most likely "yes," can you say that you were fully coherent at that time?

Let me give a personal example. I was once climbing a tree out over a river to get a good picture of the scenery (yes, it was stupid, but let's ignore that for now ). Before I could get comfortable enough to take the picture, the branch I was using for support snapped, and I fell a good 20-something feet onto the rocks on the bank of the river. On my way down, I was indeed filled with adrenaline, but I was hardly coherent enough to grab a branch to stop my fall, or to twist my body to lessen the impact. Obviously, I survived, but was seriously injured.

Now, let's look at some more scenarios.

1. Your opponent stabs you through the chest. You're as good as dead, but you're kinda panicked, too.

2. You get caught in a deadly explosion. In that chaos, you don't have time to think about switching masks.

3. you're sinking in lava and there's no way you can get out or get help. What's the point of summoning the mask?

4. You're a Makuta using the mask, and someone stabs you. Your essence floats out and you can't even use a mask.

But why am I going over all this? As far as we know, Toa are the only ones that have Suvas from which to summon masks from afar. Since beings like Brutaka and the Barraki's races likely didn't use Suvas, they wouldn't have been able to summon a mask, so they would have to carry the thing on their person. And if it;s that important to you, why would you carry a mask like that into a battle that you're most likely going to die in? There's a huge possibility that it'll get busted, rendering it useless.

So, the ones who can swap it out, wouldn't use it. The ones who would use it, don't have a safe way to carry it. And in the heat of battle, in your dying moment (assuming you die very quickly) there's no reason anyone in the MU would ever have reason to use it. If there's no need for something, why would it be made in the first place?

(And don't say anything about drowning. Because if you couldn't get your fully-functional body to swim to shore, I seriously doubt a sluggish, half-competent version of yourself would be able to drag itself through mud and slippery rocks to reach land.)

**bonesiii** · November 6, 2015

I'm not flipping between "too strong" and "useless" i have listed those as two sperate things on multiple occasions

? Isn't that what yo-yoing means?

the "too strong" is what i'm saying about your idealization of it, where it can be put on and, bing! you're safe!

Uh, that's a clear strawman, RL. I just finished saying that's NOT the case. :blink:

the truth is it's really the world's least useful mask because, again, it brings you back once and you need to sacrifice another, potentially lifesaving mask power to even use it.

I agree that is a weakness. But again, it's a logical weakness and it is balanced by other things, like now being harder to kill.

the mask only operates when you die, which means there's both no need and no reason to ever where it "when you're safe" what does that even mean? (i'm excluding chargeup time

That's the only reason you wear it while alive, so why would you exclude that? Wearing it while alive is the chargeup time.

One of the things that really bugs me at this point (something RL touched upon a few posts back) was that other masks are far more useful in combat, and the MoU is only useful once you've actually died.

And that's been answered -- if you bother to get this mask, it's probably your second mask, and you probably got a Suva, so in the battle you use your other mask, until you realize you're dying because something happened that that didn't stop. Simple.

you've been charging the MoU for the last few months. Why, exactly? Do you KNOW you're going to die?

Why not? Do you KNOW you're not?

For the mask to be useful, you have to know when your death is coming and switch to it beforehand.

I agree this is arguably a problem with the approved description, and would not have been necessary to it. But on the other hand, it also means it isn't overpowered, and as discussed already, instant death in Bionicle is rare. It's also part of why it was one of the taboo masks, fitting to something Karzahni likes. Realistically, not every power mixed will happen to be ideal.

If you have no idea when or how your death is coming, why not focus more on using other powers or skills to survive?

Indeed, why not? That's exactly what I'm asking you. It still seems you're saying that just because somebody has Undeath, they DON'T focus on their other mask(s), but I've said several times they would, and it's mentioned in the description.

Shadow Destroyer, that post was massively unfair and borderlines on flame. They are making arguments that do not in my judgement make sense, and I am pointing out why and giving them every opportunity to explain, if I'm wrong, why I'm wrong. I feel that they are arguing in good faith and appreciate the effort. It's quite another thing to insultingly dismiss all my points simply because I proposed it, without addressing them! If you think you see a good argument why the mask doesn't work, please focus on explaining that reason, not on accusation.

Not all the arguments have been bad, though. Some point out legitimate downsides, but they have mostly been ones we were aware of and are balanced out by the upsides that both me and others are also pointing out. Anyways, I do appreciate that you're trying to support them, and I forgive the... questionable word choice.

Just please try to relax and look at it from my perspective too, or better yet from an objective one that judges the mask by the same standards as other masks within the vast variety we were told could exist with protodermic powers.

I appreciate the wise call to see others' perspectives, though. I always try hard to do that; that's why I ask questions to try to learn more about them. And remember this mask has been fairly popular before, so it would be wise for you to abandon assumptions that everybody including me would react just like you. :shrugs: If that was true, I would have rejected the idea before proposing it, although it's still possible I could have missed a logical reason why it doesn't work -- hence the need to carefully discuss the scenarios out.

1. Your opponent stabs you through the chest. You're as good as dead, but you're kinda panicked, too.

2. You get caught in a deadly explosion. In that chaos, you don't have time to think about switching masks.

3. you're sinking in lava and there's no way you can get out or get help. What's the point of summoning the mask?

4. You're a Makuta using the mask, and someone stabs you. Your essence floats out and you can't even use a mask.

1) That could easily happen, yes. Would depend on the character and how much knowing you have that mask and being focused on that mission (that you are presumably obsessed with since you bothered to get the mask), so have less reason to be panicked than somebody who doesn't have it.

2) That would be one of the sniper equivalents where this mask fails.

3) Indeed, it would be pointless in this situation. As would having the Hau on when you're ambushed, or the Pakari when a light touch is what's needed, etc.

4) Already discussed earlier; basically, I agree.

Now what did that prove? You listed three, possibly four of the situations that we all agree are possible where the mask can fail you. No mask covers all situations, or if it does it's probably overpowered! We've already listed situations where it WOULD work, and pointed out that in Bionicle those are probably a bit more likely.

Even so, the mask was always "just in case" -- not only just in case you die, but in case you died in a way where it WOULD have worked and by not getting the mask you did less than you could have done to make sure that goal gets accomplished.

So we're back where we started.

As far as we know, Toa are the only ones that have Suvas from which to summon masks from afar. Since beings like Brutaka and the Barraki's races likely didn't use Suvas

That's true (as far as I know), but they could also carry an extra mask in a backpack as shown before in Bionicle, and some species that can wear and use masks don't normally wear them anyways, so if those ones did wear this one sometimes while alone and safe, it doesn't really change much.

Even ones like Brutaka could surely keep it in their home, in case they end up dying from slow poison or the like, and charge it up only there, though that's admittedly much less likely.

Edited November 6, 2015 by bonesiii

The 1st Shadow · November 6, 2015

Even ones like Brutaka could surely keep it in their home, in case they end up dying from slow poison or the like, and charge it up only there, though that's admittedly much less likely.

"Wait, don't kill me just yet. I need to run home and grab something."

*takes off for an hour or two*

*returns to site of battle, wearing MoU*

"Okay, now you can kill me!"

If you don't have the mask on your person, it's useless. And if you kept it in a backpack, what happens if your opponent slams you into the ground, or tries to crush you with a big rock? You run the risk of breaking the mask, making it useless. And since only Toa have Suvas, and it's a mask Toa wouldn't want to use, there's a very small window of opportunities for anyone to ever actually have use of the mask. So small, you might as well just knock your would-be-killer out cold with a Pakari-powered blow to the face before he even has a chance to harm you.

Zox Tomana · November 6, 2015

Well, people do have the capacity to pull off some crazy feats while they are dying due to adrenaline, so switching masks shouldn't be an entirely unreasonable feat if you've still got some time left before you eventually clock out.

You misunderstood my post. Have you ever been in a stressful situation? Since the answer is most likely "yes," can you say that you were fully coherent at that time?

Let me give a personal example. I was once climbing a tree out over a river to get a good picture of the scenery (yes, it was stupid, but let's ignore that for now ). Before I could get comfortable enough to take the picture, the branch I was using for support snapped, and I fell a good 20-something feet onto the rocks on the bank of the river. On my way down, I was indeed filled with adrenaline, but I was hardly coherent enough to grab a branch to stop my fall, or to twist my body to lessen the impact. Obviously, I survived, but was seriously injured.

Were you trained to fall out of a tree? I highly doubt it. However, if you'd spent your life falling from various things at various heights, you might have been much more capable of doing something to lessen the damage you were about to receive.

Everyday, all sorts of people face scenarios in which quick thinking under duress is required. Many of these scenarios involve life and death. My favorite would be medical, where an paramedic (for example) has been trained over the course of several months to quickly read an EKG and decide if the rhythm is Supraventricular or just Ventricular tachycardia. One is treated with chemical cardioversion (generally) and the other (classically) with electrical cardioversion. Better example: the medical director receives as call in the middle of the night, two paramedics are treating an old woman with asthma-like respiratory distress. They can't get her O2 saturation back up and can't break the asthma attack. Medical director, without seeing the patient, with a lady asphyxiating, has to advise them according to his medical training and knowledge in order to keep her alive. If this was any other person called, they would not have been able to give the (surprisingly simple) answer about how to take care of the woman in the pre-hospital setting. The doctor, however, has the training and knowledge to act and think under this kind of duress. (This is a true story, btw, though the doc did not mention what time he received the phone call)

I won't really touch on soldiers, I'm far from combat trained in any way, but doesn't seem to make sense that this idea of training would naturally extend to people whose job it is to be in combat situations? For a Toa who operates with multiple masks and who fights enough with a dangerous enough goal that this kind of mask is needed....why wouldn't they have the mental conditioning required to make that kind of decision? Will all people who use this mask succeed in making that decision in time? Probably not, but plenty probably will, I think.

And since only Toa have Suvas, and it's a mask Toa wouldn't want to use, there's a very small window of opportunities for anyone to ever actually have use of the mask. So small, you might as well just knock your would-be-killer out cold with a Pakari-powered blow to the face before he even has a chance to harm you.

Correction: we've only ever seen Toa use Suva. At that rate, we've only ever seen the Toa Mata/Nuva use Suva. I may have missed it, but was the entire idea of other beings using such devices excluded? Also, if you can knock out your opponent so easily...then of course this mask wouldn't have use in that battle. As far as I've ever been aware me it hasn't ever been meant as a mask you'd need if your battles were easy. The mask comes into play when you CAN'T get that knock-out blow in. Edited November 6, 2015 by Zox Tomana

**bonesiii** · November 6, 2015

Addition I forgot to mention to previous -- [Edit: And I see I was Ninja'd by Zox lol ] my first thought at the panic point was that it probably depends on experience. Those experienced at battle tend not to react that way to serious danger; they're more likely to focus on tactics in the moment. It may happen even to them, though. It's not like I've died a few times to know what it's like personally.

To your latest post, not much really to add. It seems like you don't realize that I am aware there are downsides and situations where something happens to make things like that fail, but I've been saying so all along, so that's... kind of puzzling.

(For that matter, what happens if you're a Matoran and somebody smashes your mask? Well... you go into a coma and maybe they kill you. Ow.)

This kind of vast array of "there's this but then there's this" is exactly why I love powers like this -- it's far better for stories than powers so basic we really pretty much know what will happen (a possible downside, from a storyteller's perspective with the Pakari, for example -- there's only really so much "grunt and lift heavy thing" that's entertaining... depending on if you do it right, heh). I may be misreading, but I've been getting the impression in several of your posts that you haven't realized that. So from my perspective, this very sort of discussion that can go back and forth on the mask working in one situation but not in another proves the mask power was a good choice, as it opens up story potential.

Edited November 6, 2015 by bonesiii

Timageness · November 6, 2015

Well, people do have the capacity to pull off some crazy feats while they are dying due to adrenaline, so switching masks shouldn't be an entirely unreasonable feat if you've still got some time left before you eventually clock out.
You misunderstood my post. Have you ever been in a stressful situation? Since the answer is most likely "yes," can you say that you were fully coherent at that time?

Let me give a personal example. I was once climbing a tree out over a river to get a good picture of the scenery (yes, it was stupid, but let's ignore that for now ). Before I could get comfortable enough to take the picture, the branch I was using for support snapped, and I fell a good 20-something feet onto the rocks on the bank of the river. On my way down, I was indeed filled with adrenaline, but I was hardly coherent enough to grab a branch to stop my fall, or to twist my body to lessen the impact. Obviously, I survived, but was seriously injured.

Now, let's look at some more scenarios.
1. Your opponent stabs you through the chest. You're as good as dead, but you're kinda panicked, too.
2. You get caught in a deadly explosion. In that chaos, you don't have time to think about switching masks.
3. you're sinking in lava and there's no way you can get out or get help. What's the point of summoning the mask?
4. You're a Makuta using the mask, and someone stabs you. Your essence floats out and you can't even use a mask.

But why am I going over all this? As far as we know, Toa are the only ones that have Suvas from which to summon masks from afar. Since beings like Brutaka and the Barraki's races likely didn't use Suvas, they wouldn't have been able to summon a mask, so they would have to carry the thing on their person. And if it;s that important to you, why would you carry a mask like that into a battle that you're most likely going to die in? There's a huge possibility that it'll get busted, rendering it useless.

So, the ones who can swap it out, wouldn't use it. The ones who would use it, don't have a safe way to carry it. And in the heat of battle, in your dying moment (assuming you die very quickly) there's no reason anyone in the MU would ever have reason to use it. If there's no need for something, why would it be made in the first place?

(And don't say anything about drowning. Because if you couldn't get your fully-functional body to swim to shore, I seriously doubt a sluggish, half-competent version of yourself would be able to drag itself through mud and slippery rocks to reach land.)

Even ones like Brutaka could surely keep it in their home, in case they end up dying from slow poison or the like, and charge it up only there, though that's admittedly much less likely.

"Wait, don't kill me just yet. I need to run home and grab something."

*takes off for an hour or two*

*returns to site of battle, wearing MoU*

"Okay, now you can kill me!"

If you don't have the mask on your person, it's useless. And if you kept it in a backpack, what happens if your opponent slams you into the ground, or tries to crush you with a big rock? You run the risk of breaking the mask, making it useless. And since only Toa have Suvas, and it's a mask Toa wouldn't want to use, there's a very small window of opportunities for anyone to ever actually have use of the mask. So small, you might as well just knock your would-be-killer out cold with a Pakari-powered blow to the face before he even has a chance to harm you.

Zox pretty much explained what I was going to say regarding this point, but allow me to add some of my own insight to your examples.

1. Depends entirely where you were stabbed. If your heart's gone, then I agree, but it would still take some time for you to croak from drowning in your own blood if you were only hit in the lung, so in that situation, it's still entirely feasible to pull a mask-swith before you die.

2. As previously stated, that's a situation where the mask probably wouldn't work, as the explosion would likely kill you instantly or at least render you unconcious before you bled out.

3. Another situation where it wouldn't work, as the lava would burn through your corpse anyway.

4. Post-Antidermis Makuta would have no reason to use the mask on themselves, as physical wounds don't exactly apply to their essence and the mask itself could only be attached to their armor.

Something else I'd like to point out is that any battle contains the possibility of death, even something as simple as a training exercise, which means that you would have ample reason to carry it on your person to begin with. That's just how battles are.

I will concede that the BS01 description of a Suva is "a shrine dedicated to Toa," however, so it sounds highly unlikely that they would be used by non-Toa. Then again, the Vortixx reverse-engineered Rhotuka Launchers from living beings, and the Nynrah Ghosts did something similar with the Fohrok, so there could potentially be some sort of artificial equivalent floating around for other species to use that we just never got to see within the parameters of the main story.

Edited November 6, 2015 by Timageness

Zox Tomana · November 6, 2015

Even ones like Brutaka could surely keep it in their home, in case they end up dying from slow poison or the like, and charge it up only there, though that's admittedly much less likely.
"Wait, don't kill me just yet. I need to run home and grab something."

*takes off for an hour or two*

*returns to site of battle, wearing MoU*

"Okay, now you can kill me!"

I'd like to make a special point to note that the quote to which you are making a mocking rebuttal refers to a separate situation than the one in your rebuttal. Bones specifically mentions slow-acting poison. Not battle. Seems unreasonable to me to not respond in the terms of the original proposition.

For example, on the point of keeping it at your house: it would seem to me that, if a being did not have access to Suva-esque technology, the use of this mask would be made substantially more difficult. The use of the mask presupposes being able to don it just before death after having charged it up. While you might take it with you on a trip, you'd have to hide it at each destination in order to ensure its safety, and then hope you can get to it once needed. Either that or you have to keep it on your person at all times. While we can't discount such storage from backpacks to modifications of armor, the best and safest use of the mask rests on having a Suva-type storage system allowing you to remotely switch masks. That's a major downside to trying to use this mask: you have to seriously baby it to a degree to keep it "nearby", safe, and readily useful. The upside is the post-death pursuit of your goal, but I feel the energy and effort put towards the use of this mask by a being who doesn't have a psuedo-suva (a psueva?) would probably seem like a waste of effort when it comes to trying to accomplish something.

The 1st Shadow · November 6, 2015

Even ones like Brutaka could surely keep it in their home, in case they end up dying from slow poison or the like, and charge it up only there, though that's admittedly much less likely.
"Wait, don't kill me just yet. I need to run home and grab something."

*takes off for an hour or two*

*returns to site of battle, wearing MoU*

"Okay, now you can kill me!"

I'd like to make a special point to note that the quote to which you are making a mocking rebuttal refers to a separate situation than the one in your rebuttal. Bones specifically mentions slow-acting poison. Not battle. Seems unreasonable to me to not respond in the terms of the original proposition.

This part. Slow-acting poison, yes I got that. But what if you live on, say, Nynrah and you were doing battle on the Southern Continent. Would you really have time to travel all the way home to get the mask? That's the part I was making fun of. You forget how big their universe is. If a certain quest takes you far from home, and while on that quest, someone poisons you... Do you really have time to get home before the poison takes you out?

As to the Suva thing, it's only ever been confirmed that Toa use them, so we can't make an exception for an uncertainty.

As to the panic thing you talked about, I noticed that you were talking about doctors saving someone ELSE'S life, not their own. They're trained to save other lives. Ever received a serious injury and gone immediately into shock? Imagine getting your arm torn off and then getting stabbed in the vitals. Sure, you'd have a few moments of life left, but odds are, you'd go into shock first.

Point is, the mask requires too many variables to actually be of any use to anyone.

Edited November 6, 2015 by T1Shadow: The Artisan

**bonesiii** · November 6, 2015

But what if you live on, say, Nynrah and you were doing battle on the Southern Continent. Would you really have time to travel all the way home to get the mask?

That's not really what I had in mind by "home". I guess if they were dying slowly enough, but I see this as a mask obsessive types are more likely to have, so they would probably keep it nearby at all times. :shrugs: If they're traveling, then the person in that scenario would be storing it at whatever temporary home they're using wherever they are.

I agree we should only expect Suva to be used by Toa (and Turaga).

The bottom line is, the mask works as an extra precaution in addition to other masks, which makes success more likely. That was always the intent and there's really no room for any of the criticisms to change that, especially not by going over the basics that were givens like that sometimes it would fail and that unlike most masks it doesn't help you while you're alive. It was intended for fairly rare situations (since both death and people who would want to use it are somewhat rare), but ones that could have an unusually high priority -- a vital quest, etc. So far nobody has even really tried to deal with this in their attempts at a criticism, but that's what a criticism mainly needs to do.

It also does the one thing none of those other masks do -- keeps you going after those other masks fail you. Let's face it, Pakari, Hau, doesn't matter, they all can fail you, and once you die, they don't help you anymore. This one does. (Well... it helps the people you were trying to help, if you succeed in your quest. )

Sure, it's not guaranteed to help you after death, but Hau, etc. are guaranteed to be worthless after death, on their own. No power guarantees success.

And I've already pointed out why deaths where this probably would help are fairly common. I'm not sure if it's the majority or a large minority, but certainly far more than enough to justify the mask.

As for "many variables" -- there's many variables to what could hit your Hau's shield too. That alone proves nothing.

Edited November 6, 2015 by bonesiii

The 1st Shadow · November 7, 2015

But you still haven't answered my main question: Where the heck does the mask come in?

Let's say I'm a Toa who has the audacity to use such a mask, and I have it in my Suva. I receive a fatal blow or am poisoned. We've seen Toa go into some form of shock before (Nokama's near-death experience at the stinger of the Rahi Nui), which suggests that, like humans, they would be incapable of using their thoughts to do anything more than focus on staying alive. Since thought and concentration are what summons a mask from a Suva, we can rule out that a dying Toa would ever be able to summon it.

Let's say I'm some other being who kept the mask nearby or somehow kept it in an armored backpack that might hinder me in battle. First of all, a hindrance in battle is a stupid idea, so we can rule out the mask being on hand, meaning you'd need to travel to where the mask is, even if that's just a few dozen feet. Assuming all MU beings function the same way, then the act of dying would be draining on their physical and mental resources. Plus, if you've been that seriously injured, how can you expect to get to the mask?

On the topic of poisoning. If the effects are not immediate, then how would you know you'd been poisoned until it was too late? Some poisons might just make you feel ill at first. Illness isn't an uncommon thing, so for all you know, it could pass. If the poison worked immediately, then there's no point.

All that said, there's no way the mask could ever actually be of use to anyone, unless someone else put the mask on your dead face for you. I just don't see any other way for it to work. And if you have a friend around to do that, why didn't they just step in and help stop whatever it was that killed you?

Another thing is, since Toa wouldn't use it, most likely, that kinda limits your options, since there's only so many species out there that can use mask powers.

Who would use it? How would they use it? How useful would it be? Masks are like any product we sell. If you can't answer those three big questions, you can't present something as marketable. Your answers so far have been:

Who would use it?--"Only a small handful of dying or dead people."

How would they use it?--"I dunno. Something might happen, maybe."

How useful would it be?--"Turns you into a sluggish, half-capable version of your former self that only fulfills one goal after you've died."

Does that sound marketable to you? Since the answer is "no," why even make such a thing in the first place?

Seriously. if you were to talk to the military, and present a few options (a device that can shield against forseen attacks, a chemical that increases a soldier's strength or reflexes, a device that can teleport you behind enemy lines, and/or a special elixir that might resurrect you temporarily, IF you can somehow get to it and get it in your mouth), which one(s) do you think they would realistically see as useful?

Edited November 7, 2015 by T1Shadow: The Artisan

**bonesiii** · November 7, 2015

But you still haven't answered my main question: Where the heck does the mask come in?

?? How haven't I? Or how is it not clear right from the description? The mask comes in when you die, but not instantly, and when you have the means to get it onto your face in time. What is unclear about this? Whether that happens in any situation needs to be thought out by somebody writing the story with it. Sometimes it doesn't work, others it does.

we can rule out that a dying Toa would ever be able to summon it

Uh, no, not at all. :blink: How is that anything but a circular assumption invented precisely because you don't want it to work, for whatever reason? At least this time you do seem to be trying to do what you need to do -- show that it CANNOT EVER work, rather than merely that cases can happen where it doesn't. But this one is baseless, and frankly looks like grasping at straws. (And it's overzealous; you don't actually need to show "not ever" but close to it... or overpowered.)

We also might be able to test it.

Has the story ever had dying characters who use powers, mask or not (but esp. those) after they begin to die? I dunno offhand, but I highly, highly, highly, highly (you getdapichah!) doubt that LEGO meant to say powers become impossible once you start to die!

Re -- how would you know you were poisoned? Depends. If you're stung by something you know has a deadly poison and you can't get the cure or there is none (you would know this if others had died from it etc. -- same way we know about poison in this world!), you know, you know?

You do get "objectivity points", if you will, for suggesting one (albeit small) point against the negative, that a friend could put the mask on for you. But there really is no need, as if you got it, you would probably make sure you had the means to put it on, barring loss of limbs in the backpack case. (Although in that case, I could definitely see an ally putting it on for you, I suppose.)

Of course, we could have removed your confusion entirely by going with a version of the power that automatically activates and Suva-izes it to your face if you spent any time at all charging it up. I considered that, but rejected it as probably overpowered, and frankly less interesting.

It's already agreed that the immoral thing limits it. That was, again, intentional, and also applies to a large extent to all other immoral masks, since non-Toa mask users are rare anyways. The only real help I see for the anti- position here is that Makuta are major mask users but (after becoming gaseous at least) would probably have no use for this. But then there were only about a hundred of those and they're already hard to kill, so yeah.

Although this is probably the least limited of the immoral masks, since there's such an obvious reason for Toa to make this one exception when they have vital tasks, whereas other immoral masks like Crast could be imitated to a large extent by others like Levitation. And anyway, we all know (due to examples like Crast, and especially Matoro not tearing his Tryna off) that the "immoral" thing was more of a questionable tradition thing than something absolute.

This part needs quoted:

Your answers so far have been:

Who would use it?--"Only a small handful of dying or dead people."
How would they use it?--"I dunno. Something might happen, maybe."
How useful would it be?--"Turns you into a sluggish, half-capable version of your former self that only fulfills one goal after you've died."

1) Yeah, what of it? That's clearly intentional. (You left out the "high importance quest" part, though... Why?)

2) That's not even close to fair. I've given many specific examples, and you admitted you saw one in that very post! Anybody can imagine others.

3) Sluggish was RL's misconception; already answered. As for "half" capable, depends on if using other mask powers is "half" -- I dunno what to think on that one. Less capable in terms of powers, though, yeah (assuming you don't do the Vakama maskstack thing... which you might... :shrugs: ) And "one goal" was, again, not part of the canonically approved description; I'm unsure if Greg would consider that canon or not, and it's "your one main quest", so "one goal" is not the best description (it could lead to RL's other main misconception).

[Edit: About "half" re: mask powers, we haven't even discussed how likely it might be or not whether you might also prepare a tool power with your favorite power to use after death, or at least whatever tool power you can get your hands on that suffices. That's just as possible in Bionicle as mask powers (and even more common than masks; even Matoran can do that).]

Notice you changed each one of those to make them much more convenient for your position. That's a pretty standard red flag.

Edited November 7, 2015 by bonesiii

The 1st Shadow · November 7, 2015

Your answers so far have been:

Who would use it?--"Only a small handful of dying or dead people."
How would they use it?--"I dunno. Something might happen, maybe."
How useful would it be?--"Turns you into a sluggish, half-capable version of your former self that only fulfills one goal after you've died."
1) Yeah, what of it? That's clearly intentional. (You left out the "high importance quest" part, though... Why?)

2) That's not even close to fair. I've given many specific examples, and you admitted you saw one in that very post! Anybody can imagine others.

3) Sluggish was RL's misconception; already answered. As for "half" capable, depends on if using other mask powers is "half" -- I dunno what to think on that one. Less capable in terms of powers, though, yeah (assuming you don't do the Vakama maskstack thing... which you might... ) And "one goal" was, again, not part of the canonically approved description; I'm unsure if Greg would consider that canon or not, and it's "your one main quest", so "one goal" is not the best description (it could lead to RL's other main misconception).

[Edit: About "half" re: mask powers, we haven't even discussed how likely it might be or not whether you might also prepare a tool power with your favorite power to use after death, or at least whatever tool power you can get your hands on that suffices. That's just as possible in Bionicle as mask powers (and even more common than masks; even Matoran can do that).]

1. I left it out because lots of people go on important quests. Last I checked, all of the Nuva, most of the Mahri, and the entire Federation of Fear (minus the not-too clever Carapar) all came back very much alive. Highly important quest =/= death. So, only someone who expects to die would power it up, and only someone who is dying or already dead would have any functional use for it.

2. Can you name some, then? Because if they worked/made sense, I would have considered them. Unless you had it worded weirdly or buried amongst a huge chunk of text, I haven't seen anything.

3. Okay, sluggish was probably not the best word. The official description says" slows down their processing, making it harder to fight." Slowing down processing tells us that their brains are no longer fully functional. If that makes fighting more difficult, then we have to assume everything else requiring physical coordination has been limited, as well. "Physically limited," then. And what do you mean, "one goal wasn't part of the canon description?" It says "attempts to fulfill last objective the user had while living." Objective=goal. Last objective=singular goal. One goal.

And the way you present it sounds like it has to be a "big quest." I have to work to earn money to pay for things like food, utilities, etc. Say I died in a car accident on the way to work. Mask brings me back. My last thoughts would probably be of my family. What does the mask make me do, then? Go to work and earn another day's pay? Or do I go straight home and say goodbye to my family before collapsing on the floor? What counts as a "last objective?"

Rahkshi Lalonde · November 7, 2015

actually, 50% is p accurate, as a toa has two main supernatural powers: their Elemental powers, and their mask powers.

so the undead toa has 50% or less because they're limited to elemental powers, while they would have previously been pretty used to using their mask powers for a variety of obstacles, with this tihng forced on their face, they now lack a good chunk of ability. (plus they may be missing limbs or whatnot from their initial death so...)

on that note: you said the assumption it was a "shambler" was a misconception, and that they could perfomr feats and complete large tasks because of "the mask's connection to their mind" which makes me think you failed to realize what the pop-culture depiction of "undeath" is. which, if i need to say, is a brainless or near-brainless walking corpse, with less-than-stellar physical capabilities, do to, like, rigor mortis and worms and whatnot.

with that in mind, it's less of a "baseless assumption" and more of a logical conclusion when no further evidence is provied.

the reason i'm calling it too powerful (in your extended description of it) is that, simply, even the Tryna brought back these zombie-style undead, bainless puppets for the Tryna-user to use to their will, this one, however, you're implying brings back a perfectly capable, able-bodied, 100% toa/makuta/axonn/brutaka/vortixx/whatever. who can do anything their original incarnation can do, while also being theoretically harder to kill!

(the "weakness" of being hit in the head doesn't count because that kills a living being too.)

SO to retrace our steps here: short blurb says you come back as an undead to complete one goal, could be useless because that's a pretty pathetic powerset, OR could be far too useful, to the poi9nt of being broken, HOWEVER, it's still basically useless, because there is still no feasable time when you could switch masks to this, without your opponent seeing you're wearing this mask. :0

Zox Tomana · November 7, 2015

Even ones like Brutaka could surely keep it in their home, in case they end up dying from slow poison or the like, and charge it up only there, though that's admittedly much less likely.
"Wait, don't kill me just yet. I need to run home and grab something."

*takes off for an hour or two*

*returns to site of battle, wearing MoU*

"Okay, now you can kill me!"

I'd like to make a special point to note that the quote to which you are making a mocking rebuttal refers to a separate situation than the one in your rebuttal. Bones specifically mentions slow-acting poison. Not battle. Seems unreasonable to me to not respond in the terms of the original proposition.

This part. Slow-acting poison, yes I got that. But what if you live on, say, Nynrah and you were doing battle on the Southern Continent. Would you really have time to travel all the way home to get the mask? That's the part I was making fun of. You forget how big their universe is. If a certain quest takes you far from home, and while on that quest, someone poisons you... Do you really have time to get home before the poison takes you out?

As to the Suva thing, it's only ever been confirmed that Toa use them, so we can't make an exception for an uncertainty.

As to the panic thing you talked about, I noticed that you were talking about doctors saving someone ELSE'S life, not their own. They're trained to save other lives. Ever received a serious injury and gone immediately into shock? Imagine getting your arm torn off and then getting stabbed in the vitals. Sure, you'd have a few moments of life left, but odds are, you'd go into shock first.

Point is, the mask requires too many variables to actually be of any use to anyone.

<sarcasm> First, I'd like to thank you for addressing only the very first things I said and then totally ignoring that I went on to address, basically, the VERY point you bring up, but by addressing the specific idea of "leaving it at home" instead of bringing in a new situation. Concluding, in fact, that in absence of Suva technology use of the mask becomes substantially more difficult than it seems worthwhile. Yes, thank you for ignoring the majority of my post. </sarcasm>

Pointing out that only Toa have been seen using a Suva only further supports the very point I made: that the majority use of the mask involves a lot of presumed trouble due to the easily assumed absence of a Suva or Suva-like technology.

And regarding to only talking about doctors: I only spoke of medical scenarios because I have been medically trained, and am currently undergoing further medical training. It is the stuff I am familiar with.

But both Bones and I mentioned that such things can be extended to soldiers and to people who are trying to keep themselves alive. Did you miss that part? And as to the idea of instant shock and unconsciousness, did Bones not admit already that it is possible to have situations in which you would be unable to use the mask even if you have it ready to go? The idea is that "I have this mask ready to go if I can use it." It is a tool to have and to be used if/when possible. What if you're a Toa who is wearing an Akaku, but end up being surprised by an enemy against whom you need to use a Kakama to succeed. However, the enemy is too fast and keeps up such a pressing attack that you don't have time to switch? Is the Kakama useless? No. It is of no use to you in the THAT scenario, but it still has a use and a purpose. No one would argue that it didn't. The problem with the mask isn't that it can NEVER be used, or that is has NO USE. The problem is the difficulties we have observed in PROPERLY and USEFULLY using it. So how do you make that Kakama useful in that scenario? You apply your battle-training to do everything you can to get away for a moment and switch, instead of continuing the fight at a disadvantage.

Is everyone who receives a mortal wound going to be able to make the switch to MoU? No. Neither Bones nor I said that it would happen 100% of the time. But it is a leap too far to say it will happen 0% of the time, either. That's just a danger inherent to the use of any mask. Why would someone in the confusion of a battle be able to remember to switch on a Hau? Someone being forcefully drowned remember to switch to a Kaukau if they can't force themselves back above the water? Someone *wearing a Kualsi* remember to teleport away when the lava from a volcanic eruption is fast bearing down up them? Mask use can very easily be imagined to depend on presence of mind under extreme duress. Presence of mine to perform an action that is commonplace in the MU, at that. Mask use is practically bike-riding: you have to learn how to do it (how to balance, how to use the pedals, what speed you can/can't stay upright at), but it isn't something that is extremely difficult to do.

Edited November 7, 2015 by Zox Tomana

**bonesiii** · November 7, 2015

I left it out because lots of people go on important quests

I'll say more on this below, but first -- you made it look like you were summarizing my main answers, not what parts of the answers you agree with. By leaving it out, you create the impression of imbalance. It would have been better to fairly represent my answers and then reply.

Last I checked, all of the Nuva, most of the Mahri, and the entire Federation of Fear (minus the not-too clever Carapar) all came back very much alive. Highly important quest =/= death.

So you're back to "how do you know you'll die"? How is that an answer, since you also don't know you won't, and the mask is meant in case you do?

Can you name some, then?

Fatal stab, poison, drowning, overheating, disease. We could also just run through the ways characters have died in Bionicle (including ones who couldn't use mask powers, like Jaller's slow death by fear, or ones who had already achieved their destiny, like Lhikan's slow death after a powerful impact, since those methods of death could happen to a Toa etc.).

Cancer.

Fatal life energy drain.

I could go on and on, but really, does anybody actually have trouble thinking of these situations? I don't buy it, really.

Okay, sluggish was probably not the best word. The official description says" slows down their processing

Actually, I finally just looked up the original EM description, and "sluggish" actually did come from what I wrote there. My bad on that... but it doesn't help your view; it says "slightly" sluggish.

However, why I originally quoted this is because I did not recall this being in the official description (the one Greg approved), and just checked -- it's not there.

So this is left open to interpretation as far as canon goes. I certainly don't see it that way -- I don't know what I meant by "slightly sluggish", but I might have had in mind what I said about the mind not being commanded to do things irrelevant to the main goal.

On that topic, though, I don't see anything about the "main quest" in the original description either. Now I'm not sure where it came in. I know I came up with it to keep it from being overpowered if somebody charged it up for a LONG time (possible with the lifespans), but it may have been wrongly added to BS01 based on later clarifications intended for the EM. :shrugs:

The original did say "for several years or so", which does imply there's some kind of extra limit besides the one mentioned next of chargeup time. It may have been meant to be behind that wording, I don't recall. Regardless, Greg didn't approve that part, so this is all rather tangential...

actually, 50% is p accurate, as a toa has two main supernatural powers: their Elemental powers, and their mask powers.

Right, but I'm talking about weight of each one, not just how many there are, and that's not all that a Toa is anyways (they can accomplish a lot without using the powers anyways). He said "half-capable", not just "having half the number of powers".

on that note: you said the assumption it was a "shambler" was a misconception, and that they could perfomr feats and complete large tasks because of "the mask's connection to their mind" which makes me think you failed to realize what the pop-culture depiction of "undeath" is.

Pirates 1. Again. We've been over this.

Other portrayals vary too. I do agree it would have been better to clarify that that one wasn't in mind, though. (And since it wasn't, it's open to interpretation too -- but you were claiming it WAS the case, and that was never intended.)

short blurb says you come back as an undead to complete one goal, could be useless because that's a pretty pathetic powerset, OR could be far too useful

So, knowing what you know about mask powers in Bionicle, the logical thing to do is interpret it as intended to be balanced, in-between those things! Just like how the Akaku doesn't mention range (re: another current topic), so "short blurb" could mean you can see an atom in the next galaxy... but nobody reasonably interprets it that way because that would be inconsistent with Bionicle power limits shown so far.

Edited November 7, 2015 by bonesiii

The 1st Shadow · November 7, 2015

<sarcasm> First, I'd like to thank you for addressing only the very first things I said and then totally ignoring that I went on to address, basically, the VERY point you bring up, but by addressing the specific idea of "leaving it at home" instead of bringing in a new situation. Yes, thank you for ignoring the majority of my post. </sarcasm>
And regarding to only talking about doctors: I only spoke of medical scenarios because I have been medically trained, and am currently undergoing further medical training. It is the stuff I am familiar with.

But both Bones and I mentioned that such things can be extended to soldiers and to people who are trying to keep themselves alive. Did you miss that part? And as to the idea of instant shock and unconsciousness, did Bones not admit already that it is possible to have situations in which you would be unable to use the mask even if you have it ready to go? The idea is that "I have this mask ready to go if I can use it." It is a tool to have and to be used if/when possible. What if you're a Toa who is wearing an Akaku, but end up being surprised by an enemy against whom you need to use a Kakama to succeed. However, the enemy is too fast and keeps up such a pressing attack that you don't have time to switch? Is the Kakama useless? No. It is of no use to you in the THAT scenario, but it still has a use and a purpose. No one would argue that it didn't. The problem with the mask isn't that it can NEVER be used, or that is has NO USE. The problem is the difficulties we have observed in PROPERLY and USEFULLY using it. So how do you make that Kakama useful in that scenario? You apply your battle-training to do everything you can to get away for a moment and switch, instead of continuing the fight at a disadvantage.

Is everyone who receives a mortal wound going to be able to make the switch to MoU? No. Neither Bones nor I said that it would happen 100% of the time. But it is a leap too far to say it will happen 0% of the time, either. That's just a danger inherent to the use of any mask. Why would someone in the confusion of a battle be able to remember to switch on a Hau? Someone being forcefully drowned remember to switch to a Kaukau if they can't force themselves back above the water? Someone *wearing a Kualsi* remember to teleport away when the lava from a volcanic eruption is fast bearing down up them? Mask use can very easily be imagined to depend on presence of mind under extreme duress. Presence of mine to perform an action that is commonplace in the MU, at that. Mask use is practically bike-riding: you have to learn how to do it (how to balance, how to use the pedals, what speed you can/can't stay upright at), but it isn't something that is extremely difficult to do.

First, I'd like to point out that the rest of your post was already discussed, and I didn't feel it was necessary to discuss any further. No need to get huffy.

That's not the kind of experience you can translate to "in the heat of battle where it's YOUR problem." In your example, someone else is at stake, and you have plenty of tools and resources to help them. How does that have anything to do with a dying person trying to put on a mask they don't have on their immediate person?

You're assuming those situations happen often enough to make a difference. See, with your Kakama point, all you have to do is avoid attacks while you're (surprise, surprise) still alive and more or less intact. Now, change that to "you're currently dying and nowhere near full capacity." Does your example still make sense? You can't change the scenario to make a point. Your point has to make sense in that context. You keep stepping away from that.

Last I checked, all of the Nuva, most of the Mahri, and the entire Federation of Fear (minus the not-too clever Carapar) all came back very much alive. Highly important quest =/= death.
So you're back to "how do you know you'll die"? How is that an answer, since you also don't know you won't, and the mask is meant in case you do?

Can you name some, then?
Fatal stab, poison, drowning, overheating, disease (actually I forget if that one was brought up). We could also just run through the ways characters have died in Bionicle (including ones who couldn't use mask powers, like Jaller's slow death by fear, or ones who had already achieved their destiny, like Lhikan's slow death after a powerful impact, since those methods of death could happen to a Toa etc.).

Cancer.

Fatal life energy drain.

I could go on and on, but really, does anybody actually have trouble thinking of these situations? I don't buy it, really.

You don't know you're going to die. That's the point. I don't wake up each day thinking I'm not going to make it through, ever. Why would anyone unless they had foresight into the exact moment of your death? You can't just turn the question around and act like that clears it up.

Second, why did you name ways to die? :blink: That wasn't the question. I asked "How would they use it?" not "Name scenarios that result in death, at which point the mask becomes useful." How does the user get the mask on their face while they're dying?

Edited November 7, 2015 by T1Shadow: The Artisan

**bonesiii** · November 7, 2015

Uh, yes, T, I can, because you're actually the one who turned the original concept around. The concept was never "you never get this mask unless you know you're going to die", but "you get it if you think there's a good chance of it." (I'm not sure now if you're applying that just to getting the mask, or donning it at the final moment, but the same answer applies to both.)

I'm also curious how you would answer Zox's final paragraph. That's a very wise point -- if shock prevents concentration, then by your logic all other mask powers should become impossible the moment somebody faces danger. It makes no sense, T.

That wasn't the question. I asked "How would they use it?" not "Name scenarios that result in death, at which point the mask becomes useful."

I had a feeling you'd say that! Should have put up a "just in case" answer. Anyway, it's simple -- the "how" is already clear; you switch to it if it's in your means, and it's in your means if you made sure it would be (Suva, backpack), and you don't die instantly. Logically that then leaves the question of if there are situations where you don't die instantly, and how likely they are. This is all pretty clear, and was already clear back on page 1...

Rahkshi Lalonde · November 7, 2015

short blurb says you come back as an undead to complete one goal, could be useless because that's a pretty pathetic powerset, OR could be far too useful
So, knowing what you know about mask powers in Bionicle, the logical thing to do is interpret it as intended to be balanced, in-between those things! Just like how the Akaku doesn't mention range (re: another current topic), so "short blurb" could mean you can see an atom in the next galaxy... but nobody reasonably interprets it that way because that would be inconsistent with Bionicle power limits shown so far.

what.... when was that the "logical thing to do with mask powers"? mask powers are what's on the tin, Summoning? summons, Accuracy? gives you stupendous accuracy, or, in it's blurb description, notes that that means you can throw anything and it'll hit, quick-travel? is basically a dumb name for teleport but whatever.

Bionicle is aimed at kids 6 and up, so the number one goal of almost all of it was to provide info in the simplest way possible, not, as you so heartliy guard "take some extra thought to understand" if the mask of undeath doesn't say you come back with nearly all your capabilities, but it does. that's the fault of the one describing/designing it. :t

(also nobody expects the akaku to see into the next galaxy, and you said two-posts ago that I was prsenting strawmen? geez.)

**bonesiii** · November 7, 2015

My point was, the fact that the description doesn't say that it isn't on either extreme doesn't imply it is, and what you already know about seeing other powers in use implies you should assume a balance. Kids are perfectly capable of doing that. Although you will inevitably get the kid who says "Tahu can control all the stars in the galaxy!!!" I guess, but that's no reason not to have a Toa of Fire.

not, as you so heartliy guard "take some extra thought to understand"

Why are you trying that again? They told us that was indeed their intent, so how can you argue against it while simultaneously arguing that you're presenting what Bionicle "aimed" to do?? If you have to put yourself on the opposite of what they said they wanted Bionicle to be (and evidently helped it keep going for 10 years), that's as good an argument against your view as any, really. :lookaround:

(also nobody expects the akaku to see into the next galaxy, and you said two-posts ago that I was prsenting strawmen? geez.)

No -- my point was that you don't do that. For that power. But you DO assume one or the other extreme for this one apparently. My point is that's inconsistent.

As for "on the tin", we've been over that too. "Sheilding" alone doesn't imply the ambush thing, nor does "Mind Control" imply "only if they don't oppose it", nor "Translation" "only written if Noble", etc. But yes, some are more like that, like Strength.

Edited November 7, 2015 by bonesiii

The 1st Shadow · November 7, 2015

Uh, yes, T, I can, because you're actually the one who turned the original concept around. The concept was never "you never get this mask unless you know you're going to die", but "you get it if you think there's a good chance of it." (I'm not sure now if you're applying that just to getting the mask, or donning it at the final moment, but the same answer applies to both.)

I'm also curious how you would answer Zox's final paragraph. That's a very wise point -- if shock prevents concentration, then by your logic all other mask powers should become impossible the moment somebody faces danger. It makes no sense, T.

Hm. Perhaps I missed something somewhere. I'll go back and check.

As to that point, I question if you actually know what "shock" refers to, if I'm reading your response right. If you've gone into shock, then yeah, no mask would be of use to you. I didn't deny that. I said that once the body goes into shock, you most likely wouldn't be able to get to it, let alone summon it from a suva. That would apply to any mask. I never denied that. But since this is the only mask that relates to the user's death, I stressed that point more.

Of course, people do react differently to shock. And we know that MU beings don't have blood or anything that relates to shock where humans are concerned. Maybe that sort of thing isn't as prevalent in MU beings, since I just went off that one example. Who knows? Maybe you're right about that part.

Edited November 7, 2015 by T1Shadow: The Artisan

Mask of Undeath: Completely Useless?

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