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A Minor Theory about Toa Seals and the Nuva Cube


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#1 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 02:53 AM

...that started off as an attempt to unequivocally define the purpose of the Nuva Cube, before widening in scope to become a theory about how Mata Nui determines a being's destiny, which then morphed back into the Nuva Cube thing, before whittling down into this.Anyway.My "theory" is targeted at a problem that I see with the nature of the Nuva Cube. First, some facts:1) The Nuva Cube and the Nuva Symbols were crafted by Artakha who, according to Greg, created said objects because he "knew they had the potential to exist." (And no, I don't have the quote on hand, but I can retrieve it if anyone wishes.)2) The Nuva Cube acted as a sort of "lock" in relation to the Toa Seal around the Bahrag. However, it was not absolutely necessary in order to free the Bahrag, as the Toa Nuva broke the Seal with just their Elemental Powers prior to the Karda Nui arc.3) Toa Seals can only be broken by exposing them to the same six Elemental Powers that created them. Presumably, this is very specific in that the Elements involved must stem from the same exact Toa that created the Seal.4) Toa Seals seem to retain the exact properties of their creators' own Elemental Powers. BS01 confirms that had the Toa Inika created a Toa Seal, it would have been laced with electricity just like their Elemental Powers.5) The Seal around the Bahrag was created while the Toa Nuva were still Toa Mata.Now, the problem that I see with the Nuva Cube is that it was "keyed in" to the Seal around the Bahrag. However, we do not know how the Nuva Cube would react if the Toa Nuva were to create another Toa Seal either while the Bahrag Seal still existed or after that Bahrag Seal had already been broken. Would it work just as well with the other Seal? Or is the Nuva Cube connected exclusively to the Bahrag Seal?Better yet, why is the Cube connected to the Bahrag Seal, if the Nuva weren't even Nuva when they made it?Well, first, let's settle a few quick matters by making a couple of educated guesses.1) In order for my theory to work, we must assume that Artakha created the Nuva Cube and the Nuva Symbols using materials provided by the Great Beings. Artakha created the Mata themselves using GB-provided materials, so this wouldn't be too much of a stretch in the first place. However, Greg stated that Artakha "knew the Nuva had the potential to exist." This, to me, suggests that Artakha had some knowledge of the Toa Mata's destiny to transform. This is slightly more of a stretch, but seeing as how the GBs provided Artakha with the materials to create the Mata, it would make sense for them to have provided some sort of instructions that may have detailed the Mata's eventual transformation--surely the Great Beings, of all people, would have such information.2) As a second prerequisite for my theory, we must also assume that the nature of the Nuva's Toa Seal corresponded to their Elemental Powers, in the same way that the hypothetical Inika Seal would have been electrified. What this means is that, since the Bahrag Seal was created by the Mata, it too transformed when the Mata became the Nuva. And what that suggests is that it became a stronger-than-average Toa Seal that would only respond to the augmented Elemental Powers of the Toa Nuva. Now, this may seem a bit unnecessary at first glance, but thinking about it, it does make some sense. Technically speaking, the Elemental Powers of the Toa Mata are not the same as those of the Toa Nuva. Ergo, the Mata Seal would likely be unaffected by the Elemental Powers of the Nuva.Now, as for my actual theory. I propose that the Elemental Power any Toa who has engaged in the creation of a Toa Seal can only be a component of one Toa Seal at a time. In order to create a second Seal, the first one must be broken. This prevents two types of overlapping scenarios:1) Two Nuva Seals existing simultaneously (which relieves the issue of which Seal the Cube is keyed into), and2) A Toa Nuva partaking in the creation of two separate Seals; i.e. Gali Nuva seals the Bahrag with the Nuva and, say, a Skakdi with the Toa Mahri (which is supported by the idea that the Elements involved are very specific and also prevents the Cube from having to correspond to two Seals at once).Now, as for the Nuva Cube's actual purpose? Well, I believe that Artakha simply created it as a failsafe (you know those Great Beings and their unparalleled love for "failsafes"), should the Toa Nuva be unavailable to break a Seal themselves. This would also enable them to still break a Seal in the event that one or more of their number is missing.So, thoughts?

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 26 2012 - 02:54 AM.

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#2 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 08:05 AM

...that started off as an attempt to unequivocally define the purpose of the Nuva Cube, before widening in scope to become a theory about how Mata Nui determines a being's destiny, which then morphed back into the Nuva Cube thing, before whittling down into this.Anyway.My "theory" is targeted at a problem that I see with the nature of the Nuva Cube. First, some facts:1) The Nuva Cube and the Nuva Symbols were crafted by Artakha who, according to Greg, created said objects because he "knew they had the potential to exist." (And no, I don't have the quote on hand, but I can retrieve it if anyone wishes.)2) The Nuva Cube acted as a sort of "lock" in relation to the Toa Seal around the Bahrag. However, it was not absolutely necessary in order to free the Bahrag, as the Toa Nuva broke the Seal with just their Elemental Powers prior to the Karda Nui arc.3) Toa Seals can only be broken by exposing them to the same six Elemental Powers that created them. Presumably, this is very specific in that the Elements involved must stem from the same exact Toa that created the Seal.4) Toa Seals seem to retain the exact properties of their creators' own Elemental Powers. BS01 confirms that had the Toa Inika created a Toa Seal, it would have been laced with electricity just like their Elemental Powers.5) The Seal around the Bahrag was created while the Toa Nuva were still Toa Mata.Now, the problem that I see with the Nuva Cube is that it was "keyed in" to the Seal around the Bahrag. However, we do not know how the Nuva Cube would react if the Toa Nuva were to create another Toa Seal either while the Bahrag Seal still existed or after that Bahrag Seal had already been broken. Would it work just as well with the other Seal? Or is the Nuva Cube connected exclusively to the Bahrag Seal?Better yet, why is the Cube connected to the Bahrag Seal, if the Nuva weren't even Nuva when they made it?Well, first, let's settle a few quick matters by making a couple of educated guesses.1) In order for my theory to work, we must assume that Artakha created the Nuva Cube and the Nuva Symbols using materials provided by the Great Beings. Artakha created the Mata themselves using GB-provided materials, so this wouldn't be too much of a stretch in the first place. However, Greg stated that Artakha "knew the Nuva had the potential to exist." This, to me, suggests that Artakha had some knowledge of the Toa Mata's destiny to transform. This is slightly more of a stretch, but seeing as how the GBs provided Artakha with the materials to create the Mata, it would make sense for them to have provided some sort of instructions that may have detailed the Mata's eventual transformation--surely the Great Beings, of all people, would have such information.2) As a second prerequisite for my theory, we must also assume that the nature of the Nuva's Toa Seal corresponded to their Elemental Powers, in the same way that the hypothetical Inika Seal would have been electrified. What this means is that, since the Bahrag Seal was created by the Mata, it too transformed when the Mata became the Nuva. And what that suggests is that it became a stronger-than-average Toa Seal that would only respond to the augmented Elemental Powers of the Toa Nuva. Now, this may seem a bit unnecessary at first glance, but thinking about it, it does make some sense. Technically speaking, the Elemental Powers of the Toa Mata are not the same as those of the Toa Nuva. Ergo, the Mata Seal would likely be unaffected by the Elemental Powers of the Nuva.Now, as for my actual theory. I propose that the Elemental Power any Toa who has engaged in the creation of a Toa Seal can only be a component of one Toa Seal at a time. In order to create a second Seal, the first one must be broken. This prevents two types of overlapping scenarios:1) Two Nuva Seals existing simultaneously (which relieves the issue of which Seal the Cube is keyed into), and2) A Toa Nuva partaking in the creation of two separate Seals; i.e. Gali Nuva seals the Bahrag with the Nuva and, say, a Skakdi with the Toa Mahri (which is supported by the idea that the Elements involved are very specific and also prevents the Cube from having to correspond to two Seals at once).Now, as for the Nuva Cube's actual purpose? Well, I believe that Artakha simply created it as a failsafe (you know those Great Beings and their unparalleled love for "failsafes"), should the Toa Nuva be unavailable to break a Seal themselves. This would also enable them to still break a Seal in the event that one or more of their number is missing.So, thoughts?

All of that makes sense to me. There are already limitations on Light and Shadow elements being used to make a Toa Seal (they cancel each other out and thus can't be used together), so other limitations on particular types of Toa forming seals together makes sense. Assuming one of the Nuva was captured, their seal could still be used in the Nuva Cube to free the Bahrag - something absolutely essential to reawakening Mata Nui. The task is so important that a failsafe could not only be necessary, but prudent, which would explain why Artakha created them in advance.I'd note that the Nuva Cube would also be able to easily gather the Symbols in one area if the Nuva went rogue, for instance, although the Cube is apparently still in the Bahrag chamber. There are plenty of failsafe scenarios the Symbols and Cube could be used in. For instance, the Cube could be used so that the seal could be opened in a hurry - to create a Seal, the six Toa must use their powers at pretty much the exact same time. If there were, say, Rahskhi in the chamber and Gali and Pohatu were fighting them, under normal circumstances the Toa Nuva would have to destroy the Rahkshi before freeing the Bahrag. If they had the Cube and their Symbols on hand, however, the other Toa Nuva could still free the imprisoned being with their symbols quickly and efficiently without having to wait.-TN05

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#3 Offline Taipu1

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 10:15 AM

The theory is certainly plausible, but the purpose of the cube being a failsafe in case one of the Nuva is unable to unlock the seal seems a little odd, cruel in one way.If say Pohatu was captured, and they needed to open the seal, they'd take his symbol, and presumably with that his elemental powers. That leaves Pohatu in danger, and powerless. Also would all the symbols have to be used then. Could you unlock the seal by blasting it with 5 powers and putting the last symbol in the cube?
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#4 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 11:42 AM

The theory is certainly plausible, but the purpose of the cube being a failsafe in case one of the Nuva is unable to unlock the seal seems a little odd, cruel in one way.If say Pohatu was captured, and they needed to open the seal, they'd take his symbol, and presumably with that his elemental powers. That leaves Pohatu in danger, and powerless. Also would all the symbols have to be used then. Could you unlock the seal by blasting it with 5 powers and putting the last symbol in the cube?

Pohatu would only loose his power if his symbol were in the possession of somebody who opposes the Toa. If it's an ally, like one of the other Toa Nuva (who I assume would be handling the Symbol in an emergency instance like that), then Pohatu would still be able to access his Elemental Power. :)As for your second point, well, if we believe that the Cube is inherently tied to the Toa Seal, then by putting one Nuva Symbol onto the Cube, you're would still be exposing it to one of its constituent Elements. As such, I would say that yes, you could use both Symbols and Elements.

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#5 Offline The Iron Toa

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 12:32 PM

I'm not certain, but I think Toa Seals must be broken by the same elements that formed them, but not necessarily the same Toa. And the Toa Nuva use the same elemental energy as other Toa, they just have more of it and finer control (at least in some cases), so if that's the case, I think them turning into Nuva is irrelevant.
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#6 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 12:45 PM

I'm not certain, but I think Toa Seals must be broken by the same elements that formed them, but not necessarily the same Toa. And the Toa Nuva use the same elemental energy as other Toa, they just have more of it and finer control (at least in some cases), so if that's the case, I think them turning into Nuva is irrelevant.

I figure that if it were just the same Elements from any Toa, then Roodaka wouldn't have had to throw herself in front of a Rhotuka in order to free Teridax; she could have just found another Fire Toa. The Seals in this theory require the exact same Toa who formed them, so if that's not canon, then we'll just assume that it's another specification in order to facilitate the theory.As for the Nuva's Elemental Control, you have a fair point. However, we know that Tahu, in his current state as a Toa Mata, cannot form a Kaita with the other Toa Nuva, which gives us some evidence to suggest that there are some issues in regards to how the mechanics of Toa Nuva compare to those of regular Toa. Just like how Kanohi Nuva cannot be used by anyone other than the Nuva. Like I said, it's a bit of a stretch. :P

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#7 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 02:15 PM

1) The Nuva Cube and the Nuva Symbols were crafted by Artakha who, according to Greg, created said objects because he "knew they had the potential to exist." (And no, I don't have the quote on hand, but I can retrieve it if anyone wishes.)

By "they" did Greg mean the Toa Nuva? Not the Cube & Symbols I presume? :P

2) The Nuva Cube acted as a sort of "lock" in relation to the Toa Seal around the Bahrag. However, it was not absolutely necessary in order to free the Bahrag, as the Toa Nuva broke the Seal with just their Elemental Powers prior to the Karda Nui arc.

This seems reasonable, but it has occured to me to wonder if that's confirmed. Off the top of my head, I'm not sure they didn't bring the symbols to the cube to unlock it. They would obviously be keenly aware that it could work that way, and might not be certain the normal beam method would work.This need not have an effect on your theory, just sayin'... *researches* Hey that's handy, it's in the book I accidently bought two of, and have the other copy righchere... Okay, clearly a beam, nevermind. :lol:

3) Toa Seals can only be broken by exposing them to the same six Elemental Powers that created them. Presumably, this is very specific in that the Elements involved must stem from the same exact Toa that created the Seal.

I figure that if it were just the same Elements from any Toa, then Roodaka wouldn't have had to throw herself in front of a Rhotuka in order to free Teridax; she could have just found another Fire Toa.

That's a good point, but then what if, say, the Nuva had awoken Mata Nui but not realized they were supposed to free the Bahrag, and Mata Nui says "Me face be dirty yo yo!" and they head off to free them, but one of them dies on the way? Would it not be wise for it to be possible to find another Toa of the same element?Of course, now there's the Red Star for such things... or there was... and the Bahrag weren't supposed to need caged, but yeah.Besides, the difficulty for Roodaka was in painfully cutting out a piece of the cage and encouraging the Toa to shoot at her. Once she did that, does it really matter which Toa she gets to shoot at her? She's unlikely to coerce any Toa into willingly freeing Makuta, so this same basic strategy I think would be needed anyways, and likely she would want to use the Visorak so she's not going up against Toa by herself... so why not use this attack on the same six Toa, who have a clear motive for opposing her personally? They didn't know attacking her would free Makuta.So I don't think that would be a major problem for canon consistency. And if it had to be the same Toa, why would it not be simply stated as such?

4) Toa Seals seem to retain the exact properties of their creators' own Elemental Powers. BS01 confirms that had the Toa Inika created a Toa Seal, it would have been laced with electricity just like their Elemental Powers.

But that was basically a seventh element, or maybe a non-elemental use of electricity, added beyond the six that actually made the protocage. I think the substance of the cage is not determined by the elements that are used to make it; the Inika thing is just like if something touches a live wire it will get a charge in it; the thing in this case happens to be a cage they just made.But again this need not affect your theory, just analyzing as I go. :)

5) The Seal around the Bahrag was created while the Toa Nuva were still Toa Mata.Now, the problem that I see with the Nuva Cube is that it was "keyed in" to the Seal around the Bahrag. However, we do not know how the Nuva Cube would react if the Toa Nuva were to create another Toa Seal either while the Bahrag Seal still existed or after that Bahrag Seal had already been broken. Would it work just as well with the other Seal? Or is the Nuva Cube connected exclusively to the Bahrag Seal?Better yet, why is the Cube connected to the Bahrag Seal, if the Nuva weren't even Nuva when they made it?

So my guess is that where this is headed is that the Cube translates Nuva power into a merged Mata beam? *reads on*

Well, first, let's settle a few quick matters by making a couple of educated guesses.1) In order for my theory to work, we must assume that Artakha created the Nuva Cube and the Nuva Symbols using materials provided by the Great Beings. Artakha created the Mata themselves using GB-provided materials, so this wouldn't be too much of a stretch in the first place. However, Greg stated that Artakha "knew the Nuva had the potential to exist." This, to me, suggests that Artakha had some knowledge of the Toa Mata's destiny to transform. This is slightly more of a stretch, but seeing as how the GBs provided Artakha with the materials to create the Mata, it would make sense for them to have provided some sort of instructions that may have detailed the Mata's eventual transformation--surely the Great Beings, of all people, would have such information.

Where is the bit about the materials from? I didn't see it on the Mata page on BS01. Couldn't that just refer to protodermis? They provided the entire protodermis of the whole MU/giant robot.However, I think everything else in this part makes sense. I might add my cyberclay theory would make explaining that easy; Artakha could read the equivalent of DNA in the coding of the protodermis particles. Or, a non-cyber, molecular system in protodermis may explain it, or something in their brains, or something in Mata Nui's brain, etc. all of which it's possible Artakha could gain access to, or be given it.Or, he may simply extrapolate from what happened if he experimented by dipping various things in Energized Protodermis, and found that dipping masks in producing Kanohi Nuva, and understood their physics and requirement of Toa Nuva. :shrugs:Anywho..

2) As a second prerequisite for my theory, we must also assume that the nature of the Nuva's Toa Seal corresponded to their Elemental Powers, in the same way that the hypothetical Inika Seal would have been electrified.

Just to be clear, I agree this is plausible -- not because the actual elements involved matter IMO (so if one was a Toa of Iron, it wouldn't make a difference in the actual substance), but a universal difference -- like being a Nuva or an Inika -- may still matter.

What this means is that, since the Bahrag Seal was created by the Mata, it too transformed when the Mata became the Nuva. And what that suggests is that it became a stronger-than-average Toa Seal that would only respond to the augmented Elemental Powers of the Toa Nuva.

Ah, I see, you're not going where I thought you were. This is actually the running theory I have had and have posted. I thought where you were headed was that the nature of the Toa only when they made it matters, so it would be a Mata Seal, and they are Toa Nuva, so the cube would translate their Nuva power to a Mata beam.But now you've got me confused again. :P I'm so confused I can't explain why lol... I'll just read on and see what happens...

Now, this may seem a bit unnecessary at first glance, but thinking about it, it does make some sense. Technically speaking, the Elemental Powers of the Toa Mata are not the same as those of the Toa Nuva. Ergo, the Mata Seal would likely be unaffected by the Elemental Powers of the Nuva.

So, you're not necessarily saying this happened, but that Artakha wasn't sure if it would happen? Also I'm still confused because I thought you were saying the Seal transformed when they did, so it's not just a Mata Seal but a Nuva Seal. Here you say Mata Seal... Hm...

I propose that the Elemental Power any Toa who has engaged in the creation of a Toa Seal can only be a component of one Toa Seal at a time. In order to create a second Seal, the first one must be broken. This prevents two types of overlapping scenarios:1) Two Nuva Seals existing simultaneously (which relieves the issue of which Seal the Cube is keyed into), and2) A Toa Nuva partaking in the creation of two separate Seals; i.e. Gali Nuva seals the Bahrag with the Nuva and, say, a Skakdi with the Toa Mahri (which is supported by the idea that the Elements involved are very specific and also prevents the Cube from having to correspond to two Seals at once).

So are you proposing that one group of six Toa can only have one existing protocage at a time? If they trap the Bahrag, and then go out and need to trap some other villain, the second trap would fail?Eh... I don't see why it would be a problem for there to be however many protocages they need to make. The one the freeing beam is shot at -- and the one the Nuva cube is in front of -- is the one that is freed.

Now, as for the Nuva Cube's actual purpose? Well, I believe that Artakha simply created it as a failsafe (you know those Great Beings and their unparalleled love for "failsafes"), should the Toa Nuva be unavailable to break a Seal themselves.

Now despite all my quibbling, I think this part of your theory is a brilliant point, and enough that it deserves some recognition. :)However, I think you've got the reason for the failsafe backwards -- I don't think anything that happens to the Toa who makes the Seal after it's made affects it; I think the cage remained a Mata Seal, and Artakha wasn't certain that Nuva would be able to unlock a Mata Seal.Or to put it into non-personal terms, since I'm pretty sure any Toa of the same element would suffice, I think the cage remained a Toa Seal (did not become a Toa Nuva Seal). So the cube would translate the Toa Nuva power to Toa power, just in case it wouldn't work. However, it did work, and proved unnecessary -- but the Kal took advantage of it anyways.But, I could easily be wrong; the Seal might have changed with them.If you're right that Seals can change types if the Toa who made them change types, then this could provide another reason for Roodaka to need the Hordika's power. When they were turned to Hordika, the Toa Seal could turn into a Toa Hordika Seal. This would help explain her actions if I'm right that a different Toa of the same element could be used to unlock it. Or, I guess, you're theorizing that Artakha may have believed it so, even though it wasn't so, therefore likewise maybe Roodaka believed the Seal might change as the Hordika changed. I dunno.Anywho, your core theory, even the main part I disagree with (that the Seal changed when they became Nuva) is very plausible and well-thought-out and suchnot, so here is that recognition. :)

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#8 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 26 2012 - 03:34 PM

By "they" did Greg mean the Toa Nuva? Not the Cube & Symbols I presume? :P

Yes, I'm pretty sure he meant the Nuva themselves. I mean, Artakha made the Symbols/Cube first-hand, so he knows they can exist. :PI suppose a better way to put it would be that Artakha knew the Symbols/Cube had the potential to be relevant.

That's a good point, but then what if, say, the Nuva had awoken Mata Nui but not realized they were supposed to free the Bahrag, and Mata Nui says "Me face be dirty yo yo!" and they head off to free them, but one of them dies on the way? Would it not be wise for it to be possible to find another Toa of the same element?Of course, now there's the Red Star for such things... or there was... and the Bahrag weren't supposed to need caged, but yeah.Besides, the difficulty for Roodaka was in painfully cutting out a piece of the cage and encouraging the Toa to shoot at her. Once she did that, does it really matter which Toa she gets to shoot at her? She's unlikely to coerce any Toa into willingly freeing Makuta, so this same basic strategy I think would be needed anyways, and likely she would want to use the Visorak so she's not going up against Toa by herself... so why not use this attack on the same six Toa, who have a clear motive for opposing her personally? They didn't know attacking her would free Makuta.So I don't think that would be a major problem for canon consistency. And if it had to be the same Toa, why would it not be simply stated as such?

I imagine Mata Nui would have had some trouble awakening, then, if the island hadn't been cleared (though as you said, that was supposed to happen on-schedule and the only reason the Bahrag ended up caged in the first place is because Teridax woke them up prematurely, so when you think about it, the Bahrag Seal wasn't even supposed to exist and the Toa Mata probably would have transformed via some other method), even though on a tangential note, I really don't see how breaking through the island would be any sort of obstacle for Mata Nui, cleansed or otherwise...I mean, he's gigantic...but I forgive that bit because of Bionicle physics. :)Anyway, I suppose you're right about Roodaka. Although thinking back on it, now I'm not even sure how I feel about the "evolving" Toa Seal bit.

But that was basically a seventh element, or maybe a non-elemental use of electricity, added beyond the six that actually made the protocage. I think the substance of the cage is not determined by the elements that are used to make it; the Inika thing is just like if something touches a live wire it will get a charge in it; the thing in this case happens to be a cage they just made.But again this need not affect your theory, just analyzing as I go. :)

I believe it was non-elemental but you have a point. I may go back and revise some bits and pieces of this idea, because now that I think about it, I'm not sure there's enough to back up the "evolving Seal" part. It's actually the more presumptuous part of this theory.

So my guess is that where this is headed is that the Cube translates Nuva power into a merged Mata beam? *reads on*

No, but that is a good alternative to this theory. :)

Where is the bit about the materials from? I didn't see it on the Mata page on BS01. Couldn't that just refer to protodermis? They provided the entire protodermis of the whole MU/giant robot.

I'm not sure where I read it, I just know that it's been ingrained in my head for a while. I'll try and find the source. Protodermis probably made up a large quantity of the "materials," but I assume that the Toa Mata's spirits and whatever it is the people in the MU use to imbue something with Elemental Power and also Toa Power were provided as well.

However, I think everything else in this part makes sense. I might add my cyberclay theory would make explaining that easy; Artakha could read the equivalent of DNA in the coding of the protodermis particles. Or, a non-cyber, molecular system in protodermis may explain it, or something in their brains, or something in Mata Nui's brain, etc. all of which it's possible Artakha could gain access to, or be given it.

Cyberclay theory? I'm unfamiliar; I'll have to look into that. :)

Or, he may simply extrapolate from what happened if he experimented by dipping various things in Energized Protodermis, and found that dipping masks in producing Kanohi Nuva, and understood their physics and requirement of Toa Nuva. :shrugs:

I suppose he could do that, although he does have the Mask of Creation which can save a lot of time that would otherwise be spent on trial and error.

Just to be clear, I agree this is plausible -- not because the actual elements involved matter IMO (so if one was a Toa of Iron, it wouldn't make a difference in the actual substance), but a universal difference -- like being a Nuva or an Inika -- may still matter.

I considered something similar to that at first, but I couldn't really think of a way to rationalize the idea that all of the Mata, all of the Hagah, all of the Inika and so on are inherently different from one another as well as other Toa. Though I guess I could have simply suggested that certain Toa are programmed to be a part of a certain team, while others are programmed to be solo, OR I could have theorized that Toa Power is different between each Toa; however, each of the Metru's Toa Power came from Lhikan, the Inika's from the Red Star(?), the Mata's (presumably) from Artakha and so on, thus explaining why one Seal would depend on which Team they were from. Yeah, definitely gonna do a 2.0 of this theory when I have more time on my hands.

Ah, I see, you're not going where I thought you were. This is actually the running theory I have had and have posted. I thought where you were headed was that the nature of the Toa only when they made it matters, so it would be a Mata Seal, and they are Toa Nuva, so the cube would translate their Nuva power to a Mata beam.

As I said, that's a great alternative, though I'm not surprised I didn't think of it. :P

So, you're not necessarily saying this happened, but that Artakha wasn't sure if it would happen? Also I'm still confused because I thought you were saying the Seal transformed when they did, so it's not just a Mata Seal but a Nuva Seal. Here you say Mata Seal... Hm...

Sorry for the confusion, I was worried that my throwing around terms like "Mata Seal" and "Nuva Seal" would get a little crisscrossed.At the time I was saying that the Mata Seal had, in fact, evolved into a Nuva Seal, but after re-reading my theory I realize that this particular tenet is unnecessary--the only things that are integral to this theory are the ideas that the specific Toa who create a Seal are the only ones that can break it, that a Toa's Elemental powers can only be a part of one Seal at a time, and that the Nuva Cube is intended as a contingency device to be used should one or more of the Nuva be unable to contribute to the creation/destruction of a Seal.

So are you proposing that one group of six Toa can only have one existing protocage at a time? If they trap the Bahrag, and then go out and need to trap some other villain, the second trap would fail?Eh... I don't see why it would be a problem for there to be however many protocages they need to make. The one the freeing beam is shot at -- and the one the Nuva cube is in front of -- is the one that is freed.

This was more or less intended to resolve a hypothetical scenario, that being "what happens if the Toa Nuva have two active Toa Seals and then someone places the Symbols onto the Cube; does only one Seal break or do both?" Personally, I like the idea of a One Seal Limit because I think of it like this:1) Artakha creates the Symbols in order to serve as storage space for the Nuva's enhanced Elemental Powers should the turn into Toa Nuva.2) Knowing that Toa also have the ability to create a Toa Seal, Artakha creates one Nuva Cube that will correspond to whatever Nuva-created Seal is active at a given moment (assuming that there can only be one Seal at a time).3) When Artakha senses that the Toa Mata have transformed into the Toa Nuva, he teleports the Symbols and the Cube to the Nuva's location (or, alternatively, he keyed the Symbols/Cube in to the Mata's Elemental Powers and gave the objects the ability to detect when the Toa had transformed, which would mean that the objects had become relevant. One could even suggest that since the Toa Nuva may not have been destined to transform in conjunction with their creation of a Toa Seal, then the Cube wouldn't have teleported along with the Symbols in such a scenario because it wasn't relevant yet. But that's another theory for another day, I guess. :P )

Now despite all my quibbling, I think this part of your theory is a brilliant point, and enough that it deserves some recognition. :)However, I think you've got the reason for the failsafe backwards -- I don't think anything that happens to the Toa who makes the Seal after it's made affects it; I think the cage remained a Mata Seal, and Artakha wasn't certain that Nuva would be able to unlock a Mata Seal.Or to put it into non-personal terms, since I'm pretty sure any Toa of the same element would suffice, I think the cage remained a Toa Seal (did not become a Toa Nuva Seal). So the cube would translate the Toa Nuva power to Toa power, just in case it wouldn't work. However, it did work, and proved unnecessary -- but the Kal took advantage of it anyways.

Thank you, although now I kinda like your idea better anyways. However, I suppose that the two failsafe ideas aren't mutually-exclusive; Artakha may very well have built the Cube just in case the Nuva's power wouldn't work AND just in case one of them happened to be missing.

If you're right that Seals can change types if the Toa who made them change types, then this could provide another reason for Roodaka to need the Hordika's power. When they were turned to Hordika, the Toa Seal could turn into a Toa Hordika Seal. This would help explain her actions if I'm right that a different Toa of the same element could be used to unlock it. Or, I guess, you're theorizing that Artakha may have believed it so, even though it wasn't so, therefore likewise maybe Roodaka believed the Seal might change as the Hordika changed. I dunno.

That would help explain it, but I think I've pretty thoroughly abandoned the "evolving Seal" idea by now. Oh well. :P

Anywho, your core theory, even the main part I disagree with (that the Seal changed when they became Nuva) is very plausible and well-thought-out and suchnot, so here is that recognition. :)

Wow, awesome! Now I can have unlimited access to Nongu, whatever that means. :D

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#9 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 27 2012 - 03:08 PM

I really don't see how breaking through the island would be any sort of obstacle for Mata Nui, cleansed or otherwise...I mean, he's gigantic...but I forgive that bit because of Bionicle physics. :)

You're gigantic compared to handcuffs -- even more than Mata Nui compared to the island -- yet if you wanted to try to break out of cuffs by merely pulling your hands apart, wouldn't you prefer a chain and cuffloops that had been greatly weakened so the slightest force would break them?That's what cleaning was largely for, as well as probably to reduce the weight of it into acceptable tolerance levels. This is a system the GBs designed, and they would know what limits the robot had that would require it. :)

Cyberclay theory? I'm unfamiliar; I'll have to look into that

Basically that protodermis molecules act like computer-coded nanites that project powerful energy fields which mimic programmed physics, to explain all the known matter-mimicing and power-generating properties of it. Clay that is controlled by computer code, as it were.

At the time I was saying that the Mata Seal had, in fact, evolved into a Nuva Seal, but after re-reading my theory I realize that this particular tenet is unnecessary--the only things that are integral to this theory are the ideas that the specific Toa who create a Seal are the only ones that can break it, that a Toa's Elemental powers can only be a part of one Seal at a time, and that the Nuva Cube is intended as a contingency device to be used should one or more of the Nuva be unable to contribute to the creation/destruction of a Seal.

Alright. But I still say that first part also isn't necessary. Lemme see if I can clearly explain the version of the theory I am seeing as fitting canon.There is no rule about the identities of the Toa, or Toa teams that is ever relevant.However, Artakha knew that after the six normal Toa who were in the team labeled "Toa Mata" would (or could :P) make a protocage around the Bahrag (with a Normal Toa Seal), they might become Toa Nuva -- both in type of Toa, and that would simply be used as their team label too (this distinction is important).The key here is not that they are a different team of Toa than those who made the cage, but that (he was afraid) the nature of their elemental power would change to be incompatible with the Normal Toa Seal.Hypothetically, he would be aware that any other Toa Nuva (by type of Toa) with the same element could replace one of the Toa Nuva (by team name), but there are no other Nuva (by type or team).So the need to make the cube remains even if there is no rule about identities or teams. See what I mean?Also, I stand by that there's no need for a rule of "only one protocage at a time." I believe that had the cube been used, it would have sent out a beam of fused elemental energy at the cage (that was nearest to it, being the Bahrag's). So they should be able to make as many protocages as they need to.The rest of what you just said in this quote would proceed from there. The contingency would be for three possibilities -- if the Nuva later tried to free the Bahrag and failed because their elements had changed, if any of the Nuva died, or if any went rogue. And the Kal basically saw #3 as the case.And of course, it turns out that his fear was unfounded; that the contingency was unnecessary (and since it opened up the risk of Kal, only caused trouble). But that's hindsight.That make sense?It's worth noting, though, that if they DID make a second protocage as Toa Nuva, and if Artakha's fear about there being a different in the powers between normal Toa and Toa Nuva was true, AND if one of the Nuva died, then maybe the cube could also be taken near this second protocage and send out a beam from the symbols being placed on it. He could program it to adapt the beam to any actual change in the Nuva's powers so the cube could send out either a Normal beam or a Nuva beam depending on the type of cage it detects. This is a lot more dubious though as the cube would have to be able to sense those unforeseen differences. Since we know they didn't actually exist, Artakha could not have programmed ahead for them.But assuming all of that was true, then the Nuva could make as many other cages as they want, and the cube could be used to unlock any of them.This gets really complicated, doesn't it? :lol:

This was more or less intended to resolve a hypothetical scenario, that being "what happens if the Toa Nuva have two active Toa Seals and then someone places the Symbols onto the Cube; does only one Seal break or do both?"

See above. Given that the cube appeared right next to the cage, rather than at some easily findable place like Kini-Nui or whatnot, and just thinking logically as a designer like Arty would, the easy answer is that it only opens the cage it's closest to, with a beam just like the beam the Nuva later did use to open the Bahrag's seal.Basically, we know sending fused elemental energy at the cage is what unlocks them. We have no evidence that any other method works, nor that long range is possible. Even with Roodaka, long range only worked because she had a piece of the cage with her, and it was hit by all six elements. The cube does not have a piece of that cage in it; that cage wasn't made when the cube was made. Therefore, the cube shoots a beam of elemental energy at the cage it's in range of. IMO. :PNow I admit that if you put it exactly between two cages, you might have a problem. I imagine then intent of those setting them free would come into play, as countless powers work that way in Bionicle. They would mentally choose which one.Or just move it so it's closer to one than the other lol.OR we could just say Artakha wanted the Kal to test the Toa and didn't care about any of this complex stuff. :shrugs: But I do think something along these lines makes more sense as there's no real evidence he had that level of detailed knowledge of what was happening, or would happen. (And what wouldn't happen; testing involving the Vahi and all that is highly risky, heh.)

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#10 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 27 2012 - 10:53 PM

You're gigantic compared to handcuffs -- even more than Mata Nui compared to the island -- yet if you wanted to try to break out of cuffs by merely pulling your hands apart, wouldn't you prefer a chain and cuffloops that had been greatly weakened so the slightest force would break them?That's what cleaning was largely for, as well as probably to reduce the weight of it into acceptable tolerance levels. This is a system the GBs designed, and they would know what limits the robot had that would require it. :)

Hmm...good point...

Basically that protodermis molecules act like computer-coded nanites that project powerful energy fields which mimic programmed physics, to explain all the known matter-mimicing and power-generating properties of it. Clay that is controlled by computer code, as it were.

Oh, heck, that's awesome! I really like that idea. :D

Alright. But I still say that first part also isn't necessary. Lemme see if I can clearly explain the version of the theory I am seeing as fitting canon.There is no rule about the identities of the Toa, or Toa teams that is ever relevant.However, Artakha knew that after the six normal Toa who were in the team labeled "Toa Mata" would (or could :P) make a protocage around the Bahrag (with a Normal Toa Seal), they might become Toa Nuva -- both in type of Toa, and that would simply be used as their team label too (this distinction is important).

I agree, the first part is unnecessary.So you're saying that the Toa Nuva are kinda like a subspecies of Toa?

The key here is not that they are a different team of Toa than those who made the cage, but that (he was afraid) the nature of their elemental power would change to be incompatible with the Normal Toa Seal.Hypothetically, he would be aware that any other Toa Nuva (by type of Toa) with the same element could replace one of the Toa Nuva (by team name), but there are no other Nuva (by type or team).So the need to make the cube remains even if there is no rule about identities or teams. See what I mean?

Ahh, yes, I see. And I think you're probably right. The fact that the Mata underwent a change is reason enough to create a failsafe; their change would be unpredictable.

The rest of what you just said in this quote would proceed from there. The contingency would be for three possibilities -- if the Nuva later tried to free the Bahrag and failed because their elements had changed, if any of the Nuva died, or if any went rogue. And the Kal basically saw #3 as the case.And of course, it turns out that his fear was unfounded; that the contingency was unnecessary (and since it opened up the risk of Kal, only caused trouble). But that's hindsight.That make sense?

Yes, it does make sense. I actually really prefer this "refined" theory. :)

It's worth noting, though, that if they DID make a second protocage as Toa Nuva, and if Artakha's fear about there being a different in the powers between normal Toa and Toa Nuva was true, AND if one of the Nuva died, then maybe the cube could also be taken near this second protocage and send out a beam from the symbols being placed on it. He could program it to adapt the beam to any actual change in the Nuva's powers so the cube could send out either a Normal beam or a Nuva beam depending on the type of cage it detects. This is a lot more dubious though as the cube would have to be able to sense those unforeseen differences. Since we know they didn't actually exist, Artakha could not have programmed ahead for them.

True; like I said, I've pretty firmly changed my mind about the "evolving Seal" idea. :P

See above. Given that the cube appeared right next to the cage, rather than at some easily findable place like Kini-Nui or whatnot, and just thinking logically as a designer like Arty would, the easy answer is that it only opens the cage it's closest to, with a beam just like the beam the Nuva later did use to open the Bahrag's seal.Basically, we know sending fused elemental energy at the cage is what unlocks them. We have no evidence that any other method works, nor that long range is possible. Even with Roodaka, long range only worked because she had a piece of the cage with her, and it was hit by all six elements. The cube does not have a piece of that cage in it; that cage wasn't made when the cube was made. Therefore, the cube shoots a beam of elemental energy at the cage it's in range of. IMO. :P

I'm still not sure why the distance thing didn't occur to me; it's a much simpler explanation.

OR we could just say Artakha wanted the Kal to test the Toa and didn't care about any of this complex stuff. :shrugs: But I do think something along these lines makes more sense as there's no real evidence he had that level of detailed knowledge of what was happening, or would happen. (And what wouldn't happen; testing involving the Vahi and all that is highly risky, heh.)

Yeah, I doubt Artakha designed it as a test. But how aware would you say he was in regards to the Toa's encounter with the Bahrag? He teleported the Cube to their exact location; do you think he was watching it telepathically, or maybe he had some means of detecting the Toa's transformation, or something else?

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#11 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 28 2012 - 12:08 AM

So you're saying that the Toa Nuva are kinda like a subspecies of Toa?

Yes. (Which is canon, BTW.) It may be that no other Toa could ever have a destiny to join them in that species -- that we don't know, but we do know they are different.

But how aware would you say he was in regards to the Toa's encounter with the Bahrag? He teleported the Cube to their exact location; do you think he was watching it telepathically, or maybe he had some means of detecting the Toa's transformation, or something else?

I think he just had some kind of a basic sensor set up by the Order to detect protocaging Bahrag and Nuva-ization, tied in with their Suva (which have teleportation power of course) in the case of the Symbols. Since he made these things ahead of time, thus was aware of the possibility, he could also make such a sensor system to send them, without him personally being aware of the details at all.Likewise the 'hidden' Kanohi Nuva could have been tied into the Suva and set to appear at locations Order scouts had already chosen ahead of time based purely on a sensor tripping all of this as a chain reaction in a machine somewhere.If my cyberclay theory is right, and my later destiny code add-on theory (that all particles of protodermis run an internet that constantly detects events, adapting destiny's methods to new choices) too, and if Artakha has a way to read that system, he could know any amount of information above that.I would lean towards only detecting certain readouts on decisions the destinies make like "Toa Mata to become Toa Nuva" and then later "Achieved" for that one. Reading achieved would tell him it was time to send out all this Nuva-related stuff. If at the same moment the destiny "Bahrag to command Bohrok until they clean the island" got a change to "currently thwarted" he could realize that the Mata were Nuva-ized due to the pool of EP (or tubes of EP, whatever it is) by the Bahrag, and put two and two together from there.Now it's true the Bahrag later made Kal as a contingency and they had a destiny to free them if this happened, and we've already concluded, I think, that Artakha was unlikely to play along with the Kal just to test the Toa. But it's possible he didn't know of the Kal and was just relying on the idea that the Nuva would later evacuate the island and free the Bahrag. There would be billions of destinies so you'd likely have to actually look each one up by name. He may not have thought of that.Although it occurs to me just now that if he did know of the Kal and their destiny, he would realize that the Nuva have just been made instantly powerless so they need the symbols, and that whole system may have been set up already as an all-at-once system, so he may have had to send the cube in order to send the symbols. Banking on the Nuva to outsmart the Kal. That would explain a lot...It's still all really complicated. I think we must admit that this seems to be one of the hardest parts of the story to explain with any easy answer that accounts for all the major details. But your theory has definitely given us some new lines of thought that could simplify it a bit from the mess it was before lol.

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#12 Offline XyzTheDay!

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Posted Sep 28 2012 - 12:49 AM

It's still all really complicated. I think we must admit that this seems to be one of the hardest parts of the story to explain with any easy answer that accounts for all the major details. But your theory has definitely given us some new lines of thought that could simplify it a bit from the mess it was before lol.

Your explanation about the Suvas makes a lot of sense, and I'll take that last bit as a compliment, but you'd better brace yourself, because I think it just got a bit more messy. I was looking through the old Official Greg Quotes thread just now and I found an old quote I got from Greg:

6) I had a question about the Nuva Cube. Normally, Toa Seals can only be broken by the Toa who created it. But the Bohrok-Kal intended to use the Nuva Symbols to free the Bahrag. Now, this makes sense because the Symbols are what contain the Nuva's elemental powers. But could ANY Toa Nuva-created Toa seal be broken in this manner?

6) No

Also, there was another quote in which Greg said he wasn't even sure the Nuva Cube could be moved from the Nest, so... I've got no clue anymore.I might just have to disregard the above from my personal headcanon. I kinda like your version of my theory best. :P

Edited by XyzTheDay!, Sep 28 2012 - 12:49 AM.

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#13 Offline bonesiii

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Posted Sep 28 2012 - 12:32 PM

Maybe we should just say "The Nuva cube is Bionicle's proverbial Rubik's cube. The practically unsolvable mystery, by design." :lol:Though, is it possible the other quote you alluded to explains this one? That it couldn't work on any other cage because it can't be moved?Or maybe it specifically senses Bahrag and shoots a freeing beam at them. :shrugs:
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#14 Offline Toa Nidhiki05

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Posted Sep 28 2012 - 07:57 PM

Maybe we should just say "The Nuva cube is Bionicle's proverbial Rubik's cube. The practically unsolvable mystery, by design." :lol:Though, is it possible the other quote you alluded to explains this one? That it couldn't work on any other cage because it can't be moved?Or maybe it specifically senses Bahrag and shoots a freeing beam at them. :shrugs:

Yeah, that seems like the most reasonable option. The Bohrok-Kal saga defies all logical explanation, really. :PI wonder, however, could the Nuva Cube actually create a Toa Seal? I know this doesn't really solve anything, but if it can release enough power to destroy one, couldn't it create one? Or does it only work in coordination with the Krana Xa-Kal's function of re-awakening the Bahrag?-TN05

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