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Classics (Ancient Greece, Rome, etc.)


Infrared

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Hi BZPower. Talk here about the classics--ancient Greek and Latin, ancient Mediterranean culture, or what have you. I'm curious to see how many BZPers are interested in this sort of thing.

 

Discuss!

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This topic exists??

 

i consider myself the biggest romanist/romanophile on BZPower (my avatar is currently Emperor Justinian II and often use Roman Emperors for avatars), so of course I am interested in these topics! Though I tend to be more fascinated by late antiquity and then medieval times when it comes to the Roman Empire. i could red-pill ya on some stuff relating to these periods of Roman Empire and how it relates to our perceptions of modern stuff, but it would require going into murky waters with site policy.

 

So, going back to classical antiquty, what were the functions of the Hellenistic Sacred Bands and did they do anything for society?

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So, going back to classical antiquty, what were the functions of the Hellenistic Sacred Bands and did they do anything for society?

I assume you're talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

 

From what I can assess, it was seen back in those times that such things were not inately wrong or bizarre, if anything it built greater rank and brotherhood between soldiers, considering that these soldiers were couples, it would be less of an emotional burden for their passing in my mind for the families, unlike the various lives lost in the myriads of other wars where there was left weeping widows. as is my best educated guess. As cruel as it may seem, those were harder times, and so it makes enough sense in my mind.

 

It was customary at that time and was conceived that men and women were equal and or at least had their own unique abilities and attributes pertaining to both genders, it was like that in ancient Egypt at least for a time I know.

 

 

But thats just my two cents.

 

 

As for what they did for modern society? Not much but just supply us with lore and mythology and things to consider. For their society they held a high standing and honor, it was regardless of their personal preferencial status, and more-so their capabilities to defend their homes and people, or really whatever it was exactly that they partook in with their occupation as elites.

Edited by Toa Imrukii

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i could red-pill ya on some stuff relating to these periods of Roman Empire and how it relates to our perceptions of modern stuff, but it would require going into murky waters with site policy.

 

I will pay you five bucks via PayPal if you promise to never use the phrase "red-pill" on this website again.

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i could red-pill ya on some stuff relating to these periods of Roman Empire and how it relates to our perceptions of modern stuff, but it would require going into murky waters with site policy.

 

I will pay you five bucks via PayPal if you promise to never use the phrase "red-pill" on this website again.

 

Couldn't pay me enough.

 

 

So, going back to classical antiquty, what were the functions of the Hellenistic Sacred Bands and did they do anything for society?

I assume you're talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

 

From what I can assess, it was seen back in those times that such things were not inately wrong or bizarre, if anything it built greater rank and brotherhood between soldiers, considering that these soldiers were couples, it would be less of an emotional burden for their passing in my mind for the families, unlike the various lives lost in the myriads of other wars where there was left weeping widows. as is my best educated guess. As cruel as it may seem, those were harder times, and so it makes enough sense in my mind.

 

It was customary at that time and was conceived that men and women were equal and or at least had their own unique abilities and attributes pertaining to both genders, it was like that in ancient Egypt at least for a time I know.

 

 

But thats just my two cents.

 

 

As for what they did for modern society? Not much but just supply us with lore and mythology and things to consider. For their society they held a high standing and honor, it was regardless of their personal preferencial status, and more-so their capabilities to defend their homes and people, or really whatever it was exactly that they partook in with their occupation as elites.

 

So there was only that sacred band, and not others? I had previously only heard their name in a trailer for Rome Total War: Alexander, and had assumed that they were holy orders for the temples of specific gods. Sorry for my complete ignorance on this. And I wasn't really talking about what they did for modern society, as we have many, but instead their local contemporaries. Genders were not exactly equal, they did not have modern philosophical ideas, instead they had greater respect for each other than after the establishment of the germanic kingdoms west of New Rome, but they had a role and place that they utilized to their maxim (within the boundaries of ancient traditions). This would be preserved in Old Romania/Rhomania, save for ignorant augustus' and basileus', with the addition of a third gender, the Eunuch.

 

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So another inquiry, what is the origin of the Franks? i know they emerged as a concise group during the Third Century Crisis, but from little I know on these formulative years, to me it looks like they just popped up among the deustch tribals.

Edited by Iaredios the Hip Historian
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Any Latin enthusiasts here? I think I'm at the early intermediate level or so.

Any particular texts you've read that you've enjoyed?

 

i could red-pill ya on some stuff relating to these periods of Roman Empire and how it relates to our perceptions of modern stuff, but it would require going into murky waters with site policy.

 

I will pay you five bucks via PayPal if you promise to never use the phrase "red-pill" on this website again.

 

t. blue-pilled person  ;)

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I am more interested in learning Greek than Latin tbh.

 

I clicked on this thinking Iaredios the Hip Historian created it.

Trust me, I am equally surprised.

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Any Latin enthusiasts here? I think I'm at the early intermediate level or so.

Any particular texts you've read that you've enjoyed?

 

Yep. I've enjoyed some of Catullus's poems because they seem pretty unfiltered, and they go against the stereotype that Latin's just a language of stuffy speeches and what have you. Also I only read a small excerpt, but Juvenal's Satires seem entertaining. How about you?

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For me mostly the staples - Bello Gallico, a few chapters from Aeneid, some Metamorphoses... nothing too wild. I'm still trying to set some groundwork in my mind for recognizing how grammar is set up, etc., before charging into the thicker stuff.

Edited by TheSkeletonMan939

 

 

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So, going back to classical antiquty, what were the functions of the Hellenistic Sacred Bands and did they do anything for society?

I assume you're talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

 

From what I can assess, it was seen back in those times that such things were not inately wrong or bizarre, if anything it built greater rank and brotherhood between soldiers, considering that these soldiers were couples, it would be less of an emotional burden for their passing in my mind for the families, unlike the various lives lost in the myriads of other wars where there was left weeping widows. as is my best educated guess. As cruel as it may seem, those were harder times, and so it makes enough sense in my mind.

 

It was customary at that time and was conceived that men and women were equal and or at least had their own unique abilities and attributes pertaining to both genders, it was like that in ancient Egypt at least for a time I know.

 

Uh, gonna have to disagree with you on the egalitarianism of Rome. Rome was totally sexist. Women were expected to remain faithful to their husbands, but men did not have the same restrictions. Women could not vote, were always under pater potestas​, were uneducated, and were considered to be more emotional and foolish than men. They even had awful naming conventions: the first daughter was given the feminine version of her father's name, and subsequent daughters were merely referred to by number (Secunda, Tertia, etc.).

On the subject of male couples in Rome (I know that the Sacred Bands were Theban, but it's connected), it's my impression that while it was considered publicly acceptable, some people might consider it personally abhorrent.

 

For me mostly the staples - Bello Gallico, a few chapters from Aeneid, some Metamorphoses... nothing too wild. I'm still trying to set some groundwork in my mind for recognizing how grammar is set up, etc., before charging into the thicker stuff.

I took two years in Latin. I am now wishing that I had taken a third. It's almost all gone from me now.

I appreciate the Greeks and Romans for giving us forums​, can I get an Amen?

"You humans are absurd, Rook. Furious when you're not in control, terrified when you are. Pull it together."

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So, going back to classical antiquty, what were the functions of the Hellenistic Sacred Bands and did they do anything for society?

I assume you're talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

 

From what I can assess, it was seen back in those times that such things were not inately wrong or bizarre, if anything it built greater rank and brotherhood between soldiers, considering that these soldiers were couples, it would be less of an emotional burden for their passing in my mind for the families, unlike the various lives lost in the myriads of other wars where there was left weeping widows. as is my best educated guess. As cruel as it may seem, those were harder times, and so it makes enough sense in my mind.

 

It was customary at that time and was conceived that men and women were equal and or at least had their own unique abilities and attributes pertaining to both genders, it was like that in ancient Egypt at least for a time I know.

 

Uh, gonna have to disagree with you on the egalitarianism of Rome. Rome was totally sexist. Women were expected to remain faithful to their husbands, but men did not have the same restrictions. Women could not vote, were always under pater potestas​, were uneducated, and were considered to be more emotional and foolish than men. They even had awful naming conventions: the first daughter was given the feminine version of her father's name, and subsequent daughters were merely referred to by number (Secunda, Tertia, etc.).

 

to be fair, that probably sounds pretty egalitarian to a topic full of people who would unironically use the term "redpill".

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So, going back to classical antiquty, what were the functions of the Hellenistic Sacred Bands and did they do anything for society?

I assume you're talking about this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

 

From what I can assess, it was seen back in those times that such things were not inately wrong or bizarre, if anything it built greater rank and brotherhood between soldiers, considering that these soldiers were couples, it would be less of an emotional burden for their passing in my mind for the families, unlike the various lives lost in the myriads of other wars where there was left weeping widows. as is my best educated guess. As cruel as it may seem, those were harder times, and so it makes enough sense in my mind.

 

It was customary at that time and was conceived that men and women were equal and or at least had their own unique abilities and attributes pertaining to both genders, it was like that in ancient Egypt at least for a time I know.

 

Uh, gonna have to disagree with you on the egalitarianism of Rome. Rome was totally sexist. Women were expected to remain faithful to their husbands, but men did not have the same restrictions. Women could not vote, were always under pater potestas​, were uneducated, and were considered to be more emotional and foolish than men. They even had awful naming conventions: the first daughter was given the feminine version of her father's name, and subsequent daughters were merely referred to by number (Secunda, Tertia, etc.).

 

to be fair, that probably sounds pretty egalitarian to a topic full of people who would unironically use the term "redpill".

 

 

For greater clarification, I wasn't explicitly referring to 'egalitarianism' when I wrote my post, or Rome for that matter. yes Greece and Rome are connected, but I wasn't specifically referring to Rome, I was referring to Greece. With my summary of so-called 'egalitarianism' as you put it, that was only in reference to the fact that in Egypt, a civilization close to and therefore relevant to the topic at hand, treated Men and Women as equal, whilst Rome was far from it.

 

I haven't seen the matrix movies, however I don't know what you mean by 'redpill' exactly. To my knowledge it just revealed the outcome of certain events of the film, I think. Not sure what it has to do with politics, other than being the color red.

Quote: "Love has no fear, and no vengeance." |

:t: :m_o: :a: :i: :m: :r: :u: :k: :i: :i: | mEaHKlH.pngAndekas

 

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@Astaroth: If you have nothing to contribute, stop posting. Stop trying to get a reaction. I would use my favorite Banner Saga quote, but it's already in my signature.

 

On topic though, has anyone else read D'Aulaires' Greek Myths? That was my jam as a kid, and they're still good. I imagine they portray the gods as they were intended to be seen: as ineffable good-guys (except perhaps for Hera), instead of the enormous jerks they appear as to those with later sensibilities.

 

@Toa Imrukii: In "The Matrix" choosing the "red pill" allows the protagonist to see the world for what it really is: Plato's "The Cave" but literal. It has become internet slang for being disillusioned with propaganda or conventional understanding. In certain circles, that becomes synonymous with accepting certain inflammatory propaganda instead. Go figure. Iaredios was probably using the term to refer to how some of our modern perceptions might be caused by Roman influence. Astaroth probably thought that he was using the term in its less benign sense.

 

@Iaredios: On the origin of the Franks, it's just the collective name for the tribes in Western Europe (it's where we get the word "France" from). The origin of the word is unclear. There are many possible root words for "Frank". The word had been used as a catch-all term for those tribes since, like forever.

Edited by Iver
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"You humans are absurd, Rook. Furious when you're not in control, terrified when you are. Pull it together."

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i could red-pill ya on some stuff relating to these periods of Roman Empire and how it relates to our perceptions of modern stuff, but it would require going into murky waters with site policy.

I will pay you five bucks via PayPal if you promise to never use the phrase "red-pill" on this website again.

 

t. blue-pilled person  ;)

 

Ooh, like these?

 

H4EXECu.jpg

 

I guess they're kinda blue. HRT's done more for me than I could ever have imagined tbh.

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@Astaroth: If you have nothing to contribute, stop posting. Stop trying to get a reaction. I would use my favorite Banner Saga quote, but it's already in my signature.

 

On topic though, has anyone else read D'Aulaires' Greek Myths? That was my jam as a kid, and they're still good. I imagine they portray the gods as they were intended to be seen: as ineffable good-guys (except perhaps for Hera), instead of the enormous jerks they appear as to those with later sensibilities.

 

@Toa Imrukii: In "The Matrix" choosing the "red pill" allows the protagonist to see the world for what it really is: Plato's "The Cave" but literal. It has become internet slang for being disillusioned with propaganda or conventional understanding. In certain circles, that becomes synonymous with accepting certain inflammatory propaganda instead. Go figure. Iaredios was probably using the term to refer to how some of our modern perceptions might be caused by Roman influence. Astaroth probably thought that he was using the term in its less benign sense.

 

Thank you for the clarification Iver, at least I think that's how it's spelt.

 

 

Anyway, I have not read the D'Auraires Greek Myths. However, the spelling reminds me of Irish, which reminds me of Irish Folklore. Has anyone read into it? It's some really interesting stuff. And I recommending reading into, the Fomorians are a pretty abstract but unique type of mythical being, or beings.

Quote: "Love has no fear, and no vengeance." |

:t: :m_o: :a: :i: :m: :r: :u: :k: :i: :i: | mEaHKlH.pngAndekas

 

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@Astaroth: If you have nothing to contribute, stop posting. Stop trying to get a reaction.

nah fam

 

 

 

@Imrukii: simply put, the whole "redpill" concept is so closely associated with garbage ideologies and movements like MRAs and the "alt-right" that you're just gonna look like a d-bag when you use it no matter the context. it may have meant something else before, but nowadays it's just a meaningless term that gets thrown around by pseudo-intellectual trolls to assert a misplaced sense of superiority over people they disagree with.

 

THE MORE YOU KNOW!

 

 

 

we'll now return to your regularly-scheduled fetishization of Roman imperialism.

Edited by Astaroth
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@Astaroth: If you have nothing to contribute, stop posting. Stop trying to get a reaction. I would use my favorite Banner Saga quote, but it's already in my signature.

 

On topic though, has anyone else read D'Aulaires' Greek Myths? That was my jam as a kid, and they're still good. I imagine they portray the gods as they were intended to be seen: as ineffable good-guys (except perhaps for Hera), instead of the enormous jerks they appear as to those with later sensibilities.

@Iaredios: On the origin of the Franks, it's just the collective name for the tribes in Western Europe (it's where we get the word "France" from). The origin of the word is unclear. There are many possible root words for "Frank". The word had been used as a catch-all term for those tribes since, like forever.

i agree.

 

I am not sure I have. Are there any examples I may be familiar with? EDIT: Also, should I read the sources Machiavelli's Discourses on Livy are based off of before reading that, or should it be fine to go into it without those records from antiquity?

 

Ha, I know who the Franks are, but was just curious on the origin of the name (and with it their origin as a distinct group). Thank you for your attempted help though, appreciate it.

 

 

 

@Astaroth: If you have nothing to contribute, stop posting. Stop trying to get a reaction.

nah fam

 

 

 

@Imrukii: simply put, the whole "redpill" concept is so closely associated with garbage ideologies and movements like MRAs and the "alt-right" that you're just gonna look like a d-bag when you use it no matter the context. it may have meant something else before, but nowadays it's just a meaningless term that gets thrown around by pseudo-intellectual trolls to assert a misplaced sense of superiority over people they disagree with.

 

 

 

but whatever, I'll let you all get back to your fetishization of Roman imperialism.

 

Speaking of pseudo-intellectual trolls attempting to assert a misplaced sense of superiority over people they disagree with...

 

I am using the term accurately and did not have any of that modern political stuff in my mind when I initially said it about Rhomania. Things I was talking about includes the Roman Empire not falling in antiquity, Constantine the Great not being the one to change the religion of the empire into Christianity, the Donation of Constantine, the empire's relationship with early Islam, it's role in the start of the First Crusade by the Latins, and other things. These things are not fully taught in mandatory education.

 

He's not the one with an autistic obsession and fascination with the Roman Empire, that would be me (and no, not being demeaning in any way, I am autistic, diagnosed with Asperger's to be exact). And I do not have a fetish. I despise much of what Rome stood for, they were in a lot of ways fascist, seeing other peoples as lower than themselves and they had the 'right' to bring their 'light of civilization' by 'rightfully' conquering those 'barbarians' and attempting to destroy their cultures. As well as the ingrained politicization of religion (like what Theodosius did to Christianity to retain divine rule). By my views and beliefs, they are the epitome of civilization, and that is not exactly a good thing. But Old Romania had a profound impact on world history even after its status as a superpower faded, and there are many things it was involved in or directly influenced, and ignoring these is foolish in my opinion. There are also many interesting stories involved with it, like the person in my avatar, and plenty of others. There was a time in my life that I looked up to the Roman Empire and held them on a pedestal but that was abandoned a while ago when i grew up; now I see them as a lesson to learn from as well as like an epic dark fantasy world to dive into.

Edited by Iaredios the Hip Historian

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Aw, you guys have never read D'Aulaires' Mythology? I got my copy from my mother when I was 9, and she got it from her father at about the same age. The artwork was made using carven stone and wood blocks. They've done other books too. I have a copies of their book of Norse myths and their book of trolls.

 

@Imrukii: The D'Aulaires are actually from Switzerland and Norway, but the name is French. Irish mythology is harder to access than Greek mythology.

Edited by Iver

"You humans are absurd, Rook. Furious when you're not in control, terrified when you are. Pull it together."

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New discussion! Would the fate of Rome have been different had Julius Caesar not been assassinated? Renaissance writers (Shakespeare, Dante) say yes. And if it had changed, would this have been good or bad? What do you think?

"You humans are absurd, Rook. Furious when you're not in control, terrified when you are. Pull it together."

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New discussion! Would the fate of Rome have been different had Julius Caesar not been assassinated? Renaissance writers (Shakespeare, Dante) say yes. And if it had changed, would this have been good or bad? What do you think?

I see what you did there, bringing Romans back to the foreground....

 

Not sure. He had been all but crowned as monarch of Rome. Had he not been assassinated, he would not have been divinated and added to the Roman pantheon, which means that the divination of deceased Roman rulers Octavian and Tiberius would not have begun, as well as the divine ruler tradition set up by Caligula that would last until the demise of the state and civilization (with the Christian adaptation skins performed by Constantine (Equal To the Apostles) and Theodosius (Deputy of God on Earth)). Without this complete merging of ruler of state and church in the west, medieval times would be vastly different (this was already pretty prevalent throughout the rest of the world).

 

Immediate affects, though, I am completely unsure on.

Edited by Iaredios the Hip Historian

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Well, the power struggle between Mark Antony and Augustus might have been averted, saving Rome a lot of trouble. Julius' reforms would have completed and carried out, causing Rome to run more efficiently, at least for a time. It is also probable that a legitimate succession would have been formed, stabilizing Roman government.

 

Had he not been assassinated, he would not have been divinated and added to the Roman pantheon, which means that the divination of deceased Roman rulers Octavian and Tiberius would not have begun, as well as the divine ruler tradition set up by Caligula that would last until the demise of the state and civilization (with the Christian adaptation skins performed by Constantine (Equal To the Apostles) and Theodosius (Deputy of God on Earth)).

Roman Emperors would still have been divinated, I think, Julius included. Roman patricians were already considered descendants of Mars, and Julius had innumerable quasi-divine titles bestowed upon him already, such as "Father of the Fatherland" and "Dictator in Perpetuity." Christian monarchies wouldn't have changed much even so. Kings have almost always tried to claim some divine backing, and Christianity even grants them some just as a matter of courtesy.

In the long run, I think that Rome's destiny would not have been altered. There was no way to prevent all of the decadence, corruption, infighting, decline, plagues, and raids that Rome was eventually subject to.

"You humans are absurd, Rook. Furious when you're not in control, terrified when you are. Pull it together."

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