Very well put. I wish I could say I always follow these principles, but even so I always at least TRY to put myself in another person's frame of mind if I end up in a debate with them, no matter how averse I am to the opinions they're trying to express.

If you're ever in a debate with me and I start acting childish or whatnot don't hesitate to call me out on it.

It depends what the subject is. If people are completely ignorant and hold intolerant views which don't meet standard levels of human decency, then don't show them any respect whatsoever. Showing respect to such attitudes just allows them to grow and spread. Respect only those opinions which show respect in themselves.

Buuut if the topic is why you like one TV show over another or something then yeah, show respect.

Everyone deserves respect. Period.

However, if what you're saying is totally insane, you persist in your insanity despite my carefully reasoned arguments, and no amount of logic will convince you, I reserve the right to leave the debate (or not to enter it in the first place). People cannot be controlled.

However, I'm open to the fact that I could be wrong too, and frequently reevaluate my positions in debates based on information the other person gives me, check it against reliable sources etc.

Everyone deserves respect. Period.

No. Not true. When someone supports a perspective that dehumanizes, oppresses, or outright opposes the very existence of a group, they don't deserve even the barest modicum of respect.

Yeah, I think 'Everyone deserves respect' and 'I'm entitled to my opinion' are two of the highest misconceptions when it comes to this kind of stuff. Neither are remotely true. I mean, in the first moment of discussion - as a start point - then yeah, but once you begin speaking its possible to lose that initial respect and lose the entitlement to your opinion depending on what you say. Demonstrate a lack of any factual basis and BOOM your entitlement to that opinion is gone, and prove yourself to be a horrible human being and BOOM that respect is gone. Let's stop perpetuating all this hippy nonsense, it gets us nowhere and maintains idiots' positions in society.

 

Everyone deserves respect. Period.

No. Not true. When someone supports a perspective that dehumanizes, oppresses, or outright opposes the very existence of a group, they don't deserve even the barest modicum of respect.

 

It depends what the subject is. If people are completely ignorant and hold intolerant views which don't meet standard levels of human decency, then don't show them any respect whatsoever. Showing respect to such attitudes just allows them to grow and spread. Respect only those opinions which show respect in themselves.

 

Buuut if the topic is why you like one TV show over another or something then yeah, show respect.

I agree but also disagree with these. On the one hand, that kind of opinion doesn't even deserve an intelligent response in the first place, let alone a respectful one.

However at the same time, I feel like if you come from a perspective counter to that person's, then demonize them, disrespect, and insult them because of it, then all it will do is reinforce their negative feelings about people that believe X or happen to have Y trait or whatever else. It may be hateful and insane to you, me, and any rational person, but to them, it's just the reality of the situation and telling it like it is.

They don't view someone getting angry with them over it as "Gee, maybe I should stop hating _____ people because people said I was wrong", they'll view it as you being unreasonable and attacking them for doing nothing wrong. It's the same way that when you were a six year old and got scolded for sneaking into the pantry to get a snack, it wasn't your fault for being up past bedtime to get sweets, it was your mom's fault for being unreasonable about bedtime and not giving you a big enough dessert. You didn't feel bad that you broke the rules, you felt bad that you were getting scolded.

Now again, the person with these views is indeed in the wrong, but you have to look at it from their perspective. They genuinely believe what they're saying. Nobody likes being talked down to, especially when, as far as they can tell, they're not doing anything out of line, so disrespecting them is just going to make them less willing to believe what you're telling them, and probably make them more ardent with what they're saying that's wrong. As messed-up and out-there as they may be, it just makes them more messed-up and out-there.

As maddening as it is to deal with someone who holds messed-up, bigoted views, killing with kindness is the most effective way, at least in my experience, of changing someone's opinion or belief. For example, this video of Frank Meeink, a former neo-nazi. What changed him wasn't being punished for his actions or his beliefs by being sent to prison, it was the black people he met in prison that treated him like normal in spite of his entire doctrine being about dehumanizing them. It wasn't the people who refused to employ or deal with him, it was the Jewish shopkeeper who didn't just treat him reasonably, he went out of his way to help him, in spite of his entire doctrine being about dehumanizing him.

Telling someone they're wrong only makes them believe they're right. You have to prove someone wrong, and to do that you have to be willing to put aside that what they're saying is horrible and vitriolic. If you return their anger with more anger, all it will do is make them angry right back. You have to be able to set that aside and break the circle.

Wow that was a lot longer than I thought it'd be. In case it doesn't show, this is something I care a lot about

Everyone deserves respect. Period.

Yes and no.

To people who would full on believe that discriminating, insulting and degrading and oppressing other groups of human beings and care not for how this treatment affects those people, they deserve no respect from me. If all that person wants to do is spit out hurtful, potentially violent and in some cases life-threatening rhetoric: no.

On the other hand, if someone makes an ignorant comment (this is just -me- and -my- position), I'll tell them and if they genuinely made it by mistake and want to know more about the subject as to avoid making the same mistake in the future, I'll respectfully send them appropriate links to appropriate places (and if I lack any, I'll ask friends who may have some I could send).

Difference here is that one person is a disrespecting face-shirt through and through, whereas the other one has some bit of human decency where they realize "hey, I said a totally non-cool thing, I should learn more so I don't act like a face-shirt or become one."

Of course on debates and the like of things like, "what's your favorite TV Show?" or "Which is better, blue or yellow?" Then -of course- it's better to act and treat everyone with decency. (Someone doesn't like NGE? Totally rad, though I like it I'm not gonna go all "omg how can you not you rotten tomato holy scrumptious cupcakes" though I've had a lot of really cool and fun discussions of anime, manga, books, novels, and the characters, stories, overarching themes and meanings and interpretations between someone who likes one I don't, or between someone who dislikes one I like.

Actually, I'd like to stay out of this.

I tend to hold the stance that if you're debating against someone who doesn't deserve your respect for whatever reasons, dialogue has probably broken down by that point and it's going come to blows pretty quickly. Alas we have no way to punch each other over the internet so instead these things just sorta devolve from there and it becomes one giant spitting circle until someone with authority acts.

But if things haven't degenerated yet and there's still chance for rational speaking, then no need to be rude about it. You're rude when there isn't a chance left and by that point they really have waived their right to complain.

If you find yourself debating with someone who you believe does not deserve any respect, then it is not a debate. It's a shouting match, and you have two options.

1. You can continue in the shouting match, because you enjoy them and this one looks like it's going to be big.

2. You can decide not to continue in the shouting match, because you don't enjoy them and have better things to do, really.

Now, yes, if you bow out and get back to making sandcastles or whatever it is kids do these days, the other person might walk away thinking that they've won. This is okay. Some people walk around thinking the world is flat, or has been around for somewhat less time than agriculture. If I don't hunt down every member of the Flat Earth Society and convince them that they're wrong, why should I bother with someone who believes they emerged victorious from a complete waste of time because they wasted more time than the other person?

I find it amusing that the people who are advocating that everyone deserves respect and that there is no way to argue with someone you don't respect are, from my understanding, people who do not come from backgrounds where their rights are not up for debate, nor are their very existences considered something to argue about the reality of, nor where they society they are born into plagues them with a set of unattainable standards and impossible restrictions designed to oppress them based on race and sex.

I find it amusing that some people are so very skilled at missing the point.

I find it amusing that some people are so very skilled at missing the point.

In the future, when you take issue with my statements, don't mock my phrasing in an attempt to be snide and cool and "Hey look this guy's not staying on topic look at me for being witty when I point this out guys!" Just tell me why you disagree, okay? Thanks buddy.

When you extend that respect to others, we'll see about that.

Feeling oppressed is not in an open invite to, y'know, become what you're fighting against.

Funny how you know so much about everyone's lives, Xaeraz. I might ask, politely, that you watch your assumptions.

When you extend that respect to others, we'll see about that.

 

Feeling oppressed is not in an open invite to, y'know, become what you're fighting against.

People who are oppressed cannot become what they're fighting against, due to the aforementioned oppression keeping them from equal societal advancement and treatment. And sometimes, the anger at the existing power structure bubbles over and comes out as someone being not quite the most erudite and rational person, most of all when arguing about things that are a direct result of the power structure.

Sadly, you've made your views quite clear in the past, so I don't hold much hope for this going anywhere. If you want to continue talking about it, please, send me a PM, but let's leave this entry for what it was originally intended for.

Well, I for one, shall respond in public. Up to you to respond or not. And because you're not the only one who needs to hear this.

What my horrible view that people deserve some basic respect and that shouting at everyone about oppression isn't going to, in fact, change their minds? At all?

All for equal rights. It's just the way some people are fighting for it counterproductive and irrational at best. I don't care what you feel is right, I care about what gets results-and your way, from where I stand, has only silenced discussion on the matter and made no progress otherwise, you'll only get people who agree with you, which as a point of fact, this way of debating if it even deserves the name, has proven it can't do. I was here close to the start of this whole cycle and I've seen people who hold the same views alienated because *gasp* they don't conform 100% to the popular thoughtstream or even, heaven forbid say it the wrong way. Anyone who speaks against you is an enemy-you've demonstrated that quite well here, for which I thank you. The unspoken assumption that I'm a bigot is just icing on the cake.

And going by your logic, every revolution ever that won the fight never went on to become horrible dictatorships.

Which uh, is not the case.

I second Ymper's comment; assuming these things can result in, ah, somewhat awkward moments down the line.

Basilisk, you're not wrong, but you are behaving in a somewhat discourteous manner. On a blog entry - that has evolved into an argument - about courtesy in debates, you may want to consider your tone.

That is a good point. Apologies for that.

Just got home from a very long day at academia, so I was not using my best judgement in that department. This is not an excuse, merely an explanation.

General apology to anyone I have offended, but I will not retract the overall gist of my statements. The blogs in BZP have become a powder keg with seemingly unlimited explosive potential. Stomping out any one opinion, no matter how vile you might consider it to be, is simply doing harm to any overall cause. There are people out there who will believe something simply to spite someone and accusations and cries of oppression don't convince people to change their opinions. It's venting, pure and simple. Venting might be emotionally healthy in same cases (pent up anger just causes health problems) but it doesn't solve anything. By implying someone does not deserve respect, you're implying that you hold yourselves above them, that you are a judge and they the judged.

That puts people on the defensive and makes them angry and if anything, hardens their resolve. These people will have friends, allies, who will go to bat for them, who they have influence over. This might induce them to vote when they otherwise might not-or vote in a different way. Having someone preach at you and call you a horrible person tends to cause that reaction as a point of fact. I am far from free of guilt in this department, as Ymper has demonstrated. For that I am truly sorry, but my point, I think stands. The current way buisness in the blogs is conducted in fact, does more harm to the causes some here hold dear. However good and right something feels, one has to look at it coldly, without passion. One has to have sources, proof, not appeals to morality and ethics. An arguement beyond "I'm being oppressed and that's horrible."

If we make this about who is oppressed more, then there are entire continents that have us beat in that department.

Bit off on that last paragraph - ethics can be derived logically, and are, anyway, rather hard to leave out of this sort of thing. Appeals to emotion are a bit useless in a debate, but a soundly supported argument rooted in an ethical system that is logical and self-consistent is quite alright.

Well yes, evidence is useless on it's own. That was really bad wording on my part.

I just want to say that discussion was awesome guys. Miss when there could be multi-page discussions in a blog on a regular basis.

 

Everyone deserves respect. Period.

No. Not true. When someone supports a perspective that dehumanizes, oppresses, or outright opposes the very existence of a group, they don't deserve even the barest modicum of respect.

 

Then you should keep your big mouth shut. Dehumanizing, oppressive, and nasty people will continue to exist, and opening your mouth won't change them zip.

People who are like that feed off attention. They love to voice their stupidity in order to attract attention, even when that attention is another irate person they've ticked off. When people stop telling them off, they will learn that saying stupid things doesn't get them attention anymore, and they will shut up.

If you don't respect them, then they don't deserve your time or attention. Spend time with people who don't treat you like gum stuck on the sidewalk, and you will not be treated like that anymore by anyone.

And I don't appreciate being told that everyone who says that "everyone deserves respect" has never been oppressed. I have been oppressed for who I am, my interests, my career choices, even liking Bionicle, of all things. Does that give me the right to yell and inflict torture and punishment on those who have oppressed me? No - because doing so is allowing them to affect me, to make me grouchy and depressed, and to take away my ability to pursue and work for the things that I can about. They don't deserve to take up my time, even if it's 30 seconds to tell them off, much less cause me emotional pain - I don't have to let them. Forgive and move on.

Keep going. Walk on, stand tall, and be confident in who you are. Until you are proven wrong, then learn from it, accept what is right, and keep going.

I want to say that no matter how civilized, polite and upright anyone thinks it is to show respect unconditionally, I will still deck the person who tells me my friend(s) deserve to live a life of abuse and poverty and deserve little more than being killed, that they're a menace, or they're broken, or messed up in some imaginary manner, or that they deserved being hurt, attacked, or deserve to be attacked, harassed or thrown through a traumatic experience.

Their position means absolutely nothing to me, granted they'd rather harm people I care about and are debating from a position of making it -legal- to harm people I care about. That's not a valid position. It's not a respectable one. It's a sick, disgusting, twisted one and whoever treats it like an actual, valid position and respects it is doing more harm by perpetuating the idea that thinking this way is "okay" and "valid" and is worthy for intellectual discussion and debate (albeit, less of the "intellectual" part).

If you respect every single person with such a venomous position: they won't listen to anything you say (re: vast vast vast majority of these debates I've had) and any points you make and evidence you bring forth will be ignored and they'll feel more validated by having that opinion because someone listened to it.

So, if someone presents stuff like that to me I'll simply tell them that it's a disgusting, rotten opinion not worthy of debate because the content is so cruel and pathetic that it's not worth entertaining as a basic idea in the first place. Because there is no debate when the idea is to treat people like sub-humans and I will not respect the position, nor the person if they really think it's a valid idea.