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How do We Know When a Prototype/Rare Mask is Real? Why is Authentication Never An Issue?


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Hello everyone! Relatively new collector here and I have a few questions. Mainly, why don't people make fake prototypes? How do we know people don't do this? To be clear, I'm not suspecting people of selling fake masks. Clearly I'm the noob here, not them. 

Socketball (among others) have perfected resin printing masks. I believe that actual masks are injection molded, and would thus show evidence of this process. And yet, when new prototypes/color variants are discovered with no ownership history, no authentication is required. They just get added to the rares thread and people throw thousands at them. Is it possible to "fake" injection molding sites? Would making an injection mold of a mask be too tedious/expensive? I assume this would take a massive piece of machinery. But, still, not beyond the pale, right?

Here's the thread that made me start to wonder. This guy shows up with a prototype Hau. It's a color no masks have been printed in, and a texture no masks have been printed in. He also claims it's a different material than other masks. And yet, according to him, it sold almost instantly. 

https://www.bzpower.com/topic/35330-kanohi-and-krana-for-sale/

Here's another example. Five new prototypes show up, no chain of custody (IE nobody is like "Yeah mask collector got them from Binkmeister in 2009" or whatever) but they're all taken at face value. Someone told me (well, implied) that LEGO uses their own material. Is that true? Can it not be replicated due to a "secret recipe"? Anyway just searching for answers. 

 

TL;DR if Socketball made a fake prototype, how would we know?

Edited by The Archivist
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2 hours ago, The Archivist said:

Mainly, why don't people make fake prototypes? How do we know people don't do this?

Broadly speaking, people do. I'm aware of one guy who's recently been kicked out of a bunch of Bionicle Discords for selling fake Sand Tarakavas and doing other dodgy stuff on his Bricklink store. 

But at this point the Bionicle community are really on top of the history of prototypes and uncommon parts. It's very, very rare that something completely new and unheard of turns up, especially given how long ago G1 was now. It's usually pretty easy to check the provenance of something and figure out if it's real or not. 

2 hours ago, The Archivist said:

Socketball (among others) have perfected resin printing masks. I believe that actual masks are injection molded, and would thus show evidence of this process. And yet, when new prototypes/color variants are discovered with no ownership history, no authentication is required. They just get added to the rares thread and people throw thousands at them. Is it possible to "fake" injection molding sites? 

As someone who resin prints Masks myself, you can definitely tell them apart from the real thing when you have them in-hand. No matter how good the printer is, there will still be some visible layer lines if you look closely enough, and possibly evidence of where supports were attached. If someone tried to pass off prints as the real thing they'd be caught out as soon as the parts changed hands. 

On the other hand, there are people who do resin casts of parts, which would capture authentic details like injection mould sites. At a glance, resin-cast parts are much harder to discern from the real thing, but again, I think the community as a whole would get suspicious if a huge number of rare parts with no provenance started appearing on the market. In the long run, cast-makers would probably make more money by being upfront about what their product is. 

2 hours ago, The Archivist said:

Here's another example. Five new prototypes show up, no chain of custody (IE nobody is like "Yeah mask collector got them from Binkmeister in 2009" or whatever) but they're all taken at face value.

I think context is important here. People are more willing to take something like this at face value because the person posting about it isn't trying to sell them, and is being open about the fact they're trying to research their origins.

Your other example of the unusual Hau is definitely much more dubious, but I don't want to make unfounded accusations about a user I've had no contact with. 

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I handled some prototype masks once from the early stages of Bionicle (ones with codes on the face), and there is one thing on them that is hard to capture without seeing them in person; is how rough they actually are. It is pretty simple really, LEGO in prototype phases probably uses quickly made molds using CNC machines, the result being notable lines which show where the CNC drill bit cut out material, flash from loose tolerances, and other imperfections which denote how rushed the part was. As this photo I have stolen from the internet demonstrates, note the flash on the bottom of the Pakari, or the prominent sprue cut on the Miru's nose:

Did anyone see these prototype masks on eBay UK last week? Think they're  legit? : r/bioniclelego

However, this is a good thing for fans looking to avoid fakes. Injection molding at home to imitate official masks would produce masks that look like the prototypes! Most amateur hobbyists would lack access to the funds required to create a true high quality mold, and while its possible somebody with a CNC machine and injection molder could create low quality molds similar to the prototype masks, it would be hard to create a truly polished high tolerance mold to get a 100% real LEGO feel. Of course it does mean prototype "numbers forward" masks could be more easily faked, but it lends credence to the idea that all authentic masks would have that distinct LEGO quality of polish and sheen (those in the Twitter post look very promising because of that along with the color matching to official LEGO parts). Yes a hobbyist CAN really make a somewhat convincing mask if they machined the mold for it properly, but its a very demanding process. 

By the way, just check out how CNC machining molds work; very cool process and yes the tech exists to get some high quality stuff now; although still not quite as solid as LEGO's official (and very expensive) methods:

 

Now as for resin masks. As mentioned already, printed masks will always have printer lines. But molded resin can have a smoother finish. My guess is for a non-destructive test to tell the difference between resin and authentic LEGO plastic is to use the scientific theories of density (ala Archimedes measuring the density of the king's crown in legend). We could weigh suspect masks vs. known LEGO pieces to determine their weight, resin often weighs slightly more than ABS and other comparable plastics. Then using water displacement we can determine the volume of the piece, then finally calculate the density to compare the values of density with known resin and plastics. If it matches the density of official LEGO parts such as other Bionicle masks, it is a strong candidate for authenticity! 

Philosophy of Science Portal: EUREKA! or "Archimedes and the Golden Crown"

Edit: In the case of the Twitter thread it should also be pointed out there is a known production list of masks which includes many masks not represented in publicly released sets. The masks from the Twitter post do match the identities of known masks combinations from that production list.

 

Edited by Xboxtravis
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9 hours ago, Xboxtravis said:

note the flash on the bottom of the Pakari

Um... there's no Pakari in that picture, just a Miru, two Haus, and a Kakama. Did you mean the Kakama, by any chance?

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On 5/27/2023 at 5:22 PM, The Archivist said:

And yet, when new prototypes/color variants are discovered with no ownership history, no authentication is required. They just get added to the rares thread and people throw thousands at them.

For the record, I don't add every newly found alleged prototype to the rares topic. They have to look really convincing, as the five from Twitter do. In contrast, there's a guy on social media who claims to have several prototype masks and Krana that absolutely do not look convincing, so they are not in the topic (I briefly included them a while back before realizing I was being way too trusting and took them out). This is a good point here:

10 hours ago, Xboxtravis said:

However, this is a good thing for fans looking to avoid fakes. Injection molding at home to imitate official masks would produce masks that look like the prototypes! Most amateur hobbyists would lack access to the funds required to create a true high quality mold, and while its possible somebody with a CNC machine and injection molder could create low quality molds similar to the prototype masks, it would be hard to create a truly polished high tolerance mold to get a 100% real LEGO feel. Of course it does mean prototype "numbers forward" masks could be more easily faked, but it lends credence to the idea that all authentic masks would have that distinct LEGO quality of polish and sheen (those in the Twitter post look very promising because of that along with the color matching to official LEGO parts)

I don't include rough-looking prototypes or that Hau made of a different plastic because, like Xboxtravis says, fakes would have similar qualities. I'm not accusing anyone in particular of selling fake prototypes, just agreeing that it is impossible to verify their authenticity.

10 hours ago, Xboxtravis said:

In the case of the Twitter thread it should also be pointed out there is a known production list of masks which includes many masks not represented in publicly released sets. The masks from the Twitter post do match the identities of known masks combinations from that production list.

 

Just to add a healthy dose of skepticism - if someone did want to pass off a fake as a real prototype, the best way to do it would be to find a piece on that list that hasn't been seen before, make one, and then point to the list as evidence that it's real. I don't think that's what happened in the case of the Twitter masks because they look very real, but the list could potentially be abused in that way.

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In my prototype hunting over the years it helps to have reference material to go off of, like pictures from the Binkmeister bags for example. Along with that, the person who has them or are selling them is also important, their backstory, and the backstory of how they came across the piece. One person I bought from was a former employee, for example. Typically it’s been pretty easy for me to spot “fakes”, the general rule is if you’re suspicious of it being authentic, stay away from it. I’ve also had the privilege to consult some people who had the Binkmeister bags to begin with, for example somebody had a glow in the dark glatorian head, but there was too much that was weird with the story, piece, and price, so I passed. The prototypes of bionicle is a strong passion I’ve had for the theme, so I’ve spent a lot more time looking at these pieces and known existing ones, and having all that time and experience helps a lot. It would be very easy for somebody just starting out, I believe, to mistake a custom for a prototype, under the right circumstances.

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On 5/30/2023 at 9:42 PM, Xboxtravis said:

Edit: In the case of the Twitter thread it should also be pointed out there is a known production list of masks which includes many masks not represented in publicly released sets. The masks from the Twitter post do match the identities of known masks combinations from that production list.

 

Do you know where I can get a copy of that file? Can't find it on twitter and it would be fascinating. 

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  • 2 weeks later...

Well I think you can never truly know, unless its from a authentik source, or you know the person irl. So everytime I see such things I do not trust in my first impulse would be to find out by myself, and if there is no sourcematerial, wich confirms its real I would try buying them or meeting the person that posted it. Someone has to go there and find out for himself and the world. Sadly I'm broke and since I live a the end of the world I can't do any of those things. I was tought to always question things and a lot of times my doubts were false and I have grown to respect this commuity for beeing so honest all the time. I think we could trust him, since he said HE wanted to gathere information about it, wich, unless he just wants attention would make no sence to fake. Even though it seems oddly particular the he comes up with a bunch of unreleased, one of a kind pieces from 2001 NOW, but I found one of those infected Tahu-Nuva masks in my piece bin and never really knew, waht it was until I saw a video mentionig it. Maybe it was like that, I would believe him, if he said that, or maybe he got it from someone else, who didn't know what it was. Those are storys happening all time, the story, with the livesised visorak modell a few weeks ago was just like that and no one thought he was lieing. But in the end it is everyones own decision to make, what he believes and what not.

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