As I said also in the post you quoted, the unreasonable width of the Inika torso is a myth. It is the same width as that of the Metru torso, and almost exactly the same height. As I pointed out, the difference is that the shoulders are actually solid rather than being separated from the body from an awkwardly thin rod and bushing.

A thinner torso would be OK, but I see no reason why it is essential when this width has remained fairly constant for some time. As for a more custom torso, I acknowledge that such could be more versatile in the hands of a capable MOCist, but a simpler torso is more versatile in the hands of casual MOCists (i.e. those who are not a great part of the online MOCist community), as well as sets with limited piece count. I can pretty much guarantee that, if presented with a custom torso, several casual MOCists would merely replicate it exactly to make Toamods with limited difference in armor styles.

Note also that, as I point out all the time, we have almost exactly as many new pieces with the canister set series of today as with any series of the past save for some more meager quantities for the Vahki, Bohrok-Kal, and Visorak. Rarely is a new torso introduced on a series of non-cloned sets-- see the Toa Inika, the Toa Metru, the Bohrok, the Rahkshi, etc. Would you prefer another set of clone sets just to get a new torso? To be fair, the Makuta Phantoka did introduce a new torso with relatively creative builds otherwise, although this is the only instance in memory of such an event taking place.

Nice to get back to some classic debates. And goodness knows I would not mind a new torso-- I just am not inclined to think of such as essential when I am very comfortable experimenting with the Inika torso and savoring the sets which put it to good use.

Yes, surely. I don't mind if we see armour reused (of course not too much).

I had to do a little picture digging (since I'm not near my Bionicle pieces) and perhaps you are right about the shoulder width between Inika and Toa Metru. However, I don't quite feel that the two are at equal comparison levels, due to looks and build. Probably the biggest flaw with the Metru shoulders was the arms sticking out and not having a full range of motion. But I do feel they still stuck out a tad.

Did we complain back then? I think so, but as other MOCs show, it is easier to work around that problem when trying to find new ways to connect arms to it.

To me, idealy, I'll state again, a 9 stud wide torso would be nice (I guess 7 studs wide would make the arms brush up agains the body).

On the 11 stud wide shoulders, While "this width has remained fairly constant for some time," said you, it does not mean that it is perfect. Do you think the Toa would look better with a slightly shorter shoulder width? Because I do, as I keep saying. I know there was a recent argument about Bionicle not needing human proportions, but when the arms stick out in such a manner (or wider on Kongu/Pohatu), it does, IMO, become ridiculous.

Yes, a new torso that consists of a few more pieces to actually be built might just mean we keep seeing that instead, but perhaps it might inspire people to realize they can actually build their torsos?

On that note, let me ask you this: Why stay a "casual MOCist" instead of trying new things out and experimenting with the actual build of the Lego system? Lego is very much about building and I am always saddened when I hear that people do not want to build. (Yes, when I was young I did not build as much and would role play, but then I grew out of role playing I decided to take a chance. My first custom bodies were not much, but look at me now. Plus, there's plenty of inspiration from the better MOCists.) Which is why it is silly sometimes to walk into the BBC, becuse it is a lot of "Toa Inika" to put it simply, and the only way to get away from this is to encourage actual building. Practice makes perfect. (I hate building Rahi heads but that didn't stop me from building one for Crustaceous.)

Clone sets/new torsos/variations with old torsos:

Yes, personally I am willing to get a series of clone sets again (like the Inika) to get a new body and maybe a new leg (like the Inika). And I'll tell you why:

I am not the biggest complainer of clone sets. It keeps things uniform, and until Voya Nui we had always had the same body with each set of 6. The Bohrok Kal are probably the biggest disappointment due to being a carbon copy. But we haven't seen any new leg pieces or major variations on armor (Gali Mistika, Makuta Mistika, anything else? Some stuff this summer.) and we still keep the same bodies. Sure, the 2008 Makuta, I guess, but that is tricky for TLG to use everywhere, as you pointed out the variations of the Makuta using them.

What I'm getting at is I think TLG is already reusing enough pieces that they can afford to keep doing that and instead give us a new body; I would obviously hope one that is 9 studs wide. There is enough armor and limb pieces out there that can be used to create a sense of non-cloneness. Or maybe they can give us a new leg piece and keep some uniformity (without giving us the drab bley or silver you liked to point out last year).

However, this is just my opinion.

OK, that sounded like an attack, and I reread your last paragraph. So..you said you didn't think it is essential, but would like one. I've told you I think TLG can give us a new torso and keep old pieces as long as they make them interesting (new colors, old pieces), so what are your thoughts on what I've said and what you think?

Please tell me if I didn't address something or am mistaken in what I thought you said.

-CF

I had to do a little picture digging (since I'm not near my Bionicle pieces) and perhaps you are right about the shoulder width between Inika and Toa Metru. However, I don't quite feel that the two are at equal comparison levels, due to looks and build. Probably the biggest flaw with the Metru shoulders was the arms sticking out and not having a full range of motion. But I do feel they still stuck out a tad.

Did we complain back then? I think so, but as other MOCs show, it is easier to work around that problem when trying to find new ways to connect arms to it.

 

To me, idealy, I'll state again, a 9 stud wide torso would be nice (I guess 7 studs wide would make the arms brush up agains the body).

 

On the 11 stud wide shoulders, While "this width has remained fairly constant for some time," said you, it does not mean that it is perfect. Do you think the Toa would look better with a slightly shorter shoulder width? Because I do, as I keep saying. I know there was a recent argument about Bionicle not needing human proportions, but when the arms stick out in such a manner (or wider on Kongu/Pohatu), it does, IMO, become ridiculous.

I don't think it's ridiculous. In fact, I like it. It provides variety from the norm, and I have never ascribed to the notion that BIONICLE sets should have realistic or even near-realistic proportions. Certainly it would be a hindrance to poseability if the lower legs were twelve times as long as the upper legs or vice-versa (I have seen several regrettable MOCs like this), but BIONICLE's exaggeration remains within reason. Rather than looking apelike, IMO, wider shoulders and longer limbs lend a broader range for poseability, making a simple punching or running pose that much more dynamic.

In short, I like sometimes defying the proportions of sets when MOCing, but BIONICLE gets a fair amount of its distinctive look from a lack of realism.

Yes, a new torso that consists of a few more pieces to actually be built might just mean we keep seeing that instead, but perhaps it might inspire people to realize they can actually build their torsos?

 

On that note, let me ask you this: Why stay a "casual MOCist" instead of trying new things out and experimenting with the actual build of the Lego system? Lego is very much about building and I am always saddened when I hear that people do not want to build. (Yes, when I was young I did not build as much and would role play, but then I grew out of role playing I decided to take a chance. My first custom bodies were not much, but look at me now. Plus, there's plenty of inspiration from the better MOCists.) Which is why it is silly sometimes to walk into the BBC, becuse it is a lot of "Toa Inika" to put it simply, and the only way to get away from this is to encourage actual building. Practice makes perfect. (I hate building Rahi heads but that didn't stop me from building one for Crustaceous.)

A company that plans to make money can't just hope that builders will strive more than is natural. Some people buy BIONICLE figures for their action-figure-like poseability and versatility, or even for the fun of building. I personally buy many for the beauty of the sets themselves, and only occasionally take my sets apart to MOC with them. Not all MOCists or buyers have to have the intent of producing art with their sets, and by making torsos more complex you're putting a strain on those who don't. And if you are of the belief that LEGO should not appeal to those who crave action figures and simple builds, bear in mind that the only reason they do is because that was the audience which bought the most sets from the beginning.

Clone sets/new torsos/variations with old torsos:

Yes, personally I am willing to get a series of clone sets again (like the Inika) to get a new body and maybe a new leg (like the Inika). And I'll tell you why:

I am not the biggest complainer of clone sets. It keeps things uniform, and until Voya Nui we had always had the same body with each set of 6. The Bohrok Kal are probably the biggest disappointment due to being a carbon copy. But we haven't seen any new leg pieces or major variations on armor (Gali Mistika, Makuta Mistika, anything else? Some stuff this summer.) and we still keep the same bodies. Sure, the 2008 Makuta, I guess, but that is tricky for TLG to use everywhere, as you pointed out the variations of the Makuta using them.

What I'm getting at is I think TLG is already reusing enough pieces that they can afford to keep doing that and instead give us a new body; I would obviously hope one that is 9 studs wide. There is enough armor and limb pieces out there that can be used to create a sense of non-cloneness. Or maybe they can give us a new leg piece and keep some uniformity (without giving us the drab bley or silver you liked to point out last year).

 

However, this is just my opinion.

I understand that, though I think it would be silly to just design new limbs because people got tired of the old ones. Unless LEGO can improve on them, there's no money in such a move-- it would be appealing only to older fans who had been collecting since whenever-that-part-came-out. Why should LEGO cycle in and out of pieces when they can instead focus on parts like weapons or masks that are indicative of single characters, or launchers that offer variety in play value. Kids can make their sets move without a gear function, but replicating a long-range launcher's actions by hand is not something many kids are keen on doing (Remember, kids, throwing LEGO around is never a good idea).

Another trouble with clone sets is that you're counting on collectors or color-scheme-crazy MOCists being the only ones to buy more than one in a set. The chance of someone buying a full set of six when they are mostly identical is dismal, particularly considering the current economy and some people lacking a large budget for toys.

Armor and limb variation can provide variety in new sets, but as the price goes up so does the reluctance to buy. Small sets with different limbs might be able to look distinct enough from past years' to merit a purchase (I'm looking at you here, Agori). But suppose you were to release Hahli Mahri with a new torso piece instead of fins. Suddenly there's not much good which can be said of the set, no matter what limbs and armor you chose to use. Making the sets newer isn't often worth the cost of making them individual.

And how long should LEGO use this new body, and for what? Clearly, if the Inika torso is to be seen as a Bad Thing, a torso should be limited to one or two series of canister sets and then never be used again. That's how the Mata torso, the Metru torso, the Rahkshi... err... construction, and the Bohrok torso saw it happen (although at least the Bohrok torso got some minor use in the large sets of 2002).

I'll just skim over the bley/silver issue since you had to bring it up: Distinctifying and unifying the teams while still allowing for varied physiques within each. If 2009 had such a clear-cut "good team/bad team" system then by all means I'd be lamenting the loss of this stylistic system.

OK, that sounded like an attack, and I reread your last paragraph. So..you said you didn't think it is essential, but would like one. I've told you I think TLG can give us a new torso and keep old pieces as long as they make them interesting (new colors, old pieces), so what are your thoughts on what I've said and what you think?

 

Please tell me if I didn't address something or am mistaken in what I thought you said.

 

-CF

I didn't take it as an attack; sometimes I make fun of my own vigilance on certain issues (not like such self-ridicule can convince me to submit to the dreaded Other Side ).

As I said, no, I would not mind a new torso. Nevertheless, I have to assume it is unnecessary when I can't think of a single way the Inika torso could be very much improved (yes, thinner torsos or some other aesthetic change might alleviate minor qualms, but it's not going to make me all giddy over a new set unless it's got something else to make it worthwhile). The Inika torso is a fun piece to experiment with for any style of MOC-- if I want to make an MOC that's roughly the size of a canister set it's a piece I'm quick to grab (second only to a waist piece, which anything short of a completely custom torso design is well-advised to utilize). And with that, I think I'll conclude this post-- Dad is about to take me to get my new glasses, and when I start offering aesthetic advice to MOC torsos rather than MOCists (reread the last sentence a few times and see if it doesn't elicit a ) it's definitely time to wrap things up. =P

I think my problem right now is that I realize it <i>does</i> offer a range of motion, as I said I do use it to see how a Toa will look, roughly, but I don't think it looks the best. Lego can do better, and that is why I keep stressing the point.

Building: Yes, but I must at list bring it up. Building is core, IMO.

Yeah, I said we didn't need new limbs. But then I go and offer perhaps getting some new ones. Oops. I guess I could swing either way, as my previous statements have shown.

On that note, it's good that we've actually been seeing stuff like that, most noticably in the Agori's weapons: same, slightly old, but recollored.

Ah, yes, a variety in figures' looks for the collectors. Fine. And yeah, it's funny how those fins make Hahli Mahri suddenly a consideration to buy. (Also, she had pure dark blue Inika stuff, instead of being marbled. That was a plus.)

"not like such self-ridicule can convince me to submit to the dreaded Other Side"

Are you saying you think me apologizing is trying to make you feel sorry for me or something? I'm not trying anything like that....

Here's another idea/view I just had:

Lego constantly thinks of their target audience. So, let us say, that there is a member of that audience with some Toa Inika. He's been following the Bionicle story ever since. For a few years now he keeps getting a torso like the Inika one, but recollored and maybe pieced slightly differently. Do you think by now he would want something else, since each person looks slightly similar?

Something I would like if Lego is not going to change the Inika torso anytime soon: a new chest armor piece. Just think about it.

-CF

*is tired, and confused*

I think my problem right now is that I realize it does offer a range of motion, as I said I do use it to see how a Toa will look, roughly, but I don't think it looks the best. Lego can do better, and that is why I keep stressing the point.

They can do it better, but they so far have chosen not to expand that to the canister-set level. Even I have to admit they are capable of more complex builds, as is made evident in the irreparably color-scheme-challenged but still impressive combiner models they put forth. The Pit War Tortoise impresses me to this day (and exemplifies what in a gentler color scheme could pass as a form-based build, as I described below).

Actually, after that parenthetical note, it might help for me to point out that I'm replying to these points in a pretty much random order, so at this point, I've addressed most of your post already. =P Just explaining in case my post ends up sounding jumpy or confusing.

Building: Yes, but I must at list bring it up. Building is core, IMO.

 

Yeah, I said we didn't need new limbs. But then I go and offer perhaps getting some new ones. Oops. I guess I could swing either way, as my previous statements have shown.

On that note, it's good that we've actually been seeing stuff like that, most noticably in the Agori's weapons: same, slightly old, but recollored.

 

Ah, yes, a variety in figures' looks for the collectors. Fine. And yeah, it's funny how those fins make Hahli Mahri suddenly a consideration to buy. (Also, she had pure dark blue Inika stuff, instead of being marbled. That was a plus.)

Yeah, dark blue parts are actually incredibly useful. Or maybe that's just for me since my little bro gets most of the blue sets and has (or had) trouble keeping them together sometimes.

And recolors are always a plus-- at least, most of the time. The light blue firesword in Berix was a pleasing touch, given how often I'd considered reusing parts with fire motifs as water-element weapons.

The "building is core" concept lets me point out another thing-- a lot of very talented MOCists have mastered "form-based" building, where the overall shape of the resulting MOC is critical, and part details become little more than what would be considered "greebles" on a System MOC. This can afford to be a bit more Technic-ish, particularly when it comes to custom torsos, so long as it doesn't reduce the figure to chunky rectangles. (To my disappointment, of course, it is often a style applied to revamps, where it may or may not lose part of the set's feel by avoiding the same part styles.) Some sets are form-based-- examples include Brutaka or the Kardas Dragon.

At the canister-set level, however, most official sets are detail-based-- using stylistic consistency to bring out the beauty of certain pieces. Good examples of this include Malum and Gorast. Because the styles of the parts match, those styles stand out, giving the set a unique look it might otherwise need several never-before-released armor pieces to establish. (Here's one of those things I ridicule-- I find myself obsessing over stylistic consistency a fair deal, but I can scarcely imagine many good set designs without it.)

"not like such self-ridicule can convince me to submit to the dreaded Other Side"

Are you saying you think me apologizing is trying to make you feel sorry for me or something? I'm not trying anything like that....

Here's another idea/view I just had:

Lego constantly thinks of their target audience. So, let us say, that there is a member of that audience with some Toa Inika. He's been following the Bionicle story ever since. For a few years now he keeps getting a torso like the Inika one, but recollored and maybe pieced slightly differently. Do you think by now he would want something else, since each person looks slightly similar?

 

Something I would like if Lego is not going to change the Inika torso anytime soon: a new chest armor piece. Just think about it.

 

-CF

*is tired, and confused*

I disagree. When I first saw the Toa Metru, my first thoughts were something along the lines of "What? These aren't Toa!" It was especially jarring given the overall more dynamic, advanced look of the Toa Metru, which was in my eyes at odds with the notion that these were earlier Toa. But that was a chaotic year-- the story's first real maelstrom like those that typically accompany revolutionary new concepts in BIONICLE's sets. I felt the same way when the Toa Inika were released-- although I loved and still love their masks a great deal, their torsos, limbs, and other armor were ridiculously advanced in style compared to the relatively simpler Metru designs. We have not had another maelstrom of that sort since then, and of course having fared so poorly in those two I don't know how well my or any fan's faith in BIONICLE might hold during another.

Speaking of chest armor pieces, I realized recently that Mata Nui might have been immensely superior to the current design if he had used a Jaller Mahri torso armor piece. It has good stylistic consistency with his blade/shoulder armor pieces as well as the Matoro Mahri armor on his thighs. And as a bonus, his torso can look a bit better than what is essentially a sloppier rendition of the style Onua used effectively in 2008. I prefer a reused style to a slightly-modified version that really doesn't improve at all-- I thought the same of Nuparu Mahri's torso, which looked fairly askew compared to the armor which had preceded it.