Ta- and Su-Matoran: Who’s better in what?

[Lenny7092]

Hi, guys. I noticed something interesting about the Matoran types’ tiny powers. Here’s my analysis: 
1. Ta-Matoran (Matoran of Fire) - can resist hot temperatures
2. Ga-Matoran (Water) - have greater lung capacity and are good swimmers. 
3. Le-Matoran (Air) - have greater speed and agility in high structures.
4. Ko-Matoran (Ice) - can resist cold temperatures. 
5. Po-Matoran (Stone) - are physically the strongest. 
6. Onu-Matoran (Earth) - are physically the second strongest. They can also sense vibrations in the ground and have excellent night vision. 
7. Vo-Matoran (Lightning) - can resist electric shocks. 
8. Fa-Matoran (Magnetism) - have a good sense of direction, and have internal compasses. 
9. Bo-Matoran (Plant Life) - have a great understanding on plant-related things, like poison. They usually work as healers. 
10. De-Matoran (Sonics) - have an acute sense of hearing. 
11. Su-Matoran (Plasma) - can resist hotter temperatures than Ta-Matoran do. Their eyes have protection against bright light. 
12. Ba-Matoran (Gravity) - can resist great density pressures. 
13. Fe-Matoran (Iron or Metal) - are physically the toughness Matoran, as they are like very tough armor. 
14. Ce-Matoran (Psionics) - their minds can be shielded. 
15. Av-Matoran (Light) - a good-hearted type of Matoran that can shoot Light blasts from their hands and change their body color. 
16. Shadow Matoran - unnatural and evil type of Matoran that can shoot Shadow blasts from their hands. 

So, I see that Su-Matoran are better than Ta-Matoran. It’s like making Ta-Matoran weaker. Well, I would like to think that Ta-Matoran are physically stronger than Su-Matoran because Ta-Matoran in Ta-Koro in the island of Mata Nui train people about Strength for the Kolhii games. What do you think, guys?

[Nato G]

First off, I'd love to know your source for some of these. Onu-Matoran are cited as only having "limited night vision" in most sources, and I can't find any reference to them being able to sense vibrations in the ground. 

Generally speaking, though, some of these things are more like stereotypes than actual attributes. And some of them seem to specifically apply to Matoran on the island of Mata Nui, and aren't representative of how those Matoran would operate elsewhere in the universe (eg. Le-Matoran being super capable at heights but uncoordinated on the ground). Throughout canon, we've seen plenty of Matoran who don't adhere as closely to these characteristics.

As for Su-Matoran basically being better than Ta-Matoran, that's just the unfortunate downside of power creep and adding elements that overlap with each other. We know so little about Su-Matoran in-story that you can say whatever you want about them. That said, I don't think using the Kolhii Skills of the Ta-Matoran population on Mata Nui to justify a trait of the rest of the species is a good choice. The Matoran on Mata Nui were mind-wiped and indoctrinated on lies by untrustworthy Turaga who wanted to keep them compliant, and their traits and values aren't representative of the wider universe. 

[Master Inika]

20 hours ago, Nato G said:

The Matoran on Mata Nui were mind-wiped and indoctrinated on lies by untrustworthy Turaga who wanted to keep them compliant, and their traits and values aren't representative of the wider universe. 

That's the least charitable description of the 2001-03 setting I have ever heard. But, I cannot dispute it.

Your observations are true: the elemental attributes were only really relevant on Mata Nui (and to a lesser extent Metru Nui) and the secondary elements' attributes really feel like they were chosen on the fly. It's weird to try to imagine these attributes still being a thing in the later story, like Balta being resistant to heat or Defilak being clumsy while walking. The only time post-2003 they seemed important at all was Krakua and the other De-Matoran, because it was directly relevant to the plot.

[Xboxtravis]

On 5/29/2023 at 1:46 PM, Master Inika said:

That's the least charitable description of the 2001-03 setting I have ever heard. But, I cannot dispute it.

Well... I'll gladly dispute it. 🤣The Toa Metru dragged an entire city's population of people from Metru-Nui to Mata-Nui (while the Turaga probably hoped to return to Metru-Nui they had no guarantee it would happen either though and there was a possibility their trip to Mata-Nui was a one-way trip). They sacrificed their powers to revive all those people. They lead those people to rebuild their civilization (apparently well enough that even some skilled technical people such as Nuparu were able to re-learn hard skills such as engineering). In the process they lead that civilization to last for a constant siege nearly a millennia long, against hordes of Rahi without any Toa to protect them until the Toa Mata finally showed up ashore 1000 years late. 

I think a lot has been said about the Turaga "lying" to the population of Mata-Nui, but I don't see it as that. I would say their only notable lie was when they sent the Toa Nuva to Voya-Nui because the Great Spirit was dying, however that was in a much different situation at that point than the Matoran were living under the "Great War" before the Toa Mata arrived. Keeping secrets is not exactly the same as lying outright, and although elements of Matoran history like Lhikan were twisted into Lhii the Surfer and other things were not reveled to the Matoran, can you blame the Turaga? They never knew for sure if they would return to Metru-Nui, and the longer they spent on Mata-Nui without the Toa arriving probably made them more and more desperate in believing the promised Toa who would save them would never arrive. Every day passed on Mata-Nui was another day where it was likely the legends had failed, another day where it seemed likely that the Matoran who lived on the island were the last of their kind; a dying civilization holding onto whatever threads they could as their Great Spirit slowly died.

Now if you were in the same situation, would you have done any differently? Told the Matoran about Metru-Nui and the technological paradise you used to call home? Or would you focus on building out your new society, and doing your best to make Mata-Nui as much of a paradise as you could under constant Rahi siege while clinging to a hope that old legends of the Toa Mata would eventually prove themselves true? The Turaga get to much flak for not disclosing everything they knew, when its pretty obvious their leadership role held together society for 1000 years.

Again I will argue the key difference later with the Great Spirit dying was at that point the Matoran had returned to Metru-Nui, the Turaga had disclosed all their previous secrets (in a long story form); and then chose to lie at that point to hide the even worse truth they just discovered (plus Jaller et. al. were fated to become Toa anyways, so its likely in whatever techno-fate-programming thing was going on Jaller's anger and subsequent organized strike were just the start of his destined path to becoming a Toa Inika soon after). But again I sort of understand the Turaga, they were probably as shocked and traumatized by the idea that the Great Spirit could die as anybody; and were probably lying as some sort of traumatic protection; to avoid the truth that their god-universe robot guy was on the verge of death. 

What were we talking about, Su-Matoran?  🤣

To briefly comment on OP's topic, I just always assumed Su-Matoran were rarer by design. Maybe there was some sort of "expense" that made them harder to "make" than the more common Ta-Matoran. If a Ta-Matoran can do 99% of the fire related jobs in the Great Spirit Robot, and only 1% of those jobs need a Su-Matoran; you make the population match the needs of the 99% of work and just have a small portion of Su-Matoran around for the really really really hot stuff. 

Edited June 2, 2023 by Xboxtravis

[Lorentz]

Su-Matoran have greater resistance to extreme heat, but may also have a much greater weakness to cold.

[(-Kopaka Toa of Ice-)]

Plasma should not mean hotter than fire or better protection. However being more resistant to bright light is fine.

[Lenny7092]

On 5/28/2023 at 7:00 PM, Nato G said:

First off, I'd love to know your source for some of these. Onu-Matoran are cited as only having "limited night vision" in most sources, and I can't find any reference to them being able to sense vibrations in the ground. 

Generally speaking, though, some of these things are more like stereotypes than actual attributes. And some of them seem to specifically apply to Matoran on the island of Mata Nui, and aren't representative of how those Matoran would operate elsewhere in the universe (eg. Le-Matoran being super capable at heights but uncoordinated on the ground). Throughout canon, we've seen plenty of Matoran who don't adhere as closely to these characteristics.

As for Su-Matoran basically being better than Ta-Matoran, that's just the unfortunate downside of power creep and adding elements that overlap with each other. We know so little about Su-Matoran in-story that you can say whatever you want about them. That said, I don't think using the Kolhii Skills of the Ta-Matoran population on Mata Nui to justify a trait of the rest of the species is a good choice. The Matoran on Mata Nui were mind-wiped and indoctrinated on lies by untrustworthy Turaga who wanted to keep them compliant, and their traits and values aren't representative of the wider universe. 

Well, I brought the Kolhii Skill idea because when I looked at Jaller’s and Nuparu’s Bionicle.com stats in 2007 and Tahu’s and Onua’s in 2008 (check BS01). They appear that Jaller and Nuparu have the same strength level while Tahu and Onua also have the same strength level. However, Onu-Matoran are likely the second-strongest Matoran type, so I would put the Ta-Matoran in between the Onu-Matoran and Su-Matoran, despite me not being sure if the stats are canon (though Greg Farshtey treats them as such when you read about Mutran’s stats in the Official Greg Discussion topic). Tahu looks strong compared to Kopaka, Lewa, and Gali, anyway.

[Takanuva111]

On 6/7/2023 at 3:21 PM, (-Kopaka Toa of Ice-) said:

Plasma should not mean hotter than fire or better protection. However being more resistant to bright light is fine.

I agree. However that would make the avmatorans powers seem obsolete.