Underused powers

[ToaN]

 

I don't recall Turahk being vaporized. All six Kraata were available to put in the Ussanui, so I don't see how that's possible. They were just stunned, if memory serves. Also it would seem highly unlikely that light is capable of vaporizing, since it only has heat as a small side product.

Perhaps 'vaporising' was the wrong word. I don't know what to call it, but right after Takua becomes Takanuva, he does this to Turahk:

 

The blast could have just stunned the Turahk.Like an electric shock knocking a human out, but not killing him.

[slifer3000]

Doesn't light form lasers though?

[fishers64]

Doesn't light form lasers though?

It doesn't have to. Takanuva may or may not have used a lazer blast againest Turahk, but I tend to doubt it, as he only had those powers for a few seconds. Further, if it was a laser, it would only break Turahk in pieces, not vaporize him. Sir Kohran, that doesn't look like a vaporization sequence to me.

[Sir Kohran]

Sir Kohran, that doesn't look like a vaporization sequence to me.

 

I already said that wasn't the right word to describe it. You're welcome to think of one more appropriate.

[fishers64]

More like stun-blasted it, I think. :shrugs:Also, not sure why Rahkshi armor would be soild antidermis. Makuta have protosteel armor, not antidermis, and I thought the armor was made from EP + kraata. (Throw antidermis into EP and get a soild antidermis suit out?)I doubt the Rahkshi are sapient or sentient. They are robot-like things controlled by Makuta. To the point that thousands of them marched to their deaths without question in Time Trap. Even sentient beings have a self-preservation instinct and a will to live.

[Chro]

(Throw antidermis into EP and get a soild antidermis suit out?)

IMO it makes more sense than throwing antidermis in and getting protosteel out.

[bonesiii]

What I meant by "if memory serves" there is that I'm pretty sure Greg confirmed that he stunned it, because they were beings of shadow, so light was a good counter to it.

 

And vaporize would only be apt if we saw it turn into vapor. I just re-watched to check; the view cuts away before we can see what happens next to the Rahkshi. Also, pretty sure parts from the Rahkshi armor were used to make Ussanui, although I suppose that could be from the other five. (Not sure on that point, but the Kraata definately was not destroyed. So either it was trapped in locked-up armor or it was stunned.)

 

Also, not sure why Rahkshi armor would be soild antidermis. Makuta have protosteel armor, not antidermis, and I thought the armor was made from EP + kraata. (Throw antidermis into EP and get a soild antidermis suit out?)

What would Makuta armor have to do with it? These aren't Makuta. The suits are made by transforming a Kraata, which is made of solid antidermis. I would assume the suit is thus the same (though metal instead of organic), except that it is transformed in protodermis, so you could make a case either way. Perhaps it's mostly protometal with some antidermic "muscle-function" parts; maybe the mass of the antidermis stays the same as the Kraata and is just rearranged inside protodermis that's added?

 

Anywho, probably not relevant, I only brought it up to correct my earlier labeling of it as definitely protodermis. It's not definite, unless Greg ever clarified it. Pretty much off-topic here, just being precise.

 

I doubt the Rahkshi are sapient or sentient. They are robot-like things controlled by Makuta. To the point that thousands of them marched to their deaths without question in Time Trap. Even sentient beings have a self-preservation instinct and a will to live.

Sapient human soldiers will march into battle to their deaths. D-Day anyone? That's not a reliable measure. And even if Tahu knew this about Rahkshi (which I doubt), does a creature's willingness to die equate to a Toa's willingness to kill it? I highly doubt that.

 

Besides, Matoro did the same thing, and nobody thinks he wasn't sapient or even sentient. Plus, the Mind Control mask could probably make any sapient being do things like that even against their will. Seems to me they might be partially sapient, with a special rule that something like mind control takes over if they are given a mission. Otherwise they are like unusually intelligent animals.

Edited May 30, 2013 by bonesiii

[slifer3000]

I doubt the Rahkshi are sapient or sentient. They are robot-like things controlled by Makuta. To the point that thousands of them marched to their deaths without question in Time Trap. Even sentient beings have a self-preservation instinct and a will to live.

Well they essentially are the Makuta. Not like the same species but they are a part of their maker's essence.

 

 

 

Doesn't light form lasers though?

It doesn't have to. Takanuva may or may not have used a lazer blast againest Turahk, but I tend to doubt it, as he only had those powers for a few seconds. Further, if it was a laser, it would only break Turahk in pieces, not vaporize him.

That's not what lasers do, they cut and punch holes. Takanuva did this to Chirox in the Final Battle

[Sir Kohran]

What I meant by "if memory serves" there is that I'm pretty sure Greg confirmed that he stunned it, because they were beings of shadow, so light was a good counter to it.

 

And vaporize would only be apt if we saw it turn into vapor. I just re-watched to check; the view cuts away before we can see what happens next to the Rahkshi. Also, pretty sure parts from the Rahkshi armor were used to make Ussanui, although I suppose that could be from the other five. (Not sure on that point, but the Kraata definately was not destroyed. So either it was trapped in locked-up armor or it was stunned.)

 

How long was Turahk stunned for? Right after the blast, Takanuva decides to turn a huge rock into Takua's face, then picks up Jaller's body and sadly walks over to the Toa. Turahk seems completely forgotten. He isn't visible at Kini-Nui in the overhead shot seconds after being blasted either.

Edited May 30, 2013 by Sir Kohran

[bonesiii]

Stun works for that, though. It's common in TV for the camera viewpoint to forget about someone once stunned. I dunno about an overhead shot. Having just watched that scene I don't remember one... Couldja printscreen it so I know what scene you mean?

[Sir Kohran]

This bit (slightly brightened). The Toa, Pewku, the other defeated Rahkshi and Jaller's body are all visible, yet Turahk has vanished:

 

[bonesiii]

I see. Well, just closely rewatched that scene. It is confusing. Before I get to that, lemme quote BS01 on this. Movie page:

 

Takanuva shoots a beam of light that stuns Turahk and defeats it. He then fires a laser, which completely reveals a carving of Takua's mask under the stone statue in Kini Nui. He then picks up Jaller's body and silently leaves.

 

The scene then shifts to show Takanuva talking to Jaller's levitating mask, questioning the need for Jaller's death. Turaga Vakama then walks up to the Toa and rebukes him, saying that Mata Nui knows best. Takanuva reaffirms that his duty is clear, and vows that Jaller's sacrifice will not be in vain. Takanuva and the other Toa then assemble the Ussanui and place a Kraata from one of the Rahkshi inside, to lead to Makuta.

So it seems only one Kraata was used for the Ussanui, so maybe the Turahk could have been killed. However, BS01 confirms that it was stunned. Doesn't say what they made the Ussanui of here. Let's see if that page does... Yes, but doesn't say how many Rahkshi were used for that.

 

Anyways, back to the scene.

 

First observation is... the Amaja Circle seems to shrink and grow in size at will. Nearly the whole scene takes place on it; sometimes it seems about the size of a house, other times a kitchen table lol. Anywho..

 

After killing Jaller, Turahk throws him quite a distance seemingly, to one edge of the Amaja circle. That's where he dies and stays. I'm actually not entirely sure where in that printscreen he is, but I assume it's that bit of yellow and red at Takanuva's feet (toward the "camera"), since it was a stone edge of the circle, not on the sand, and he seems clearly not at any of the other points, plus Takanuva didn't step. He's partially obscured by the giant glass column trapping some of the other Rahkshi.

 

Where the Turahk was at that point is unclear. After throwing Jaller, two Toa jump up, presumably to distract it while the whole death and transformation scene goes on.

 

Then Takanuva stuns the Turahk, facing directly ahead toward the camera (not the same angle as this printscreen), and turns to his left to fire the laser seen in the printscreen.

 

That should put Turahk some distance between Takanuva and the Toa, methinks, in the printscreen. And what is there is unclear; there's rubble, some dark patches where Turahk might have fallen, and some odd shape on the edge of the circle I can't make out, either in your brightened version or stopping the vid myself there. That might be Turahk.

 

Or perhaps after killing Jaller, he moved around a bit fighting Toa, and was simply out of frame for that printscreened shot, perhaps slightly below (from our POV) the Toa. The brief scene showing Takanuva's attack hitting him had him on the edge of the Amaja circle, though, so I doubt this one.

 

Yet, that giant column of glass is partially obscuring the scene. Turahk might have fallen off the circle there and be blocked from our view in the shadows there. Or he might have fallen off the other side, judging by Takanuva's turn after attacking him, and slid just out of sight behind the rather tall circle.

 

A movie-physics problem comes up here, incidentally. In the printscreen, Takanuva is huge compared to the circle, yet we see a shot of him, closeup, firing light, and then about a second later the light hits Turahk. Even granting that in Bionicle physics light always seems to move extremely slow (considering in real life it's the single fastest thing possible; pretty much instant on any planetary scale), the circle has now grown exponentially in size apparently lol.

 

Which I bring up because as far as I can tell, it's possible there are multiple circle-like things in the movie portrayal of the setting and Turahk might have actually been on a separate one, but really unsure of this.

 

Another factor is that earlier it seems that there's a bridge going to the circle, and a sharp dropoff right next to it. Turahk might have fallen down this ravine or whatever it was in the moments between being stunned and the switch to that printscreened moment.

 

So, unsure what the movie people intended, but there's a number of possibilities without resorting to something like vaporization.

[fishers64]

 

Also, not sure why Rahkshi armor would be soild antidermis. Makuta have protosteel armor, not antidermis, and I thought the armor was made from EP + kraata. (Throw antidermis into EP and get a soild antidermis suit out?)

What would Makuta armor have to do with it?

Another case of me thinking of something, finding it without support after I thought about it, but keeping the reasoning based on it to support something else. The idea was that antidermis doesn't form into inorganic components like armor, or if it does, it doesn't do so very well because the Makuta used protosteel instead. Protosteel is better, apparently, but it could just be more available or the Makuta were cheap on their expendable soliders.

 

I doubt the Rahkshi are sapient or sentient. They are robot-like things controlled by Makuta. To the point that thousands of them marched to their deaths without question in Time Trap. Even sentient beings have a self-preservation instinct and a will to live.

Sapient human soldiers will march into battle to their deaths. D-Day anyone? That's not a reliable measure. And even if Tahu knew this about Rahkshi (which I doubt), does a creature's willingness to die equate to a Toa's willingness to kill it? I highly doubt that. Besides, Matoro did the same thing, and nobody thinks he wasn't sapient or even sentient. Plus, the Mind Control mask could probably make any sapient being do things like that even against their will. Seems to me they might be partially sapient, with a special rule that something like mind control takes over if they are given a mission. Otherwise they are like unusually intelligent animals.

D-day isn't comparable here. That was the sacrifice of sapient individuals in order to stop evil (as was Matoro). These beings are blindly marching to their deaths as a distraction so Makuta can get past with the enemy to go steal a mask. D-day also had a chance, however slim, of not being killed that day. This was certain end in twenty seconds just so my boss can go steal a Superweapon. With mortal enemy of his who happens to want the Superweapon too. Yeah, that's not going to work - I'm not dying for that. Pass. (Probably just me, though, with my out of universe perspective, though.)Point is, they're not exactly up there on the mental scale. We don't hear Makuta having to waste time lying to Rahkshi - they obey orders without question, and seemingly without any good reason given to them as to why, even in the most unreasonable situations. They aren't good at critical thinking. Makuta probably designed them that way. And lasers cut through things, thus breaking them in pieces. Other than that, I stand very, very corrected.

[bonesiii]

Obviously there's a huge difference between the Rahkshi marching (although, do we know it was totally without question?) and D-Day. The best of them would naturally question it. But do we know the Rahkshi didn't? The point I was raising for comparison is that marching to your deaths doesn't disprove sapience, which does seem comparable to me. There are actually worse examples in even older wars, where it was virtually guaranteed that if you march forward in the front lines you were shot down, and you just had to accept the sacrifice, often without even trying to hide behind something. At least on D-Day there was some confusion and barricades and the like to give some chance of some surviving.

 

Anywho. Food for da thunksies.

 

Point is, they're not exactly up there on the mental scale. We don't hear Makuta having to waste time lying to Rahkshi - they obey orders without question

Yet there are parallels with humans here too. A highly loyal mob family for example (at least according to TV lol). It seems to me that's more a function of intensity of loyalty, which is built into Rahkshi but trainable in others, than intelligence per se.

 

They do seem good at critical thinking compared to many animals, is my point. Not usually as much as Matoran, but seemingly somewhere "along the way" to it. And by the way, they get smarter as they proceed through the levels. BS01 says of Shadow Kraata:

 

They are the most intelligent of the Kraata stages, having intelligence on par with that of a Matoran or Toa; they are even capable of speaking the Matoran language.

 

So, most Rahkshi encountered are like a small child; capable of more advanced thought (but still perfect loyalty, albeit to a bad guy) but not yet experienced enough for it to have developed.

Edited May 31, 2013 by bonesiii

[Sir Kohran]

 

Which I bring up because as far as I can tell, it's possible there are multiple circle-like things in the movie portrayal of the setting and Turahk might have actually been on a separate one, but really unsure of this.

 

Just so it's clear, there's an aerial shot that establishes the setting. There's only one sandpit, that Jaller and Takua remain on until the scene's end:

 

 

 

 

I'm actually not entirely sure where in that printscreen he is, but I assume it's that bit of yellow and red at Takanuva's feet (toward the "camera"),

 

I'm certain that's meant to be him.

 

 

Where the Turahk was at that point is unclear. After throwing Jaller, two Toa jump up, presumably to distract it while the whole death and transformation scene goes on.

 

Turahk gets onto the Amaja circle from the direction of the land, and Takua and Jaller run across the Amaja circle towards the bridge (on which three Rahkshi were trapped in glass):

 

 

 

I can't make out anything to indicate exactly where Takua is fear-frozen and Jaller sacrifices himself, but after the latter is thrown, he lands at the bridge connection of the Amaja circle. When Takua becomes Takanuva, he's facing nearly 90 degrees from the bridge:

 

 

 

Takanuva doesn't turn or step from this position when he shoots at Turahk:

 

 

This should put Turahk on the left side of the screenshot I posted. However, things get complicated...

 

 

Then Takanuva stuns the Turahk, facing directly ahead toward the camera (not the same angle as this printscreen), and turns to his left to fire the laser seen in the printscreen.

 

If Takanuva was facing nearly 90 degrees from the bridge, then turned left, he'd be looking down the bridge. Yet when he fires for the second time, he's shown (in my screenshot) shooting in the opposite direction of the bridge and Jaller's body. So I can't really decide which side of the Amaja circle Turahk should be on.

 

 

That should put Turahk some distance between Takanuva and the Toa, methinks, in the printscreen. And what is there is unclear; there's rubble, some dark patches where Turahk might have fallen, and some odd shape on the edge of the circle I can't make out, either in your brightened version or stopping the vid myself there. That might be Turahk.

 

I think if Turahk's body was in the shot, it'd be easy to make out. Rahkshi are much larger than Matoran, so if Jaller's body can be seen, Turahk's should be too.

 

 

Or perhaps after killing Jaller, he moved around a bit fighting Toa, and was simply out of frame for that printscreened shot, perhaps slightly below (from our POV) the Toa. The brief scene showing Takanuva's attack hitting him had him on the edge of the Amaja circle, though, so I doubt this one.

 

Turahk is clearly stood just within the Amaja circle when he's hit.

 

 

Another factor is that earlier it seems that there's a bridge going to the circle, and a sharp dropoff right next to it. Turahk might have fallen down this ravine or whatever it was in the moments between being stunned and the switch to that printscreened moment.

 

What would've knocked him down there? The beam of light doesn't appear to force him backwards at all, however painful he finds it.

[bonesiii]

I was thinking that after the light effect would fade (offscreen) he might fall then. Sometimes effects like that happen with electrocution; maybe shadow beings who are stunned with light behave like that.

 

Yeah, noticed that about Takanuva seemingly being faced the wrong way.

 

Maybe the bottom line is that the movie producers just played fast and loose with the setting based on whatever they felt looked best. They certainly seemed to with the size. So maybe the aspects of these scenes that weren't made directly obvious aren't meant to imply anything at all other than "somewhere here."

 

 

 

Another thing I've noticed just now is that when Takua actually puts on the mask, there's a brief glimpse of the entire top of the circle other than maybe half a foot or so on the viewer's left, and there's nothing else around at all. The Rahkshi that were frozen could be hidden behind Takua in that angle, but the glass column isn't visible, nor Turahk, nor the Toa. So... Turahk already mysteriously disappears before Takua's even a Toa. Maybe they just forgot him.

 

If we wanna rescue the scene, I'd lean towards the Toa luring him off the circle (to the viewer's right as seen from the bridge side), offscreen. Not sure if the exact angles of everything are possible to match up, but that's minor.

 

Or we could just say, "Somehow."

[slifer3000]

Ugh... I really need to read time trap now...

[Toa Zaz]

The Ussanui set uses six of the Rahkshi torso pieces, so I think the intention was that it was made from all six of them. Also, I think I recall in Mask of Light, Takanuva encased Turahk in, like, a gold shell or something. Like what Makuta did to the Karzahni plant.

[Chro]

Zaz, I don't know if the set would be a great literal representation of that- the designers were likely justusing parts that looked good and fit well, etc., not exactly six of these or less than two of that. (I could be wrong, who knows. Scratch that, bonesiii might. )

 

Anywho. Food for da thunksies.

I think I'm saving this quote.

[Sir Kohran]

I got distracted from the matter I wanted to address, so I'll try and get back to it:

 

It seems established that Rahkshi are living beings - so are they capable of dying? Does taking them apart and building a machine out of them amount to killing them?

[bonesiii]

Zaz, I don't know if the set would be a great literal representation of that- the designers were likely justusing parts that looked good and fit well, etc., not exactly six of these or less than two of that. (I could be wrong, who knows. Scratch that, bonesiii might. )

 

Anywho. Food for da thunksies.

I think I'm saving this quote.

At the very least it's evidence. If the set uses six of the parts that each Rahkshi only has one of, that could be taken as a representation of six Rahkshi suits being used. Certainly not proof though; the Ussanui set also use several parts that aren't in Rahkshi sets.

 

I got distracted from the matter I wanted to address, so I'll try and get back to it:

 

It seems established that Rahkshi are living beings - so are they capable of dying? Does taking them apart and building a machine out of them amount to killing them?

My impression is that technically the Makuta themselves are basically killing one Kraata when they submerge it into energized protodermis, which transforms it into the suit. 95% sure it's been confirmed that the suit is then dead, on its own. Then a second Kraata enters the suit to control it.

 

If a Toa then kills the controller Kraata, that is killing a living being (the questions there are how advanced the being is and what level of advancement is low enough to be okay to kill, if any, by the Toa Code -- for the latter I would lean towards anything with a brain being preferred not to kill). If they don't kill that Kraata (and it seems to me that none of these six Kraata were killed), then whatever they do to the suit should be irrelevant because the other six Kraata that made the six Rahkshi suits already died.

 

Another interesting point is that if you just say "A Toa killed a Rahkshi", what does that mean? I presume it really means "A Toa killed a Kraata inside Rahkshi armor". But in a more poetic sense (like killing a car), they might destroy a suit, so what's left is not "Rahkshi."

[Katuko]

Another interesting point is that if you just say "A Toa killed a Rahkshi", what does that mean? I presume it really means "A Toa killed a Kraata inside Rahkshi armor". But in a more poetic sense (like killing a car), they might destroy a suit, so what's left is not "Rahkshi."

Yeah, I agree. If you shatter the armor suit somehow, I would call that "destroying" a Rahkshi. "Killing" implies to me that you also get rid of the Kraata within, given that the Rahkshi armor itself is not alive anymore. Then again, it is possible to use the word "kill" about machinery (killing an engine, for example, or killing the lights), though if you had an organic part in the device as well I think most people would make sure to make a distinction in order to not confuse anyone.

[ToaKapura1234]

Yes but Tahu kills a ton of Kraata with the golden armor and nothing is ever said about him breaking the Toa Code, so I think that they just consider Kraata extensions of the Makuta's will and not individual beings, thus making it okay to kill them.

[Katuko]

Yes but Tahu kills a ton of Kraata with the golden armor and nothing is ever said about him breaking the Toa Code, so I think that they just consider Kraata extensions of the Makuta's will and not individual beings, thus making it okay to kill them.

He didn't know the exact power of the Golden Armor either, so even if his actions broke the Toa Code, he wouldn't be held directly responsible for the killings. Given the sheer gravity of the situation, I don't think anyone would really care if Tahu made the decision to kill the Rahkshi for them anyways.

[bonesiii]

Yeah, that was covered pretty conclusively in recent topics -- Tahu didn't know he was about to kill. He just knew the Great Beings, who he'd been encouraged to trust, had ordered it, and there was no choice anyways. And the story pretty much cut off soon after that; who knows, he might have regretted it and the story might have later had time to delve into that.

 

There were plenty of other instances when Toa had opportunities to kill Kraata and didn't -- plus, the Turaga of Mata Nui should still follow the code and they captured hundreds of Kraata rather than killing them.

 

Edit: Also, the Toa Code says nothing about "individual beings" -- it just says "don't kill". Let's not assume there are exceptions we have no evidence for. And if that is something like mind control, then does a target of a Kanohi Komau stop being an individual and therefore be okay to kill? Obviously not. As I said, when a Rahkshi has no mission from its master it will behave like a wild animal, complete with self-preservation. It will have unique experiences, memories, and learned skills besides its power usage, most likely. So it would be very hard to prove it's not an individual even if that was the dividing line.

Edited June 1, 2013 by bonesiii

[slifer3000]

Yes but Tahu kills a ton of Kraata with the golden armor and nothing is ever said about him breaking the Toa Code, so I think that they just consider Kraata extensions of the Makuta's will and not individual beings, thus making it okay to kill them.

Killing Makuta isn't looked highly upon either, Look at Zariah, he basically retired because he did it.

[slifer3000]

 

I don't recall Turahk being vaporized. All six Kraata were available to put in the Ussanui, so I don't see how that's possible. They were just stunned, if memory serves. Also it would seem highly unlikely that light is capable of vaporizing, since it only has heat as a small side product.

 

Perhaps 'vaporising' was the wrong word. I don't know what to call it, but right after Takua becomes Takanuva, he does this to Turahk:

 

I know this thread has kinda served its purpose, but I have a new find.

 

In the Rahkshi CD's, in the voice folder, MP3 file 7t22-1, it says that the Avohkii can freeze an opponent in a spectacular column of light, most likely referring to what he did to Turahk. It is probably an allusion to MoL bc later in the CD, it says that Takanuva can use his spear to scoop up and hurl spheres of light energy, referring to the battle against Makuta.

[Sir Kohran]

 

 

Perhaps 'vaporising' was the wrong word. I don't know what to call it, but right after Takua becomes Takanuva, he does this to Turahk:

 

I know this thread has kinda served its purpose, but I have a new find.

 

In the Rahkshi CD's, in the voice folder, MP3 file 7t22-1, it says that the Avohkii can freeze an opponent in a spectacular column of light, most likely referring to what he did to Turahk. It is probably an allusion to MoL bc later in the CD, it says that Takanuva can use his spear to scoop up and hurl spheres of light energy, referring to the battle against Makuta.

 

Well, Takanuva does this with his staff, not the Avohkii. Also, what is pictured is a beam (travelling horizontally). I don't see a "spectacular column" (columns are almost always vertical) at any point.

 

Anyhow, I brought up the Turahk bit to ask whether that counts as a Toa killing something. The response seemed to be that it isn't killing if the Kraata survives. We don't actually know if it did, but there's nothing saying it didn't, so it can't definitely be called killing.

[ToaKapura1234]

I just remembered something. In the Kingdom Tanma and Matoro are killing Kraata left and right and Takanuva doesn't seem to mind. So again, I believe Kraata are an exception to the code and they would just consider a Kraata a part of a Makuta instead of a unique being.

[slifer3000]

Well I assume it's like killing a Rahi. Nothing really wrong with it, like hunting, but you don't want to kill it for no reason.

[Tabby: Toa of Cats]

I work with animation software (i.e. Blender) and there's one other reason that they might reduce power usage to "next to nothing."

It's because effects like these take time to make, and can often up rendering time. No doubt, the more rendering time, the higher the animation budget has to be. Rendering also likely was slower and cost more than today, since computers were older and slower and the software was not as good at the time.

 

All of this is just best guessing from an animation novice, but I think it makes sense.